HB 268-BIG BULL MOOSE DERBIES  1:53:06 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER announced that the next order of business is HOUSE BILL NO. 268, "An Act relating to big bull moose derbies." REPRESENTATIVE SEATON moved to adopt the proposed committee substitute (CS) for HB 268, Version 28-LS0851\N, Martin, 1/31/14, as the working document. There being no objection, Version N was before the committee. 1:53:42 PM REPRESENTATIVE TAMMIE WILSON, Alaska State Legislature, Juneau, Alaska, introduced HB 268 by reading from the following sponsor statement [original punctuation provided]: House Bill 268 would allow the Tanana Valley Sportsmen Association to raise funds for their organization and the University of Fairbanks Nanooks Rifle team equally. The big bull moose derbies would be operated much like other contests already allowed under statute. This will take place during the annual moose season, by individuals that have acquired all the proper documentation already implemented by the State of Alaska to stay within the legal boundaries of the moose season. Participants must purchase a derby ticket prior to the open day of the season. The winner would be determined based on the bull antlers; the widest spread legally taken and would receive a predetermined portion of the net proceeds from the fund raiser. Anyone who enters a bull would, regardless of the antler spread, be entered into a drawing for prizes. The Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association (TVSA) is a nonprofit organization that hosts training and completion events for the nationally ranked University of Alaska Nanooks Rifle Team as well as the local high schools. It is home to a multitude of community and school events; NCAA tournaments, biathlon training & competition, gun safety and personal protection classes are among the many. House Bill 268 would allow the raising of funds to further the use of the TVSA club house and support the efforts of the nationally ranked UAF Nanooks Rifle team who has produced Olympic level competitors. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON pointed out that Version N adds [the Snow Town Ice Classic] to the bill, which would be administered by the Advocates for Victims of Violence, Inc. (AVV). The state has various kinds of derbies, such as salmon and halibut derbies, she explained, and communities must go through statute to be able to conduct these derbies. The capital budget is going down and she has always told her group that she would be behind any ideas it has for fundraising, so that is what brought this forward. 1:56:05 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON inquired whether this big bull moose contest has been going on since before statehood. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON responded no, it would be new. No one has done it at all, so this is what they are asking to do. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON directed attention to page 3, lines 18-20, Version N, which state: "... an activity may not be licensed under this chapter unless it existed in the state in substantially the same form and was conducted in substantially the same manner before January 1, 1959." He asked whether the proposed addition of bull moose derbies is being put into the right section of the regulations, given it did not exist before. However, he then noted, perhaps big bull moose derbies fall under the exception provision on page 3, line 14, Version N, and it is therefore okay. CO-CHAIR SADDLER offered his agreement with Representative Seaton's interpretation, saying bill drafters understand this sort of thing. 1:57:46 PM REPRESENTATIVE TARR, regarding the mechanism, surmised a person would still need to apply for a permit through the traditional way, so this proposal would not impact the overall number of moose harvested. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON concurred, saying a person who is going hunting anyway could purchase a ticket in the hopes of winning some money or a prize. No more permits would be given because of this proposed derby. CO-CHAIR SADDLER added he thinks sports people and hunters tend to be big hearted and want to support civic activities, and the Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association is a good activity. 1:58:42 PM REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI observed the sponsor statement mentions the Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association and the University of Alaska Nanooks Rifle Team, but the proposed bill does not state that they are the specific permittee. He queried as to what happens if someone other than these two organizations would like to be a permittee. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON replied that absolutely anyone can take advantage of it; someone wanting to have just a moose derby rather than a big bull moose derby could do so. She said her bill is exclusively to help these groups and that is how they anticipate using it, but somebody in another part of the state could have a different type if it wanted to. 1:59:48 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER observed that Version N specifically and repeatedly states "big" bull moose derby, but in the existing language there is no "big" king salmon. He inquired about the necessity of the modifier "big". REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON answered it is the name that the rifle team liked and how they are going to promote it. She brought the name forward because at the time she did not realize that anybody could use it. She said she would be willing to accept a friendly amendment that takes out "big" or makes it just be a moose derby. 2:00:55 PM REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER offered his support for the bill, but suggested "ice classics" in the title be tightened. The state has many ice classics, he said, and anything could be inserted into the bill that could affect any one of these other functioning ice classics rather than having it be as the bill intends to be, which is specific authority for "the Snow Town Ice Classic to be operated and administered by the Advocates for Victims of Violence, Inc." He said this change could be made any time before the bill goes to the House floor. 2:02:56 PM REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI asked what the Snow Town Ice Classic is and what the organization is. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON deferred to Co-Chair Feige. CO-CHAIR FEIGE first offered his agreement with Representative Hawker regarding the title. He then noted that he is now a co- sponsor of the bill and thanked Representative T. Wilson for adding the Snow Town Ice Classic language. He said this classic is in Valdez, and Advocates for Victims of Violence, Inc. is a local charity in Valdez that is looking to broaden its revenue base to other sources besides the State of Alaska. The committee took a brief at-ease. 2:05:49 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER announced he will be holding over HB 268 to provide an opportunity for further work regarding Representative Hawker's concern. REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI inquired if any research has been done on whether incentivizing a derby or classic will result in more hunters or more moose being taken in an attempt to make money off the situation. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON responded she has not done any surveys. She said her understanding of hunters is that they love to hunt and right now all of the permits are always taken up. This may make it more competitive or more people may try to hunt, she allowed, but the number of permits will still remain the same. REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI asked how this will work for federal subsistence areas and areas where there is a tier. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON understood that whatever a person must do now to be able to legally hunt for a moose will still have to be done under this bill. All HB 268 would do is allow a hunter to participate in this under a legal permit that has been done by the Alaska Department of Fish & Game. 2:07:59 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he hears this bill as being one that requires people to go hunt. In classics, people are guessing what the size of the biggest bull moose is this year and it is a game of chance. He inquired whether the sponsor's intention is to allow either of these to go forward so that people can guess what is the biggest moose taken in a particular unit. REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON understood the organizer of these events would have to go through the Department of Revenue and follow the department's guidelines for how to set up the event. She said allowing people to guess sizes would provide even more revenue to the organizer because then it would not be limited to just the hunters. She deferred to the Department of Revenue for a further answer. 2:09:57 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER asked whether there is a technical distinction between what is a classic and what is a derby. ANNA KIM, Chief of Revenue Options, Tax Division, Department of Revenue (DOR), replied she cannot answer that question fully but said there are actual definitions for games of chance versus games of skill when the department is reviewing things. In further response, she said she will get back to the committee regarding those definitions. CO-CHAIR SADDLER inquired whether a derby is taking a chance while a classic is what someone else does. MS. KIM replied she thinks the co-chair's assumption is correct. 2:10:55 PM REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON offered his understanding that a game of skill does not necessarily require permits to the gaming aspect as much as games of chance. He said he has trouble calling the hunting of a moose a game of chance because much skill is involved in getting a moose. He said he does not want to merge the two. If it is drawing a permit to have a chance to get a moose, then he could see chance and a qualifier for being a gaming permit situation. He therefore asked whether this bill is actually necessary. MS. KIM responded there is some past history that she has not been briefed on as far as this particular activity related to skill or chance. She said her understanding is that for this to move forward it would have to be chance. REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON inquired whether DOR's approval is needed to split the pot with the biggest moose because it is not chance and therefore [this bill] is unnecessary. MS. KIM replied she does not know the answer and will get back to the committee in this regard. REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON said the ice classic is not an issue as he understands that. Guessing the length of the antlers is a different issue, but to just to go out and take the biggest moose is, to him, a skill and not a chance. 2:12:56 PM REPRESENTATIVE TARR observed the list of activities allowed to be done for fundraising is growing. She asked how much the workload will be increased for the administrative support of these additional activities. MS. KIM answered activities added in the past have, so far, been absorbed by the existing staff in DOR's gaming group. 2:14:17 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER opened public testimony on HB 268. AL BARRETTE said he supported HB 268 and any time organizations have an opportunity to raise money, particularly collegiate organizations, it lessens the burden on the state budget. Regarding skilled hunting versus chance hunting, he said it takes skill to hunt an animal, but it is by chance that a hunter gets the largest moose for that derby. He therefore urged committee members to support the bill. 2:16:13 PM GEORGE PIERCE said he opposed HB 268 because it is a scam to take the bull moose because moose populations are down all across the state. A derby will likely bring nonresidents to Alaska to kill moose that residents cannot even harvest in many locations. For example, king salmon on the Kenai Peninsula are targeted by one special interest group, and now there are no more big king salmon. Now there is another special interest group that wants to take Alaska's resources so it can make money through a fundraiser. These are his resources, he said, and he does not want them outsourced and sold for money because somebody wants to make some money. He urged members to step up for Alaskans and turn down HB 268. 2:18:12 PM DAN JORDAN, Head Rifle Coach, University of Alaska, Fairbanks, noted he took over the rifle program about nine years ago. Over the years, ways have been looked at to cut costs as well as to increase revenue to take the burden off the university. One idea was to bring forth this big bull derby after looking at the success of the halibut derbies, salmon derbies, and ice classics. It would formalize what has already been going on informally in Fairbanks, he said. It was decided to bring in the Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association because it is involved with youth as well as animal management. The hunters are already out there, he said, and he does not believe this derby will increase the number of hunters. It would provide a chance to bring in the people who are already harvesting moose and provide them with recognition while providing the organizations a chance to make some money that would benefit youth, college shooters, and the communities. The more funds from outside of the university the more things that can be done to support these activities. REPRESENTATIVE TARR inquired whether Mr. Jordan would support a policy that limits derby participation to Alaska residents only. MR. JORDAN answered he would have to think about that. 2:20:37 PM GRANT LEWIS, President, Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association (TVSA), related the roots of his organization began in 1911 in Fairbanks and it was incorporated as a club in 1937. In the last 20 years, the focus of TVSA has been on youth firearms education, with the group having its own youth shooting club and training about 75 kids a year in safe handling of firearms. Additionally, TVSA works with high schools, junior high schools, and charter schools, as well as helping with the university. Last year, the TVSA junior club started a senior division and it won the national championship in its class. [The derby] would be conducted under TVSA's existing gaming permit; thus, TVSA is obviously in favor of the bill. It would allow TVSA to get operating money that it would not have to raise elsewhere or have to ask the state for. The TVSA always likes to support the national championship University of Alaska rifle team. 2:22:34 PM MICHAEL TINKER stated he is a life member of TVSA and has had a long affiliation with the university's rifle team, which is working to win its eleventh national championship. During the 25 years he was associated with the Fairbanks Advisory Committee and the Board of Game, the research he saw indicated that hunters in the field always seek the biggest moose or caribou, although hunters concerned with just filling their freezer will take the very first one seen. Thus, this is not promoting anything that will cause a big shift in hunting numbers. It would be nice if this could subscribe hunters to begin moose hunting, but that is unlikely to happen. If, for example, the fee is $10 and 1,500 tickets are sold and a substantial prize is given away, TVSA could still give the university's program about $7,000-$10,000, which would be significant in terms of equipment and support for the team. He said TVSA thinks this proposal will work and grow and that is why it is asking the committee to consider this proposal. His organization wants to get people to buy a ticket and anticipates weekly winners by drawing throughout the approximately four-week long season. An absolute scoring mechanism has not yet been decided upon, but TVSA will be trying to accommodate those who, by state regulation, are required to underscore the antlers. The TVSA will have a couple of check stations in Fairbanks to which the antlers can be brought for scoring eligibility in the contest. 2:26:06 PM ROWENA PALOMAR, Executive Director, Advocates for Victims of Violence, Inc. (AVV), explained that AVV is one of twenty programs that provide services to victims of domestic violence and sexual assault. For fiscal year 2013 through 2014, AVV's basic operating costs have risen over $20,000 for increased transportation for victims in villages, and for shelter, utility, energy, and insurance costs. At the current state funding level, AVV would need an additional $25,000 to continue to meet victims' basic needs. Unfortunately, the current proposed increment in state funding of about $285,000 will be divided by 20 programs in the state, and AVV will need to make up the difference or be forced to cut services. By being eligible to receive funding from the Snow Town Ice Classic, AVV can use this money as emergency funding to meet the projected shortfall rather than making the difficult decision of what services to cut and not turning victims away. CO-CHAIR FEIGE lauded Ms. Palomar for doing an excellent job in representing AVV. 2:28:02 PM DARRYL VERFAILLIE, Director, Parks, Recreation, and Cultural Services, City of Valdez Parks and Recreation, said he supported HB 268 and is speaking in partnership with AVV to promote the addition of the ice classic in Valdez. The city was looking for an event that would provide both residents and visitors with additional winter entertainment in an area where winter goes on and on and on. It is hoped that the event will help promote the city's annual week-long Frosty Fever Winter Celebration, help promote winter tourism, and help strengthen partnerships between the City of Valdez and Advocates for Victims of Violence. He emphasized the City of Valdez would receive no revenues from the event. The city would simply coordinate the event, assist with event advertising, and provide monitoring of the site on behalf of AVV, thereby maximizing nonprofit revenues while bolstering Parks and Recreation's winter offerings. 2:29:42 PM REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON, addressing the Department of Revenue, queried whether [the moose derby] would be a game of chance. JOE KOSS, Tax Auditor, Gaming Group, Tax Division, Department of Revenue (DOR), confirmed it does, adding that the full title of the statute, AS 05.15, is Games of Chance and Contests of Skill. While hunting is an exercise in skill, there is still an element of chance because an animal might not be seen or [the shot] might miss. The proposed activity definitely comes under the department's purview and under the statute, he said. REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER recalled a debate in which it was maintained that poker is such a game of skill that it ought to be exempt from these statutes. This is absurd, he said, but it illustrates the point that Mr. Koss is bringing up in regard to the relationship between games of skill and chance and the intent of this sort of activity. 2:31:34 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER requested a definition of derby versus classic. MR. KOSS replied that classics tend to be based on guessing games, such as guessing when the ice will go out or how many fish pass a certain point. Derbies are based on catching the largest fish, and in this instance it would be the largest antlers, so derby definitely fits the proposed activity. In further response, he confirmed there is no real distinction between the two terms as far as distinct definitions. 2:32:35 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON corrected his earlier question, observing that page 4, lines 11-12, define a big bull moose derby as harvesting a bull moose based on the size or spread of the antlers. Thus, he said, it eliminates classic, which is guessing which ones would be available. He questioned whether more will be gained by a few hunters than by people guessing the size of the largest bull caught this year, but said that is the choice being made in this bill. 2:33:20 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER drew attention to page 2, line 29, Version N, which states that DOR may issue a permit to a qualified organization. He asked what criteria an organization must meet and what the permit stipulations are. MR. KOSS answered that the statute defines a qualifying organization as one that is not for profit, has at least 25 Alaska residents as members, and is at least three years old. 2:34:13 PM CO-CHAIR SADDLER kept public testimony open and held over HB 268.