01/20/2004 03:35 PM Senate STA
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
January 20, 2004
3:35 p.m.
TAPE (S) 04-1
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Gary Stevens, Chair
Senator John Cowdery, Vice Chair
Senator Bert Stedman
Senator Gretchen Guess
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Lyman Hoffman
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 190
"An Act adding certain state-owned land and water to the Kenai
River Special Management Area; relating to the mineral estate of
the state-owned land and water in the Kenai River Special
Management Area; amending the qualifications for members of the
Kenai River Special Management Area advisory board; and
providing for an effective date."
MOVED CSSB 190(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 167
"An Act relating to introduction of measures in the legislature;
and providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
SENATE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 8
Proposing amendments to the Uniform Rules of the Alaska State
Legislature relating to the introduction of measures; and
providing for an effective date for the amendments.
HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: SB 190
SHORT TITLE: KENAI RIVER SPECIAL MANAGEMENT AREA
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) WAGONER
04/16/03 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/16/03 (S) STA, RES
01/20/04 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
BILL: SB 167
SHORT TITLE: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) GUESS
04/02/03 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/02/03 (S) STA, JUD
01/20/04 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
BILL: SCR 8
SHORT TITLE: AMENDING UNIFORM RULES 37 AND 44
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) GUESS
04/02/03 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/02/03 (S) STA, JUD
01/20/04 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
WITNESS REGISTER
Senator Thomas Wagoner
State Capitol, Room 427
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 190
Pete Panarese
Department of Natural Resources
Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation
400 Willoughby Ave.
Juneau, AK 99801-1724
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 190
Ted Wellman
Anchorage, AK 99513
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 190
Doug Vincent-Lang
Division of Sport Fish
Department of Fish & Game
PO Box 25526
Juneau, AK 99802-5226
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 190
William T. Arnold
Sterling, AK 99672
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports SB 167
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 04-1, SIDE A
CHAIR GARY STEVENS called the Senate State Affairs Standing
Committee meeting to order at 3:35 p.m. Present were Senators
Stedman, Guess and Chair Gary Stevens. Senator Cowdery arrived
shortly thereafter.
SB 190-KENAI RIVER SPECIAL MANAGEMENT AREA
CHAIR GARY STEVENS announced SB 190 to be up for consideration.
He advised that committee substitute (CS) 23-LS0961\H was
offered and asked for a motion to adopt it as the working
document.
SENATOR GRETCHEN GUESS motioned to adopt the \H version of SB
190 as the working document. There was no objection and it was
so ordered.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS asked Senator Wagoner to step forward.
SENATOR THOMAS WAGONER, sponsor, introduced Amy Seitz and said
that she worked on SB 190 when she was staff to Representative
Lancaster.
He explained that the issue has some history. In 2001,
Representative Lancaster introduced a bill to add nearly 8,000
acres to the Kenai River Special Management Area. Because of
problems with a federal energy regulation commission, 3,500
acres in the Kenai Lake area were removed. In subsequent
hearings, the acreage was further reduced to 536 acres, most of
which were acquired as habitat recreation lands with Exxon
Valdez Oil Spill (EVOS) money.
SENATOR WAGONER pointed out that SB 190 includes the provision
that makes agency personnel ex officio or non-voting members.
State and federal employees are valuable for their expertise,
but he said he firmly supports the concept of a true citizen's
advisory council.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS clarified that the only difference between
the original bill and the \H version is the composition of the
advisory board. The change is on page 5, lines 11-13 and says
that employees, elected officials or representatives of a state
or federal government who were members of the advisory board
would serve as ex officio or non-voting members.
SENATOR GRETCHEN GUESS noted that "adjacent to the Kenai River"
was added after "municipalities" on page 5, line 9 to clarify
that the advisory board represents specific municipalities.
SENATOR WAGONER advised that provision was added to preclude the
difficulty the Aquaculture Association experienced when an
interpretation became too broad.
SENATOR JOHN COWDERY commented that catching a salmon fishing on
the Kenai River is a large industry.
SENATOR WAGONER agreed saying it's a big part of the summertime
economy of Kenai, Soldotna and the upper river area. In
particular, the upper river area is becoming world known for
float trips and fly-fishing and the resource needs to be
protected.
He pointed out that SB 190 is basically the same bill that the
Senate Resources Committee passed in 2002 [HB 165] at which time
there was considerable public comment regarding adding land to
the Kenai River Special Management Area. He noted that most of
the land under consideration is not suitable for development
because of wetland issues, but any additional development on the
Kenai River threatens the continued viability of the salmon
runs.
To address the concern regarding removing federal and state
employees from the board, he pointed out that they were made ex
officio members and would continue to provide expertise and
guidance. He described the bill as " all in all, a pretty good
bill " and noted that the controversial lands had been removed.
He asked if there were any questions.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS referred to page 5, lines 2-5 and asked for
clarification that this allows for oil and gas leasing.
SENATOR WAGONER asked that Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
representative to elaborate.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS announced that Gary Morrison and Pete
Panarese from Anchorage and Chris Degernes from Soldotna were
available via teleconference and asked whether any of the men
would like to address oil and gas questions.
PETE PANARESE, Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation, DNR,
reported that he reviewed the language in the CS and determined
that the wording was simply reworked to make a more readable
document.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS observed that the bill states that oil and
gas leasing is open on the lands and follows state law.
MR. PANARESE agreed saying, "The state lands."
SENATOR GUESS asked Senator Wagoner to explain the duties and
authority of the Kenai River Special Management Area Advisory
Board.
SENATOR WAGONER acknowledged that he wasn't an expert and was
carrying the bill at Representative Lancaster's request. He said
he knows they are instrumental in reviewing the Kenai River
system from the mouth up through Kenai Lake. They work closely
with the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation and the Kenai
River Center. It is a user group advisory board that is composed
of citizens at large, commercial fishermen, and sport fishing
guides. With regard to their exact authority, he admitted he was
unsure because most of the actual enforcement and regulation
authority rests with the state parks.
SENATOR GUESS referred to page 5, line 9 and asked if there is a
definition for "user groups" in the by laws so that it would be
easier to determine who is and is not a user group.
SENATOR WAGONER said that user groups are those that he
previously defined: the general public including several
municipalities, sports fishing guides, and commercial fishermen.
"That pretty well covers the whole gauntlet of those of us who
are interested in preserving the pristine beauty and viability
of the Kenai River system and the fish runs that are in it."
Also, the board members are appointed every four years and half
are rotated every two years.
SENATOR GUESS asked for elaboration regarding why areas were
removed from Representative Lancaster's original bill and why
some of the lands were controversial.
SENATOR WAGONER said the largest controversy was with Chugach
Electric and related to access to the flume, the road, and the
rights of way. Also, some land was to be purchased or traded,
but the state is no longer purchasing additional property to
include in reserves.
SENATOR GUESS asked if it was correct that those lands were
included initially because they were important to the river
system.
SENATOR WAGONER said they were undeveloped properties and it was
desirable to keep them that way. He admitted that he agreed to
carry the bill with the EVOS lands because they were lands that
the state had already purchased and it would protect them from
future development.
SENATOR GUESS questioned whether some of the land that was
excluded is critical to ensure the habitat of the Kenai River
system.
SENATOR WAGONER opined they aren't as critical as they used to
be because development restrictions are more stringent than they
used to be. He stated that he isn't interested in controlling
what another person may do with their property, but property
rights on the Kenai River affect far more people than just those
along the river. It is a valuable system and no one wants to
lose it.
SENATOR GUESS asked if there is a reason for the immediate
effective date.
SENATOR WAGONER replied it isn't a burning issue and continued
to describe this as a non-partisan issue.
SENATOR BERT STEDMAN noted that SB 190 applies to just 536
acres, but that it has a broader reach, as it would protect the
Kenai River for generations to come.
SENATOR WAGONER agreed.
SENATOR STEDMAN asked that Senator Wagoner explain the EVOS
acronym and how it relates to the Exxon Valdez.
SENATOR WAGONER explained that EVOS stands for Exxon Valdez Oil
Settlement. Close to a $1 billion settlement was reached between
Exxon, the State of Alaska and the federal government. A large
percentage of that money was used to buy private sector lands
and return them to the state, but the current governor halted
the practice.
SENATOR STEDMAN observed that these lands would be held in
perpetuity as untouched lands for future generations to enjoy.
SENATOR WAGONER agreed and said that although most of the lands
are wetlands or have wetlands on them, SB 190 ensures their
protection by placing them in the park system.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS called on Ted Wellman to give testimony.
TED WELLMAN from Anchorage testified via teleconference. He
advised that he was speaking for himself, but that he has served
on the Kenai River Special Management Area Advisory Board for
eight years. He spoke in support of the bill with regard to the
acreage, but disagreed with making some of the members ad hoc.
Initially he was not in favor of allowing agency members to vote
but has since changed his mind. They have a stabilizing quality
and provide regular and ongoing information to the board. He
expressed concern that a special interest group might gain
control of the board and drive it in the wrong direction.
MR WELLMAN stated no objection to the Department of Natural
Resources and the Department of Fish and Game having no vote
because they are "too close." However, he believes that the
refuge and Forest Service should be voting members because they
prevent any user group among the public members from gaining
control of the board. In his eight years on the board, there was
no problem with the agencies voting and he could recall no
instance in which the agency member made a determining vote.
To clarify any misunderstanding, he explained that the Chugach
Electric property was a small part of the land selected for
inclusion in the park. Most of the land slated for inclusion did
not have to be purchased. There was some objection about
commercial development around Kenai Lake and after an extensive
public process, the board recommended including the areas in the
park to protect the river. In particular, exchanges regarding
commercial and non-commercial development in the Cooper Landing
area were fiery, but the board thought that commercial
development was incompatible with the river.
He expressed pleasure that SB 190 would add 536 acres, but
stated his belief that the other land should be included as
well. He then acknowledged that Chugach Electric's objections
were legitimate. He said he would be happy to answer questions
about how the board works.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS asked Mr. Wellman to comment on the board
responsibilities and what it accomplishes.
MR. WELLMAN explained that in the mid 1990s, the board was
charged with redeveloping the comprehensive plan for the Kenai
River. They did so through an extensive public hearing process.
The plan addresses all activity on the river. They review and
comment on permit applications for building on the river, they
participate in water quality monitoring studies, they review
enforcement issues related to guiding activities, they advise
the park on guide stipulations and numbers, and they review and
comment on any other uses related to the river that might affect
the public. Generally, they are very active and aggressive in
protecting the river.
4:00 pm
CHAIR GARY STEVENS asked Mr. Vincent-Lang to give testimony.
DOUG VINCENT-LANG, Department of Fish and Game, testified via
teleconference to say that the land under discussion was
specifically purchased to be set aside. They are EVOS purchases
and most are wetlands that form critical habitat to sustain the
fisheries.
SENATOR WAGONER remarked that Mr. Wellman brought up a point
that might benefit from additional clarification. The water
quality study on the Kenai River that the Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC) was involved in was not funded
last year. He advised that he is working to re fund that program
so that the water quality study can be completed in the next
year or two.
SENATOR GARY STEVENS noted that the bill would move to the
Senate Resources Committee next. Fiscal notes from the
Department of Natural Resources and the Department of Fish and
Game were attached and the bill did not have a referral to the
Finance Committee.
SENATOR JOHN COWDERY made a motion to move CSSB 190(STA) from
committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal
notes. There was no objection and it was so ordered.
4:00 pm
SB 167-INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
SCR 8-AMENDING UNIFORM RULES 37 AND 44
CHAIR GARY STEVENS announced SB 167 and SCR 8 to be up for
consideration. He stated that he did not intend to move the
bills from committee that day, but he wanted to begin the
discussion and take testimony. He asked Senator Guess to present
the bill.
SENATOR GRETCHEN GUESS, sponsor, advised that she would talk
about the bills simultaneously.
She said it is interesting to learn how transparent or not
transparent the system in the capitol is to the outside public.
In combination, SB 167 and SCR 8 move toward a more transparent
system for the Legislature. These bills do two things. They do
away with committee bills and they add authority for the
governor to introduce bills directly. Although legislators and
others working in the capitol know what a committee bill means,
the public doesn't necessarily have that same understanding.
It's confusing to look at a bill and know who sponsors and
believes in the bill. If a legislator sits on the Rules
Committee, every governor's bill has their name on it whether
they agree with the bill or not. She said that sixty legislators
and one governor are elected officials and all should have the
authority to introduce legislation.
She said she decided to introduce this legislation after it came
to her attention that it is unclear to the public who supports
certain bills. The confusion wasn't intended, but she thought it
is time to revisit the process and become more transparent to
the public.
She asked for questions.
SENATOR GARY STEVENS asked about Rule 44 that says a legislator
may not introduce bills after the 35th day of the session.
Because many bills do come after that time, he wondered what the
impact might be if committee bills were no longer allowed.
SENATOR GUESS pointed out that on page 2, line 3 of SCR 8 Rule
44, which is specifically about committees and committee bills,
is repealed. With this legislation, there wouldn't be committee
bills, but any member of the Legislature could put in bills
until the end of the session.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS recapped and said that in removing Rule 44,
any legislator could introduce legislation right up until the
end.
SENATOR GUESS agreed and said that it would be the prerogative
of the chair to hear the bills or not.
SENATOR JOHN COWDERY noted that by the end of this session there
would be close to 1,000 bills that were introduced, but less
than 80 would become law and that isn't necessarily bad.
He referred to the sponsor statement that said that committee
bills may have had a purpose at one time, but it is time to
reevaluate the process. He asked what she believes the purpose
to have been originally.
SENATOR GUESS said she would look to him as the more experienced
member, but she understands that it is from when a committee, in
it's entirety, worked on an issue and presented it in front of
the Legislature. She acknowledged that is a positive and
important part of the process and although she hasn't
experienced that, her bill wouldn't prohibit it either. The
difference is that the chair would put the bill in rather than
the committee as a whole. She opined that a committee could work
on and support a bill without it being a committee bill.
SENATOR COWDERY said that in her tenure she has probably seen
many bills that were referred to a subcommittee because they had
problems. It's not uncommon for the subcommittee to be composed
of both minority and majority members and still they return an
unacceptable product to the full committee and the bill doesn't
go forward.
He asked Senator Guess what she believes has changed in the
process.
SENATOR GUESS first stated that this bill would not affect
committee substitutes. Committee substitutes that come from the
subcommittee negotiation is a very good part of the process. She
continued to say that government is becoming more transparent,
particularly with respect to the Internet. People review bills
more frequently and they have an increased desire to know and
understand what legislators are doing. Gavel-to-Gavel is a very
positive step and having all bills available on the Internet is
another. There was less confusion years ago because the process
was less transparent.
SENATOR COWDERY related his experience in giving people copies
of a bill saying they don't understand what bracketed language
means or what the bolded language means. "If you read it as a
whole, without the bracket, it's confusing, but that's our
system and those that do understand probably are fewer than
those that don't..." He asked when the process changed and why
this is necessary.
SENATOR GUESS thanked Senator Cowdery for his questions and said
that as Rules Chair, perhaps the web site should be changed to
help people learn to read a bill. It's complicated and the more
the public understands, the better.
She admitted that she didn't know when the change occurred. If a
public member hadn't approached her, she might not have given it
much thought. She was asked why she supported a certain Rules
Committee bill and when she said she didn't, she began to
understand how difficult this might be to understand. She said,
"This isn't the sexiest issue out there," but the public should
be able to understand who supports a bill.
SENATOR COWDERY pointed out that she probably didn't know most
of the people that elected her and he doesn't personally know
many his constituents either, but they decided that she would
vote the way they wanted her to vote most of the time and that
is why she was elected. Understanding that, he doubts that there
will ever be a point when most people understand the system.
He then asked about issues that a constituent might bring to a
committee chair dealing with the specific task of the committee.
SENATOR GUESS said that all legislators have the responsibility
of evaluating the ideas that constituents bring in and deciding
whether or not they should be put in as a bill.
4:30 pm
TAPE 04-1, SIDE B
SENATOR GUESS referred to the point he made regarding the number
of bills introduced as compared to the number that become law.
She pointed out that people are able to look at the voting
records for the bills that become law.
SENATOR COWDERY interrupted to say that they look at how a
legislator voted, they don't necessarily look at the committee
bills where members have the option to vote do pass, do not
pass, no recommendation, or amend. The true record is how you
vote on it when it gets to the floor, if it gets to the floor.
SENATOR GUESS agreed that that's the point. Names are attached
to committee bills yet the commitment might not be there. SB 167
would allow citizens to know which legislators support which
bills. This would clarify the public record.
SENATOR COWDERY asked who should take the responsibility to
ensure that the public's ideas are represented through the
committee process. He continued to say that the committee
process weeds out weak bills. He took issue with her charge that
when a committee bill is introduced that all committee members
are co-sponsors. He pointed out that there is a space on the
bill for co-sponsors and there is a committee voting record on
the bill. If the bill gets to the floor there is also a voting
record.
He referred to the sponsor statement that said this is a good
first step and asked what her second step might be.
SENATOR GUESS thanked him for clarifying that. She said she is
always open to suggestions and there isn't a second step.
SENATOR COWDERY then asked how the court system would introduce
a bill if this were passed.
SENATOR GUESS said they would go to the Judiciary Committee or
to the governor. Under SB 167 they could introduce a bill
through the governor or any of the 60 legislators.
SENATOR COWDERY outlined the steps a bill goes through to become
law.
SENATOR GUESS said that under this bill, the governor could send
a bill directly to the clerk.
SENATOR COWDERY disagreed with that idea wholeheartedly.
SENATOR GUESS asked why because she thought that, as the Rules
Chair, he would support that change.
SENATOR COWDERY said he supports maintaining the separation of
powers.
SENATOR GUESS replied that she believes the people elect the
governor and he or she should be able to submit bills directly.
SENATOR COWDERY said our constitution is a model and there is no
need for change.
SENATOR GUESS pointed out that this bill wouldn't change the
constitution; it's an interpretation.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS noted that members had a copy of a fax from
Mike McBride in their packets. He then asked Mr. Arnold to
testify.
WILLIAM T. ARNOLD from Sterling testified via teleconference in
support of both bills. He would like the sponsor to receive
credit for their bill. He said this would help citizens know
what's going on in their government and it's called full
disclosure and transparency.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS thanked Mr. Arnold and repeated that he would
not move the bill that day.
MR. ARNOLD then asked whether the committee would vote on the
bill some other time.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS assured Mr. Arnold that the committee would
look at the bill carefully and decide whether any changes were
needed.
SENATOR COWDERY stated his intention to amend the bill.
MR. ARNOLD repeated his position with regard to tying a name to
a bill.
SENATOR COWDERY said bills are tied to a name when they move
from committee because the member's recommendations are a matter
of public record.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS thanked Mr. Arnold for his testimony and
asked Senator Guess if she had additional comments.
SENATOR GUESS said Senator Cowdery provided good debate on the
subject. She restated her position that she always welcomes
amendments to improve the bill as long as her intent is not
changed. She voiced the opinion that although this subject isn't
on par with fiscal plans or education, it is important. It's
always worthwhile to look at ways to make the system work better
for the people.
SENATOR BERT STEDMAN asked for an explanation of the retroactive
date.
SENATOR GUESS explained that the date on SCR 8 is tied to SB 167
because statutes and rules wouldn't mesh if one were to pass
without the other. In reviewing the bill she determined that it
isn't necessary to have an effective date on SB 167.
SENATOR STEDMAN admitted he hasn't experienced the end of a
session but he understands that it is fast moving. With that in
mind, he asked what affect this bill might have on the end of a
session.
SENATOR GUESS replied this bill isn't intended to change
anything that happens once the budget goes into effect. This
would remove the deadline for personal bills and would allow
legislators the opportunity to put bills in at any time. She
acknowledged that this might have the unintended consequence of
cluttering first readings, but what Senator Cowdery, as Rules
Committee chair, must balance is what needs to get to the floor.
Because issues do arise after February, there must be a process
to address those issues. However, the work entailed in
introducing a bill acts as a natural inhibition. She thanked
Senator Stedman for the clarifying question.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS thanked Senator Guess and noted that this
makes everyone stop and think about the process. SCR 8 and SB
167 were held in committee.
CHAIR GARY STEVENS adjourned the meeting at 4:50 pm.
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