JOINT MEETING HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE March 22, 1999 5:05 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bill Hudson, Chairman Representative Fred Dyson Representative Carl Morgan Representative Mary Kapsner Representative Harold Smalley Representative Andrew Halcro, Co-Chairman Representative Lisa Murkowski Representative Reggie Joule MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Jim Whitaker Representative John Harris Representative Albert Kookesh OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Alan Austerman Representative Carl Moses COMMITTEE CALENDAR OVERSIGHT HEARING: WESTERN ALASKA FISHERIES DISASTER WITNESS REGISTER PAT POLAND, Director Division of Municipal and Regional Assistance Department of Community and Regional Affairs 333 West Fourth Avenue, Suite 220 Anchorage, Alaska 99501-2341 Telephone: (907) 269-4580 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Western Alaska fisheries disaster. CAROL CARROLL, Director Administrative Services Division Department of Military and Veterans Affairs 400 Willoughby Avenue, Suite 500 Juneau, Alaska 99811 Telephone: (907) 465-4730 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Western Alaska fisheries disaster. DIANA ALCANTRA, Recovery Manager Division of Emergency Services Department of Military and Veterans Affairs P.O. Box 5750 Fort Richardson, Alaska 99505-5750 Telephone: (907) 428-7000 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Western Alaska fisheries disaster. DOUG EGGERS, Chief Fisheries Scientist Division of Commercial Fisheries Management and Development Alaska Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Telephone: (907) 465-6117 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Western Alaska fisheries disaster. TOM KRON, Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwin Regional Supervisor Division of Commercial Fisheries Management and Development Alaska Department of Fish and Game 333 Raspberry Road Anchorage, Alaska 99518-1599 Telephone: (907) 267-2166 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Western Alaska fisheries disaster. TAPE(S) 99-6, SIDE(S) A & B 99-7, SIDE(S) A CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON AND CO-CHAIRMAN ANDREW HALCRO called the joint meeting between the House Special Committee on Fisheries and the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee meeting to order at 5:05 p.m. Present at the call to order from the House Special Committee on Fisheries were Representatives Hudson, Dyson, Morgan and Smalley. Present at the call to order from the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee were Representatives Halcro, Morgan and Joule. Representative Murkowski arrived at 5:08 p.m. Representative Kapsner arrived at 5:09 p.m. SUMMARY OF INFORMATION PAT POLAND, Director, Division of Municipal and Regional Assistance, Department of Community and Regional Affairs (DCRA), explained the role his division played in working with communities and administering a grant program. He noted that, in July of 1997, in recognizing that the season was a disaster in Bristol Bay and the Yukon-Kuskokwin area, Governor Knowles declared a disaster that encompassed 51 communities and included 2 organized boroughs. The Department of Community and Regional Affairs was given the responsibility of coordinating state agencies in responding to the disaster, and Mr. Poland explained how the various departments and agencies were organized. He reported the state submitted a request to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to declare a national disaster for federal assistance; however, that was ultimately denied. In the fall of 1997, United States Senator Ted Stevens secured about $7 million in federal Magnuson-Stevens Fisheries Disasters Funds. This is the first time a disaster has been applied to that fund, so it was a learning experience for everyone involved. MR. POLAND explained that there was a match requirement for that federal money. Through the legislative process, it was decided that the match should come from local communities. He reported that the federal directive associated with this fund was to identify labor-intensive projects in the communities, which was accomplished in the majority of the communities. It has been a major struggle, however, for these small villages to come up with matching funds; consequently, no projects were going on in May and June of 1998. At that time, the 1998 fish disaster started to become evident. The Governor advised the legislature of their option to come into special session, and, as a function of that declaration, he was able to access disaster funds. Mr. Poland stated that a portion of those funds were used as a match for the community grants to begin projects last summer. He said, "Unfortunately, by that point we are so late into the construction season in rural Alaska that, if projects literally aren't ready and if the materials aren't sitting there, chances of getting things going again are pretty slim. So, we lost close to a second construction season." He felt that approximately 30 to 40 of the projects had some activity. MR. POLAND reported that all of the projects were articulated and ready to go by the fall of 1998, in terms of an actual grant agreement with the communities. Subsequent to that, the match was not approved by the legislature, so DCRA is again working with communities and with the federal government. He observed that DCRA is cautiously optimistic that the federal government is going to let them use expenditures the state made in support of the 1998 disaster that were not reimbursed to make up that community match. The Department of Community and Regional Affairs is also going to reprogram unused loan funds that the federal government had given them for individual loans to fishermen, and this will help meet the $1.5 million match. As a result, those projects should begin this year. MR. POLAND indicated that DCRA was involved, along with the Department of Commerce and Economic Development, with a loan program for individual fishermen. A little over $1.5 million was originally designated for that purpose, and, basically, any fisherman can get a loan for $1000 by simply applying. Approximately 500 fishermen took advantage of that opportunity, and those individuals had to dedicate their permanent fund dividend to assure payment of the loan. Mr. Poland informed the committee, "There are a couple of other relatively minor grants that were a function of that original $7 million secured by [U.S.] Senator Stevens, and that included some monies for fisheries research, a little less than $500,000, and for looking at economic alternatives out there. Those funds are being matched either by some kind of local government or by the organization which secured the grant, and those are all in place and going at the moment." CAROL CARROLL, Director, Administrative Services Division, Department of Military and Veterans Affairs (DMVA), explained her department's role in the disaster relief. She reiterated that the legislature felt that no special session was needed to be called; however, at that time, the Disaster Relief Fund was empty. A loan was obtained from the general fund by means of the supplemental process, and DMVA went out into communities to take applications for the Emergency Living Expense Program. This program gave eligible individuals living in that area payments of approximately $1,400 to be used for fuel, food, electric and other bills. MS. CARROLL provided the committee with a spreadsheet titled, "Western Alaska Fisheries Disaster", that showed exactly how the $12 million disaster relief money was spent. Approximately $8 million was spent for the Emergency Living Expense Program, and a portion was spent on fish purchase, processing and delivery for three communities (Hooper Bay, Chevak and Scammon Bay). She reported approximately 6,000 individuals applied for the Emergency Living Expense Program, and she thought roughly 5,500 were finally eligible for the grant. She summarized by stating, "We were the operational portion of this disaster. We provided the teams that went out into the areas and took the applications, and we provided the accounting and the ... operational methods for the money in the Disaster Relief Fund. We coordinated a lot with the other departments on which communities should be declared under the fisheries disaster, and I believe we relied on the Department of Fish and Game for that type of information." DIANA ALCANTRA, Recovery Manager, Division of Emergency Services, Department of Military and Veterans Affairs, testified via teleconference from Fort Richardson. The division provided credits to vendors for specific categories of assistance: food, fuel, water and sanitation. To be eligible for this assistance, she explained, an individual had to live in the area, hold a commercial license or crew permit, or be a cannery or process worker. Approximately $3 million was extended in the food category, $2.7 million in fuel, $1.8 million in electric, approximately $381,000 in water and $102,000 in sanitation. These grants have been nearly completed. The Division of Emergency Services is currently assisting DCRA in applying for a federal assistance program that will mirror the Emergency Living Expense Program. MS. CARROLL, in response to a question from Chair Hudson, confirmed that the state program was limited to state residents of the affected area; however, federal monies were available to each U.S. resident affected by the fisheries disaster in Western Alaska. She indicated that the federal program money has not yet been received; although, she believed that they have received applications for the federal portion. They also have a signed grant agreement with the United States Department of Agriculture, but they have not yet received that fund. MR. POLAND, in response to a question from Representative Kapsner, reported that the principle problem with the affected communities has been getting a financing plan solid enough to rely on, so they can start ordering materials and get things in place, and to do so in time with the rhythm of the season. What happened in 1998, he explained, was that the issue of a match did not become clear until May of 1998. The problems were largely solved by the latter part of summer, and all of the communities are primed and ready to either complete or begin a project this spring. MS. CARROLL, in response to an inquiry from Co-chairman Halcro, explained that regularly budgeted program funds are used first; however, disasters generally impact social problems, which results in increased need for funding. MR. POLAND, in response to a question from Representative Kapsner, explained that the reason only 500 people received a loan was due to a lack of applications, as literally everyone who was eligible that applied was approved. The Department of Community and Regional Affairs estimated that the $1.5 million could have been used up in its entirety by eligible applicants, had they chosen to apply. MS. CARROLL answered a question from Representative Dyson regarding what the departments have learned from this experience to be better prepared in the future. She testified that the DMVA's operational management of the disaster seemed to work amazingly well. MR. POLAND added that there was no system in place to deal with a situation like this, so people with good intentions were trying to bend definitions and make systems work in the best way they could. He said, "When you declare something in the fall in rural Alaska, there is just no way, at best, that you are going to get a construction program going before next spring. So, if your intention is really to get money into people's pockets, you probably ought to just write checks and stick them in the mail." He agreed that things worked extraordinarily well, given the constraints in place; however, fixing the definitions for clarity would improve things the next time. He reported that federal officials have actually traveled out into rural Alaska this past summer, and this has resulted in a major shift in flexibility and responsiveness since they have gotten first-hand experience. MS. CARROLL pointed out that DMVA does an "After Actions Report" after every disaster, where they get together to discuss what they could have done better and what worked well. CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO suggested that future instruction booklets include the special transportation problems that arise in rural Alaska, in an effort to facilitate the timely arrival of funds with regard to seasons. He asked for specifics regarding the efforts made to educate affected individuals about loans and grants available to them. Because seven or eight groups were dispersing disaster aid funds, his concern was that someone who might have qualified for a specific type of loan might not have known that it existed. MR. POLAND explained that letters were mailed to every permit holder, but he was uncertain about crew members and cannery workers. The Department of Community and Regional Affairs went through regional non-profit organizations to "get the word out." He felt that the lack of applications could be attributed to the fact that it was a relatively small amount of money and that the individual's permanent fund dividend had to be dedicated to repayment. REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER felt, based on communications from individuals in her district, that the problem was not a lack of education, but more of a belief that these individuals would be getting further into debt. She explained that these people have the highest poverty level in the nation, and she asked, "Why would a person, living under the poverty line, want to get into debt?" She said that most of her constituents have already dedicated their dividend funds to paying for electricity bills, buying transportation for the year, and other necessary things. She summarized by stating, "I don't think it was a lack of education. I think that they were just weighing the costs and benefits, and the costs far outweighed the benefits to get a loan." REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN pointed out that the average income for a fisherman in the Yukon river area before 1998 was $8,900; however, it dropped to $2,800 by 1998. CHAIRMAN HUDSON emphasized that it is important to measure how much money actually goes to the end recipient and how much is involved in administering the program. The goal of doing this, he advised, would be streamlining the process, in an effort to make more money available to the people who need it, as opposed to the bureaucracy or those hired to administer the disbursement. MR. POLAND, in response to a question by Representative Joule, explained that the federal dollars are on the table, and that DCRA is working with the granting agency - the U.S. Department of Commerce. It is looking hopeful that they will get credit for expenditures the state made, particularly for the Emergency Living Expense Program. The communities will be short what the match would have been, he added, but they are hoping to use the balance of the loan funds that were not used, approximately $900,000, to make up a portion of that $1.5 million. As a result, the net effect would be that the communities would have about $600,000 less for their projects, but they will have the projects. He explained that their actual entitlement was based on the number of permit holders, and the match varied from $5,000 to $8,000 to over $100,000 in places like Bethel and Dillingham. The Department of Community and Regional Affairs looked at capital match, he reported, but the process involves getting the city council to declare the new project, bringing it to the legislature, and actually having the capital match appropriated for that particular purpose. In addition, all changes have to be approved by the U.S. Department of Commerce, and, although they have tried to be very responsive, it generally takes another 10 days to 2 weeks. DOUG EGGERS, Chief Fisheries Scientist, Division of Commercial Fisheries Management and Development, Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), came forward to testify on scientific research regarding the fisheries disaster in Western Alaska. He reported that sockeye salmon runs have increased in Bristol Bay since the late 1970's, and production has been at historically high levels through 1996. Salmon runs to the Yukon River have been relatively stable, coho salmon has been increasing in the Kuskokwin River, and chum salmon stocks have been more variable in the region. Large and unanticipated declines in salmon runs occurred throughout Western Alaska rivers in 1997 and 1998. These declines may have been caused or accentuated by unusual or localized weather conditions that occurred recently in the Bering Sea. There is also indication that there may be longer-term climate changes taking place in the North Pacific Ocean and the Bering Sea that would result in lowering future salmon productions. Mr. Eggers explained that climate change cannot be prevented, but there are things that government, as stewards of the resources, can do to restore fisheries to anticipated changes in production, and to prepare those dependent on the salmon resources for those changes. The long-term resource program was proposed to address the responsiveness of the state's harvest management and stock monitoring programs to change productivity. Aspects of that responsiveness include being able to protect and manage fisheries on weak salmon runs that occur during periods of decreased productivity. The state also needs to evaluate the appropriateness of current management policies in escapement goals during the regimes of lower productivity, and improve pre-season forecasts of abundance for industry planning and establishing quotas for the South Alaska Peninsula June fisheries. MR. EGGERS noted that monies have been made available to conduct a fisheries research program and mitigate the disaster. Research money will be used by ADF&G in implementing plans to focus on salmon stocks in the Alaska Peninsula area, Bristol Bay area, Kuskokwin and Yukon rivers. He explained that key issues addressed in the plan include: understanding the fresh water production and carrying capacity of the Bear Lake and Chignik Lake systems; understanding the fresh water production of sockeye salmon in the Kvichak River system, which is the largest river system producer of sockeye salmon in Bristol Bay; investigating smolt estimates, which forecasts are based on; developing significant improvements in escapement assessment and management of Bristol Bay sockeye salmon; developing assessments of total escapement of coho and chum salmon, by age, for the Kuskokwin River system; and, finally, developing assessments of total escapement of Chinook salmon and chum salmon, by age, to the Yukon River. MR. EGGERS pointed out that the ADF&G's strategy has not been to rely on forecasts of salmon runs to manage fisheries. They have a large program to assess the abundance of salmon in season, so that they are able to detect weak runs and react accordingly to protect the potential for future productivity and escapements. The department has fairly complete assessments of escapement and recruitment return, per spawner, in all of the Bristol Bay river systems since 1956, and there have been periods of fairly poor productivity in the past that seem to be related to climate conditions in the North Pacific Ocean and Bering Sea. He reported that declines in productivity began to be noticed in Bristol Bay in the late 1980's; unfortunately, there is a fairly long lag between the time that reduced recruitment is seen and the time weak runs are manifested, as sockeye salmon live to be six years old. He summarized by stating that low escapements and low productivity produce very weak runs. MR. EGGERS, in response to questions from Representative Dyson and Chairman Hudson, defined recruitment as the production from escapement, or return per spawner. This information has been very useful in detecting the influence of ocean climate on fish productivity. He noted that there was a period of lower ocean temperatures with fairly poor salmon productions in the 1950's and 1960's, but, in the mid 1970's, ocean temperatures went up and the state entered into a period of higher activity. He emphasized that intense research and global-scale monitoring of ocean conditions is very beneficial in establishing these trends of climate; however, the Bering Sea is an area with high cloud cover, so sea surface temperatures and atmospheric pressures are the primary indicators of climate in that area. MR. EGGERS, in response to questions from Co-chairman Halcro, explained that the research they are proposing to do under the Disaster Mitigation Research Program strictly involves assessment of adult escapement and returns, and monitoring productivity, particularly of sockeye salmon, in freshwater lakes. There is also some joint research proposed with the Russians to look into the legal driftnet fishery in the Russian zone, in an effort to assess the level of interception of North American salmon, particularly of the Bristol Bay and Western Alaskan fisheries. TOM KRON, Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwin Regional Supervisor, Division of Commercial Fisheries Management and Development, Alaska Department of Fish and Game testified via teleconference from Anchorage. He stated the response teams that visited Hooper Bay, Chevak and Scammon Bay learned very interesting information from some elderly ladies in that area. These women were of child-bearing age during the 1950's, and they could remember a time "when the salmon did not come." The winter food was gone, the salmon did not come, and the seals that followed the salmon did not come. Those ladies talked about how they had lost their milk, and their babies had died. They recounted that, since that time, the salmon have always come and they have had food. He also noted that the winds were different than normal off the Yukon River mouth this past year, and that the fish did not come through there on their usual migration pattern. CHAIRMAN HUDSON wondered how information was gathered about the open ocean pressures and weather conditions, and Mr. Eggers explained that there is an active research and enforcement activity coordinated by treaty with the North Pacific Fishery Management Council. Boats in Canada, Russia and the United States actively cooperate in surveillance of illegal driftnet fisheries on the high seas. He noted that there is a lot of research activity going on currently, specifically involving the distribution, migration and feeding habits of salmon, and the federal government is supporting that research. Marked salmon released from hatcheries provide a good tool for identifying the origin of the fish in open ocean distribution, and that research is ongoing. He explained that they are trying to understand reasons for downturns of productivity, and the long-term objective is to be able to anticipate such weak returns in their management activities. MR. KRON noted a few observations of the Yukon River Chinook salmon were signs of classic environmental stress. The numbers were down considerably - the smallest Chinook salmon run, and the lowest commercial harvest on the Yukon River since statehood. In addition, the fish were smaller than average, and the heads were larger in relation to their body size. There were also concerns of internal and external health issues. He cited an internal muscular fungus as an example. There were also very high instances of lamprey bites and other multiple bites that were unhealed. The fish were not in good shape. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Kron whether he heard any of the anecdotal reports of net-marked fish, even in Area M. Mr. Kron replied that wasn't something he saw on the Yukon and Kuskokwim Rivers. Mr. Eggers noted that he has heard instances of net-marked fish, but it is difficult to differentiate [those types of marks] because they are caught with gillnets. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said that elders in the Naknek area have seen more belugas laying in the shallow waters of the Kvichak River, and asked Mr. Kron whether something like that was reported in the other rivers or estuaries. Mr. Kron replied that he saw exactly the same thing on the Yukon River. The last time a large number of marine mammals, both seals and belugas, came into the Yukon River was in 1993 when there was the chum salmon disaster. This year there were a large number of belugas and seals entering the Yukon River and he has heard similar reports for the Kuskokwim River. It seemed that the seals were having a tough time and were following the salmon right up into the rivers. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Kron whether he may infer that belugas collecting and feeding is the result of the crash rather than a cause of it. Mr. Kron replied there is some of both. The locals indicated that the marine mammals were following the fish to find dinner. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said a few years ago the Alaska Department of Fish and Game harvested belugas and found hundreds of smolt. He asked Mr. Kron whether it's his understanding that belugas feed on mature salmon and not smolt. Mr. Kron replied it is his understanding that they feed on both adults and smolts. Mr. Eggers replied there could be an increased aggregation of beluga whales. The National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) and others have been monitoring the population of belugas and found that they have been fairly stable in Western Alaska. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN noted Mary C. Pete [Director, Division of Subsistence, Department of Fish and Game] indicated that everybody met their subsistence needs in the Kuskokwim area which is primarily from king salmon. The target fish for commercial fishing are chum and silver. Ironically, those types are down in the rivers like the Kuskokwim. Mr. Kron stated in 1997 for the first time there was a cooperative appeal to the subsistence users along the entire length of the Kuskokwim River to attempt to save chum salmon spawning grounds. The Chinook salmon harvest was fine. However, in late 1997, the coho salmon run failed. In 1998, the Chinook salmon run was down, while the chum and coho salmon runs were up. Some areas and species are doing better than others, but a lot of the problems have been centered around the Bering Sea. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Kron about the spawning conditions and what the people should expect for the next cycle. Mr. Kron replied the failures on the Yukon and Kuskokwim Rivers were totally unexpected. In particular to the Yukon River, there have been very good escapements and conditions for Chinook salmon, summer and fall chums, and the department was expecting a good return. But, it didn't happen. In 1998, the department thought it was looking at a relatively good return, but was below. The future is a good question. Staff has indicated that they are nervous about the projections that they are putting out because they have been wrong in the past. In term of next year's return, the stocks are coming off of the 1995 winter which was harsh. In addition, in spite of the actions taken, the escapements have been very poor. In 1997, the escapements for chum were considerably down for the Kuskokwim River. Similarly, Chinook, summer and fall chums were down on the Yukon River, in spite of no commercial fishing for fall chum and subsistence restrictions. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said last year there were indications of a lack of confidence in information from False Pass and the Port Moller test fishery. Mr. Eggers replied they have always been uncertain indicators because of variations and vulnerabilities. In 1997, there were high catches at Port Moller, but the weather conditions were very good for fishing. The industry suffered from those projections and errors in forecasts because they make business decisions based on them. REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked Mr. Eggers whether he will be in charge of the research this summer and what is on the agenda. Mr. Eggers replied he will be organizing the staff responses. The money for the Disaster Mitigation Research Program will be available on July 1 from NMFS. It is unlikely that anything will "be in the water" for this fuel season, however. It is a three-year program. The plan is for fuel studies in fiscal years 2000, 2001 and 2002. Mr. Kron indicated that the study is in the formative stages, but the intent is to continue and expand upon the cooperative programs in the areas. REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY asked Mr. Eggers whether there has been any cooperative research with foreign countries to determine whether they are suffering as well. Mr. Eggers replied the salmon runs in Russia have been declining in the last several years, and Japanese hatchery runs have been lower. REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY asked Mr. Eggers, in looking at those studies, whether Alaskan fish are showing up in foreign locations. MR. EGGERS replied it is the department's intent to engage in cooperative research with Russian scientists to collect genetic data from their stocks and to get samples from catches in Japanese fishery vessels. He will be attending bi-lateral meetings in the near future with the Russians at which time these issues will be discussed. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Kron whether he is aware of any unusual patterns of salmon being caught further north than Kotzebue. Mr. Kron replied he has heard reports of subsistence fishers around the Barrow area of larger than normal catches of King salmon. There have been warmer temperatures in the Bering Sea and the fish could be moving further north. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated he has heard that just about every species was available out of Barrow and Point Hope. He wondered whether the salmon were coming in late. Mr. Kron noted that the department saw a number of late returning Chinook salmon on the Yukon River. Fall chum salmon were about 10 days late on the Yukon River. In a number of systems, where there are a large number of spawning stocks, there are some fish coming in under the ice. CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Eggers whether there are any residual indications of the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Cook Inlet for example. Mr. Eggers replied that Western Alaskan salmon were not impacted by the Exxon Valdez oil spill. The department has no indication of any effect of the spill on salmon, even for pink salmon, which have been monitored after the oil spill, the department has seen minimal effects. Mr. Eggers further said that the climate cycles are persistent and we could be entering an era of low salmon runs as seen in the late 1970's and 1980's. Mr. Kron noted in terms of looking into the future that the ice of the Bering Sea is further south than ever before. In addition, the department saw large blooms of coccolithophores in 1997 and 1998. Currently, there is a bloom at the leading edge of the Bering Sea ice. CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Eggers what is the furthest north that Atlantic salmon have been recovered. Mr. Eggers replied there was a report of an Atlantic salmon taken in the Bering Sea. It was probably a stray from British Columbia. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said that the largest by-cath in British Columbia waters is Atlantic salmon. Southeast waters is a good environment for them. He expects the population to bloom. Mr. Kron noted in the late 1980's, when the Canadians first started to put Atlantic salmon in their net pens, there were many statements of concern of them spawning in the streams and getting out of their pens. This is an example of the adaptability and impressiveness of a biological organism. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Poland, as the result of two consecutive poor seasons, whether he has any indication that permits are being sold. Mr. Poland replied the department doesn't have any indication that they are being sold other than heresy. Mr. Kron noted that the impact on infrastructure two years in a row means people will be going out of business. The price of salmon has also been down. In the Kuskokwim area, there has been a significant decrease in permits as a function of its value and the run size. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE commented that there are other fisheries in the state where an emergency has not been declared where the stocks are suffering. He cited the chum salmon in the Kotzebue Sound as an example. He hopes that those areas will be included in the studies as well. CHAIRMAN HUDSON AND CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO adjourned the joint meeting between the House Special Committee on Fisheries and the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee meeting. NOTE: The meeting was recorded and handwritten log notes were taken. A copy of the tape(s) and log notes may be obtained by contacting the House Records Office at 130 Seward Street, Suite 211, Juneau, Alaska 99801-2197, (907) 465-2214, and after adjournment of the second session of the Twenty-first Alaska State Legislature, in the Legislative Reference Library.