HB 348 - VIDEO/AUDIOTAPE INTERVIEW OF ABUSED MINOR Number 0797 The next order of business to come before the House State Affairs Committee was HB 348. CHAIR JAMES explained, Barbara Cotting, Legislative Assistant to Representative Jeannette James, was here to read the sponsor statement. BARBARA COTTING, Legislative Assistant to Representative Jeannette James, read the following statement into the record. "The intent of the bill is to have a video camera or an audiotape recorder turned on immediately at the start of the original, initial official interview with an allegedly abused or neglected child and top record the entire interview and all subsequent interviews with the child. "When dealing with emotion-lade situations, adults' perceptions and memories are not necessarily reliable; and children can be led to make imaginary happenings sound like fact and to finally believe these fantasies themselves. The credibility of all parties can become suspect and an accurate objective judgement is then impossible. This bill would held dispel incorrect perceptions and allow fairness to all parties involved. "I met with strong resistance from DFYS and other state agencies when I introduced a similar bill two years ago. This year the agencies should be much more receptive due to a recent Ombudsman's investigation, which found: "Arguments in favor of videotaping or at least audiotaping are as compelling as those against the practice.... "Administrative conveniences does not justify lack of agency accountability in this sensitive area.... "Where video and audio recorders might have intimidated children in the 1960's, the same likely cannot be said in the 1990's. (Sponsor's insert: I also believe that taping makes the child feel validated, not intimidated.) And finally.... "Social workers questioned by the ombudsman investigator either said that audio taping would not be a problem and might be easier than note taking, or said that a videotape would be the best way to review a case. "HB 348 will help implement sound public policy by requiring accountability of agency action in the sensitive area of state interference in private family life, and I strongly urge your support for this important piece of legislation." CHAIR JAMES asked if there were any questions or comments and called on Gene Ottenstroer via teleconference in Delta Junction. MS. COTTING said, for the record, Steve Grunstein, P.O. Box 32604, Juneau, Alaska 99803, (907) 789-2155, called and stated an important line needed to be drawn between abuse and discipline. GENE OTTENSTROER said HB 348 helped but was not the answer. He referred the committee members to line 13, "A school official shall be present during an interview at the school unless the child objects...." Mr. Ottenstroer asserted a parent needed to be present also. He alleged a child would be nervous without a parent present when faced with officials. He also referred the committee members to page 2, line 2, "The interview shall be videotaped or audiotaped as required by AS 47.17.035." He stated the interview should be done by a non-biased party. The police department, he said, had been known to tamper with tapes to their advantage. He further referred the committee members to line 6, "the department or agency shall make every reasonable effort to notify the child's parent, guardian, or custodian that the interview occurred unless it appears to the department or agency that notifying the child's parent, guardian, or custodian would endanger the child." Mr. Ottenstroer questioned, who, had the authority to make that decision. He stated, a social worker would cause problems. He also cited the case described in the State of Alaska Ombudsman report dated June 21, 1995. He said it had gotten to the point where parents could not touch their children. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Nancy Buell, Director, Education Program Support. NANCY BUELL, Director, Education Program Support, Department of Education, stated the protection of the child and the availability of technology were the two issues the department was concerned about. Ms. Buell alleged the factors that influenced children were trust, stress, and technology. She further alleged technology was not always reliable or available in rural areas potentially keeping the child in a dangerous situation. She stated the department did not oppose HB 348 but was concerned administrative convenience would interfere with the intent of the legislation. Number 1430 CHAIR JAMES asked the committee members if they wanted to hold questions until the end or after each testimony. Number 1444 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON replied it was best to ask questions after each testimony. CHAIR JAMES asked if there were any further questions or comments. Number 1456 MS. BUELL further stated she was concerned about the cultural protection of children. She cited for spiritual reasons some cultures did not allow video/audiotaping. CHAIR JAMES responded she was open to any suggestions. Number 1475 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN said he would like to absorb the information presented further before asking any questions. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Jayne Andreen, Executive Director, Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault. Number 1503 JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, said she was concerned about the initial interview of children who had alleged abuse or neglect. She asserted it was important to look at the children's needs upon disclosure. Ms. Andreen cited the environment must be safe and supportive, and the children must be surrounded by someone they trust. She stated the majority of child abuse complaints did not go beyond the initial complaint and was concerned HB 348 would subject Alaskan children to a formal process potentially causing damage. Number 1675 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON asked Ms. Andreen what type of interviews were being conducted around the state. She stated at one point interview rooms were at the prosecutor's office and then at some point all parties involved were videotaped in an official interview. Number 1715 MS. ANDREEN responded the ideal situation was to use a one-way mirror with a camera in another room. The interview was usually conducted after a determination had been made that it was warranted by trained officials such as a police officer. The idea was to get it on tape for the court and to eliminate the number of times the child had to repeat his testimony. Number 1783 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON suggested to the committee members more information was needed statewide to ascertain exactly what was being done to eliminate repeated testimony. Number 1855 CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Del Smith, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Public Safety. DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, stated the department had some practical concerns regarding HB 348. Mr. Smith expressed the logistical concerns of furnishing interview rooms throughout the state and was afraid someone would not be prosecuted because of technical problems. He suggested officials use a tape recorder in the field to eliminate repetition and interpretation mistakes. Number 1968 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON questioned if bringing all the parties concerned together for an initial interview was the direction the state should take. Number 1993 MR. SMITH replied it was the best direction to take. Repeated interviews were problematic and any way to capture the information needed in the initial interview was less intrusive. However, statutorily mandating this would cause problems, he alleged. Number 2044 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON asked Mr. Smith if children were reporting the incident to a teacher, for example, whereupon the teacher would contact the appropriate authorities. Number 2073 MR. SMITH responded he imagined a child would tell a teacher what happened and because it was not recorded he was concerned the information would be suppressed. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Yvonne Chase, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Health and Social Services. Number 2121 YVONNE CHASE, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Health and Social Services, said the department conducted a study to look at videotaping. The report in summary stated at this point no state had a mandatory videotaping policy. However, 35 states actively use audio/videotaping. The department did not oppose the use of videotaping, she asserted, when useful, but there were problems inherent when mandating such legislation. Ms. Chase further stated HB 348 clearly demonstrated what happened during an interview affected the outcome of a case. She informed the committee members staff at the Department of Health and Social Services indicated they would like to use audiotaping more widely for accountability and training reasons. She lastly asked the committee to consider the logistical and legal issues involved with this bill. TAPE 96-3, SIDE A Number 0000 CHAIR JAMES asked if there were any further questions or comments. Number 0070 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he was only familiar with Anchorage cases and commented it was unlikely a DFYS professional, for example, would be the initial contact person. He questioned if there were in fact times when a DFYS professional was the initial contact. Number 0123 MS. CHASE responded teenagers self-referred themselves to DFYS. CHAIR JAMES asked if there were any further questions or comments and called on Betty Rollins via teleconference in Fairbanks. Number 0140 BETTY ROLLINS said she could not imagine why a department such as DFYS would object to videotaping an interview for the protection of the child and the agency. Ms. Rollins asserted she supported the mandate for fear of agencies using technical reasons as excuses not to tape the interview. She further expressed parents should be notified of the interview but not necessarily present at the interview. Ms. Rollins also expressed her concerns of agencies writing the bill for fear of changing the intent. She suggested individuals carried the equipment with them as small cameras were available. She said she preferred a videotape over an audiotape for fear of tampering. In conclusion, she said, she supported HB 348 because it protected the agency, the child, and the parent. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Charles Rollins via teleconference in Fairbanks. Number 0330 CHARLES ROLLINS said he supported HB 348. Child abuse was a serious crime and the children were worth the expense of such a bill. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault. Number 0388 LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, discussed the tenderness of child abuse as a topic. It was a difficult dialogue and she appreciated the legislature for addressing the issue. She stated it was a surprise to learn in Alaska only certain professionals were qualified to report child abuse. She asked the committee members to think about the mitigation of false reporting and suggested there needed to be an opportunity to check each report. Ms. Hugonin said we needed to look at what was best for children. She further suggested more training would be necessary to ensure accurate interviews. She reiterated earlier testimony that the fewer interviews the better for the children to lessen the trauma. She suggested a solution was to provide a room with a two-way mirror and video camera where the experienced personnel were present behind the mirror asking the needed questions. This, she hoped, would prevent repeated interviews. She also suggested different requirements and expectations for different ages. She said she was concerned about the storage of tapes in the event of an unfounded case, for example. In conclusion, she stated she was concerned about the good faith of people reporting cases and was concerned about creating an environment which would discourage reporting of abuse. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Jodi Delaneyvia telephone in North Pole. Number 0888 JODI DELANEY said she lost her family due to a child abuse allegation. Ms. Delaney asserted videotaping was a check and balance in the system. She inferred there was not a check and balance on the social workers and cited a case where her nephew was sexually abused in a specialized foster home. She further stated Alaska led the nation in false allegations of child abuse and no one was available to pick up the pieces. She cited 60 percent of allegations were false and 80 hours minimum were spent on investigating each case. Ms. Delaney felt a videotape of an interview would decrease false allegations, and all individuals involved would be working from the same report. She further stated all laws on child abuse were written as if the parent was the perpetrator. She declared a video camera was a very inexpensive tool to save the lives of families. She questioned the domino effect on the family in the event of a false allegation. Ms. Delaney declared she had designed a chart to illustrate how the state of Alaska could save money to help our social workers. She stated she requested for two years a grievance procedure after she was falsely accused. She cited there were hidden agendas in the system and they needed to be cleaned-up. She further asserted if there had been a videotape in her case she would not have been falsely accused. In conclusion, she cited her son was highly traumatized by the process. CHAIR JAMES introduced the next testifier, Gene Altig via teleconference in North Pole. Number 1444 GENE ALTIG suggested the teacher should be the interviewer. He referred the committee members to line 12, page 1 and line 6, page 2, and agreed parents needed to be notified. Mr. Altig responded to earlier testimony regarding the storage of tapes. He stated, technology already existed to conveniently store them. He expressed his desire for videotaping over audiotaping and cited the Rodney King court case. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Harry Niehaus via teleconference in North Pole. Number 1515 HARRY NIEHAUS said HB 348 needed work for the simple reason an audiotape could be turned off and manipulated. However, a videotape displayed the time and date therefore protecting the child. Mr. Niehaus also stated accountability and checks and balances were needed in the system. He referred the committee members to line 6, page 2 and suggested striking "make every reasonable effort" and replace it with "the department shall." He also referred the committee members to page 1, line 14, "A school official shall be present during an interview at the school unless the child objects." An official should be present even if a child objected due to accountability, he asserted. CHAIR JAMES called on the next testifier, Scott Calder via teleconference in Fairbanks. Number 1625 SCOTT CALDER said HB 348 moved in the right direction. He stated, however, the provision for audiotaping was not a good idea. Strong, empirical evidence was needed to prove or disprove the actions of the government to protect family integrity. The lack of public trust was the real issue, he alleged. Mr. Calder said he could not think of any reason to trust the individuals involved in an investigation. He expressed accountability was needed in the departments interfering with family life. He said there was an assumption the parents needed to be investigated on the part of the department. He said he knew of many parents who felt the departments needed to be investigated. He disagreed with earlier testimony regarding the age of children and the type of interview used. He felt it was a side issue. He also suggested the departments were accountable for the potential mis- use of information. He alleged there was an epidemic of hysteria regarding the reporting of child abuse. Lastly, he commented, a public review process was needed to address the foster care system as established within the Department of Administration. He cited for five years now Fairbanks wanted a review. In conclusion, he reiterated a strong, empirical document was needed in every situation where action was needed. Number 1861 CHAIR JAMES recognized the presence of Gail Phillips, Speaker of the House of Representatives. Number 1882 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON responded Ms. Hugonin did not have a problem regarding the storage of videotapes. Representative Robinson further stated the budget for the foster care review panel had been cut, and commented that was the reason Fairbanks was not involved. Number 1944 CHAIR JAMES said there was a problem and she would like to work with the Department of Health and Social Services, the Department of Public Safety, the Department of Law, and anyone on the committee who was interested to ensure HB 348 addressed the issues discussed today on a statewide basis. Number 1983 MS. DELANEY asked if the public would be allowed to participate. She further asked for someone to address the incident in Delta Junction mentioned in previous testimony.