SJR 9-CONST. AM: EDUCATION FUNDING  2:22:19 PM CHAIR COGHILL announced that the next order of business would be SJR 9. He noted the committee heard the bill previously. He said he invited Commissioner Hanley from the Department of Education and Early Development (DEED) back to answer questions. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI stated that he has questions for Commissioner Hanley. [CHAIR COGHILL opened public testimony.] MAUREEN VAN WAGNER, Special Education Teacher, East High School, testified in opposition to SJR 9. She gave reasons why the bill is not good. The base student allocation (BSA) hasn't been increased since 2010 and teachers are already expected to do more with less. Bills like this will continue that trend and make her job even more difficult. She didn't support using public tax dollars to fund private schools, and she disputed the notion that voucher programs actually increase choice. TIM PARKER, Teacher, Lathrop High School, testified in opposition to SJR 9. He talked about how challenging voucher programs would be for the state's education system. He maintained that research on vouchers does not show that they increase student performance. He dispelled the idea that vouchers provide more school choice. He said Alaska public schools already provide a tremendous amount of choice, and they accept all students. MR. PARKER discussed the six principles idea for improved student learning: professional learning communities, peer review, extra time for students, the evaluation system, family/school partnerships, and a rich and varied curriculum. He said that SJR 9 in its current form and opening the constitution to include private and religious schools does not meet the threshold of improved student learning. 2:28:54 PM SENATOR DYSON asked how Monroe, a private school, compares to Lathrup in academic achievement and spending. MR. PARKER said he didn't have that information. 2:29:40 PM TODD HEINMAN, Principal, Anvil City Science Academy (ACSA), testified in opposition to SJR 9. He said that ACSA is a charter school that has operated for 15 years and continues to provide parental choice within the public school system. He maintained that using public funds for religious and private educational institutions will dilute public dollars and public school students will be negatively affected. MIKE HANLEY, Commissioner, Department of Education and Early Development (DEED), offered to answer questions related to SJR 9. 2:31:35 PM SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if the state was currently expending funds unconstitutionally to educational institutions. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said the areas that seemed unconstitutional were corrected. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if it was his opinion that SJR 9 isn't needed because of unconstitutional state monies being expended. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said he would need clarification about specific expenditures. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI referred to the list of programs in the sponsor's packet. CHAIR COGHILL noted that several programs such as the Advantage Scholarship were possibly outside the commissioner's purview. COMMISSIONER HANLEY deferred to legal counsel regarding the Alaska Performance Scholarship and the Alaska Advantage [Education Grant]. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he had received legal advice that those expenditures are either constitutional or unconstitutional. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said they have been deemed constitutional. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he was aware of any of the expenditures being made by the state for educational purposes that are unconstitutional. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said not that he was aware of. 2:33:45 PM SENATOR MCGUIRE asked if the requirements for charter schools to comply with things like school size and OSHA standards were put in through the regulatory process or statute. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said primarily statute. In Alaska, charter schools are under the umbrella of local school districts and their organization and governance is the same as a traditional neighborhood school. SENATOR MCGUIRE asked if voucher programs receiving public monies would be required to comply with OSHA and Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). COMMISSIONER HANLEY said he wasn't familiar with OSHA, but they would have to comply with IDEA requirements. The courts have defined in four ways DEED's responsibilities with regard to establishing and maintaining a system of public education. Those are oversight and support, creating standards, assessment for those standards, and funding. It would be difficult to meet the constitutional obligations if the private institutions didn't meet those accountability measures. It becomes a discussion for the legislature if this bill moves forward. 2:36:55 PM SENATOR MCGUIRE emphasized that if public funds go into an educational system of any sort there will be strings attached to comply with the requirements of federal law and standards. She asked if he could envision letting public schools erode to the point of being nonfunctional. COMMISSIONER HANLEY responded that it's a constitutional responsibility to adequately fund and maintain the educational system. There's a responsibility to meet the needs of all students. 2:40:06 PM SENATOR MCGUIRE asked about the notion of setting aside a base amount to meet the constitutional requirement for public institutions. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said it was a possibility, and the responsibility for funding resides with the legislature. 2:41:24 PM SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if a private school that accepted vouchers would be required to accept students with disabilities or special needs. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said it was a legal conversation, but students are owed a free and appropriate public education. If public funds go to a private school his expectation was that it would be required to comply with the same requirements as public schools. CHAIR COGHILL clarified that this wasn't about funding the schools; the policy question is whether students can take funding with them. Then it's a question of how far the requirements can reach, given that funding. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said that was his understanding and the reason why things like the performance scholarship could go to a faith-based school. The funding is a function of the students. 2:43:38 PM CHAIR COGHILL said he wanted to make sure that all the "what if" questions were put on the table and debated. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if there was any recourse for taxpayers who don't want their funding to go to religious schools. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said he did not know. CHAIR COGHILL commented that there are taxpayers currently who don't agree with a number of things including sex education in public schools. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI argued that the state doesn't fund churches. CHAIR COGHILL mentioned secular humanism as a church issue and a philosophy. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI pointed out that the state doesn't fund organized churches. CHAIR COGHILL said he brought it up as part of the broader conversation. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked the commissioner if he envisioned placing any parameters on schools that teach particular religious beliefs. COMMISSIONER HANLEY said he has not considered that yet, but it would be problematic for the state to make such determinations. 2:46:51 PM CHAIR COGHILL requested the sponsor to comment on the "what ifs." SENATOR MIKE DUNLEAVY, sponsor SJR 9, said he was happy to talk about the what ifs for long periods, but that isn't what the bill is about. He referred to the ruling in Zelman v. Simmonds- Harris, which said it was constitutional for money to go to the children and the families could decide where the child would receive educational services. He described SJR 9 as not being afraid of hearing what the people of Alaska want. He emphasized that the constitution and the educational system belongs to the people and these children belong to their families. He said his intent is not to directly fund religious schools. If people want a voucher it is better done through a tax credit. SENATOR DUNLEAVY referred to a letter from legislative council and an attorney general report from 2005 about crossing the line between giving public money to private and sectarian educational entities. Many people believe this is currently happening. He cited a correspondence school that allows children to purchase a course from Brigham Young University and tutorial services at Sylvan as examples of potentially crossing the line. He referenced Mr. Nussbaum's testimony during the last hearing about three U.S. Supreme Court cases and opined that the state has a choice. He said his intent is to have a broader education system with public accountability. He said it is the people's constitution and parents are aware of their choices. They do not need the legislature to protect them. He referred to a poll that shows that the people of Alaska would like the opportunity to vote on their constitution regarding this issue. 2:53:12 PM SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI commented that numerous times the legislature has overturned the will of the people. The most recent instance was the cruise ship initiative. SENATOR DUNLEAVY asked if that was a constitutional amendment or a voter initiative. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI replied that was a voter initiative. The people voted on the issue, and just a few weeks ago the legislature voted to overturn the will of the people. He asked if municipalities and local communities would be required to participate if the state decides to have a voucher program. SENATOR DUNLEAVY said that is a discussion that would have to take place. Vouchers come in a variety of types and he did not know if they follow municipal codes. 2:56:07 PM SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if there is recourse if someone felt strongly against using their public dollars for a religious institution. SENATOR DUNLEAVY replied he did not know, but he had not heard it was a problem in other areas. He cited examples of a municipality running water and sewer lines to a church property and clearing a sidewalk in front of a church. CHAIR COGHILL said that if the state gave public funds to the direct educational benefit of the student, the real question is if the state could direct the student or family choices. SENATOR DUNLEAVY said that is possible. He reiterated that he is advocating for an expansion of the public education system where students and their families get to use their education dollars as they see fit as long as the students pass proficiency tests. 2:58:24 PM CHAIR COGHILL noted the bill is written to say, "the direct educational benefit" then "as provided by law," meaning that the sponsor's expectation is that a set of rules would follow this direct educational benefit. SENATOR DUNLEAVY said absolutely. He talked about a tax credit bill he was working on which would include private and/or faith- based educational entities along with a dozen other entities that are currently receiving tax credits. He maintained that the bill would show what a "voucher" would look like. He explained that he was trying to make sure that the millions of dollars currently being spent are for things that are constitutional. He predicted that the future is voucher/tax credit. CHAIR COGHILL said he wanted to have a record of debate by the committee therefore, he would hold SJR 9 in committee until the next meeting. He closed public testimony.