Legislature(2003 - 2004)
04/06/2004 02:15 PM Senate TRA
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
April 6, 2004
2:15 p.m.
TAPE(S) 04-16
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator John Cowdery, Co-Chair
Senator Gene Therriault
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Thomas Wagoner, Co-Chair
Senator Donny Olson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
OVERVIEW: Pavement Research by Gerald J. DesJarlais, President,
and Jack Hayden, Denali Materials Inc.
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 371(TRA)
"An Act relating to the powers and duties of the Department of
Transportation and Public Facilities; relating to a long-range
program for highway construction and maintenance; and providing
for an effective date."
MOVED CSSB 371(TRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 371
SHORT TITLE: POWERS/DUTIES DOTPF
SPONSOR(s): STATE AFFAIRS
03/19/04 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/19/04 (S) TRA, FIN
03/30/04 (S) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
03/30/04 (S) Senate Bill:
04/01/04 (S) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
04/01/04 (S) -- Meeting Postponed to Fri, 4/2/04 --
04/06/04 (S) TRA AT 2:00 PM BUTROVICH 205
WITNESS REGISTER
Mr. Gerald DesJarlais
Denali Materials
th
3815 W. 40 Ave. A
Anchorage AK 99517
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented pavement research overview.
Mr. Jack Hayden
Denali Materials
th
3815 W. 40 Ave. A
Anchorage AK 99517
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented pavement research overview.
Mr. Doug Letch
Staff to Senator Gary Stevens
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 371 for the sponsor.
Ms. Nona Wilson, Legislative Liaison
Department of Transportation &
Public Facilities
3132 Channel Dr.
Juneau, AK 99801-7898
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 371.
Mr. Bob Doll
Juneau AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 371.
Ms. Dee Essert
Sand Lake AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes SB 371.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 04-16, SIDE A
^OVERVIEW: PAVEMENT RESEARCH BY GERALD DESJARLAIS AND JACK
HAYDEN OF DENALI MATERIALS
CO-CHAIR JOHN COWDERY called the Senate Transportation Standing
Committee meeting to order at 2:15 p.m. Present were Senators
Therriault, Lincoln and Co-Chair Cowdery. The first order of
business to come before the committee was the asphalt overview
by Jack Hayden and Gerald DesJarlais with Denali Materials. This
issue was prompted by the rutting in some of the asphalt roads
in the Anchorage area.
MR. HAYDEN said Denali Materials makes liquid asphalt products
and does a lot of work for the Alaska Department of
Transportation and Public Facilities (DOTPF). Alaska has unique
conditions that create challenges for them. He said the working
life on many heavily traveled roads is five years or less as
compared to 20 years down south; some have rutted almost
immediately after paving. He reviewed different products
available in Alaska saying that the one oil that is available
produces a soft grade of liquid asphalt. He said that Chevron
was the only producer of liquid asphalt in the state for years,
but left because it was more hassle than it was worth to be
here. There are two refineries in the state and it's unrealistic
to think they are going to spend a lot of money to accommodate a
relatively small market.
He explained that polymer, a form of rubber derived from
petroleum, can be added to asphalt and it forms a rubber mesh
within the liquid asphalt. Because it's elastic, it will fill up
cracks as they develop. It's been effective in many areas,
although there have been some terrible failures, as seen with
rutting. Polymer cracks at the cold end. Another solution was
developed in Europe to reduce its rutting problem with the use
of stone matrix asphalt. The difference is that Europe has
large stone available to use.
CO-CHAIR WAGONER said the last thing the state of Washington
puts on its roadbeds before blacktop is a 6 to 8 inch gravel
lift. "What percentage of the rutting is caused by this?"
MR. HAYDEN replied a third to a half. He continued saying that
the gravel in Alaska is much smaller. Serious research needs to
be done in this area. Almost all of the materials used in Alaska
are river gravel, which are basically round. It is run through a
series of crushers to break it down to a uniform grade with
fractured faces. He said that studded tires are probably not the
biggest contributor to rutting, but rather pavement flow and
sub-grade movement.
CO-CHAIR COWDERY commented that he has seen asphalt up over the
gutter and knew that came from grade movement.
SENATOR LINCOLN said that studded tires were identified in a DOT
study about 10 years ago as making ruts over time. She didn't
know if a final analysis was performed or not.
MR. DESJARLAIS said one of reasons he is testifying today is to
get political support for a grant Denali Materials has applied
for with the University of Alaska. He has looked at the DOT's
rut tester, which now has had a piston added, to simulate
studded tire wear, but another rut tester with a wheel produces
about the same amount of wear.
He has just returned from a trip to Arizona that has solved the
asphalt portion of rutting by putting 20 percent shredded tire
rubber in it. It makes a very resilient upper surface, but only
one inch is laid on a very hard base. It is almost impervious to
studded tire wear and water infiltration to soften the sub-
grade.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she heard the use of recycled rubber in
asphalt is very slippery.
MR. DESJARLAIS replied that it actually improves traction and
reduces tire noise by six decibels at 100 ft. For the research
grant, he would take apart failing roads and figure out why they
failed, then, come up with design criteria for experimental
sections of road.
MR. HAYDEN added that the design work would be done in the lab
where it's much cheaper to make a mistake. Different parts of
the state might have different design requirements because of
different weather conditions. The grant is for $200,000.
SENATOR OLSON asked if the grant is for studying asphalt or the
whole road system.
MR. HAYDEN replied that it is for a road section.
SENATOR OLSON asked how they could study the sub-grade material
in a lab.
MR. HAYDEN replied, "You don't ever pave on top of native soil
in Alaska. Never. You always build the sub grade. It's just a
question of how deep you build it." He said that unsuitable
soils will be taken out like clays and silt - that kind of thing
- that are susceptible to frost.
CO-CHAIR WAGONER asked what is wrong with the mountains of
material in Alaska.
MR. HAYDEN replied that the problem is if you're going to use
quarry aggregate, which is quite expensive, it has to be the
kind that will stand up to heat, cold and wear. The most
prevalent aggregate available to them in Alaska is river gravel.
"I think we can design mixes using that that will work fine...."
MR. DESJARLAIS explained that asphalt is elastic and if you run
a truck over it, it tends to flow out.
The rubber brings it back. If you run a truck fast
over it, ordinary asphalt will never deform. It's at
slow speeds and intersections where cars are getting
traction taking off or slowing down - that's where you
really have your damage.
MR. HAYDEN said he didn't want to focus entirely on rubber, but
he thought it would work. It is one of the aspects that should
be studied carefully.
SENATOR OLSON asked if cracked asphalt roads could just be
resurfaced and resealed.
MR. HAYDEN replied that is correct as long as it hasn't been
deformed too badly.
Unless you do the whole structure, no one thing is
going to solve it. They [Arizona] put down a very hard
asphalt. You've got to build a base under asphalt,
because it's flexible. So,... you put black base,
asphalt treated base, which they do in Washington a
lot. That's what the state has just started doing....
Then put yourself down a good hard polymer modified
asphalt - say two or three inches - and then cap it
off with this thin lip.
MR. DESJARLAIS said the best mix for each place would be figured
out using native gravels. He noted incredulously that DOT is
considering barging limestone from Seattle to do Anchorage
streets with. "This could easily save millions a year...."
SENATOR OLSON asked how the asphalt with rubber added acts with
water erosion or when petroleum products are spilled on it.
MR. DESJARLAIS replied that rubber asphalt is more resistant
than regular asphalt. He pointed out that the newer tires are
made of stronger materials.
They have anti-oxidants and flex materials in them;
they have an adhesive in them that sticks the asphalt
together better; they've got carbon black which is
very resistant to wear. They've got a lot of good
things.
MR. HAYDEN said one of the causes of pavement failure is the
longitudinal joint where the mat meets. He showed the committee
a crack sealer that he would apply between the joints before the
second pavement is placed.
CO-CHAIR WAGONER asked how wide his pavers are.
MR. HAYDEN replied about 16 ft., which saves maintenance because
of fewer joints. Airports require 25 ft.
CO-CHAIR COWDERY thanked the men for their testimony and closed
the hearing.
SB 371-POWERS/DUTIES DOTPF
CO-CHAIR COWDERY announced SB 371 to be up for consideration.
SENATOR THERRIAULT moved to adopt CSSB 371(TRA), version /D.
There were no objections and it was so ordered.
MR. DOUG LETCH, staff to Senator Gary Stevens, sponsor,
explained that the CS deletes page 3, line 22 - page 4, line 8.
MS. NONA WILSON, Legislative Liaison, Department of
Transportation and Public Facilities (DOTPF), said she would
answer questions. She noted a rebuttal statement to Jeffery
Parker's letter of March 25 from the department in the committee
packets.
CO-CHAIR WAGONER said the members could do their own comparisons
since they had the documents to go through.
MR. BOB DOLL, former director of Southeast Region of DOT, said:
It does not seem to me to make for good government to
reduce the amount of information that the legislature
and the public have in regard to the projects that DOT
proposes to undertake. This is, of course, especially
true now that the flow of federal transportation money
seems to be ever increasing.
He said that the legislatures from the previous two terms wanted
the benefits of an analysis to consider the projects in that
period of time. He asked the committee to consider what the
elimination of it would accomplish. DOTPF can conduct whatever
kind of analysis it wants; it is capable of publishing
regulations that would address most of its concerns. He thought
that a cost benefit analysis was a reasonable exercise of the
legislative oversight process over the Department of
Transportation and how its funds are spent. It provides data
regarding proposed projects that can be obtained in no other way
and does not put an unreasonable burden on the department.
TAPE 04-16, SIDE B
MR. JEFF PARKER, plaintiff's counsel, in Trout Unlimited and Bob
Gillam versus Alaska Department of Transportation and Public
Facilities (DOTPF), had four concerns:
First, the bill should at least state the name of the
court case correctly, which it doesn't do.
Second, section 1 is directed towards the injunction
issued in January, which will probably only remain in
effect until July 2004, because that is the date which
the DOT has told the court when it would complete the
cost benefit analysis pursuant to the court order.
Nothing would be gained by overturning the injunction.
What would be lost is the information available to the
legislature that should address whether or not the
project is cost effective for purposes of budgeting.
Thirdly, this bill is eliminating the only objective
criteria in state statute for determining whether one
project or another is more worthy. Without those
criteria, I would like you to put on record how those
prioritization decisions would be made.
Fourthly, the draft Valdez Regional Transportation
Plan that was released January 5 shows $1.2 billion in
the out years in new road projects. The Southwest
region has a $379 million King Salmon to Chignik Road.
Another $100 million is proposed for new roads from
Williams Port to Iliamna, plus South Central has the
Knik River Bridge proposal, which has funds earmarked.
He estimated $2 billion to $3 billion in road projects in the
next 20 years or about $150 million per year. Current federal
funding is about $305 million per year and the cost benefits
pencil out very unfavorably.
CO-CHAIR WAGONER interrupted to point out that a lot of the
projects he is alluding to don't have a lot to do with this
project.
MR. PARKER said he was trying to explain why repealing a cost
benefit analysis is detrimental to good decisions making.
MS. WILSON referred Mr. Parker to the DOT letter of rebuttal, a
section of which she highlighted:
DOT agrees that the consideration of both costs and
benefits is useful and indeed appropriate for many,
but not all projects. What we consider inappropriate
isn't being mandatory on every new project regardless
of type, size or urgency. I would also point out that
cost and benefit consideration is used routinely
during project design even though it's not required by
state law. [In] AS 44.42.050 it's required for project
selection, but not during project design. But we still
do it.
The key point is that CB [cost benefit] analysis
should be used where it's meaningful and not
universally.
CO-CHAIR WAGONER said that's why the department doesn't object
to it being taken out of the statute.
MS. DEE ESSERT, Sand Lake CC, opposed SB 371. She said the cost
of Anchorage Metropolitan Area Transportation Study (AMATS)
projects has escalated because engineers and project managers
fail to consider hidden costs of environmental impacts and other
problems. The Knowles Coastal Trail south extension has
increased from $12 million to $37 million. A recent cost
estimate was $80 million considering legal costs. The
legislature needs to shape the planning process by adding
statutes with objective criteria to the planning process.
MS. WILSON said that a required cost benefit analysis would
interfere with every project that DOT is running, including
those in construction phase, like the Soldotna Bridge project,
which has been completely halted.
CO-CHAIR COWDERY moved to pass CSSB 371(TRA) from committee with
individual recommendations and asked for unanimous consent.
There were no objections and it was so ordered. There being no
further business to come before the committee, Co-Chair Wagoner
adjourned the meeting at 3:20 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|