HOUSE BILL NO. 351 "An Act relating to the issuance of permits for the carrying of a concealed weapon." CINDY SMITH, DIRECTOR, ALASKA NETWORK ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT testified in opposition to HB 351. She pointed out that 37 percent of homicides in Alaska occur from hand guns. She noted that only 10 to 15 percent of homicides in Alaska are at the hands of strangers. The majority of the offenders have no prior record. She emphasized that the issue is not whether a gun can be carried, but if a gun can be hidden. She maintained that concealed weapon legislation will not reduce the incidence of violence. Ms. Smith requested that shelters and safe homes be added to the list of places where concealed guns can be carried. She asked that permits not be granted if a restraining order is in place. She suggested that permits be rejected for several years after a restraining order has been in place. JAYNE ANDREEN, COUNCIL ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE spoke in opposition to HB 351. She maintained that the legislation will increase risk to victims of domestic violence and sexual assault. She noted that irrational behavior is increased in cases of domestic violence. She stressed that staff of domestic shelters have been the target of threats. She questioned the need for concealed weapons. DEAN GUANELI, CHIEF ASSISTANT ATTORNEY, DEPARTMENT OF LAW testified in opposition to HB 351. He provided members with a paper titled, "To conceal or not to conceal, that it is the question" (copy on file). He emphasized that it is legal to carry concealed weapons, in the home and when engaged in lawful outdoor activity. He suggested that is unnecessary to carry concealed weapons in banks, doctor offices, grocery stores and other downtown areas. Mr. Guaneli emphasized that crimes in the home have not been reduced as the result of the ability to have concealed weapons in the home. He pointed out that those that work with victims of crime are opposed to the bill. He suggested 2 that the rate of accidents will increase if more guns are on the street. He recommended that mandatory insurance be required of those that carry concealed weapons. Mr. Guaneli recommended that standards for intoxication be adopted in regards to the possession of weapons. He asserted that the bill allows to many individuals with criminal records to obtain hand gun permits. He maintained that the minimum age of 21 years will create problems. He noted no testimony was taken in the House Judiciary Committee. He asserted that the legislation needs further work. He discussed the competence requirement. Representative Grussendorf expressed concern with the need for qualifications for permits. Mr. Guaneli recommended that a lengthy juvenile record and a range of crimes should disqualify a permittee. JOHN GEORGE, ALASKA OUTDOOR COUNCIL spoke in support of HB 351. He maintained that a permitted concealed weapon would be the safest handgun in the state of Alaska, due to requirements of the legislation. He noted that the legislation requires training in the use and law regarding handguns. SHERRIE GOLL, ALASKA WOMEN'S CONFERENCE testified in opposition to HB 351. She maintained that the legislation will not make the state safer for women. She emphasized the potential influence of concealed weapons for victims of stalking. She stressed that the state of Alaska's crime rate is low. She noted that laws regarding the carrying of weapons are liberal in the state of Alaska. REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES noted that the Subcommittee had incorporated several amendments into a proposed committee substitute. She indicated that the amendments could be brought before the Committee individually. Co-Chair MacLean MOVED to ADOPT CSHB 351 (JUD) as the bill before the Committee. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative James referred to the legislation as a "gun safety" bill. She maintained that the legislation will protect the rights and responsibility of individuals to protect themselves. She stated that police have the responsibility to protect the public safety. She asserted that police do not have the responsibility to protect the individual. She discussed the use of deadly force. She pointed out that the bill was heard in the House State Affairs Committee. 3 (Tape Change, HFC 94-117, Side 1) Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 1 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 1 would delete "and locked" gun case. She stated that many gun cases cannot be locked. In addition, amendment 1 would add language to clarify that a concealed weapon could not be carried in "an office of the state, federal government, or of a political subdivision of the state that is not located in a building". Amendment 1 would also require that an "illegible" permit be reported. Representative Martin MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 1. Representative Grussendorf OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, MacLean, Larson OPPOSED: Brown, Grussendorf Representatives Foster, Hoffman and Navarre were absent from the vote. The MOTION PASSED (6-2). Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 2. She explained that amendment 2 would provide that a person not suffer from a physical infirmity which prevents the safe handling of a handgun; requires that permits be granted after 45 days of receipt of the application; provides for an appeal if the permit is denied; and clarifies that the make, model or serial number is not required. Representative Brown MOVED to DIVIDE the question to allow the portion contained on page 3, lines 10 and 11 to stand alone. Representative Martin OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown, Grussendorf, Hanley, Parnell, MacLean, Larson OPPOSED: Therriault, Martin Representatives Foster, Hoffman and Navarre were absent from the vote. The MOTION PASSED (6-2). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 2A contained on page 3, lines 10 and 11. Co-Chair MacLean OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Therriault, Brown, Hanley, Martin, Parnell 4 OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Larson, MacLean Representatives Foster, Hoffman and Navarre were absent from the vote. Representative Martin MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 2B. Representative Brown MOVED to AMEND the amendment to add "or mental" after "physical". Discussion pursued in regards to the ability to judge if a mental infirmity can be determined by the Department of Public Safety. Representative James pointed out that page 4, line 5 prevents those suffering from mental illness as defined in AS 47.39.015 from being permitted. She asserted that the legislation covers mental infirmities. Representative Martin OBJECTED to the amendment to amendment 2A. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown, Grussendorf, MacLean OPPOSED: Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Representatives Foster, Hoffman and Navarre were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (3-5). Representative Hanley expressed concern that a background check could take longer than the 45 days provided for in amendment 2B. Representative James stated that background checks can be completed in five days. Representative James emphasized that the intent of the amendment is to prevent law enforcement from delaying applications. Representative Hanley MOVED to AMEND amendment 2B (copy on file). He explained that the amendment to amendment 2B would provide that the "department shall request background information under this subsection within five days of the receipt of an application." There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative Brown MOVED to DIVIDE AMENDMENT 2B. She expressed concern with the portion requiring that the make, model or serial number is not required. Representative Parnell OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown, Larson OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, MacLean Representatives Foster, Hoffman and Navarre were absent from the vote. 5 The MOTION FAILED (2-6). Representative Martin MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 2B. Representative Brown OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson OPPOSED: Brown, MacLean Representatives Foster, Hoffman and Navarre were absent from the vote. The MOTION PASSED (6-2). Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 3. She explained that amendment 3 would prevent additions to the list of items that can be included on the list of requirements for the granting of a permit. The amendment also would clarify requirements of the permit and reiterated that the guns would not be registered by the Department. Representative Parnell questioned how a history of mental illness would be ascertained in the records check. Discussion pursued in regards to mental health background checks. Representative Brown maintained that amendment 3 is not consistent with other provisions of the bill. Representative James noted that page 5, line 5 states that an applicant qualifies under AS 18.65.705, Qualifications for a Permit. C.E. SWACKHAMMER, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY expressed concern that the amendment would preclude enforcement officers from ascertaining if an applicant has a record of misdemeanor offenses. He noted that the FBI does not enter misdemeanor offenses in their data base. Representative Martin MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 3. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Martin OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Brown, Hanley, Parnell, Therriault, MacLean, Larson Representatives Foster, Hoffman and Navarre were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-7). (Tape Change, HFC 94-117, Side 2) Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 4. She 6 explained that amendment 4 addresses the handgun course for the demonstration of competence. Amendment 4 states that the "department shall approve any handgun course that tests" the applicants. Amendment 4 also adds new paragraphs to read: "(2) familiarity with the basic concepts of the safe and responsible use of handguns; (3)knowledge of self- defense principles; and". Mr. Swackhammer noted that the qualifications would not meet law enforcement qualifications. Representative James emphasized that there is no intent to meet the same standard of qualifications as law enforcement officers. Mr. Swackhammer questioned the amendments use of "shall approve any handgun course." He stressed that the amendment would interfere with the department's use of discretion. Representative Hanley maintained that the Department needs to be allowed discretion. Representative Parnell MOVED to DIVIDE the Question, Amendment 4A would state: "The department shall approve any handgun course that tests" and deletes "and" on page 6, line 3. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative Parnell MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 4B. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Amendment 4A was not moved. HB 351 was HELD in Committee for further discussion. HOUSE BILL NO. 351 "An Act relating to the issuance of permits for the 12 carrying of a concealed weapon." Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 5. (copy on file). She explained that the amendment clarifies that AS 18.65.775 "does not delegate to the department the authority to regulate or restrict the issuing if permits beyond those provisions contained in AS 18.65.700 - 18.65.790. Subjective or arbitrary actions or regulations that encumber the issuing process... are prohibited." Mr. Guaneli expressed concern with the word "subjective". He emphasized that the Department of Public Safety needs the ability to use its discretion. Representative Parnell MOVED to AMEND Amendment 5, insert "This section does not delegate to the department the authority to regulate or restrict the issuing if permits beyond those provisions contained in AS 18.65.700 - 18.65.790" and delete the remaining portion of amendment 5. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. There being NO OBJECTION, amendment 5 was adopted as amended. Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 6 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 6 would state that fees set in regulations must be "based on the actual costs incurred by the department for conducting criminal records checks and for implementing and maintaining the concealed handgun permit system." Representative Brown spoke against amendment 6. Members discussed the fee structure. Representative James indicated the amendment's intent to allow the department to recover costs. Representative Martin MOVED to AMEND Amendment 6 by inserting "based on the actual costs incurred by the department." The rest of the amendment would be deleted. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. There being NO OBJECTION, amendment 6 was adopted as amended. Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 7. (copy on file). She explained that the amendment would delete the option to allow a municipality or village to opt out of the legislation. (Tape Change, HFC 94-119, Side 1) Representative James recommended that the amendment be divided to allow section 18.65.780 to stand alone. This section states that: "A municipality may not enact an ordinance that conflicts with or imposes stricter standards than the requirements of this chapter." 13 Representative Larson MOVED to DIVIDE the Question, the deletion of the option to allow municipalities and organized villages to opt out would be amendment 7A. The insertion of "A municipality may not enact an ordinance that conflicts with or imposes stricter standards than the requirements of this chapter" would be amendment 7B. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Discussion pursued regarding the ability of municipalities to opt out of the provisions of the legislation or impose other restrictions. Co-Chair Larson MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 7A. Representative Brown OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Hanley, Martin, Therriault OPPOSED: Brown, Grussendorf, Parnell, Larson, MacLean Representatives Foster, Navarre and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (3-5). Representative Martin MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 7B. Representative Brown spoke against adoption of amendment 7B. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Hanley, Martin, Therriault OPPOSED: Brown, Grussendorf, Parnell, Larson, MacLean Representatives Foster, Navarre and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (3-5). Representative James provided members with AMENDMENT 8. (copy on file). She noted that amendment 8 would provide that the definition of "handgun" is a pistol or revolver with a barrel length of less than eight inches." The definition of "miniature handgun" means a handgun with an overall length of less than four inches and having a cartridge capacity of fewer than three rounds." Mr. Guaneli observed that the department would adopt regulations based on the experience of gun experts in terms of handguns generally available, in the absence of statutory definitions. Amendment 8 was WITHDRAWN. Co-Chair MacLean provided members with AMENDMENT 9. (copy on file). She explained that the amendment would change the 14 opt out provision into a opt in provision. Co-Chair Larson summarized that the amendment would result in enabling legislation in affect in all areas of the state outside of organized municipalities. Current law would remain in organized municipalities unless the local governing municipality, by ordinance, decided to opt in. Mr. Guaneli suggested that unincorporated areas would remain under current law unless the legislation specifically states that the carrying of concealed weapons is allowed. Representatives James, Martin and Parnell spoke in opposition to amendment 9. Representative Brown spoke in support of amendment 9. Co-Chair MacLean MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 9. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown, MacLean OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Representatives Foster, Navarre and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (2-6). Co-Chair MacLean MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 10. She explained that the amendment would delay the effective date. Mr. Guaneli clarified that section 4 applies to the Department of Public Safety's ability to implement regulations and accept applications. Section 5 refers to the date that concealed weapons could be carried. Representative Hanley suggested that section 4 have an immediate effective date. Representative Brown MOVED to AMEND Amendment 10 to change section 4 to an immediate effective date. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative James spoke against adoption of amendment 10. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown, MacLean, Larson OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (3-5). 15 Representative Brown provided members with AMENDMENT 11. (copy on file). She explained that amendment 11 would add that a person applying for a concealed weapon permit show "a demonstrated need for the permit that meets requirements set by the department by regulation." She interpreted the amendment to allow the issuance of a permit if a person felt that their personal safety was being threatened. Representative Hanley expressed concern that the amendment was too broad. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, MacLean, Larson Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-7). Representative Brown provided members with AMENDMENT 12. (copy on file). She explained that the amendment would prevent a concealed weapon from being carried on a school bus or a facility providing services to victims of domestic violence or sexual assault. Ms. Smith spoke in support of amendment 11. She noted that the Counsel on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault has regulations that define the minimum operating standards of shelters and safe homes in the state. JERRY LUCKHAUPT, LEGAL COUNSEL, LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS AGENCY discussed the lack of current statutes regarding deadly weapons on school buses. Discussion pursued in regards to the definition of "school bus". (Tape Change, HFC 94-119, Side 2) A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION to adopt AMENDMENT 12. IN FAVOR: Brown, Grussendorf, Hanley, Parnell, Therriault, MacLean, Larson OPPOSED: Martin Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION PASSED (6-1). Mr. Luckhaupt noted that the definition of "school bus" was established in Department of Education regulations which 16 describe equipment standards to transport children. Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 13 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 13 would raise the age of qualification from 21 to 25 years of age. Discussion pursue in regards to the age of qualification. Representative Martin MOVED to AMEND Amendment 13 to delete "21" and insert "18" years of age. Representative Brown OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Grussendorf, Martin OPPOSED: Brown, Hanley, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Representatives Navarre, MacLean, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (2-5). A roll call vote was taken on the main MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Representatives Navarre, MacLean, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-6). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 14 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 14 would prohibit individuals from carrying more than one handgun at a time under a permit issued under AS 18.65.715. She noted that law enforcement officers only carry one gun. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Representatives Navarre, MacLean, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-6). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 15 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 15 would require that training cover when to use deadly force. Representative James asserted that the legislation covers deadly force on page 6, line 1. 17 Mr. Guaneli emphasized that there are instances when the law will allow the use of deadly force, but that deadly force is not necessary to control the situation. Mr. Swackhammer differentiated between training and knowledge of the use of deadly force. Representative James maintained that the amendment would add an extra expense to the applicant. Discussion pursued regarding the need for training to teach the use of deadly force. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION to adopt AMENDMENT 15. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Co-Chair MacLean and Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-6). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 16 (copy on file). She explained amendment 16 would require that a refresher course be repeated every time the permit is renewed. Permits are renewed every three years. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Grussendorf, Brown OPPOSED: Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (2-5). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 17 (copy on file). She explained that the amendment would require mandatory liability insurance as a condition to obtaining a concealed weapon permit. She emphasized the Department of Public Safety and the Department of Law recommended that liability insurance be required. Representative Hanley noted that liability insurance is not required for a handgun permit. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson 18 Co-Chair MacLean and Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (2-5). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 18 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 18 would protect victims of domestic violence. Ms. Smith stated that the amendment would provide that if there is a restraining order in place when an application is submitted the permit would be denied. Members discussed the amendment's wording "is not now and has not been the subject of an injunction". Mr. Luckhaupt agreed that "and has not been" could be deleted. Representative Parnell MOVED to AMEND Amendment to delete "and has not been." There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. There being NO OBJECTION, amendment 18 was adopted as amended. Representative Brown provided members with AMENDMENT 19 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 19 would make it a crime to possess a concealed handgun while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled substance. She noted that the amendment is supported by the Department of Public Safety. Representative Brown MOVED to AMEND Amendment 19 to reduce the standard for blood alcohol to the legal level of .08 percent. Representative James asserted that current statutes prevent the possession of guns while intoxicated. Representative Brown pointed out that material provided by the Department of Public Safety and the Department of Law states that current law has no standards for intoxication with guns. She maintained that under the legislation police cannot direct those carrying concealed weapons to take a breath test. Mr. Guaneli observed that there is no standard for "impairment". He discussed laws governing DWI laws. He recommended that the standard for possession of guns be the same as for drunk driving. He emphasized the difficulty to prosecute for possession while impaired. Mr. Luckhaupt advised that provisions under AS 28 cannot be 19 applied to possession of handguns without further definitions. Representative Hanley OBJECTED to AMENDMENT 19. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Co-Chair MacLean and Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-6). AMENDMENT 20 and 21 were WITHDRAWN. Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 22 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 22 would deny the application of any individual adjudicated within 10 years immediately preceding the application for a felony offense. She noted that the amendment is supported by the Department of Law and the Department of Public Safety. Mr. Guaneli observed that there may be some difficulty obtaining the information for individuals that have not lived in the state for 10 years. Co-Chair Larson noted that if the background check did not discover record that the individual was adjudicated as a delinquent of a felony offense the permit would have to be issued. Mr. Swackhammer indicated that the amendment would not increase the department's fiscal note. Representative Martin OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION to adopt AMENDMENT 22. IN FAVOR: Brown, Grussendorf, Hanley, Parnell, Therriault, Larson OPPOSED: Martin Co-Chair MacLean and Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION PASSED (6-1). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 23 (copy on file). She explained that the amendment would provide that the list of permittee is a public record. 20 Representatives Hanley and James objected to amendment 23. (Tape Change, HFC 94-120, Side 1) A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION to adopt AMENDMENT 23. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Co-Chair MacLean and Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-6). Representative Brown MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT 24 (copy on file). She explained that amendment 24 would insert a new paragraph which reads: "(8) a public transportation vehicle including a bus, a train and a taxi cab" to the list of places a concealed handgun cannot be carried. She noted that the amendment is supported by the Department of Law and the Department of Public Safety. Representative James spoke in opposition to amendment 24. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown OPPOSED: Grussendorf, Hanley, Martin, Parnell, Therriault, Larson Co-Chair MacLean and Representatives Navarre, Foster and Hoffman were absent from the vote. The MOTION FAILED (1-6). HB 351 was HELD in Committee for further discussion.