HOUSE BILL NO. 473 "An Act relating to training and certification of fire fighters, fire instructors, and certain emergency responders; and providing for an effective date." REPRESENTATIVE MARC HODGINS, SPONSOR spoke in support of the legislation. He noted that the legislation creates the Alaska Fire Standards Council in the Department of Public Safety. It provides for the selection of officers, meeting schedules, compensation and expenses of the Council and provides that the Council adopt minimum standards for employment and curriculum requirements for fire fighters and fire instructors and their certification. The Council would establish and maintain fire fighter and fire instructor- training programs. He emphasized that certification is optional. The legislation would set goals for fire service areas and fire fighting personnel. The legislation would take affect in the year 2000. The legislation was introduced at the request of the Fire Chiefs Association. He noted that the legislation is tailored after the Police Standard Councils. Representative Grussendorf observed that the Fire Fighter's Association has concerns regarding the legislation. He questioned the impact on volunteer fire fighters. Representative Hodgins stressed that concerns by volunteer fire fighters were addressed in CSHB 473 (JUD). He reiterated that certification would be optional. JAMES WHITE, BATALION CHIEF, ANCHORAGE FIRE DEPARTMENT, ANCHORAGE noted that he is in charge of fire training. He spoke in support of the legislation. He emphasized that the legislation would provide consistent training standards for volunteer and nonvolunteer departments. CRAIG GOODRICH, DIRECTOR, FIRE PREVENTION, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY spoke in support of the legislation. He expressed concern with the fiscal impact to the Department, but noted that the Department is working with the sponsor to transfer the general fund obligation to designated program receipts. Co-Chair Therriault stated that the program would not fit under the definition of statutory designated program receipt. MICHEAL MCGOWAN, PRESIDENT ALASKA FIRE CHIEFS, ANCHORAGE spoke in support of the legislation. He pointed out that the state of Alaska has a daily fire loss of $85 thousand dollars and a fire fatality about every other week. He emphasized that the legislation would help reduce this record. The legislation would establish a Council that would adopt standards. National standards exist. Local departments need to be in compliance with state and federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) laws. He observed that the Department of Public Safety is concerned that the legislation would put a burden on their general fund dollars. He stressed that the Fire Chiefs Association is not advocating that troopers be reduced to fund the Council. He pointed out that the state of Alaska collects $3 million dollars a year in fire insurance premium packages. Fire prevention and training is funded at approximately $1.8 million dollars. He acknowledged that there is opposition among volunteer fire fighters, but maintained that it is a vocal minority. He stated that the President and the Second Vice President of the Fire Fighters Association have indicated that they support the legislation. Co-Chair Therriault asked if there were discussions regarding a private association to oversee the training. He asked if the Council has to be in state law. He observed that there are differences between the Police Standards Council and the proposed Council. Mr. McGowan stated that there is a national organization that oversees fire-training standards. He pointed out that approximately 225 rural fire departments in Alaska would not be able to meet some of the standards that the National Fire Protection Association would adopt. Representative Grussendorf reiterated that there are concerns by other volunteer departments. He noted that Anchorage and Fairbanks are the only communities where all fire fighters are paid. (Tape Change, HFC 98 - 129, Side 2) Co-Chair Therriault noted that the majority of fire fighters outside of Fairbanks are volunteers. Mr. McGowan stated that he was not aware of any opposition to the current version from volunteer departments near Fairbanks. JOHN SHOVER, CHIEF, STEESE VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT FAIRBANKS spoke in support of HB 473. He stated that state standards are long overdue. He stressed that unified standards would met the needs of small rural and large urban fire departments. Training would provide the flexibility for fire fighters to move from one department to another. In response to a question by Co-Chair Therriault, Mr. Shover explained that new persons are provided with Fire Fighting I training. Further advance training is subsequently offered. He stressed that OSHA standards must be met. Representative Davies questioned the difference between standards that would be proposed through the legislation and current standards. Mr. Shover noted that not all departments could certify to the Fire Fighter I and II level. Rural fire departments are not in a position to meet Fire Fighter I and II standards. New standards would accommodate rural departments. JOHN WILLIAMS, FORMER MAYOR, CITY OF KENAI spoke in support of HB 473. He referred to page 3, line 15 and 27. He stressed that these sections alleviate concerns that training would be mandatory. Representative Grussendorf expressed concern that small fire departments would have to travel for training. Mayor Williams observed that the city of Kenai obtained federal, state and private funds for a fire training academy. He noted that scholarships would be available. Educational materials can be sent to rural areas electronically. By the year 2000, every village in the state of Alaska should be able to receive information electronically. LEN MALMQUIST, FIRE CHIEF, CENTRAL EMERGENCY SERVICE, KENAI spoke in support of HB 473. He maintained that the new standards would help volunteer departments to comply with OSHA and national standards. He maintained that the legislation would save lives and reduce property loss. Liability would be reduced. Co-Chair Therriault observed that many departments would not meet national standards. He asked if the legislation would require that all departments be brought up to national standards. Mr. Malmquist emphasized that lacking a state standard that the court would use national standards. He stressed that state standards can take into account Alaskan needs. Co-Chair Therriault referred to page 2, lines 20 - 22. He observed that Council meetings could be held telephonically. JASON ELSON, FIRE CHIEF, CITY OF KENAI spoke in support of the legislation. He observed that Alaska is a large state with different conditions. He observed that fire fighters are one of the last professional entities not required, through certification, to comply with standards. Hairdressers must comply with standards. DAVE BURNNET, KENAI spoke in support of the legislation. He observed that he represents the fire fighters training academy that is being built in Kenai. He maintained that training for fire fighters was better in 1971 then it is today, in Alaska. He stressed that the Council would provide organization. Representative Grussendorf expressed concern that the Fire Fighter's Association has not voiced support for the legislation. Co-Chair Therriault referred to page 2, lines 6 - 8. Representative Hodgins noted that the language was added in the House Judiciary Committee. This provision would provide that two representatives of fire fighters, including at least one fire fighter administrative officer from the Alaska State Fire Fighters Association be included on the Council. KEVIN KOECHLIN, DIRECTOR, PUBLIC SAFETY, MAT-SU BOROUGH spoke in support of the legislation, but noted concerns with the cost of implementation. He observed that recent changes in emergency medical service (EMS) regulations resulted in a 50 percent rise in the cost of EMS classes. No additional money was provided for the additional cost. He stated that once standards are adopted, whether or not they are voluntary, that courts will go to the state adopted standard. Those that do not comply with state standards would have the burden of proving their standard. He emphasized the need to utilize the tax on fire insurance to improve the delivery of fire fighting training in the state of Alaska. DAVID TYLER, FIRE ASSISTANT CHIEF, HOMER VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT, ALASKA FIRE CHIEF ASSOCIATION spoke in support of the legislation. He referred to page 2, lines 29 - 31, "establishing minimum training and performance standards for certification of fire services personnel that are consistent with the standards of the National Fire Protection Association or other applicable standards." He emphasized that the purpose of this language is to allow rural departments to be flexible. He observed that it does not make sense to train fire fighters for tall multi-floor buildings if there are no tall multi-floor buildings in the vicinity. He maintained that insurance ratings would not be adversely affected. The intent is to get the Council in place. Standards would not be put in place immediately. He stressed that the President of the Fire Fighter's Association testified in favor of the legislation in the House Judiciary Committee. Representative Davies noted concerns that optional requirements for certification would become de facto requirements. Mr. Tyler stressed that federal requirements exist. Federal standards are not being met. He envisioned the Council as the compliance arm of OSHA. The Council would help departments meet national standards. DAVE BAUMGARTNER, NORTH SLOPE BOROUGH FIRE DEPARTMENT, BARROW spoke in support of the legislation, but expressed concern with the lack of volunteer representation on the Council. He stressed that fire departments vary greatly in their ability to implement standards. He suggested that a significant number of the Council's members should be volunteers or from volunteer fire departments. He also suggested that the State Fire Marshal replace the commissioner of the Department of Public Safety as a member of the Council. Most municipal fire departments are not under police departments. He recounted bitter experiences with the EMS regulations that were passed in recent years. He suggested that 3 or 4 members be volunteers or representatives of volunteer fire departments. Representative Foster noted that all of his 30 villages have volunteer fire departments. He observed that many of his villages lack the means to penetrate ice in order to obtain water for fire fighting. Mayor Willams expressed support of the addition of two volunteer fire fighters on the Council. He suggested that two of the at-large members could be replaced with volunteers. Mr. Malmquist clarified that the Council would develop training packages that would be delivered to local communities for training in the community. There persons would not have to be sent to the academy. Co-Chair Therriault pointed out that the fiscal note is self-funding. No general fund monies would be used. (Tape Change, HFC 98 - 130, Side 1) Members were provided with Amendments 1 - 5 (copies on file). Representative Hodgins spoke in support of Amendments 1, 3, 4 and 5. He expressed concern with Amendment 2. Amendment 2 would replace the commissioner of the Department of Public Safety with the state fire marshal. He stressed that as long as the Council is in the Department of Public Safety and there is a possibility of funding from the department that the commissioner should be on the Council. Representative Davies and Co-Chair Therriault stated that they would offer additional amendments when the Committee reconvened. Representative Davies expressed support for two of the public members to be volunteer fire fighters; one from a small community and one from a large community. Co- Chair Therriault stated that he would suggest the addition of language encouraging the Council to meet telephonically to reduce costs. RECESSED/RECONVENED The House Finance Committee recessed at 10:00 a.m. and reconvened at 2:05 p.m. The Committee continued work on HB 473. Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 1 for HB 473. Amendment 1 would amend section 1 on page 2, line 3 and page 2, lines 6 - 9: (1) two [four] chief administrative officers or fire chiefs of local government; (3) four [two] representatives of fire fighters, including at least one fire fighter administrative officer from the Alaska State Fire Fighters Association; a person appointed under this paragraph may not, while serving on the council, be a fire chief; and There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 2 (copy on file). Amendment 2 would replace "commissioner of public safety" with "state fire marshal." He spoke in support of the amendment. He emphasized that all the fire departments are registered with the fire marshal's office. He emphasized that the state fire marshal understands fire fighting programs and training. Representative Hodgins spoke against the amendment. He observed that the commissioner of the Department of Public Safety could appoint the state fire marshal as his designee. He reiterated that possible funding would come through the Department of Public Safety. Representative Martin spoke in support of the amendment. He noted that the state fire marshal has more to do with the handling of emergency services. A roll call vote was taken on the motion. IN FAVOR: Martin, Moses, Davies, Grussendorf, Foster OPPOSED: Kohring, Kelly, and Therriault Co-Chair Hanley and Representative Mulder were absent from the vote. The MOTION PASSED (5-3). Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 3 (copy on file). The amendment would provide that only one person could be appointed from a department that consists entirely of paid employees. Representative Hodgins noted that the amendment would only apply to Kenai and Fairbanks. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Amendment 4 was WITHDRAWN. Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 5 (copy on file). Amendment 5 would delete on page 3, lines 20 - 25: "investigate when there is reason to believe that a person or fire services training program that is certified or claiming to be certified under this section does not meet the minimum training or performance standards adopted by the council; in connection with an investigation under this paragraph, the council may subpoena persons, books, records, or documents related to the investigation and require answers in writing under oath to questions asked by the council or the administrator." Representative Grussendorf noted that fire chiefs feel that this is their purview. Representative Hodgins stated that if there is a need for investigation powers that the statutes could be amended at a later date. Co-Chair Therriault anticipated that additional statutory authority would be needed in the future. Representative Grussendorf pointed out that the amendment would alleviate concerns by volunteer organizations. There being NO OBJECTION, Amendment 5 was adopted. Representative Davies amended Amendment 6 to amend: Page 2, line 3: (1) three [FOUR] representatives of fire fighters; Page 2, following line 5, insert and renumber sections accordingly: (3) the commissioner of the Department of Public Safety or his designee; (4) two volunteer fire fighters, one from a community with a population of 2,500 or less and one from a community which a population greater than 2,500; Page 2, line 10 is amended to read as follows: (6) [(4)] two [FOUR] members of the public at large with at least one [TWO] member from a community [COMMUNITY] with a population of 2,500 or less. Representative Davies explained that the amendment would result in one additional volunteer then had been previously adopted through amendments. In addition, the commissioner of the Department of Public Safety would be added. The state fire marshal was previously added by Amendment 2. Representative Davies spoke in support of having both the commissioner of Department of Public Safety and the state fire marshal on the Council. Co-Chair Therriault questioned if it is necessary to have both the commissioners of the Department of Public Safety and the state fire marshal on the Council. Representative Davies MOVED to divide the question between subsection (3) and subsection (4). There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative Davies MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 6A: Page 2, line 3: (1) three [FOUR] representatives of fire fighters; Page 2, following line 5, insert and renumber sections accordingly: (3) the commissioner of the Department of Public Safety or his designee; A roll call vote was taken on the motion. IN FAVOR: Moses, Davies, Grussendorf OPPOSED: Martin, Mulder, Davis, Foster, Kelly, Kohring, Therriault Co-Chair Hanley was absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (3-7). Representative Davies MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 6B: (4) two volunteer fire fighters, one from a community with a population of 2,500 or less and one from a community which a population greater than 2,500; (6) [(4)] two [FOUR] members of the public at large with at least one [TWO] member from a community [COMMUNITY] with a population of 2,500 or less. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Co-Chair Therriault MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 7. The amendment would add, "the Council is encouraged to meet electronically." He explained that the amendment would allow the use of whatever electronic media is available. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Co-Chair Therriault observed that the fiscal note needs to be amended to reflect that the program does not meet the definition of statutory designated program receipts. In response to a question by Representative Martin, Co-Chair Therriault explained that the commission is able to charge a fee for certification. Representative Hodgins stressed that the intent is that there will be no fiscal impact until the year 2001. Representative Martin expressed concern that the Council would interfere with operations of the training program in Anchorage. Representative Hodgins assured him that training would always be needed. Representative Davis added that there would be an additional cost for training at any facility due to the cost of certification. He spoke in support of the statutory designated program receipt fund source. He observed that the definition of statutory designated program receipt is narrow and expressed a desire to see it expanded. He pointed out that the Department of Public Safety's budget would be impacted by the legislation. Co-Chair Therriault summarized that the problem is that the program does not fit under the current definition. Co-Chair Therriault MOVED to ADOPT a House Finance Committee fiscal noted with a fund source change to general fund program receipts. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative Mulder MOVED to report CSHB 473 (FIN) out of Committee with the accompanying fiscal note. Representative Davies questioned if the effective date should be changed. Representative Hodgins stated that the delayed effective date was included to allow time to consider standards and notify departments. Co-Chair Therriault observed that moving the effective date up a year would change the fiscal note. He pointed out that the program was not budgeted. SANDY PERRY-PROVOST, SPECIAL ASSISTANT, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY stated that the fiscal note would be zero in the years 1999 and 2000. She observed that an earlier effective date would require funding for the year 2000. Further discussion occurred regarding the effective date. Representative Davies stressed that the majority of fire fighters are not aware of the legislation. He spoke in support of delayed implementation of the standards. He suggested a staggered effective date. Co-Chair Therriault pointed out that there is no mechanism to pay for the Council at an earlier date. Representative Hodgins stated that the intent is that the Council be set up by statute so that they can begin working for the best solution. Representative Mulder reiterated the motion to report CSHB 473 (FIN) out of Committee with the accompanying fiscal note. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. CSHB 473 (FIN) was REPORTED out of Committee with "no recommendation" and with a House Finance Committee for the Department of Public Safety.