CSHJR 22(RLS)-PATRIOT ACT AND DEFENDING CIVIL LIBERTIES  CHAIR RALPH SEEKINS called the Senate Judiciary Standing Committee meeting to order at 2:05 p.m. Present were Senators Ogan, Ellis and French. The first order of business to come before the committee was HJR 22. SENATOR ELLIS motioned to adopt SCS CSHJR 22(JUD), version Q. There was no objection and it was so ordered. MR. JOMO STEWART, Staff to Representative Guttenberg, said the changes in the SCS are appropriate. MS. RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative Coghill, said she would answer questions. MR. JOHN BRADY, Fairbanks resident, supported HJR 22. He said, "The USA's Patriot Act creates a virtual police state with little or no judicial oversight." MR. FRANK TURNEY, Bill of Rights Defense Committee, supported HJR 22. He thought the definition of a terrorist was really broad in the Patriot Act. MR. MIKE LAWLESS, Bill of Rights Defense Committee, supported HJR 22 and thanked them for all the hard work they had done on this resolution. MR. LEE DESPAIN, Fairbanks resident, supported HJR 22. SENATOR THERRIAULT arrived at 2:13 p.m. MR. SCOTT TRAFFORD CALDER, Fairbanks resident, supported HJR 22. He wanted to know if the words "reasonable suspicion" had changed in version Q. CHAIR SEEKINS replied reasonable suspicion and probable cause essentially mean the same thing. MR. CALDER said he objected to the use of reasonable suspicion, but that this bill is only a resolution and it's better to get something passed than nothing at all. SENATOR FRENCH commented that reasonable suspicion is a lesser standard than probable cause, but it is the standard that is used before you stop a citizen who is walking down the street. SENATOR OGAN said that Black's Law Dictionary defines reasonable suspicion as: Such suspicion, which will justify an officer, for fourth amendment purposes, in stopping a defendant in a public place, is quantum of knowledge sufficient to induce ordinary prudent and cautious man under circumstances that could lead to criminal activity... He said that probable cause is a higher standard by 50 percent or more and felt that reasonable suspicion was enough to investigate an activity, but it's not enough to get search warrants for wiretaps and those kinds of things. SENATOR FRENCH said what he reads on page 2, lines 13 - 25, is that they are resolving that in the absence of reasonable suspicion or criminal activity under Alaska state law, no state agency may begin an investigation. He asked whether they think that state officers should be able to assist in perceived violations under the same reasonable suspicion standard as federal law or are they trying to avoid that. CHAIR SEEKINS added that he thought that was a good point and asked if we have state laws that cover the federal side of things like kidnapping. SENATOR FRENCH replied that you can always find some statute that will cover a federal crime and vice versa. MS. JENNIFER RUDINGER, Executive Director, Alaska Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), thanked Representatives Guttenberg and Coghill for the bi-partisan and tireless effort they put into crafting this resolution. The ACLU supported the language that came out of the House by a vote of 32 - 1. Reasonable suspicion is the appropriate legal standard for initiating the investigations and searches that are contemplated by HJR 22; probable cause is the appropriate standard for obtaining a warrant. SENATOR OGAN asked if aliens are treated differently under the Patriot Act than for other crimes since it looks as though it allows them to be detained for six months without due process. MS. RUDINGER replied that the Patriot Act takes many of the types of searches and covert surveillance that used to apply to agents of a foreign power and expands that to any kind of investigation. It's not whether it's a U.S. citizen or a non-citizen and whether it's a routine criminal investigation or an investigation related to terrorism. That's one of the more troublesome aspects of the Patriot Act. It's the breadth of power and the expansion of that power... With respect to non citizens and their detention, I think a lot of that action came from executive orders, but I want to find out more information specifically on the length of those detentions as to whether that's coming from the Patriot Act or other executive orders. SENATOR OGAN said Section 213 of the Patriot Act has the authority for delaying notice of execution of warrant and he wasn't sure if reasonable cause was an appropriate standard. MS. RUDINGER said that issue has been troubling a lot of constitutional scholars, because although the Fourth Amendment does say probable cause is necessary to obtain a warrant, U.S. Supreme Court cases have lowered that standard in some instances. Justice Scalia said that troubled him. SENATOR FRENCH commented that Alaska law has not eroded, but he couldn't speak to federal law. CHAIR SEEKINS said the draft is too weak and ignores the possibility of other federal laws that cause some of the same problems. MS. MOSS said this is the product of almost a week of negotiations between Representatives Guttenberg and Coghill and the intent is to encourage Congress to look at any measures that infringe on our liberties. SENATOR FRENCH said the language is aimed at the problem, which is overreaching under the Patriot Act. SENATOR ELLIS motioned to pass SCS CSHJR 22(JUD) from committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note. There were no objections and it was so ordered.