HB 165-BIG GAME GUIDES AND TRANSPORTERS  CHAIR HUGGINS announced the consideration of HB 165. 3:47:37 PM REPRESENTATIVE GABRIELLE LeDOUX, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of HB 165, reminded members that it was heard last year and held in order to give the Department of Law (DOL) and Department of Public Safety (DPS) an opportunity to weigh in. She reported that DOL said the bill doesn't raise any issues for that department, and although DPS was notified of this hearing, there was no response; she surmised no news is good news. REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX recapped that in 1996 legislation was passed to define big game hunters, outfitters, and transporters and to provide regulations for licensing and other considerations. However, it had no provision for a person who simply wants to rent a cabin to people who may or may not be hunting. REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX pointed out that many rural Alaskans have cabins that are empty for part of the year and this bill allows them to rent their cabins without falling into any of the regulations found in the 1996 statute. Rural residents have few economic opportunities, and this provides one. She added that members of the Big Game Commercial Services Board have worked with her office to craft a bill that protects their interests while allowing others to do business. She deferred to Suzanne Hancock, who'd worked on the bill with the constituent whose e- mail brought this issue to their attention. 3:49:55 PM SUZANNE HANCOCK, Staff to Representative LeDoux, noted the aforementioned constituent was on teleconference. She said others including outdoor groups have weighed in on behalf of individuals who wish to simply rent out a cabin without being present or providing accommodations or acting as an outfitter or guide. CHAIR HUGGINS asked if anyone opposed this bill. MS. HANCOCK replied this only takes care of cabins on private land and state and federal cabins on state and federal land; the one individual she heard from wanted the bill to be expanded to cover private cabins on leased land. The main reason that was decided against is because several groups such as the Big Game Commercial Services Board remembered that is what led to this law in the first place. In the 1980s some people falsely claimed to be outfitters and it sometimes involved leased property. Adding leased land would muddy a simple situation. SENATOR WAGONER asked if the person who was renting out the cabins was a transporter or guide. MS. HANCOCK answered no. SENATOR WAGONER went on to ask if he had a business license and his business was renting cabins or hotel rooms, what current law prevents him from renting that cabin or hotel room to a hunter. MS. HANCOCK offered to find out, saying it might take a minute. CHAIR HUGGINS asked how renting out a cabin differs from renting out a motel room. MS. HANCOCK responded that Mr. Metzger hadn't thought there was anything wrong with renting his cabin until the troopers showed up and said he wasn't supposed to do that. 3:53:40 PM RICK METZGER, rural property owner from Kodiak Island, specified that he supports HB 165 and participated in developing HB 165. He explained that he hadn't been renting cabins for several years, because in November 2006 he was shut down by Kodiak enforcement. He was told because the word "usually" was removed from the definition of "field" in August 2006 and by renting a cabin in an area not associated with a city, town, or village, he was in violation of the definition of "field." SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI cited AS 08.54.790, saying there is no "usually" associated with it. He asked where that ties in so that a person cannot rent out a cabin or house. MR. METZGER referred to the outfitting portion of the "field" definition, saying it had some mention of facilities, but he didn't have it in front of him. Noting it got confusing and convoluted, Mr. Metzger added that he had a state business license and lots of correspondence from the Division of Occupational Licensing saying it was okay to rent the cabins until the time the troopers came and interpreted it differently. In response to Senator Wagoner, he said he isn't a transporter or big game guide, just a property owner. The violation was because he isn't in an area associated with a city, town, or village. CHAIR HUGGINS apologized for the bureaucracy. MR. METZGER added this was one opportunity for folks who live in desirable hunting areas to make a modest income from their property and he had lost that opportunity. JIM PETERSON voiced support for HB 165, noting that he is one of the few people who live in Deadman Bay in the summertime and that he has known Rick Metzger since 1965. He said Mr. Metzger was providing a service so that modest-income people could rent a cabin and enjoy the beauty of southern Kodiak Island without hiring a guide. It brings joy to people and he saw nothing wrong with what he was doing. 3:59:21 PM ROBERT FITHIAN, Executive Director, Alaska Professional Hunters Association, said his group supports the bill, which fixes a loophole that prevents people like Mr. Metzger from doing what is right. REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX, in response to Chair Huggins, noted she'd asked staff to distribute a letter that says the 1996 law changed the definition of "field" by taking out "usually." Although she didn't know whether including "usually" made a difference, she surmised because of the change in the law the Department of Public Safety (DPS) enforced it more stringently. Prior to that, Mr. Metzger could rent his cabins, but afterwards he couldn't because under the regulations this area is outside a city or a township. SENATOR GREEN asked if the bill even covers Mr. Metzger, since language on lines 5-6 it says "with the intent to receive compensation, only accommodations to a big game hunter". 4:02:55 PM REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX referred to paragraph (9), which adds new language, "excluding the provision of accommodations by a person  described in AS 08.54.875". She said this allows someone like Mr. Metzger to provide services without being considered an outfitter. SENATOR GREEN again read from line 6 that said "the provisions of this chapter do not apply to a person providing for compensation...only accommodations to a big game hunter in the field as" and asked whether that was in essence a double negative. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he thought 08.54.720(a)(11) said "it is unlawful for a person without a current registered guide outfitter license to knowingly outfit the big game hunt, provide outfitting services, and so on." The definition of "outfit" in AS 08.54.790(9) means "to provide for compensation, or with the intent to receive compensation, services, supplies or facilities to a big game hunter in the field." Removing "usually" changed the definition of "field" slightly and he agreed with Representative LeDoux that it probably didn't matter. But the troopers interpreted that to mean if someone is "in the field", it is unlawful to do this and he thought the bill fixed the problem. SENATOR GREEN asked where the bill fixes it for someone who isn't hunting. 4:05:16 PM SENATOR STEVENS replied that situation is already okay. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI concurred, adding this bill only pertains to big game hunters. SENATOR GREEN recalled, however, that the problem arose when a nonhunter was renting the cabin. SENATOR STEVENS requested confirmation that a cabin can already be rented to someone who isn't hunting, but that the problem arises when the person is a big game hunter. REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX affirmed that, apologizing if she'd indicated otherwise. If it was a photographer, there'd be no problem, but it becomes a crime if someone has a gun with the intention of shooting something. SENATOR GREEN asked if that applies even to a casual hunter, not a guide, outfitter, and so on. REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX said that is the way the law is being interpreted and enforced now. SENATOR STEDMAN noted line 9 speaks to a waiver for state and federal cabins on state or federal land. He asked what the state policy is for renting state cabins to a big game hunter. 4:06:26 PM MS. HANCOCK answered, because many times those cabins are rented to hunters, this language was meant to clarify that. She said that a person shooting rabbits or deer can still be considered a big game hunter. SENATOR STEDMAN asked if the state is renting cabins to registered guides. MS. HANCOCK replied she didn't know. She also didn't know if a mechanism exists to allow the state to determine whether someone renting a state cabin is a licensed guide. 4:07:20 PM PAUL JOHNSON, Chair, Big Game Commercial Services Board, said this goes back to 1990, when a task force was put together to define "transporters and guides" and it also defined "field or cabins" and what would be allowed. At that time it said through regulation, not statute, a person had to have a transporter or big game license to do those kinds of activities and probably Mr. Metzger's situation was not considered. It has nothing to do with things like photography; it's just if you're taking people out for big game hunting. He further explained that the language was put back into statute when the board was sunsetted in 1996; prior to that, it was in regulation. When the Big Game Commercial Services Board was reauthorized last year that language was left in statute and not put in regulation, so the board couldn't act on it in dealing with Mr. Metzger. MR. JOHNSON clarified that it wasn't that Mr. Metzger couldn't do what he was doing, but he would have had to get a transporter license, which Mr. Metzger felt was unnecessary. The board agreed and asked Mr. Metzger to work with a board member to assist in changing the statute. The bill is a solid compromise on who must have a transporter license and who doesn't and allows Mr. Metzger to do what he was doing. 4:10:50 PM MR. JOHNSON said the reason the Department of Public Safety got involved is because when the board was restarted, it wasn't paying any attention to any of those rules and regulations from 1996 and when this statute came through, it came to the surface. SENATOR GREEN asked why leased lands weren't included in the bill. MR. JOHNSON replied that those issues all came up at the original 1990 task force when people interested in game wanted to go in every direction. Therefore the department felt that people with leased land should have a $250-transporter license and make annual reports so everyone would "have a feel" for what was going on. The board felt that was an intrusion upon private land owners and that they shouldn't be included in the process and he agreed that it would muddy the waters. SENATOR GREEN asked if Mr. Metzger had been on leased land, the board wouldn't have had the same interest. MR. JOHNSON replied probably; the board was mainly interested in how private land owners are treated versus people with leased land. Having leased lands included in the provisions would cause problems, he said, and federal lands have always had their public use cabins. SENATOR GREEN asked who would be the typical owner of the leased land. MR. JOHNSON replied the state. SENATOR GREEN asked if it is okay to have a state cabin to lease but not a privately-owned cabin on state land. MR. JOHNSON replied that most state/federal cabins can't legally be leased to people in commercial services. 4:13:38 PM SENATOR GREEN asked if he risks being caught if he does rent one of those cabins. MR. JOHNSON replied that he would risk being caught because his permit states specifically that is not allowed. CHAIR HUGGINS said some people have cabins in preserves around a park and asked what that land status is. 4:14:13 PM MR. JOHNSON replied for instance, that Dry Bay Unit 5 in Yakutat is on preserved land and the guide there has a guide license. If he wanted to transport off that land, he would need to get a transporter license. This unit has leased cabins on it and the commercial entities using them need to be licensed. SENATOR McGUIRE said in 1990 the issue was abuse by the big game guides some of whom transported and guided without any control or regulation. The legislature tried to identify two pathways to oversee that. She asked why, philosophically, the state would say someone who is leasing out a cabin on state land that has been in their family for 50 years has to have a transporter license; but seven miles away someone else who has had a privately owned cabin for two years would not have to have that transporter license. 4:15:52 PM MR. JOHNSON replied philosophically it boils down to the fact that the state leases with DNR vary from 30, 60, 90 and 180 days and discusses whether the cabin is a tent platform. If one would look at an advertised activity on big game in Alaska, they would be amazed at how many people are trying to work around the state's present laws. For now, the concern is that people who have private lands can proceed without having to go through the state's bureaucracy. 4:16:59 PM SENATOR WAGONER said he has a lease on state property along with a lot of other people and it's called a duck shack. He thought they were precluded in the lease from some uses, because it's primarily for seasonal use. Some commercial fishermen wanted to rent it from him, but they couldn't. He said the state would like to get rid of all the cabins on leased property. 4:17:59 PM MR. JOHNSON commented that he also has a Forest Service cabin that has been in the family for many generations. But it will be burned down at the point of his son's death. The permit is very strict and doesn't allow him to use it for commercial purposes at all. SENATOR McGUIRE remarked that only 1 percent of all land in Alaska is in private ownership. She remembers going to a duck shack and it is sad that her child would not have that same opportunity. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked who this bill applies to. MR. JOHNSON replied it is only for people who are in the commercial aspect of big game. If you are making money off of big game, the state wants to know what you are doing. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what percentage of big game hunts involves Alaskans as opposed to people from outside Alaska. MR. JOHNSON replied that it varies throughout the state. He understands from Mr. Metzger that over half of his clients are residents taking advantage of the permit draw in Kodiak for bear and deer. But in many areas of the state it is 100 percent non- residents. 4:20:54 PM SENATOR STEDMAN went back to line 9 that deals with cabins on state and federal land saying that commercial guides can't rent those - in the Tongass for instance. He asked why the state and federal issues are in the bill. MR. JOHNSON answered even though the federal government never followed them until 1990; the state statutes said if someone rented one, they were supposed to be a transporter. It was never enforced. He said the only one it was enforced upon was Mr. Metzger. SENATOR STEDMAN asked if the definition of "state" was broad enough to include municipalities. MR. JOHNSON replied yes; municipalities would be covered under the definition of "field." 4:22:45 PM SENATOR GREEN asked if Senator Wagoner could take friends to his duck shack and could they shoot from there even if they don't bring the food and drink. SENATOR WAGONER replied yes, but he can't receive money for it. CHAIR HUGGINS asked if a transporter flew a hunter in to Mr. Metzger's lake-side cabin would this provision apply. MR. JOHNSTON replied no - if the hunter was flown in and he was not compensating the pilot (under the definition of "compensation", which is more than in-kind). CHAIR HUGGINS asked what if he paid a transporter to fly him out. MR. JOHNSON replied if the transporter used a point-to-point rate, a transporter license would not be needed. But if the transporter was charging for his knowledge of where to take the hunter, then he would be selling a hunt and then he needs to have a transporter license. If the cabin belongs to Senator Wagoner who is not charging for its use, nothing is required. They are trying to legitimize a situation like Mr. Metzger's where he is advertising and getting compensation for the use of a cabin. 4:25:50 PM CHAIR HUGGINS asked what if the assistant guide were there that got off at the lake and stayed in the cabin to chase a brown bear with Senator Stevens. MR. JOHNSON replied if the assistance guide was operating without a registered guide or master guide, there would be some complications. CHAIR HUGGINS instructed assume all three were there. MR. JOHNSON responded then the hunter has a contract with the registered guide and he would be good to go. He explained that Mr. Metzger was acting legally, but he needed to have a transporter license. This bill says that now he doesn't need to do that. 4:26:55 PM SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said it is virtually impossible to get a state cabin in Southcentral to recreate and asked if this would let big game hunters rent out state cabins. MR. JOHNSON replied no; DNR doesn't allow that. Those cabins are for public use, not commercial use. 4:27:37 PM SENATOR WAGONER moved to report HB 165 from committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal note(s). There being no objections and HB 165 was moved out of the Senate Resources Standing Committee.