HB 177 - FOSTER CARE & DELINQUENT MINORS CHAIRMAN KOTT announced the next order of business is House Bill 177, "An Act relating to foster parents; relating to the right of foster parents to have notice of, and testify at, delinquency hearings and to the disclosure of minors' records to foster parents; and amending Rules 3, 7, 10, 12, 21, 23, and 25, Alaska Delinquency Rules." CHAIRMAN KOTT indicated the committee would be taking up CSHB 177(HES), Version 1-LS0760\G. Number 0344 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON, Alaska State Legislature, came before the committee as sponsor of HB 177. He noted that the bill cleans up a piece of the child protection bill from last year. He asked Ms. Lisa Torkelson to explain the bill. Number 0366 LISA TORKELSON, Legislative Assistant to Representative Fred Dyson, Alaska State Legislature, explained last year HB 456 was introduced which gave the right of foster parents to have notice of and testify at child-in-need-of-aid delinquency hearings, as well as disclose to them some records of children in their care. She noted that the child-in-need-of-aid portion was put into HB 375 - the governor's child protection bill - and this bill would take the delinquency portion and make it go to the same level as a child in need of aid. Number 0400 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted that last year there was unanimous support for the need of foster parents to have information on past criminal behavior and behavioral problems; and, that foster parents would be a valuable asset in the treatment plans, final placement plans, and court proceedings involving their children. That was included in the child-in-need-of-aid law, last year, and this bill takes care of the children in the other category that by-en-large have been adjudicated as delinquent. Number 0428 MS. TORKELSON noted that the only reason it was not included in the governor's child protection bill last year was because it was 64 pages long and it pretty much focused on children in need of aid. They were not comfortable with adding section 12, which deals with delinquency, and they requested it be done in a separate bill. Number 0449 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Representative Dyson why HB 15 is not stuck in this bill. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON replied they are very close. REPRESENTATIVE CROFT AND REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked Representative Rokeberg to explain HB 15. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied it is a bill that gives foster parents the right to protest the placement or removal of a child back to his/her natural parent(s) in court. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted he is a co-sponsor of that bill, and it is a good idea. Number 0485 REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked what the material difference is between the two bills. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied it is the right of a foster parent to protest the placement or removal of a child back to his/her natural parent(s) in court. Number 0516 REPRESENTATIVE CROFT stated that HB 15 assures the right of the foster parent to have a notice of and testify at delinquency hearings, but not necessarily ask for a hearing in a particular factual situation. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that is the distinction between the two bills. MS. TORKELSON said it basically includes the foster parents in the loop of the department because often times they have the most knowledge of the children. Number 0539 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON suggested passing HB 177 out of committee, at which point he would look at merging the bills either on the House floor or in the House Rules Standing Committee. He's sorry that he didn't think of it earlier. Number 0572 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said she is happy to see this bill before the committee. She knows how important it is for foster parents to be included in the loop. She knows that when they have been left out of the loop it has been unfortunate for them and the kids. Furthermore, it's not easy to keep foster parents around. They can get discouraged fast, and they aren't easy to come by. She knows of the problems, having been a foster parent herself, but she's not sure, however, what would happen if a foster parent has erred. They should also have the right to speak on their own behalf. Number 0623 CHAIRMAN KOTT called for a brief at-ease at 2:24 p.m. and called the meeting back to order at 2:25 p.m. Number 0637 ROBERT BUTTCANE, Juvenile Probation Officer, Youth Corrections, Division of Family and Youth Services, Department of Health and Social Services, came before the committee to testify in favor of HB 177. It is appropriate to bring parity between the two statutes regulating delinquency proceedings and children in need of aid. He is concerned about HB 15, but as far as HB 177 is written, it is appropriate. He urged the committee to move it forward. Number 0666 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked Mr. Buttcane what his specific concerns are regarding HB 15. MR. BUTTCANE replied HB 15 speaks to very specific situations that arise in child-in-need-of-aid proceedings, and muddies the waters by transposing those into a delinquency proceeding. He would want to look very carefully at that before speaking in favor of merging the bills. He noted that it is a sound concept and that he thinks that foster parents should be treated as partners in dealing with either delinquents or children in need of aid, but HB 15 is something that the department probably would not want in the delinquency statute. Number 0714 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated for clarification that it would not be in the delinquency statute. MR. BUTTCANE noted that HB 177 really speaks to the delinquency statutes. Number 0751 REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. Buttcane to review HB 15 later knowing that it might be thrown together in the House Rules Standing Committee. He would like to know whether or not he has any objections before it goes to the House floor. REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. Buttcane how the child-in-need-of-aid and delinquency statutes are distinguishable. MR. BUTTCANE replied a child in need of aid is a person who has been neglected or abused, whereas a delinquent is a person who has been a perpetrator or offender. In one, a child is being protected, while in the other, a child is being regulated to protect the community. Number 0830 BLAIR McCUNE, Deputy Director, Central Office, Public Defender Agency, Department of Administration, testified via teleconference from Anchorage in favor of HB 177. Foster parents are a real big help in juvenile delinquency cases. There appears to be a notice provision in the early stage of a juvenile delinquency case whereby a foster parent would have to be notified. The agency is wondering whether that means a foster parent for child in need of aid in which that child has done something wrong and has gotten into the delinquency system. Usually, the placement in a foster home happens after the arraignment. He further suggested considering the issue of safety in regards to delinquent children. He referred the committee members to page 7, Section 9, of the bill, and noted that foster parents need to know before a child in placed in their home about their prior records, incidents in that child's life, and their issues. It looks like the section deals with a court review, and noted a lot of the court files have pretty confidential material, such as a psychotherapist's review. Number 1018 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said, from personal experience, foster parents ought to know everything about a foster child in their home. She doesn't understand his concern about not letting them know what they need to know in order to parent that child and to know what to expect. Number 1046 MR. McCUNE replied he is thinking about a case where an adolescent boy was sexually abused. The particulars of that abuse would be discussed with a therapist with a real clear understanding that the information is kept confidential. Foster parents have a legitimate need to know the generals of a case, but the particulars are included in the court's files. A foster parent doesn't need to know the details of the who, what, when and where. Number 1115 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES stated a birth parent knows all about the child from birth, whereas a foster parent has to jump in in the middle. Foster parents need all the help that they possibly can to understand what to anticipate and why a child does what he does. She agrees that the sordid details don't necessarily need to be part of an issue, but certainly the issues would need to be made available to the foster parent. Number 1156 MR. McCUNE agreed with Representative James. Number 1164 REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. McCune whether the foster parents are considered the guardian or is the state. MR. McCUNE replied, generally, the Department of Health and Social Services has legal custody in both juvenile delinquency and child-in-need-of-aid cases. In child-in-need-of-aid cases there is a provision just for supervision, and in juvenile delinquency cases there could be a relative placement where the department would not have custody. Number 1213 REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. McCune whether that is the reason for a gap when using the phrase, "parent or legal guardian." Foster parents fall between the two. Number 1227 MR. McCUNE replied, yes, but they have been given more and more rights and considerations in the past several years as the result of legislation. The buck stops, however, with the Department of Health and Social Services. Number 1249 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES responded that is the way it ought to be. A foster parent needs a place to go for responsibility. Number 1278 MR. BUTTCANE referred the committee members to page 3, section 3, of the bill, and noted that it would require the department to notify the foster parent of an informal action/adjustment, which is appropriate. A child who is in a foster home may be committing offenses and is asked to come in and talk with the department to explain his/her behavior and negotiate a consequence, or be held accountable through a delinquency petition. Number 1359 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. McCune whether there are any qualifying words for Section 9, in the bill, that would make him feel more comfortable. The language matches the child-in-need-of-aid section. MR. McCUNE replied, he thinks, it gives the courts the authority to hold back information of concern. He doesn't have a proposal to change it, however. Number 1419 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said, according to his reading of the section, it's just granting a foster parent - the person with a legitimate interest - the right to look at a portion of the court's record. Number 1452 MS. TORKELSON explained that this very issue was addressed last year, which resulted in the language in the section in order that the court could choose what information is given to a foster parent. Number 1492 REPRESENTATIVE CROFT said he sees the distinction, but he's not sure that the language accomplishes that. The language really says the portions relating to the child have to be released, which is everything. It doesn't say relating to the function or portions relating to the safety and welfare of what a foster parent should know. He's not sure how to draft it, however, so that it's not overly intrusive. Number 1589 REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted that the bill says with the court's permission. She reads it as having the courts permissions "and" a person with a legitimate interest. REPRESENTATIVE CROFT said, "I think that's probably a correct reading, and if it is, then the court, even with people with legitimate interests, they don't have to do it if they decide they don't want to." Number 1644 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated he reads it as the court giving permission for the portion of a record it wants the foster parent to see. Number 1668 CHAIRMAN KOTT said that is the way he reads it as well, and that is the intent of the sponsor. Number 1676 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said, "Slap my mouth. I am more now of the persuasion than ever, that we need to be wary about limiting court prerogatives. My view is, we need to get gutter mechanics in the court system, but allow them quite a bit of discretion. In my own--the judges that I've dealt with, which are quite a few now, in--that are dealing with children's issues are generally very experienced and quite perceptive about these sort of things. My guess is we will not err or there won't be many problems in allowing the judges as Representative Rokeberg says is we know the files for those portions that are inappropriate." Number 1719 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said she wishes that she has had the same experiences. Number 1730 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG indicated that the committee, if the sponsor wishes, could put discretionary language in relation to the court to make it crystal clear. Number 1766 DOUG WOOLIVER, Administrative Attorney, Administrative Staff, Office of the Administrative Director, Alaska Court System, came before the committee to answer questions. The language was part of last year's child protection bill and it should be in this portion as well. The judges are comfortable with it. The concern that was brought to him was that the foster parents get the appropriate information relating to the children, but not information that is not relevant to them, such as personal information on the natural parents. Number 1839 REPRESENTATIVE CROFT referred to AS 47.12.310 and read the following: "(H) foster parent or relatives with whom the child is placed by the department as may be necessary to enable the foster parents or relatives to provide appropriate care for the child who is the subject of the case, to protect the safety of the child who is the subject of the case, and to protect the safety and property of family members and visitors of the foster parents or relatives." REPRESENTATIVE CROFT stated, based on that provision, the committee may have done enough by putting its concerns on the record. Number 1926 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked Representative Dyson whether he is comfortable with the language the way it is. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON replied yes. Number 1956 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES made a motion to move CSHB 177(HES) from the committee with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal note(s). There being no objection, it was so moved from the House Judiciary Standing Committee.