TAPE 03-46, SIDE B  HB 102-CONCEALED DEADLY WEAPONS  OFFICER MIKE COUTURIER, representing the Anchorage Police Employees Association, stated support for the proposed changes [in Version Q]. Peace officers support anything that provides them with a better tool to ensure everyone's safety through more detailed instruction about what to do when contacted by peace officers. SENATOR FRENCH asked Officer Couturier who would be educating the public about the bill requirements regarding notification before entering a home with a concealed handgun or notifying police officers that one is carrying a concealed handgun. OFFICER COUTURIER said the trainer would inform anyone obtaining a concealed carry permit if this bill passes. The majority of people handling concealed weapons receive their training [during the permit process]. He said he believes once a person has a concealed carry permit, that person would be on a mailing list for updates to any changes to the state law. He said: As far as a person that owns a residence that happens to have a guest that happens to be carrying a weapon, and the homeowner, knowing that the person is supposed to provide them with that information, that's part of the onus that we all share in educating the public on current law and changes to the law. And partially as a responsible citizen of the state we all have a responsibility, of course, to know what the laws are and to obey them. Certainly some public forum of TV or municipal channels would assist in educating the public and those are the options that I see. SENATOR FRENCH said it sounds like Officer Couturier is assuming the instructional courses under the current system would continue and it is through those courses that people would learn the provisions of the law. He said he is skeptical because he believes this bill will repeal the need for a permit and make it less likely that someone will spend the money to take a class. CHAIR SEEKINS remarked that a person would still need a permit if he or she wants to carry a concealed weapon outside of the state because a person will not have reciprocity without a permit. In addition, a person with a permit can buy a handgun without the waiting period because the necessary background check has already been done. Therefore, it is still beneficial to take the training classes to get the actual carry permit. This bill will not make criminals out of people who wear a jacket over a weapon when they are carrying it legally. He said he would imagine that gun shops, the NRA, and outdoor organizations will do everything they can to educate the general public. It will not be required by statute, but if this law is to work, those organizations know it is incumbent upon them to educate the public. OFFICER COUTURIER said he needed to back up because when he read the bill he did not read anything that said permits would no longer be required. CHAIR SEEKINS replied, "You can carry concealed now without a permit - if you do so in a lawful manner." SENATOR FRENCH read, to clarify the nature of the bill for Officer Couturier, the following excerpt from the sponsor statement: HB 102 repeals the concealed carry laws that require permits to carry deadly weapons, including handguns, knives and other legal-to-own deadly weapons. It does not repeal any of the restrictions on where a person can carry a concealed weapon, such as on school grounds, in courthouses or on private property, where the owner may prohibit such weapons. CHAIR SEEKINS noted the third paragraph reads: It does not eliminate the state's concealed carry permit program for two reasons. OFFICER COUTURIER apologized and said he did not have the sponsor statement. He said the support of his organization might not be as strong because the Anchorage Police Department Employees Association certainly feels the need, prior to contacting someone - whether that be on a traffic stop or just contacting them on the street, to know ahead of time or upon recontact that the person has a concealed carry permit. He said if there were no system that allows the peace officer to know a person has a concealed carry permit, he would not know whether or not the carrier is violating. The Association feels the concealed carry program provides a valuable tool that the police department uses daily. SENATOR FRENCH said he believes one valid reason for this bill is that it is difficult for people who live in the Bush to qualify for a concealed carry permit because the courses are only taught in metropolitan areas. He suggested it might be possible to offer the information that the peace officers want conveyed to people before they are allowed to carry a concealed weapon through either an Internet session or a correspondence course. OFFICER COUTURIER said his organization feels it is very important to have this tool as it makes contact safer; they would hate to lose this tool. SENATOR FRENCH commented there may be some way to lower the level of qualification to get a concealed carry weapon permit, still convey the information, and allow law enforcement to have some knowledge of who has a concealed carry weapon permit. CHAIR SEEKINS indicated the State of Vermont has this law; that state has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. SENATOR OGAN said the police officers he spoke with were supportive of the concealed carry law because they felt, "Well, the bad guys are all packing, we might as well let the good guys pack too." He noted when a person is stopped the police officer runs their identification through the APSIN system, which contains criminal records. He said it seems if a police officer runs a check on a person and finds they have a clean record, the police officer would feel there is some reasonable amount of certainty the person is not going to be a threat. OFFICER COUTURIER said that is a reasonable assumption but we live in a world of exceptions. He said it is just a matter of having another tool in the peace officer's tool bag to approach each situation in the safest way possible. CHAIR SEEKINS thanked Officer Couturier. 9:15 a.m.  SERGEANT DAVE PARKER, Anchorage Police Department, told members he was contacted the previous day about this legislation. One of his concerns is that this bill will put honorable gun owning citizens in a higher risk situation. He understands there will be an effort to provide education on the concealed carry laws, particularly about when a person can use lethal force. However, having trained concealed carry permit applicants for three years, he has found [the police department] is able to do a much more thorough job of teaching about when lethal force can be used and about the laws surrounding the use of force. If this concealed carry bill is enacted, he is concerned that people will be acting in ignorance. He would hate to see gun owners get into trouble because they do not know the law. He said the police department has no problems with concealed carry permit gun owners because they have undergone the necessary education to get the permit. He likened the process to getting a driver's license. MR. PARKER said carrying a concealed weapon in the Bush is not the problem; problems occur in the high-density urban areas. He said the current law is a good one. If the law is changed, the good citizens will be the ones who have problems. CHAIR SEEKINS asked Mr. Judy to inform committee members about the State of Vermont's experience with this law. MR. BRIAN JUDY, National Rifle Association, said the State of Vermont is the one state without a prohibition on concealed carry of weapons. According to FBI statistics, the State of Vermont consistently falls near the bottom of the list of states in terms of crime. Last year, Vermont ranked 49th out of the 50 states in violent crime. He said the law is working well; law- abiding citizens are not causing problems. He pointed out in Alaska, one does not need a permit to carry a firearm openly, nor is a permit required if a concealed firearm is being carried for a lawful outdoor activity. Therefore, a fairly wide segment of people are already carrying firearms without undergoing training. Under existing law, a person who is dressed in a manner that is not compatible with open carry is required to go through the government program, pay fees, be fingerprinted, and get on a government database merely to cover the firearm. Regarding the training issue, he told members in the large number of states with concealed carry permit laws, the required training runs the gamut; Vermont is one extreme. Washington has a concealed carry permit law with no training requirement for law-abiding citizens. Washington has approximately 250,000 licensed permit holders. Washington has no problems with those permit holders. The empirical evidence in all states shows that concealed weapons permit holders are not causing problems. He pointed out that Alaska experienced a significant reduction in violent crime after its concealed weapons permit law was enacted. He told members the NRA supports HB 102, as it believes it is good public policy. CHAIR SEEKINS said as a young man, he was a resident of the State of Washington. At that time, he had a concealed carry weapon permit to carry a 22 rifle for hunting. He said all he needed was a good reason for the State of Washington to issue the permit. He asked if that is still the case. MR. JUDY said a person does not have to provide a reason in the State of Washington, similar to the current law in Alaska. Issuance of a permit is mandatory for law-abiding citizens who can lawfully own a firearm. CHAIR SEEKINS asked if he, as a permit holder, would be covered if he puts a revolver in the console of his truck but his wife would be breaking the law if she unknowingly borrowed his truck with the gun in it. SENATOR OGAN said the officer who last testified said it is legal to carry a concealed weapon in one's automobile right now. SENATOR FRENCH pointed out that in the April 4, 2003 letter Mr. Brady sent to Representative Croft about the 1995 changes to the concealed carry weapons law, he wrote, "Opponents screamed hysterically that blood would run in the streets." He asked whether that really happened or whether it was rhetorical flourish. MR. JUDY said that was not rhetorical flourish. In 1993 or 1994, when HB 351 was initially introduced, people made hysterical claims and predictions. He still has the white paper done by certain members of the law enforcement community in which they predicted traffic stops turning into shoot-outs. He said those were the kinds of claims being made in other states in the 1980s that were making the same public policy change. In every single state, the empirical evidence showed that was not happening. He said that "bad" guys are going to continue to cause problems regardless of the level of training. SENATOR OGAN said he believes Switzerland requires all citizens to be in the military. After they get out of the military, they take their weapons and uniforms with them and can be called back at any time. He said that Switzerland has virtually no crime. CHAIR SEEKINS said when he visited Switzerland he was told that policy has kept Switzerland neutral for many years. SENATOR OGAN moved CSHB 102(STA), \Q version, with individual recommendations and attached zero fiscal note. SENATOR FRENCH objected. The motion carried with Senators Ellis, Ogan, Therriault, and Seekins in favor, and Senator French opposed.