CSHB 428(JUD)am-CIVIL PENALTY: MINORS & ALCOHOL    REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MEYER, sponsor of HB 428, told members the intention of this bill is simply to prohibit adults from buying alcohol for minors. This bill will allow businesses to take civil action against minors who buy alcohol or against adults who buy alcohol for minors. He noted that under an Anchorage ordinance, the Brown Jug Liquor Store in Anchorage is currently using the method in HB 428. The Brown Jug waives $700 of the $1,000 fine if the offender completes an alcohol education class offered by MADD, STAR and the Keala (ph) House. STAR is involved because it has found that adults who purchase alcohol for minors are sometimes sex offenders. He noted this bill makes participation in the program entirely optional. Some businesses have offered to help enforce state laws but the state cannot afford to have police officers at every liquor store, so it needs more volunteer help to ensure that alcohol does not get into the hands of minors. The Brown Jug Liquor Store in Anchorage is the only business participating in this program but it would like to see the program offered statewide. He pointed out the bill has a zero fiscal note. 8:34 a.m. SENATOR SCOTT OGAN asked if this bill could have a reverse effect because a store could collect a $1,000 fine every time it sells alcohol to a minor and then turn that person in. REPRESENTATIVE MEYER did not believe so because of the hassle of going through the civil process for a $1,000 fine. He pointed out that the Brown Jug Liquor program is participating to cover its own costs, which it estimates to be $300. He added if a business purposely sold to a minor, the business could lose its license. CHAIR SEEKINS referred to the language on page 1, line 12, and asked what constitutes an order. REPRESENTATIVE MEYER deferred to the owner of the Brown Jug Liquor Store for an answer. CHAIR SEEKINS expressed concern that a minor could be lured into a bar to order a drink and then turned in for a reward. REPRESENTATIVE MEYER was skeptical that would happen because bar owners would be subject to serious penalties. He said another state law allows businesses to take action against minors who try to enter an establishment with a fake I.D. CHAIR SEEKINS took public testimony. MS. CINDY CASHEN, representing the Juneau, Anchorage, Fairbanks, and Mat-Su MADD Chapters, stated strong support for CSHB 428(JUD)am because it will be an effective way to enforce the minimum drinking age law. It is a civil measure that will further limit illegal underage drinking access to alcohol, thereby reducing youth involvement in alcohol-related traffic accidents. In addition, MADD supports community policing and brings liquor licensees into the fight to prevent underage drinking. She noted she has heard from many liquor store clerks who are frustrated that they can do nothing to prevent adult males from purchasing alcohol for underage teen girls. This legislation provides the same motivational tool as a bill introduced by Representative Meyer that passed the legislature two years ago. It will provide an incentive to store clerks or bar bouncers by offering a financial reward and satisfaction from knowing they are being responsible citizens. Their jobs will become more of a career and those employees often get more training. MADD believes this bill will deter adults from purchasing alcohol for minors, particularly sexual predators and friends and family members of underage drinkers who think they are doing a favor for a minor. MR. O.C. MADDEN, owner of Brown Jug Liquors in Anchorage, informed members that an Anchorage ordinance allows businesses to take a $1,000 civil penalty against those who order and receive beverages from a licensee for the purpose of giving those beverages to a minor and against minors who solicit adults. He provides rewards to employees who intervene in those cases and waives $700 of the fine if the offender agrees to take an alcohol awareness class. He pointed out that virtually 100 percent of the minor offenders take the class, which has been a very effective tool. To address concerns raised by members, MR. MADDEN said a sale does not have to occur for an arrest or stop to be made. Alaska law currently prohibits an adult from ordering or receiving a beverage from a licensee for distribution to a minor. Brown Jug Liquors has made about 120 arrests or stops so far, and has found that what the court has accepted to be an order is when an adult takes a product at the request of a minor and places in a cart for the purpose of giving that product to the minor. The adult does not actually have to make the purchase. Regarding luring a minor in to make a purchase, it is a criminal offense for a licensee to knowingly allow minors into the premise. Under AS 04.16.049, the licensee can stop the minor at the door and the minor, at that point in time, is liable for the $1,000 civil penalty so it is not beneficial for the licensee to allow a minor to enter. He feels that law has been a very good tool. After the Anchorage Daily News did an article on the program, he received calls from other licensees around the state questioning how they could replicate that program. SENATOR OGAN commented that he believes one of the most prevalent problems in the state is underage drinking. SENATOR FRENCH thanked Mr. Madden for showing community leadership in its role in this program, particularly in his efforts to waive part of the fine in lieu of treatment. He asked whether this bill should provide more stimuli for treatment, rather than leaving that up to the licensee. MR. MADDEN said that basically the way it works right now, when a Brown Jug Liquor employee catches a person under the Anchorage ordinance, it sends the offender a demand letter. He likes the $1,000 penalty and the fact that treatment is not mandatory because that provides a substantial hammer to encourage that minor to get on board with the treatment program. If the minor knows the outcome will be the same, whether he accepts the deal or fights it in court, he will choose to fight it in court. If that were the case, the licensee would not have the time to invest in pursuing these cases. He has found that requiring the educational component is not necessary because the minors sign up for it right away to lower the fine. He noted that offenders learn quickly that it will cost them more than $300 to get an attorney to fight the case. SENATOR FRENCH said his perspective is that not all licensees will be as enlightened as Brown Jug Liquors and many may see this as an opportunity to put cash in their employees' pockets. He agrees that may have a positive effect in that employees will be more alert to these kinds of sales. He said he would like to see that the minors who get caught learn something other than that it was an expensive mistake. MR. MADDEN responded that right now there is no incentive in current state law providing for a licensee to not sell to an adult who is purchasing for a minor. The licensee is not obligated to monitor areas outside the premise. At the present time, a licensee can actually profit from wearing blinders. This bill will encourage licensees to be more vigilant about what is going on outside of their establishments and will address a very, very serious problem. This bill has no enforcement costs so the only costs involved are paid completely by the offender. MR. DAVID LAMBERT, the owner of two dispensary licenses in Fairbanks, stated strong support for CSHB 428(JUD)am. He said currently, licensees can go after minors who attempt to buy liquor for a $1,000 fine. That has been a great tool and although his establishments have made no money at it so far, the word is out that minors will get stopped if they attempt to purchase liquor at one of his establishments. A $1,000 fine is a high enough deterrent, and he would hate to see any changes to that penalty. He believes that in Fairbanks, his two establishments are the only two that are going after minors. He said he does give incentives to his clerks. He opposes a mandatory educational component because most establishments are doing nothing now; reducing the fine will not make it worth their while to do anything. CHAIR SEEKINS asked Mr. Lambert what incentive he provides to his employees. MR. LAMBERT said the first time an employee arrests a minor, he gives the employee $100. After the first time, the employee gets $250. He noted that most employees do not want to make trouble for the minor but he has told his employees that they are out of jobs if they knowingly serve a minor. He said he has lost business because the minors go elsewhere. He noted the biggest problem he has seen is when a group of people come to his bar and the minor uses the ID of another group member. He said going after minors entering a tavern is a low priority for police. CHAIR SEEKINS asked if he uses a program similar to Mr. Madden's that includes the educational component. MR. LAMBERT said he does not at this point but that is a possibility in the future. He agreed with Mr. Madden that if the legislature requires the education component and reduces the fine, the licensees will not bother to participate. MS. CASHEN told members that MADD advocates for treatment but CSHB 428(JUD)am is not a treatment bill. This bill deals with deterrents and intervention. MADD believes if it saves one life, it is worthwhile. She said if this bill becomes law, it will help to set in place programs similar to the one in Anchorage in other communities, and eventually provide for an educational component. With no further participants, CHAIR SEEKINS closed public testimony. SENATOR FRENCH said he can see how this program is a win-win situation in Anchorage with Brown Jug Liquors, but he is not sure it will have the same benefit if no educational component is required. He said that a $1,000 fine will be a big deterrent for a minor but he would prefer to have some of that money turned into an educational program that would make for a better learning experience. CHAIR SEEKINS felt some teenagers will learn from an education class, others won't, and some will endure the class for the benefit of a lower fine. He noted that the military prefers to have 18 and 19-year-old foot soldiers because those soldiers believe that consequences belong to someone other than them. That same attitude sometimes prevails in the use of dangerous substances with young people, due to the physiology of their development, particularly males. He would prefer to require a $1,000 fine and an education class. He said the committee has heard time and again that 90 percent of the cases heard in the court system have a drug and alcohol aspect to them. TAPE 04-53, SIDE B  REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said he appreciates Senator French and Chair Seekins' concern and that the same concerns were expressed on the House side. He pointed out that because the program is just getting started, he wants the bill to have enough flexibility for licensees to work with their situations to get a program going. If licensees abuse the program, the statute can be tightened. He noted it is so hard to get licensees to pursue action against minors because it is easier to make the sale. He said the House decided to provide the program with enough flexibility so that it can grow and come back to make changes if need be later. SENATOR OGAN said he believes some abuse will occur, but he would like to get data on the amount of liquor that is sold to minors on weekends. He bets that is a significant amount. He suggested putting some coercion language in the bill or stating on the record that the intent of this legislation is not to allow liquor salespeople to coerce minors to buy liquor to be able to fine them. CHAIR SEEKINS agreed that is not the intent. REPRESENTATIVE MEYER noted that MADD will be watching this program closely and that MADD wants the education component very much. However, MADD is willing to forego requiring the education component just to get the program started. He said he would prefer to leave the bill as is and have MADD monitor how it works. CHAIR SEEKINS agreed with that approach. SENATOR OGAN repeated that he would prefer that the committee stated that its intent is not to entrap people. CHAIR SEEKINS noted that all agree that is not the intent of the sponsor or anyone who has taken action on this bill to this point, as well as all committee members present. SENATOR OGAN moved CSHB 428(JUD)am from committee with individual recommendations and attached zero fiscal notes. CHAIR SEEKINS announced that without objection, the motion carried. He then called a five-minute recess.