HB 205: ALTERNATES FOR LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Number 010 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES stated that the reason HB 205 came into existence was, although the statute had been passed for Budget & Audit to have alternate members, the statute did not exist for Legislative Council (Leg. Council). Due to the nature of the committee being similar to Budget & Audit, it should have an alternate member, she said. Number 019 REPRESENTATIVE FRAN ULMER asked about line 10 of page 2 of the bill, pertaining to the quorum. She stated that currently, one half of the membership constitutes a quorum, and HB 205 states that "seven members, regular or alternate, constitutes a quorum." She noted that on the previous page, it states, "an alternate only gets to vote if the regular member is absent." She said this language raises the question that an alternate, at the meeting in addition to a regular member, could constitute a quorum, and even though the previous language says that an alternate cannot vote, it's not clear that they do not count as a quorum. Number 030 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER further noted that another concern about seven members constituting a quorum is that there are only seven members from each house. She felt that Leg. Council should have to have a quorum, but that quorum should not be satisfied only by have one full body's membership present; which allows all the Senate members to show up, be a quorum and take action, or all the house members. Recognizing that Leg. Council is supposed to be a House and Senate body, designed to look after the interests of both bodies, it is disturbing knowing that one body or another could constitute a quorum. REPRESENTATIVE ULMER noted, lastly, that the language says regular or alternate members can constitute a quorum. It should be clear that members from both bodies need to be present. Number 044 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated that the language in HB 205 was no different from the language presently in law, with the exception of allowing for an alternate to substitute for one of the regular members, given that the alternate is from the same body as the absent regular member. There would still be the same number of people on Leg. Council, the same quorum requirements would exist, as in law, and the only difference here would be to allow substitution of a regular member by a substitute. Number 054 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER stated that with HB 205 in House Rules, now would be an opportune time to make amendments. She further said that one body should not be able to meet and make decisions for the entire legislature. The language should read "seven members, at least one of which is a member of the other body, or require eight members to be a quorum." REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS asked the Chairman if the committee could hear from Leg. Council staff for clarification. Number 061 HOWARD JOYCE, LEGISLATIVE STAFF FOR THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL COMMITTEE, noted that Representative Ulmer's question had come up before. He said there is a difference between what constitutes a quorum versus voting procedures. He stated that the minutes from 1979 say that the Chair, Senator Bill Ray, had indicated that eight members of Leg. Council must be present in order to do business or to vote. This was reiterated in 1981 and in 1984. The voting procedures were set out by the council, and not in statute, and has always been different than the quorum. MR. JOYCE continued by stating that he had contacted Tamara Cook, Director of Legal Services, and asked her if HB 205 changed the voting procedures or quorum requirements. Ms. Cook advised that HB 205 did not change those requirements, and unless Leg. Council wanted, it did not need to be designated in statute. Number 076 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER said that the procedures that have been followed may as well be included in HB 205, as long as members were taking the time to amend the statute. She wanted language added to say "votes cannot be taken unless eight members are present" or just change the quorum requirement to eight members. Number 084 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES clarified that her reason for introducing HB 205 was simply to provide Leg. Council with alternate members, as Budget & Audit has. She further exclaimed that she was "not willing to go any further with amending the statutes, as it relates to Leg. Council, without a considerable amount of discussion between both bodies of the legislature". REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further advised Representative Ulmer that if she wanted to introduce a bill addressing her concerns regarding Leg. Council, she should do so. REPRESENTATIVE ULMER advised the committee that she did not wish to introduce a bill, but just wanted to change the quorum requirements. She stated, "This says seven, and I think it should be eight." She repeated that it was a good idea to have both houses at the table before decisions get made, which translates into changing the quorum requirements. Number 095 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER moved that the word "seven" on page 2, line 10, be replaced with the word "eight." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES objected. She stated that she had an agreement with the other body that Leg. Council reflects both bodies and that each body would have an alternate member, without changing any other portion of the statutes. She restated that HB 205 does nothing different than what Budget & Audit language says, and if the minority leader wishes, she can go negotiate an agreement to change the quorum to eight members. Number 111 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER stated that "it would be a whole new way of doing business around here, if, when a bill gets introduced, and it's heard in a committee, why the committee cannot make changes if a majority of the committee thinks it makes sense. This is a new idea that we have to go to the other body and ask if they think it's a good idea that we entertain a motion to amend a bill." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated the difference between HB 205 and other bills was that Leg. Council is the seat for the total legislature, and thus has the presiding officers of both bodies, by statute. The committee meets jointly because everything Leg. Council does reflects the wishes of the two bodies. She further claimed that it is appropriate that when changes are to be made to the operations of Leg. Council, then it be done in concurrence with both bodies. Number 124 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER stated in response, "Well, let's go ask the Senators, lets ask the other members of Leg. Council, lets go ask the Chairman of Leg. Council. If they don't agree to change the quorum from seven to eight, then we'll come back and discuss it. If we have to do it by consensus, fine, then we'll do it by consensus. It just seems like there's a great opportunity here to fix something and to solidify a practice that protects both bodies in the future from one body running away with itself." REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS stated that if the minority leader would withdraw her motion, she would agree to take the subject up before the next Leg. Council meeting and ask them to have a special hearing on the subject. Perhaps they could get some action from Leg. Council directly. Number 136 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER questioned when the next Leg. Council meeting was scheduled so that an amendment could be made to HB 205, as there was no point in having two bills dealing with the procedures of Leg. Council. MR. JOYCE clarified that there was, at the time, no Leg. Council meeting set for that week, March 15-19, but there should be one the following week, March 22-26. Number 143 CHAIRMAN MOSES asked for clarification that the quorum requirement was taken care of by a rule. MR. JOYCE assured that currently, voting procedures were established earlier and are still adhered to Leg. Council dictate that eight members must vote in order to pass or take action. Seven is required to do business, but it takes eight to move anything out of Leg. Council. REPRESENTATIVE ULMER argued that "this is not a legislative rule, not required by Uniform Rules." Number 152 REPRESENTATIVE CARNEY stated that it makes sense to take something previously agreed to by former Leg. Councils and put it in statute so that it is solid. He further said that he understood the Speaker being concerned about doing something beyond that which you had agreed to, but he couldn't imagine why the people abiding by the current rules would not want to put them in statute. He then asked if, by specifying eight, this committee makes it easier for the minimum number of people to conduct business. Number 158 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES then stated that 50 percent of the Leg. Council body constitutes a quorum, but it takes 50 percent plus one, always, to conduct business. Whether by rules or by law, it takes 50 percent plus one to conduct business. She then advised that the concerns of Representative Ulmer were already provided for, because the legislative rules require that a majority is required in order to conduct business. Number 175 MR. JOYCE restated that Tamara Cook, the Director of Legal Services, had advised him that it was not necessary to add the voting procedures into statute unless it had to be specially stated. REPRESENTATIVE ULMER withdrew her motion with the understanding that the majority leader will take the issue up before Leg. Council to discuss the seven versus eight member issue, and also the way in which votes are going to be taken. She further mentioned that seven members could constitute a quorum, from one body, and have decisions made. Number 189 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES broke in and exclaimed that "they can't." REPRESENTATIVE ULMER asked Representative Barnes to show her where it was written that seven members of Leg. Council could not take action under those circumstances. She then asked the majority members what would happen if the next Leg. Council didn't feel like operating this way. Number 206 REPRESENTATIVE ULMER asked Chairman Moses that he must remember from past years as a Representative how powerful Leg. Council was and how that committee was responsible for spending large sums of money. She then offered to do research on the rules and statutes, or perhaps just offer a floor amendment later. REPRESENTATIVE ULMER removed her amendment. Hearing no objection, Chairman Moses ordered it so. Number 220 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS moved to pass HB 205 from committee with individual recommendations. Hearing no objection, Chairman Moses ordered it so. ADJOURNMENT CHAIRMAN MOSES asked members if there were further comments. Hearing none, he adjourned the meeting at 4:05 p.m.