SRES - 3/20/95 SB 77 INTENSIVE MANAGEMENT OF GAME Number 014 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up SB 77 as the first order of business before the Senate Resources Committee. SENATOR FRANK made a motion to adopt the committee substitute. CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, stated the committee substitute had been adopted. The chairman called Senator Sharp, the prime sponsor of SB 77 to testify. Number 022 SENATOR BERT SHARP, prime sponsor of SB 77, displayed a chart showing the game harvest data for the state of Alaska. The data was compiled by the Alaska Department of Fish & Game. The chart shows 3% of the harvestable surplus was taken by humans, 10% by acts of God and old age, and 87% by non-human users. Senator Sharp stated the number of harvestable game is down state wide and listed the percentage by which harvestable game is down in each unit and state wide. Number 075 SENATOR SHARP displayed a chart of game management units and the describes the topography and accessibility of the units. Number 092 SENATOR SHARP stated these game management units have either been petitioned (except for 25-C) by the public, or the department has mentioned these areas may be appropriate for intensive management. Number 117 SENATOR SHARP stated there is very little change in the committee substitute from the original bill. Under Section 2, paragraph (4) was added for consistency. Number 135 SENATOR SHARP stated language was added on page 3, line 18 "for human harvest" was changed to "by humans." On line 22, the language, "the board shall manage game populations", was changed to "the board shall adopt goals to manage." That change was requested by the department. On page 3, Section 10, subsection (b) was added. Number 170 SENATOR SHARP also asked the committee to take into consideration, in regard to the fiscal note, that no new money will be involved. Number 183 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Senator Sharp if Section 10, line 29 was at the request of the Department of Fish & Game. SENATOR SHARP replied the language on line 22 was requested by the department. SENATOR LINCOLN stated she was asking about the language on line 29. SENATOR SHARP responded line 29 is new. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if that was at the request of the department. SENATOR SHARP replied no, it was inserted to clarify that if the board delegates authority to the commissioner, the commissioner should follow through on it. Number 202 SENATOR HOFFMAN asked why the CS has different language on page 3, line 18 than the language suggested by the department. Number 210 SENATOR SHARP responded the department did not want to add the language to which Senator Hoffman is referring; they wanted to delete it. Number 220 WAYNE REGELIN, Acting Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, Department of Fish & Game, stated he provided to the committee suggested changes to SB 77. CHAIRMAN LEMAN doesn't know that the committee has received Mr. Regelin's suggested changes, but apparently Senator Hoffman has them. The chairman asked Senator Sharp if he's received Mr. Regelin's suggestions. SENATOR SHARP asked Mr. Regelin if he heard the comment he made regarding the fiscal note. MR. REGELIN responded he did hear the comment. Mr. Regelin began a review of the department's suggested changes. Number 280 SENATOR SHARP pointed out that subsection (c) is still included in SB 77, which still gives the governor the final decision, if there is a conflict. MR. REGELIN stated he has discussed this with the Department of Law, and they have concerns with the way this is written. The court decision that just came down didn't get into the expenditure of funds. So he was not sure how it would apply. Number 300 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Regelin to refer to draft G of SB 77 when reviewing his suggested changes. Number 307 MR. REGELIN responded he would try to do that. Mr. Regelin continued with his review of the department's suggested changes. Number 330 SENATOR SHARP commented language was deleted because he didn't want anything in statute mandating the department to assist the federal government. Number 338 SENATOR TAYLOR asked who Mr. Regelin worked for. CHAIRMAN LEMAN answered Mr. Regelin is the Division Director of Wildlife Conservation. SENATOR TAYLOR noted the department's position paper states SB 77 would amend a statute enacted by the Eighteenth Alaska State Legislature that has not yet been implemented through regulations of the Board of Game. He asked Mr. Regelin why SB 77 passed during the Eighteenth Legislature has not yet been implemented. MR. REGELIN responded the effective date of the legislation passed last year was July 1, 1994. In the nine months since that legislation became law, the Board of Game has worked hard to implement it. He is testifying from Fairbanks, because he is attending the board meeting occurring there right now. It takes several months to enact regulations through the Board of Game process. Number 360 MR. REGELIN continued with his review of the department's suggested changes. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if a correct interpretation of "historic" would be a documented level. MR. REGELIN responded he is not sure how "historic" would be interpreted. He thinks it could cause confusion. SENATOR SHARP also thinks the term "historic high levels" has to be something recorded and documented. That is meant to set the high point of what has happened in an area. It is an either or situation. They just take into consideration what a previous recorded historical high level was, or they manage for the reduction of productivity. Number 395 MR. REGELIN continued his review of the department's suggested changes. Number 426 SENATOR SHARP stated some of the board members are having difficulty understanding they still have the power of restriction of methods and means of taking of game. But he does not want people, the department in particular, to think that "intensive game management" is managing people. SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Regelin if he wants the legislature to amend "old 77", or pass regulations to enforce it. Number 442 MR. REGELIN responded the department thinks passing these amendments to the legislation of intensive management passed last year is premature, because the department has not even had the chance to fully implement the bill. He thinks the board clearly understands what the law says, and the department certainly understands the law, and that it would be best to continue with implementation of the current law. After it has been tried for a couple of years, and if there are problems, then we could come back with some amendments. Mr. Regelin stated the department has just not had time to implement the legislation that has already passed. Number 454 SENATOR HALFORD asked Mr. Regelin if he thinks "intensive management" is the restriction of harvest by humans. MR. REGELIN responded he does not disagree with Senator Sharp. What he intended to convey is that "intensive management" means predator control or habitat manipulation, both of which are procedures. He doesn't want the department to be sued because someone says the law mandates the department to kill wolves. He doesn't disagree with Senator Sharp's intent, but is concerned that the wording might lead to unnecessary lawsuits. Number 470 SENATOR HALFORD thinks the seasons, bag limits, access restrictions, and openings and closures are the least intensive management tools. He thinks they tend to be conservative because you don't have data, so you close it. He doesn't want that in any way to be construed as intensive management. MR. REGELIN replied he does not disagree with Senator Halford. He just wants to try to keep the state out of court, if it's not necessary to kill wolves to reach the goal of increased harvest for human use. MR. REGELIN continued with his review of changes suggested by the department. SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Regelin if the term "approximate" should be inserted in two places in the bill. MR. REGELIN responded it would be inserted in two places. Number 497 MR. REGELIN continued his review of changes suggested by the department. Mr. Regelin asserted that "sustained yield" is not defined in textbooks, or the constitution, or anywhere else, because it is a principle, and it is very difficult to put a precise definition on a principle. The one place "sustained yield" has been defined is in forestry, which has led to many court cases. Number 515 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Regelin if he thinks the term, "viable population" would be better than "sustained yield." "Viable population" is the term used in ANILCA. MR. REGELIN does not think that would be any better. He doesn't have any problem with the sustained yield principle, and he understands exactly what that is. But he does not think it would be wise to define that as a specific number. Number 523 SENATOR SHARP commented "sustained yield" is defined elsewhere in statute, other than the section relating to forestry. It is also a requirement of the constitution. Unless it is defined, it is all in the mind of the beholder. The definition in SB 77 is a simple definition, and he does not see how that could be misconstrued. Number 535 SENATOR HOFFMAN thought the committee adopted the "f" version of SB 77 at the last meeting. CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated the committee did, but earlier today they adopted the "g" version. The chairman asked if there was any discussion or amendments. Number 539 SENATOR LINCOLN moved amendment #1. Amendment #1: to adopt the Department of Fish and Game's suggested changes as submitted to the committee and outlined below. 1. Page 1, lines 9-13: Delete changes to Sec. 2, AS 16.05.050. 2. Page 2, lines 5-9: Delete Sec. 4, AS 16.05.090. 3. Page 2, line 16: Delete the words, "from historical high levels." 4. Page 2, lines 28-29: Delete the words, "but not including restrictions or methods or means of taking game, access to game or human harvest of game", and replace with the words, "and regulation of harvest by humans." 5. Page 2, line 30: Harvestable surplus means, "the estimated number of animals born in a population during the year less the estimated number of animals in the population that die during the year from all causes other than predation or harvest by humans." 6. Page 3, line 5: After the word "harvest" insert "or for herd growth." 7. Page 3, lines 6-7: Delete definition of sustained yield. 8. Page 4, line 9: Insert "goal of" before the word "board." CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there was objection to amendment #1. SENATOR TAYLOR stated objection. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked the secretary to call the roll on the adoption of amendment #1. Amendment #1 failed to be adopted by a vote of 2 yeas and 5 nays. Voting in support of the amendment were Senators Lincoln and Hoffman. Voting in opposition to the amendment were Senators Leman, Pearce, Frank, Halford, and Taylor. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there were further amendments. Number 555 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to discharge SB 77 from the Senate Resources Committee with individual recommendations. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there were any objections to discharging the bill. SENATOR SHARP asked if there had been a decision made on the fiscal note. CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated the committee cannot adopt a fiscal note, although he would be happy to offer it and suggest it to the next committee (Finance). Number 560 SENATOR SHARP added there is no new money; it is existing revenue. So he sees no reason the fiscal note should indicate new money. This information has been indicated to him verbally and in writing. It is reprogramming of existing money. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Regelin if the department would be submitting a revised fiscal note. MR. REGELIN responded that he agrees with Senator Sharp, but if the department gets into wolf control, it is going to cost money. The department is not asking for extra money. He thought he should put reprogramming on the fiscal note. Number 572 SENATOR HOFFMAN stated he was offering amendment #2, in order to keep the state out of court. Amendment #2: To adopt the Department of Fish & Game's proposed change #4 in its' outline of suggested amendments to SB 77: Page 2, lines 28-29, Delete the words, "but not including restrictions or methods or means of taking game, access to game or human harvest of game", and replace with the words, "and regulation of harvest by humans". SENATOR TAYLOR withdrew his motion to discharge SB 77. SENATOR HOFFMAN believed that is the change Mr. Regelin thought would keep the state out of court. TAPE 95-24, SIDE B MR. REGELIN responded that is correct. SENATOR TAYLOR stated objection. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked the secretary to call the roll on the adoption of amendment #2. Amendment #2 failed to be adopted by a vote of 2 yeas and 5 nays. Voting in support of the amendment were Senators Lincoln and Hoffman. Voting in opposition to the amendment were Senators Leman, Pearce, Frank, Halford, and Taylor. Number 572 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to discharge SB 77 from the Senate Resources Committee with individual recommendations. Number 570 SENATOR LINCOLN asked if discharge of SB 77 would include the fiscal note. CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded the committee has to include all fiscal notes that have been received. It is his understanding that the department has enough money in its budget to make the fiscal note a zero fiscal note. On that basis, the committee has prepared a zero fiscal note. It is the chairman's understanding that the bill would then not have to go to the Finance Committee. SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Regelin if SB 77 leads to unnecessary lawsuits the department will have adequate money to cover any legal costs. Number 558 MR. REGELIN responded that any court costs would come from the Department of Law, not from the Department of Fish & Game. So court costs would not have anything to do with the Department of Fish & Game. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the Department of Law has been asked for a fiscal note. MR. REGELIN replied the Department of Fish & Game has not asked for a fiscal note from the Department of Law. Number 547 SENATOR PEARCE stated the Resources Committee cannot submit a zero fiscal note. If the department submits a zero fiscal note, then SB 77 could skip the Finance Committee. SENATOR LINCOLN stated she understood the chairman to say the committee had prepared a zero fiscal note. SENATOR PEARCE replied he did say that, and he has; however, it doesn't matter unless the department gives us a zero fiscal note. CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated that is correct. We can send the zero fiscal note along, but that won't change the fact that SB 77 has to go to the Finance Committee, unless the department also changes their fiscal note to zero. SENATOR HALFORD stated the only committee that can reduce a fiscal note is the Finance Committee. SENATOR LINCOLN commented that since SB 77 wasn't referred to the Finance Committee, she wanted some assurance that the bill was going to the committee. CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated SB 77 will be referred to the Finance Committee. SENATOR HALFORD stated, unless the department issued a zero fiscal note, the bill would have to go to the Finance Committee. SENATOR LINCOLN commented it sounded like they had lots of money to do all of this, so she is sure they will come back with a zero fiscal note. SENATOR TAYLOR said he didn't think so. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if objection to discharge SB 77 from committee were maintained. Hearing no further objection, the chairman stated SB 77 was discharged from the Senate Resources Committee to the next committee of referral, whatever that may be, with individual recommendations.