HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE January 22, 1998 6:08 p.m. Bethel, Alaska COMMITTEE CALENDAR WESTERN ALASKA ECONOMIC DISASTER BRIEFING AND TESTIMONY TAPE(S) 98-2, SIDE(S) A & B 98-3, SIDE(S) A & B 98-4, SIDE(S) A CALL TO ORDER Representative Ivan, Chairman, convened the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee meeting at 6:08 p.m. at the Kuna Hall in Bethel. PRESENT Committee members present at the call to order were Representatives Ivan, Dyson, Joule, Ryan and Sanders. Representatives Ogan and Kookesh were absent. Also attending via teleconference was Representative Phillips, Speaker of the House. SUMMARY OF INFORMATION TAPE 98-2, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN IVAN IVAN explained that the purpose of the meeting is to get as much information as possible on the poor fishing season that occurred in the Lower Kuskokwim this past summer and the economic consequences with which they are now faced in the area. After the Governor declared an economic disaster in Western Alaska area, the community responded by participating in the Coordinated Response Partnership (CRP) teams program. Representative Ivan thanked all the participants (a list was provided). He also acknowledged the memberships that participated in developing the CRP: the Association of Village Council Presidents (AVCP), the Department of Agriculture RDA and the Alaska Housing Finance Corporation (AHFC). Number 080 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS, Speaker of the House, spoke via teleconference. She expressed concern about the long-term economic effects the area will face due to the diminished fish returns in 1997. She stated that the economic disaster also affects the urban centers as well, such as Anchorage and many others that will not get as many dollars as they have received in the past from rural residents who spend a lot of money in urban areas. Speaker Phillips said it is important that plans be put into place to jump- start the economies of both the Kuskokwim and Bristol Bay communities and regions, which were affected by these poor returns during last summer's fishing season. Number 164 JIM SANDERS, Supervisor, Southcentral Regional Office, Division of Municipal And Regional Assistance, Department of Community and Regional Affairs (DCRA), acknowledged the AVCP and Representative Ivan's staff. Mr. Sanders discussed the CRP process and plans adopted by Department of Commerce in Washington, D.C. Mr. Sanders explained that he was hoping to get federal assistance and had gone in two directions. One was the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), asking for money for employment insurance and for availability of their Small Business Administration (SBA) loan program. Mr. Sanders stated, "As you know, FEMA has turned us down." Despite this, the Governor's office was in the process of reviewing the case. Two was to the Magnuson-Stevens Act. This was something that was newly introduced this past year, and there was no funding for that particular element of the program, so they had to turn to the congressional delegation and were successful in securing $7 million for the disaster. The state needs to match that with a 25 percent match, so we need $2.3 million, which will make a total of $9.3 million. Mr. Sanders explained how the plans and funds will be carried out when they became available. Number 328 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE asked Mr. Sanders if the state match is a required match in order to receive the $7 million of federal money. MR. SANDERS responded that a 25 percent match is required. Number 336 CHAIRMAN IVAN asked Mr. Sanders if the $7 million was available now. MR. SANDERS replied it was, although it would take a while to get it through the contracting procedures and into the hands of the state. Due to the time frame, disbursement wouldn't happen until mid-to-late March. Number 362 PETER J. MILLER, P.O. Box 8065, Tuntutuliak, Alaska, (907) 256- 2626, testified in Yup'ik. Number 390 CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Miller's testimony about poor financial conditions in Tuntutuliak due to the fishery. Mr. Miller commented on the problems currently faced by the Kuskokwim fishermen and other commercial fishermen in surrounding villages. His concern was paying for light bills and some expenses that include telephone bills, water, sewer; he also needs heating oil, gasoline and motor oil for snow machines (indisc.) summertime. There is also a need for people to continue their subsistence way of life through maintaining their snow machines, like buying parts. His concern is also commercial fishing gear for the upcoming season. Number 428 AL LEXIE testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from Atmautluak (address not provided.) CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Lexie's testimony of general comments about the poor fishing season. Number 458 MIKE WASSILIE, SR., P.O. Box 8084, Tuntutuliak, Alaska 99680, (907) 256-2210, testified in Yup'ik. CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Wassilie's testimony. Mr. Wassilie had the same concerns as the last two speakers, about housing bills and general all-around bills. He also had some questions about the money that was advocated for the loan program. Chairman Ivan answered the questions in Yup'ik for Mr. Wassilie. MR. SANDERS again summarized the loan process, saying 20 percent off the top of the whole amount will be for the loan program that will be available both in Bristol Bay and the Kuskokwim. Loans will probably be somewhere between $100 and $1,500. The terms for the loan are very generous in that it is an interest-free loan and an individual would have at least four years, starting after this coming fishing season, to pay that loan back. If there was a bad year, the loan repayment could be put off for a year. One option to secure the loan is for people to sign over part of their Alaska permanent fund dividend (PFD). If one borrowed $2,000 over a four- year period, $500 would be deducted from the PFD. If one made enough money during the fishing season, the loan could be paid back after that season. CARL BERGER, Executive Director, Lower Kuskokwim Economical Development Council (LKEDC), Box 2021, Bethel, Alaska, 99559 (907) 543-5967, encouraged support for the supplemental appropriation that was going to be requested by the DCRA. Mr. Berger spoke about a number of things that are causing hardships along with the poor fishing. The LKEDC is trying to work on development of alternatives to selling fish. Mr. Berger also encouraged support for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game's (ADF&G's) budget so that they can provide adequate fisheries research and resource monitoring during the commercial season. Mr. Berger stated, "As a personal request, I advocate for allowing fish and game management to remain with the state. It is very important that people in our state feel strongly that we should be in position to manage our own fish and game resources and not turn them over to the federal government for management. We are a state." TAPE 98-2, SIDE B Number 583 JOHN ANDREW, (907) 557-5515, testified in Yup'ik via teleconference (no address provided). Number 687 CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Andrew's testimony. Mr. Andrew was testifying on behalf of himself and has been a Bristol Bay fisherman and had also served as a pastor. Since 1995, he has retired from pastorship. His only income is from commercial fishing. Most recently he had physical problems and was unable to fish, so he leased out his Bristol Bay permit. Mr. Andrew is trying to use his resources wisely but is running out of resources. Currently, he has two loans; one is for federal taxes, and he has been working on paying that. By the end of February, he is going to be out of funds. He made comments on what he has learned through the newspaper about the plan that was discussed at the beginning of the hearing and that the FEMA program was not approved. Chairman Ivan briefly gave Mr. Andrew some of the components of the plan; that was presented in Yup'ik. Number 728 JESSE BEAVER testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from Goodnews Bay. Number 756 MAGGIE SOLTS testified via teleconference from Goodnews Bay. A herring fisherman, Ms. Solts had been told that she was not eligible to apply for any application because she is a herring fisherman, not a salmon fisherman. Number 770 MR. SANDERS explained that the disaster was aimed at the salmon fishery collapse in both the Kuskokwim and the Bristol Bay fisheries and was not based upon the decline in the herring. The application for those funds had to be very specific about what fishery was being talked about and what the disaster was; and the Governor's declaration identified the salmon fisheries and not the herring fisheries. Number 784 MS. SOLTS asked if there was a way she could be eligible as a herring fisherman. She explained that she made half of what she made last year, and herring is her sole salary for the year. Number 790 MR. SANDERS responded that he had received a number of calls from other people that are also involved in the herring fishery. Mr. Sanders explained that the way the disaster declaration regulations are written pertaining to funds, there was not a way for herring fishermen to participate in this particular disaster program. Number 810 WASSILIE ROBERTS testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from Goodnews Bay. Number 848 CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Roberts' testimony. Mr. Roberts fishes herring and salmon. Mr. Roberts is concerned about low prices in herring and that Goodnews Bay has no buyers in the early season. Coho salmon fishing is poor. He had comments similar to those of previous callers. Number 863 JACKSON WILLIAMS, SR., Box 128, Akiak, Alaska, 99552, (907) 765- 7428, testified representing the Akiak IRA Council. Five years ago he transferred his permit to his older son. His son died about two years ago, and now he is a permit holder again. Fishing is Mr. Williams' only employment. He was very concerned that fishing will not get better. He would like to see more enforcement in Area M to ensure chum are not being thrown out. He also said there was a need for more state resource personnel to help. Number 986 FRED SMITH, Box 219, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-7375, testified representing the AVCP as a CRP member. Their first concern was to try to help meet the immediate needs of the fishermen on the Kuskokwim and then deal with the longer-term issues. Given the time frame with the federal funds that Jim Sanders mentioned earlier, they strongly encourage the legislature to respond to Governor Knowles' supplemental request for appropriations, both the 25 percent match the state is obligated to meet and, for more immediate needs, the emergency unemployment insurance appropriation that would directly help individual families in the villages. With the FEMA denial, the state would be the next-best bet to come up with the funds for that emergency unemployment insurance. Mr. Smith said another thing that they at AVCP feel needs to be done is that the disaster declaration area needs to be expanded to include all the communities affected: Quinhagak, Goodnews Bay, Kipnuk, Chefornak, Nightmute, Toksook Bay, et cetera. One of the long-term issues, resource stabilization, is a primary concern. REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON stated, "Representative Ivan and I are particularly interested in changing state laws, making it easier for villages to organize in a way that is both comfortable and within resources that they have. We very much encourage you to forward to us your suggestions on how the law should be changed to make it easier for you to have a government that is recognized by the state, that is comfortable for you, and that would be a legitimate channel for all those resources and hopefully work together with the other forms of governments." MR. SMITH responded that they have experienced disadvantages this summer. He gave an example of the rapid response program of the DCRA; the Bristol Bay side was able to tap into those funds to start assessing the economic and social impacts of the fishery disaster. It was not until the 18th or 19th of December that there was an RP that AVCP, as a regional nonprofit, could apply for those funds to assess the economical impacts. By that time, AVCP had already spent quite a bit of their time and resources doing that. If there were state resources designed to be put to use in the event of a disaster like this one, then there should be a way to channel those resources to the affected area. It was not possible to tap into those funds as easily as a borough or municipal government could. REPRESENTATIVE JOE RYAN asked Mr. Smith if the fisherman have fish landing taxes or some kind of tax. MR. SMITH responded that the only places you will see the raw fish tax is in the city of Bethel and on the Bristol Bay side, the boroughs and the city of Dillingham. Those communities that are experiencing this disaster count on that fish tax or those entities. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Smith who needs the money more, the community or the individuals. MR. SMITH said he thought that with the time that it has taken, there are some federal funds in sight that are going to eventually make it out to the communities. But because these communities rely on their residents to pay for public services, it has trickled into the public sector now. The AVCP's first concern was where to try to help the affected fisherman with fuel, electricity and those kinds of costs. There are two avenues available, one being the Division of Public Assistance, which offered the seasonal waiver this summer for welfare recipients; that did not include everyone. Given the numbers that were approved for that waiver, it resulted in a minimal impact. The other help that has been available is through the AVCP's social services department, where they administer funds for energy and general assistance. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN explained the reason the borough or (indisc.-- muffled) because the country makes sure the money is spent the way it is suppose to be spent. Representative Ryan suggested that the community puts suggestions together to set up (indisc.) whichever entity receives it. That way, the state can take responsibility to know where the money is going and that there is some accountability for it. That is probably the reluctance of the state not to give it to a organized entity in the unorganized borough. MR. SMITH responded that until it is given, there is not going to be the opportunity for any community to be responsible for the accounting side of it. CHAIRMAN IVAN commented that we would like to take some of the hurdles away, to get the help down to the families and communities. He understood that one of the hurdles that might be (indisc.-- muffled) municipalities. His understanding from Mr. Sanders is that for time efficiency, any village organization can take responsibility and provide financial reports. Chairman Ivan said he was assured by Mr. Sanders they would work with whomever - for example, traditional councils or IRAs - in executing the plan. Chairman Ivan asked Jim Sanders if that was correct. MR. SANDERS responded, "Yes, I think it's the language of that proposal that it is up to the community to determine the avenue that those funds are going to come in and re-administer." STAN BERLIN testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from Atmautluak. TAPE 98-3, SIDE A Number 0097 JAMES NICKLAI testified in Yup'ik. CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Stan Berlin's and James Nicklai's testimony. He said Mr. Berlin and Mr. Nicklai had concerns about the plan and loan program. Mr. Ivan explained to Mr. Berlin and Mr. Nicklai that it is his understanding that that could be renegotiated, if necessary, to meet their income situations in commercial fishery. TOM WRIGHT, Committee Aide, House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee, and Legislative Assistant to Representative Ivan Ivan, stated, "Fred Smith gave me the numbers you requested; I will go through this paragraph real quickly. This information is from Division of Commercial Fisheries' September news release. Kuskokwim permit holders received $1,058,102 for their catch. The value of the catch was $4,391,755, 80 percent below the previous ten-year average of $5,449,861. The average permit holder received $1,505; this was below the most recent ten-year average of $6757 per permit holder; that was a '97 figure." Number 164 JOSEPH ALEXIE, Box 135, Tuluksak (city), Alaska 99679, (907) 695- 6922, testified representing Tuluksak Tribal Council. He is a Kuskokwim fisherman. Mr. Alexie commented on low prices and how it hurts the fishery. He also explained his loan payments and his situation in Tuluksak. He is concerned about Tuluksak being last on the list for help from state funds. CHAIRMAN IVAN responded that the (indisc.) of the community council is no (indisc.--muffled) problem as long as there is an active village government that can keep financial records, as required for the funds as they are disbursed. These funds are also (indisc.) the communities and we certainly encourage the communities to do what they can to help. ANTHONY CAOLE, Tribal Administrator, Quinhagak, testified via teleconference. He is concerned that Quinhagak and Goodnews Bay have been excluded from the disaster relief program. The majority of their permit holders are in Quinhagak and are holding Kuskokwim permits. The value of the Quinhagak fishery W4 for the last eight years has averaged about $950,000. In 1996 it dropped to $535,000, and in 1997 it dropped even further, to $498,000, half of what the average was. This last summer was worse, due to the fact that so many of the fisherman from Kuskokwim villages came down to Quinhagak to fish. They were literally deluged with other fishermen. The value of the W4 fishery in 1997 was $498,000. They figured that 55 percent of that went to Quinhagak and 45 percent went to other fishermen in other villages. They have never seen so many fishermen come down as in 1997. Local government also felt the effects; for example, by the end of the summer the public safety building was demolished. Quinhagak strongly feels that they should be included in the disaster relief programs. Number 303 JOSHUA CLEVELAND, Quinhagak National Resource Director, testified via teleconference. He gave his views on economic disaster. He expressed concerns about Quinhagak not being included in the disaster relief declaration. Number 365 VERNON BAVILLA, Quinhagak Natural Resource Department, testified via teleconference. He was concerned that Quinhagak and Goodnews Bay areas are not being included in the disaster relief declaration. Money should be available not only in the form of grants and loans to the villages, but also to individual permit holders. He made comments on there being too many fisherman from other villages coming to Quinhagak. Mr. Bavillo asked the committee, "What about making money available to the local communities to establish value-added facilities so we can get away from raw fish and start value-adding their products?" Number 401 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Jim Sanders why Quinhagak and Goodnews Bay were excluded and if there is an appeal process. Number 404 MR. SANDERS responded, "I can't exactly explain why, but I know the Governor's office was identifying areas. They were looking at the current numbers of fish that where being caught and the number of openings that had occurred. The Kuskokwim, I believe there were only two openings for the chum fishery. The Administration was looking for numbers that were there; I am not a expert, so I can't really speak with expertise. But the Quinhagak and the Goodnews Bay fisheries, at least to my understanding, did have openings and they did have fishery activities going on; as for the other areas, they did not. I believe that was the reason that those areas where in line for inclusion or exclusion." REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Sanders if there was any way that the residents of those areas or the DCRA could appeal that exclusion at this point in the process. MR. SANDERS responded, "I don't know if the CRA or communities could appeal it, but it is certainly something we could explore to see if it could be expanded. I don't know how we would expand it in the current funding in the Magnuson-Stevens Act. I don't think the door is closed on asking for additional funding. We are looking for more funding in the future now that we have the actual numbers." REPRESENTATIVE DYSON commented. "If I understand you, the process for this grant through the Magnuson-Stevens Act is completed, and it is too late to change the boundaries of it." MR. SANDERS responded that he really did not know because it is a brand new program and there really are very few regulations in dealing with Congress. But their decision was based upon what the Governor identified in the original declaration. To go back and open it up for renegotiation, Mr. Sanders said, he really doesn't know what that process would be. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked: If the DCRA or individuals wanted to pursue that, would the Governor's office be the place to pursue the appeal? MR. SANDERS responded, "That would definitely be the place to pursue it." REPRESENTATIVE DYSON commented to Anthony Caole, the Tribal Administer of Quinhagak, that the CRA committee was impressed by the cooperative local government in Quinhagak. He also stated that the committee is in a process to try to revise the state law to make it easier for local communities to do their business and to interact with the federal and state governments. Mr. Dyson said that the committee would like to hear any suggestions they may have. ANTHONY CAOLE responded, "For the record, the committee member that had a concern about accountability with tribal government, our community has had four years of unqualified audits operating federal programs and we are now eligible for what the government calls self-government status, which allows us to receive funds directly from the United States with very little strings attached. In a sense, we have demonstrated more accountability than the borough. With regards to fostering our cooperative approach to government, Quinhagak, I believe, is the only community in the state of Alaska that has consolidated their municipal and tribal administrations. Our tribal government is currently administering all the city's funds. The reason this has happened is because the municipalities have been defunded to the point that they can no longer sustain and operate themselves. The tribal government had to assist the city in order to keep the city functioning. Quinhagak's hope is that the legislature will allow tribes to receive funds directly from the state without creating further administrative arms, such as nonprofits. We would also like this approach to [be] officially sanctioned or approved by the state and that the issue (indisc.--muffled) delegating these responsibilities through their IRA councils, et cetera, that it be approved by the legislature." REPRESENTATIVE DYSON responded, "That's the very thing that the committee is interested in doing, and we would be very glad if you dropped the committee a note, or call." [10-minute break.] Number 479 BUSTER RICHARDSON, Box 371, Bethel, Alaska, 99559, (907) 543-3397, Tender Operator, explained that several people along the river are tender operators and do not hold fish permits. However, they live in the community and have families. Most of the money the tender boats made went to fuel oil. Mr. Richardson pointed out that tender workers were hit as hard as the fisherman, yet in the proposal he did not see anywhere that the tender operators would be able to benefit at all from the program. For an example, his boat did not make any money this year, so they had to let the insurance lapse. He also made comments on Quinhagak and Goodnews Bay being left out. Mr. Richardson stated that there are six to eight tender operators in the community who all hire not only from Bethel but also from villages up and down the river, and they serve the river from Aniak to Goodnews Bay. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson how much would it take to get him, individually, back to work next year. MR. RICHARDSON responded, "That is hard to say; in a sense, my insurance alone is $6,000 for the season. That is $6,000 I've got to pay for a boat I can only use three months out of the year; the rest of the time it sits. I will have to come up with enough funds to get the insurance company to reinstate my insurance policy. I am assuming that a couple of grand to start with; that is not counting what I have to do to my boat to get it ready. Plus my helper, I end up buying their permits at the beginning of the season. I would guess a minimum of $4,000 just to get me in the water." REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson if he had a ballpark figure if the individual caucus member and the legislature were to offer covering people who are not eligible, along the same lines as those that are. MR. RICHARDSON responded that he could probably come up with a figure. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson if he could put together some quotes and send that down to Representative Ivan. MR. RICHARDSON replied, "Yes, I would be more than happy to do that". REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "That if we could sell this idea, I think it would be more easy to sell to the caucus if we talk about that, perhaps some kind of emergency loan rather than people saying another handout to the Bush. If we would try get some money and make it available for loans, perhaps the same provisions as the feds are doing, and if you have another bad year we could work with you on that." MR. RICHARDSON responded that he thought it would be a good idea and that the fisherman would go for it, too. One other aspect he would like the legislature to look at is that fishermen have gone to the processor and said, "I am in desperate need of a motor unit for my boat; can you front me a thousand dollars?" Sometimes they will do that, and in turn, each time the fisherman sells his fish to one of the operators for that processor, a percentage is deducted and pretty soon it is paid off. Mr. Richardson stated that to him it seems like a logical way for any kind of a loan made to these fisherman. TAPE 98-3, SIDE B REPRESENTATIVE JERRY SANDERS asked Mr. Richardson, since he works from one end of the Kuskokwim River to the other, if he may be in the position to say whether the legislature may be able to do something like this. Representative Sanders explained that there are long-run and short-run problems, and we are really addressing the short-run problem now. He also asked Mr. Richardson whether in regards to the long-run problem, he thinks that the poor runs and the poor prices have brought the industry on the Kuskokwim to a position that there might be a chance that they can form co-ops or unions, some way to unite and have more influence over the market. MR. RICHARDSON responded that there needs to be a program set up for value-added fish products. He would like to see a co-op, but he doesn't think it would work. Mr. Richardson stated, "That's what has happened in the past, and the poor prices that the fisherman receive, there is no real incentive, for example, in Bristol Bay for a guy making 2 or 3 hundred thousand a year in his big boat. Sure, I would jump into a co-op and really work hard with it for that kind of money, but when a man is making 2, 3, 4 thousand in a whole season, there is not much incentive to really get out and break your back." He also explained that there is a fishermen's union and they have tried. In his experience he has not seen that entity being workable. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "I have something maybe you can help me out on. I sit on budget subcommittee, and Alaska Seafood Marketing Institute (ASMI) is part of that. They can come to us telling us they need millions of dollars for marketing, they can access federal funds and so forth, but I have not really seen where their efforts have (indisc.)." Mr. Ryan asked Mr. Richardson what his opinion is, and how it affects him. MR. RICHARDSON explained that he feels that the union is more of a benefit to the larger fish processors in the state, which in effect is a trickle-down thing that affected them, too. He also stated that he has not heard anybody say anything bad about it and that there are positive aspects to it, one way or another. It benefits the state of Alaska and it helps everybody, but as far as directly in their pocket, no. Most of them feel that it mostly benefits the big processors, not so much the fisherman. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson if he had any contact with ASMI, and if so, did they talk to him about how they may help him market his fish. MR. RICHARDSON responded that no, as a tender operator he is not always invited to attend those meetings. Number 734 CHAIRMAN IVAN said to Jim Sanders, "My understanding of the proposal that was developed was to see how far it trickled down and affects the tender operators; for example, Jessie Beaver of Goodnews Bay made some comments that they sell whenever there are processors available or buyers in the area. That seems like a weak link that contributes to this problem." MR. SANDERS responded that they really wanted to rely on the expertise of the region. Money and resources should get to the individual fisherman, and that was their primary concern. That is why the majority of the money is going to go into the community grants. Grants are a way of getting people to work so they can get money, so that fisherman can get employed after the fishing season and have some additional income. That is the direct purpose of the grant programs. Commerce would not give money directly to fishermen without providing some sort of service. As far as providing money to tenders or to private businesses, that was not a priority that came out of either Bristol Bay or the Kuskokwim CRP. Mr. Sanders explained that they went with the local expertise. Originally when the Governor made a request to the FEMA program, part of that request asked for money for unemployment insurance and part asked for the SBA low-interest loan program. That would have been available to businesses such as tenders or stores in communities that have lack of income. It is still an option, that they are seeking to get funding or at least allow impacted businesses to apply for the SBA. CHAIRMAN IVAN extended his thanks to Mr. Richardson for his testimony and stated that he would personally check it out with the Fish and Game budget committee, to see what in fact could be done. Number 793 MR. RICHARDSON responded with his appreciation and went on to say, "An income criteria will be used (indisc.) at least 51 percent of the net earned family income is derived from fishing". Mr. Richardson then asked: What do you do with a family of three that makes maybe $3,000 for fishing and the total family income is maybe $8,000 to $12,000 for the year? He did not think that there are many permit holders that can meet that criteria. Number 807 MAX ANGELLAN, P.O. Box 77, Kwethluk, Alaska 99621, (907) 757-6714, Tribal Administrator and City Council Member, thanked the committee and expressed concerns about the plans and money for fuel, et cetera, for subsistence reasons. He also would like to see these people being helped with their electricity and other payments. Mr. Angellan emphasized the need for fish counting stations. In his opinion, if there is research and planning, future disasters can be avoided. He also expressed that he is not happy with the Board of Fisheries. Number 020 STANLEY BEAN, Kwethluk, suggested putting the 200-mile limit to a 300-mile limit, and for Area M, reducing from 700,000 the quotas back to 350,000. Number 031 DAVID BERLIN, Nunapitchuk, stated that it would be better for the money to be provided to the fisherman rather than to the community. He mentioned that Buster Richardson commented on whether the villages could reunite to get some funding for the processing plant management problem. He said he also supported a pay increase for public safety and VPSOs. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Jim Sanders about his comments about the money going to the community and not to individuals. He asked, "Is part of the reason for that because if it went to individuals, a lot of money would leave the state on account of funds going to permit holders not from Alaska?" Number 074 MR. SANDERS responded that that was one of the concerns. He said they don't want a lot of funds to go out of state. The other problem was that Commerce was adamant that they would not give money directly to fishermen, that there had to be either a loan program or some sort of employment program. Number 084 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sanders if it was the intent under community employment that permit holders and crew would be the recipients of the community employment grants. Number 088 MR. SANDERS responded that those were definitely the target group for employment. He said that the cannery workers are also very affected, but those people who are most directly affected are the ones that they want to see employed in these projects. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked, in regards to Mr. Richardson's testimony earlier, whether that would apply to tender operators. He is not included as a permit holder but under community employment. If some of the money were to come to Bethel, would tender operators be eligible for potential employment under this scenario? MR. SANDERS responded that it is really going to be up to the community to define (indisc.--muffled) as much of this decision making as we can to the community level. Bethel puts together plans, and if that is one group that they want to target, then Bethel should encourage it. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Sanders if there was discretion that once the money hits a community, the community, if they so choose, can make individual grants. MR. SANDERS responded that Commerce does not want grants directed to individuals. Number 108 JACK HOPSTAD, AVCP, VPSO Program Coordinator, Box 219, Bethel, Alaska 99559, (907 543-7391), provided a memorandum dated January 22, 1998, to committee members about the VPSO program, asking the committee to consider eligibility for VPSOs. Number 162 ALLEN ALIRKAR, Box 2025, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-5836, stated that he is a Bristol Bay permit holder. He asked the committee whether the state has a plan if future economical disaster occurs. He also asked that the state form some sort of committee to back up on loans. CHAIRMAN IVAN asked Jim Sander about future plans. TAPE 98-4, SIDE A Number 001 MR. SANDERS responded, "Yes, at least for this funding that we are using now, it is a brand-new approach and a brand-new resource, and Alaska is sort of on the cutting edge because we are defining how the Magnuson-Stevens money will be used in the future. That is one reason why Commerce has been hesitant about how this money is used." Mr. Sanders explained that there is no comprehensive planning as of yet. Number 041 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Sanders if he has been able to work out a program for the small commercial fisherman. Number 060 MR. SANDERS responded that was the purpose of having the two CRP organizations, that Bristol Bay understood their fishery and the Kuskokwim CRP understood their fishery. The programs were developed from their recommendations. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN responded that he would be interested in looking at something that addresses what a bad year does to the smaller commercial fisherman and in making a program that can tide them over. Number 086 JOBE ABRAHAM, SR., Box 71, Chefornak, Alaska ,(907) 867-8893, testified in Yup'ik. CHAIRMAN IVAN translated. Mr. Abraham, Sr., is a fisherman in Bristol Bay. He commented about the high cost of living experienced in Chefornak. Number 260 MR. ABRAHAM asked questions of Jim Sanders about the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Number 268 MR. SANDERS responded that there is nothing directly available to assist other than the loan program. However, the department has worked with the IRS and they have had IRS representatives out in all the communities offering to work with fishermen to help them develop repayment schedules and to eliminate penalties and interest. The IRS has participated in a lot of the meetings and has been very active in the CRP process. Number 304 DARIO NOTTI, P.O. Box 2175, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-3072, Bethel City Council, stated that eight of the last sixteen years he has fished as a crew member and worked other jobs, but he did not fish this year. What worried him was that the city council will vote on hiring a fisherman or a carpenter to build a boardwalk. That money might not go to where it is supposed to. He would like to see something that does not give them that option if the money is given to the council instead of the fisherman. Number 429 MYRON P. NANENG, SR., Box 1226, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-7301, President, AVCP, stated that 1997 was the second disaster declaration, the first being in 1993. People anticipate another disaster in the year 2001. He also said that the state subsidized hatcheries. Maybe they should subsidize the transportation of chum in the Y-K Delta. The committee needs to look at how matching funds are to be utilized. CHAIRMAN IVAN gave closing remarks and thanked all those who participated in the hearing and the teleconference. COMMITTEE ACTION The committee took no action. NOTE: The meeting was recorded and handwritten log notes were taken. A copy of the tape(s) and log notes may be obtained by contacting the House Records Office at 130 Seward Street, Suite 211, Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182, (907) 465-2214, and after adjournment of the second session of the Twentieth Alaska State Legislature, in the Legislative Reference Library.