Legislature(1995 - 1996)

01/23/1996 03:32 PM Senate STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
        JOINT HOUSE & SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE                         
                        January 23, 1996                                       
                           3:32 p.m.                                           
  HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT                                                        
 Representative Jeannette James, Chair                                         
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice-Chair                                         
 Representative Joe Green                                                      
 Representative Ivan                                                           
 Representative Brian Porter                                                   
 Representative Caren Robinson                                                 
 Representative Ed Willis                                                      
  SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT                                                       
 Senator Bert Sharp, Chair                                                     
 Senator Randy Phillips, Vice-Chair                                            
 Senator Loren Leman                                                           
 Senator Dave Donley                                                           
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
 Senator Jim Duncan                                                            
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
 HOUSE BILL NO. 338                                                            
 "An Act relating to permits to carry concealed handguns."                     
 SENATE BILL NO. 177                                                           
 "An Act relating to permits to carry concealed handguns."                     
  PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION                                             
 HB 338 - See Joint Senate/House State Affairs minutes                         
      dated 10/5/95.                                                           
 SB 177 - See Joint Senate/House State Affairs minutes                         
          dated 10/5/95.                                                       
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
 Senator Lyda Green                                                            
 State Capitol, Juneau, Alaska, 99801-1182¶(907)465-6600                       
   POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 177                                 
 Brett Huber                                                                   
 Aide to Senator Lyda Green                                                    
 State Capitol, Juneau, Alaska, 99801-1182¶(907)465-6600                       
   POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 177                                 
 Art Snowden, Administrative Director                                          
 Alaska Court System                                                           
 303 K Street, Anchorage, AK 99501-2084¶(907)264-0547                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Del Smith, Deputy Commissioner                                                
 Department of Public Safety                                                   
 P.O. Box 111200, Juneau, AK 99811-1200¶(907)465-4362                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Sergeant John Nealon                                                          
 Valdez Police Department, NRA member                                          
 P.O. Box 2379, Valdez, AK 99686¶(907)835-5031                                 
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Gary Judd, President                                                          
 Nuvuk Gun Club                                                                
 P.O. Box 1469, Barrow, AK 99723¶(907)852-4503                                 
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338 & SB 177                                
 Elzie Isley                                                                   
 2533 3rd Ave., Ketchikan, AK 99901¶(907)225-4881                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Robert Nesvick, Jr.                                                           
 former state trooper & permit holder                                          
 P.O. Box 5726, Ketchikan, AK 99901¶(907)225-4618                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Gary Carlson                                                                  
 2439 Tulane, Anchorage, AK 99504¶(907)337-3857                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338 & SB 177                                
 Glen Knoebel                                                                  
 P.O. Box 84, Glennallen, AK 99588¶(907)822-3208                               
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Douglas Rhodes                                                                
 P.O. Box 110, Glennallen, AK 99588¶(907)822-3663                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338 & SB 177                                
 Patrick Dalton                                                                
 P.O. Box 1413, Delta Junction, AK 99737                                       
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Bernard Goodno                                                                
 Fourth Judicial District                                                      
 c/o P.O. Box 92, Delta Junction, AK Republic 99737,                           
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Lyman Nichols                                                                 
 P.O. Box 783, Cooper Landing, AK 99572¶(907)595-1224                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338 & SB 177                                
 Clark Berger                                                                  
 P.O. Box 3113, Kenai, AK 99611¶(907)776-8055                                  
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Patrick Johnson                                                               
 Firearms instructor, NRA member, permit-holder                                
 54540 East End Road, Homer, AK 99603¶(907) 235-6656                           
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Laura Jane Wineinger                                                          
 P.O. Box 1111, Chickaloon, AK 99674¶(907)745-2093                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Charles Stiehr                                                                
 P.O. Box 671108, Chugiak, AK 99867¶(907)688-3227                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 David Williams                                                                
 1335 Sunnyslope Rd., Fairbanks, AK 99709¶(907)455-6652                        
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338                                         
 Bonnie Williams, permit-holder                                                
 1335 Sunnyslope Rd., Fairbanks, AK 99709¶(907)455-6652                        
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338 & SB 177                                
 Thomas Devine                                                                 
 P.O. Box 771413, Eagle River, AK 99577¶(907)696-8211                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Lloyd Barrus                                                                  
 HC31, Box 5182A, Wasilla, AK 99654¶(907)373-4039                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Marshall Martin, NRA member, weapons instructor, permit-holder                
 31695 Murray Lane, Soldotna, AK 99669¶(907)262-5909                           
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338 & SB 177                                
 Phil Nash                                                                     
 P.O. Box 1545, Kenai, AK 99611¶(907)283-7514                                  
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Tim Schraget, permit-holder                                                   
 3130 East 46th, #3, Anchorage, AK 99507¶(907)337-2813                         
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Joan Fisher                                                                   
 Mary Conrad Center                                                            
 9100 Centennial Dr., Anchorage, AK 99504¶(907)333-8100                        
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director                                            
 Alaska Network on Domestic Violence & Sexual Assault                          
 130 Seward St., Rm. 501, Juneau, AK 99801¶(907)586-3650                       
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Michael Culbert                                                               
 1934 Endecott Ave., Fairbanks, AK 99709¶(907)488-3061                         
   POSITION STATEMENT: HB 338 & SB 177                                         
 Douglas Somers                                                                
 P.O. Box 58195, Fairbanks, AK 99711¶(907)488-7100                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Don Zimmerman                                                                 
 P.O. Box 875133, Wasilla, AK 99687¶(907)376-0344                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Eric Beckman                                                                  
 HC 32, Box 6629B, Wasilla, AK 99654¶(907)373-2234                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Rod Christopher                                                               
 Peninsula Weapons Academy                                                     
 180 S. Binkley, Soldotna, AK 99669¶(907)262-5556                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Jess Bulkley                                                                  
 2530 W. 79th Ave., Anchorage, AK 99502¶(907)248-6633                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Chris Sullivan                                                                
 4155 Mclean, Anchorage, AK 99504¶(907)337-3075                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Ladd McBride                                                                  
 P.O. Box 83567, Fairbanks, AK 99708¶(907)479-8096                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Jerry Potts                                                                   
 747 Grubstake Rd., Fairbanks, AK 99712¶(907)458-9446                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Dan Hitchcock                                                                 
 P.O. Box 14001, Salcha, AK 99714¶(907)488-0811                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports HB 338 & SB 177                                
 Jayne Andreen, Executive Director                                             
 Council on Domestic Violence & Sexual Assault                                 
 Department of Public Safety                                                   
 P.O. Box 111200, Juneau, AK 99811-1200¶(907)465-3627                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 338 & SB 177                            
 Ken Rivard                                                                    
 P.O. Box 871842, Wasilla, AK 99687¶(907)376-2140                              
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony on HB 338                   
       & SB 177                                                                
 Mark & Mimi Nix                                                               
 P.O. Box 56753, North Pole, AK 99705                                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony supporting HB 338           
       & SB 177                                                                
 Harry L. & Mae Alice Hopkins                                                  
 P.O. Box 2191, Soldotna, AK 99669¶(907)262-4505                               
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony on HB 338                   
          & SB 177                                                             
 Mike Lanegan                                                                  
 P.O. Box 28, Glennallen, AK 99588¶(907)822-5289                               
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony supporting HB 338           
       & SB 177                                                                
 Raymond L. Carr                                                               
 4401 N. Dogwood, Kenai, AK ¶(907)283-7001                                     
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony supporting SB 177           
       (with exception to parts of Section 7)                                  
 Gene Att...? (illegible handwriting)                                          
 Fourth Judicial District                                                      
 c/o P.O. Box 1059, Delta Junction, AK Republic¶(907)895-4805                  
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony opposing HB 338             
       & SB 177                                                                
 Jeannie Marie Phipps                                                          
 Fourth Judicial District                                                      
 c/o P.O. Box 544, Delta Junction, AK Republic ¶(907)895-4805                  
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony opposing HB 338             
       & SB 177                                                                
 Diane Bennett                                                                 
 Box 2542, Soldotna, Alaska                                                    
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony opposing HB 338             
       & SB 177                                                                
 Robert H. Parkerson                                                           
 HC 02 Box 7630-A1, Palmer, AK 99645¶(907)745-4358                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony supporting SB 177           
 Eddie Grasser                                                                 
 Alaska Outdoor Council                                                        
 Box 2193, Palmer, AK 99645¶(907)745-3772                                      
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony supporting HB 338           
       & SB 177                                                                
 Casey Wheeler                                                                 
   POSITION STATEMENT: submitted written testimony supporting SB 177           
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
 TAPE 96-2, SIDE A                                                             
     HB 338 & SB 177 CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS                     
 Number 001                                                                    
 CHAIR JAMES called the joint meeting of the House & Senate State              
 Affairs Committees to order at 3:32 p.m. and brought up HB 338 and            
 SB 177 as the only order of business before the committees.  The              
 chair noted there were committee substitutes for HB 338 and SB 177.           
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to adopt the committee                     
 substitute for HB 338.                                                        
 CHAIR JAMES, hearing no objection, stated the committee substitute            
 for HB 338 was adopted.                                                       
 SENATOR LEMAN made a motion to adopt the committee substitute for             
 SB 177.                                                                       
 CHAIR JAMES, hearing no objection, stated the committee substitute            
 for SB 177 was adopted.                                                       
 CHAIR JAMES called Senator Green to testify.                                  
 Number 050                                                                    
 SENATOR LYDA GREEN, prime sponsor of SB 177, stated the intent of             
 SB 177 is to simplify the permitting process and reduce costs in              
 order to make the permits more readily available.                             
 Number 070                                                                    
 SENATOR GREEN read her sponsor statement for SB 177.                          
 Number 110                                                                    
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked if the committee substitutes would               
 allow a permittee to carry a concealed weapon into banks, schools,            
 state or federal offices, court houses, and passenger loading and             
 unloading areas in airline terminals.  That possibility concerns              
 Number 120                                                                    
 SENATOR GREEN responded that federal law already prohibits carrying           
 concealed weapons in airports and all federal facilities.                     
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS said it bothers him that carrying concealed            
 weapons isn't prohibited on school grounds.                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said that bothered him also.                             
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS is concerned with where a concealed weapon             
 would be allowed.  He is also concerned that an applicant would not           
 have to place a life-sized silhouette in a target: apparently it's            
 not necessary to be a good shot to obtain a permit; that the                  
 Department of Public Safety (DPS) will no longer be conducting spot           
 checks with the FBI; that permit holders do not have to demonstrate           
 proficiency in the use of the weapon they carry; reciprocity                  
 between states, and that permits would not be suspended for                   
 misdemeanor offenses.                                                         
 SENATOR GREEN asked Senator Phillips to repeat his first concern.             
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS repeated he was concerned about allowing               
 concealed carrying on school grounds.  A new subsection would allow           
 permittees to carry into preschools, elementary, junior high, and             
 secondary schools without permission from school officials.  Of all           
 the provisions, that one concerns him most.                                   
 Number 168                                                                    
 SENATOR DONLEY questioned whether that provision would override               
 other prohibitions in Alaska Statute regarding guns on school                 
 grounds.  He asked Senator Green to address that question also.               
 Number 175                                                                    
 SENATOR GREEN stated that the precept that should be above all                
 others is that the right of permittees should be upheld to the                
 limit of the constitution.  There are some glaring provisions that            
 the sponsors are willing to talk about.  This legislation is the              
 starting point.                                                               
 Number 200                                                                    
 CHAIR JAMES reminded legislators that the legislation will not be             
 passed out until a few more changes are made.  Prohibitions on                
 where permittees can carry is one of the biggest problems of                  
 permittees.  If it is a right for a person to carry a concealed               
 handgun, once they've gone through the process of becoming                    
 permitted, then they ought to be able to carry a weapon wherever it           
 is they want to carry it, as long as it's not prohibited by federal           
 law.  Concealed carry is the issue, and if you're going to carry a            
 concealed weapon, you'd better keep it concealed.  No one needs to            
 know and know one ought to know that you have it, because then the            
 whole benefit of having it concealed is gone.  The process today is           
 to find what needs to be changed.  This committee substitute will             
 not be passed out today.                                                      
 Number 235                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER noted that Section 2 allows permittees to               
 carry concealed weapons into a bar.  He asked if businesses could             
 continue to ban carrying concealed weapons on their premises by               
 posting a notice to that effect.                                              
 SENATOR GREEN replied that ability is removed by HB 338 and SB 177.           
 Number 262                                                                    
 CHAIR JAMES does not think individual businesses should be allowed            
 to prohibit concealed carrying on their premises; she thinks the              
 places one most needs a concealed weapon is in parking lots, and              
 that would force a permittee to leave their weapon in their car.              
 Number 275                                                                    
 SENATOR DONLEY asked for an affirmative defense for Section 2.                
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER noted that item 61.223 is the prohibition               
 against carrying a weapon in a bar.                                           
 SENATOR DONLEY noted that would be an affirmative defense for that            
 part.  He asked if anything addresses prohibitions on having guns             
 on school grounds.                                                            
 Number 285                                                                    
 BRETT HUBER, Aide to Senator Lyda Green, stated Section 1 of the              
 bill would offer an affirmative defense for carrying a concealed              
 handgun onto school grounds, just as Section 2 does for liquor                
 Number 290                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he shares Senator Phillips concerns.              
 He is concerned that we might share reciprocity with other states             
 that do not share as rigorous a review as Alaska.  He also asked if           
 there have been a rash of problems in parking lots.                           
 CHAIR JAMES responded she does not know if there is a rash, but               
 there have been incidents.                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN thinks if there are problems in certain areas            
 of a town, why not just stay out of those areas.  He doesn't know             
 why a weapon has to be concealed.  He is concerned that provisions            
 in the law that convinced legislators to vote for the legislation             
 two years ago are now being removed.  Representative Green thinks             
 HB 338 and SB 177 are a giant step towards vigilantism.                       
 Number 320                                                                    
 CHAIR JAMES noted that reciprocity between Alaska's law and other             
 states would be determined by DPS, and they would only allow it for           
 residents of states with restrictions similar to Alaska's.  The               
 chair asks people to please understand that the legislation is not            
 a finished draft, and she is anxious to hear everyone's concerns.             
 She asked that legislators not throw it all out just because they             
 don't like specifics; it is changeable.                                       
 Number 329                                                                    
 SENATOR LEMAN asked how many applicants had been rejected on the              
 basis of an FBI background check.                                             
 SENATOR GREEN replied she does not have that information, though              
 the representative from DPS, who will be testifying, may have that            
 Number 340                                                                    
 SENATOR LEMAN stated he was concerned about not having FBI checks.            
 MR. HUBER answered that the elimination is only the instant name            
 check.  Fingerprint requirements will still be a part of the                  
 application process.  There have been problems with the name check            
 due to some people having the same name.                                      
 Number 360                                                                    
 ART SNOWDEN, Administrative Director, Alaska Court System, stated             
 the court system is only concerned with Section 12 of the                     
 legislation.  That section would allow concealed weapons in state             
 courthouses.  The judiciary contends that it is not proper to have            
 weapons, even by people who know how to handle them, in our                   
 courthouses, because people fight in courthouses.  Emotions take              
 over.  We believe very strongly that no weapons should be allowed             
 in courthouses in this state, and we would like to put that in the            
 CHAIR JAMES asked if there is screening at courthouses.                       
 MR. SNOWDEN responded that there is only screening in Anchorage and           
 Fairbanks.  The state does not have the capability to fund                    
 screening in all state courthouses.  Where we have screened, we               
 have found people coming in with concealed weapons.  However,                 
 coming to a courthouse isn't generally part of the daily routine              
 for most people.                                                              
 Number 383                                                                    
 CHAIR JAMES asked if judges with concealed carry permits are                  
 allowed to bring their weapon into a courthouse.                              
 MR. SNOWDEN replied that court rules forbid judges from having guns           
 in courthouses.                                                               
 Number 390                                                                    
 DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, thinks           
 the department has made great progress in trying to stream line the           
 process.  The department prefers that the legislation stay the way            
 it is, however, the legislature is the policy maker in the state.             
 CHAIR JAMES asked Mr. Smith if he is able to provide the list of              
 MR. SMITH responded he has contacted the Anchorage Police                     
 Department and the Presidents of the Chiefs Association, but they             
 have not gotten back to him with that information.                            
 SENATOR SHARP asked Mr. Smith if he knows how many applications               
 have been refused as the result of an FBI check.                              
 MR. SMITH replied that as of October, 1995 the number was 19.  As             
 of last Wednesday, DPS had issued about 4,019 permits.  Four                  
 permits have been rescinded due to arrest of the permittee.                   
 SENATOR SHARP asked if an officer calls in an I.D., is there a flag           
 in the computer system that lets him know that person has a                   
 concealed weapons permit?                                                     
 MR. SMITH responded yes.                                                      
 Number 422                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated he was "passing around a list of                 
 misdemeanors that are now precluded... if a person has a conviction           
 for one of these misdemeanors they're precluded to be issued a                
 Number 425                                                                    
 SENATOR DONLEY stated that one standard for applying misdemeanors             
 is whether it is a crime against a person.  He asked if anyone                
 remembers why that standard was not used as a basis and then add on           
 to that.                                                                      
 Number 432                                                                    
 CHAIR JAMES thinks they were trying to include crimes with any kind           
 of violence to them.                                                          
 Number 437                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIS asked if lowering the application fees would            
 impact the department.                                                        
 MR. SMITH replied the current fee is $122.  $24 goes to the FBI               
 when fingerprints are submitted for checking; $35 is used for the             
 in-state fingerprint check and criminal history review.  The                  
 remaining $63 was to provide for permits and licensing.  The actual           
 cost has turned out to be somewhat less than $63, and DPS could               
 move down somewhat from that.  But he is concerned that if you cut            
 the fee, more people will apply, and they will then need more money           
 to process applications.  Cutting the fee from a total of $122 to             
 $65 would have a substantial impact on the department and it's                
 ability to provide timely service.  It is fee driven.                         
 CHAIR JAMES noted she will be investigating that issue further.               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Smith to explain procedurally the             
 FBI name check, as opposed to the fingerprint check.                          
 MR. SMITH responded he originally believed the department could not           
 do a national name check for purposes of a concealed weapon permit.           
 But the FBI informed us that was not true.  With a name check, the            
 FBI could tell us if a person had a conviction that precluded them            
 from carrying a concealed weapon.  The FBI would say "no", but they           
 would not tell us what that conviction was.  They will not release            
 specific information without a fingerprint.                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Smith if he reads the legislation             
 as still requiring FBI fingerprint checks.                                    
 MR. SMITH responds he does read the legislation as still requiring            
 that.  However he is concerned that the sponsor's statement says              
 the legislation would delete FBI investigation, but he doesn't                
 think that's what the statement meant.                                        
 Number 485                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN does not want to see the state subsidizing the           
 cost of permitting.  He also thinks the state should continue to              
 require proficiency of use.  He related an incident he thinks                 
 supports the need for requiring proficiency.                                  
 Number 503                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN noted the legislation deletes the requirement             
 to qualify for specific action types and calibers.  He asked if the           
 legislation could just specify qualifying for action types, and               
 then permittees could just choose whatever caliber they want, as              
 long as they can hang on to it.  He suggested that might be a                 
 reasonable alternative.  He doesn't think the size of the caliber             
 would make much difference, as long as they know how to handle the            
 Number 510                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER agreed with Representative Ogan's position on           
 the action type.  The reason for requiring proficiency in action              
 types is so someone who only had training with a revolver wouldn't            
 carry an automatic and not even be able to get the clip in and out,           
 which happens.  It happens to police officers.                                
 CHAIR JAMES told Representative Porter not to admit that.                     
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated that the caliber restriction was to              
 keep people from carrying a 44, when they had only qualified on a             
 22.  The difference is night and day.                                         
 Number 521                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN added that during the training in which he               
 participated, most people didn't know the difference between a                
 double action or single action, did have difficulty with one                  
 weapon, and perhaps not the other one, and there was a significant            
 difference in ability to handle higher caliber weapons.  He agreed            
 with Representative Porter that being qualified on one weapon                 
 shouldn't automatically qualify a person on another weapon.  But he           
 thinks if you qualify on a 45, you should be qualified for lower            
 Number 532                                                                    
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked Mr. Smith how many inquiries regarding           
 permits have been made.                                                       
 MR. SMITH responded he does not have that information.                        
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked if there have been complaints                    
 regarding the permitting process.                                             
 MR. SMITH responded he hopes concerns have been addressed.  There             
 were a few complaints, mostly over the initial speed of processing            
 applications.  He personally has not ever received a complaint from           
 anyone about the application fee.                                             
 Number 542                                                                    
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked if there have been any complaints                
 about the law.                                                                
 MR. SMITH replied none that he is aware of.                                   
 Number 545                                                                    
 JOHN NEALON, Sergeant, Valdez Police Department, NRA Member,                  
 testifying from Valdez, stated he does not oppose laws allowing               
 concealed carrying of handguns with provisions for training                   
 requirements.  He thinks the training requirements in the original            
 bill were wholly inadequate.  He sees those original requirements             
 reemerging in the legislation before the committee.  He also thinks           
 it is important that citizens know the legal parameters for using             
 deadly force.  In his contact with the public, he has found that              
 most people, including gun owners, know very little about criminal            
 or civil law related to the use of deadly force.  Hunter safety               
 does not prepare people to carry concealed weapons.  He also                  
 believes there is very little military training related to                    
 concealed weapons in civilian self defense, with the possible                 
 exception of military police.                                                 
 MR. NEALON does not agree that the application fee and the training           
 requirements have kept some people from applying.  He thinks the              
 number of people estimated to have wanted permits was overstated by           
 supporters of the original legislation.  If there are people who              
 cannot obtain a permit because of the expense, he would rather see            
 the application fee waived for those who can prove financial                  
 hardship.  He supports requiring training so that citizens of our             
 state can be assured that only qualified men and women will obtain            
 permits.  The concealed handgun law is a good one; it works.                  
 Repealing the training and proficiency requirements is a bad idea.            
 Number 579                                                                    
 SENATOR LEMAN asked Mr. Nealon to clarify whether it was the                  
 training requirements in the original bill before it was marked up          
 that were inadequate, and not the bill that was passed.  He asked             
 if Mr. Nealon was satisfied with the training requirements                    
 currently in statute.                                                         
 MR. NEALON replied that is correct: he thought the training                   
 requirements in the original legislation were inadequate, but that            
 the version that passed the legislature was adequate.  The training           
 requirements in statute are adequate.  They could be improved, but            
 they are adequate.                                                            
 GARY JUDD, President, Nuvuk Gun Club, testifying from Barrow,...              
 TAPE 96-1, SIDE B                                                             
 ...stated he supports HB 338 and SB 177, with the exception of                
 Section 7, which was eloquently explored by Mr. Nealon.  However,             
 he expressed concern that there is no immunity from civil liability           
 for citizens who, during a criminal attack, inflict damage, loss,             
 or death on a criminal.  This does not affect the criminal judicial           
 process, which is charged with ascertaining the circumstances,                
 justifications, and truth of an incident, but rather a mechanism to           
 stop criminals in civil court from victimizing a law-abiding                  
 citizen for the second time.  He thinks this legislation would be             
 a good place to address this issue.                                           
 Number 570                                                                    
 SENATOR GREEN voiced concern that people are not testifying to the            
 current committee substitute.                                                 
 CHAIR JAMES stated that regardless of what people are saying, the             
 testimony is valid.  She thinks their concerns are valid anyway.              
 SENATOR GREEN thinks their concerns have already been addressed.              
 CHAIR JAMES stated that does not make any difference.                         
 Number 562                                                                    
 ELZIE ISLEY, testifying from Ketchikan, stated that local-option              
 elections should be ruled out, because how are permittees supposed            
 to know that some area has had an election.  He also commented that           
 the prices are about right.  Mr. Isley asked why won't the law-               
 enforcement bodies fingerprint anyone for a concealed weapon permit           
 or a federal firearms license.  He had a hard time getting his                
 fingerprints for the concealed carry permit.  He also thinks that             
 to delete the requirements to qualify with the specific action or             
 caliber of a handgun probably should be in there.  He can't see any           
 reason to give a permit to someone who doesn't know how to handle             
 a handgun.                                                                    
 Number 540                                                                    
 ROBERT NESVICK, JR., Retired Alaska State Trooper, Former Police              
 Chief of Annette Islands Reserve, concealed carry permit holder,              
 testifying from Ketchikan, stated the requirements to qualify with            
 specific actions and calibers should remain.  He does think the               
 restrictions on where permittees can carry does need to be                    
 modified.  All those restrictions aren't necessary considering all            
 the training permittees receive.  He is also concerned that there             
 is no language addressing retired law-enforcement officers.                   
 Number 524                                                                    
 NEIL CAMERON, testifying from Anchorage, stated the whole reason a            
 permitting process is in place today is because of the overwhelming           
 participation of Alaskan residents.  He asked if he can contact the           
 legislators offices in order to be updated with the revisions and             
 give comment.                                                                 
 CHAIR JAMES said that would be fine; Mr. Cameron could be put on              
 the mailing list.                                                             
 Number 510                                                                    
 GARY CARLSON, testifying from Anchorage, stated his support for HB
 338 and SB 177.  He thinks the concealed carry law was enacted in             
 response to passage of the Brady bill.  He thinks there is a                  
 widespread movement towards a new world order and a one-world                 
 government: gun control and disarmament is an essential part of               
 this program.  We are seeing that today in people being bought off.           
 Mr. Carlson asserted that the politicians of this century have been           
 able to accomplish a more effective disarmament than George III and           
 all his minions.  The american people have the right to bear arms.            
 Number 480                                                                    
 ED KNOEBEL, testifying from Glennallen, asked if permittees will              
 have to re-submit all the application paperwork for renewals of               
 permits.  He thinks military training should be sufficient to                 
 satisfy training requirements.                                                
 Number 465                                                                    
 DOUGLAS RHODES, testifying from Glennallen, stated he agrees with             
 most of the revisions.  He is particularly concerned with where a             
 permittee can carry concealed.  He thinks permittees should be able           
 to carry into banks and bars.  Mr. Rhodes stated he cannot even               
 carry a concealed weapon legally in his house.  He also does not              
 think that permittees should have to repeat all the training to               
 renew a permit and that the price for permits should be lowered.              
 In regards to the training requirements, Mr. Rhodes thinks if a               
 person can handle a 38 auto, that person should have no problem               
 with a 44 auto.  He doesn't thinks most people would carry more               
 than they're comfortable with.                                                
 Number 442                                                                    
 PATRICK DALTON, testifying from Delta Junction, cited Article 1,              
 Section 19 in the Alaska State Constitution and asserted that state           
 legislators and law enforcement can't even read their own                     
 constitution.  Mr. Dalton thinks requiring someone to have a permit           
 takes away their right to bear arms.                                          
 Number 430                                                                    
 BERNARD GOODNO, testifying from Delta Junction, reminded the                  
 committee that in 1994 the people of Alaska voted to amend the                
 state constitution to add, "The individual right to keep and bear             
 arms shall not be denied or infringed by the state or political               
 subdivisions of the state."  Mr. Goodno asserted that means he has            
 the right to carry any way he so chooses.                                     
 Number 415                                                                    
 LYMAN NICHOLS, testifying from Kenai, stated most of his testimony            
 has been taken care of by the amendments in the committee                     
 substitute to the legislation.  Mr. Nichols informed the committee            
 that it is difficult to meet the training requirements in the small           
 village from which he comes.  Therefor, he would like to see                  
 provision made the smaller villages for training.  Perhaps a video            
 could be used.  In addition, Mr. Nichols thinks retired peace                 
 officers should be entitled to obtain a permit directly.  Mr.                 
 Nichols stated he really supports the other changes, particularly             
 Section 12, which allows permittees to carry in more places.                  
 Number 393                                                                    
 CLARK BURGER, testifying from Kenai, stated that to change where a            
 permittee is not allowed to carry a concealed weapon to only where            
 disallowed by federal law would make a heck of a difference to a              
 bunch of us.  Just think of how many guns of people in this                   
 teleconference are out in our cars and trucks: they're gonna be               
 awful cold when you put 'em back in!                                          
 Number 380                                                                    
 PATRICK JOHNSON, Firearms instructor, NRA member, Permit holder,              
 testifying from Homer, is opposed to deleting training requirements           
 and deleting the five-year renewal requirement.  Mr. Johnson                  
 supports lowering application fees and amending where permittees              
 are allowed to carry.                                                         
 Number 345                                                                    
 LAURA JANE WINEINGER, NRA, testifying from Matsu, stated the                  
 primary concern she has heard is the application cost for permits.            
 The NRA agrees the fee should be lowered, and that restrictions on            
 where a permittee can carry should be removed.  Ms. Wineinger                 
 believes training requirements should be at a minimum.  Training              
 should be the responsibility of the permit applicant.  The NRA                
 wants an amendment allowing derringers and miniature handguns,                
 which were designed for concealment and self protection.                      
 Number 290                                                                    
 SENATOR LEMAN asked Ms. Wineinger what she thinks of the one-year             
 residency requirement for current applicants.                                 
 MS. WINEINGER responded the residency requirements should be gotten           
 rid of.                                                                       
 Number 275                                                                    
 CHARLES STIEHR, testifying from Matsu, stated it's a constitutional           
 right to carry.  There is also a responsibility to protect our                
 family.  If there has to be a permit system at all, the only thing            
 that should encompass should be proficiency.  Fees should just be             
 in an amount to cover expenses.                                               
 Number 264                                                                    
 DAVID WILLIAMS, testifying from Fairbanks, encouraged the committee           
 to support the committee substitute for HB 338.  He thinks                    
 permittees are irrationally treated as dangerous citizens.  The               
 possession of firearms does not make law-abiding citizens a danger            
 to society.  He asked that trust please be put in the people.                 
 Number 234                                                                    
 BONNIE WILLIAMS, permittee, testifying from Fairbanks, informed the           
 committee that she appreciated receiving copies of regulations and            
 statute pertaining to concealed carry.  She suggested that DPS                
 consider mailing changes in statute and regulation to permit-                 
 holders.  She also approves deleting training requirements in                 
 specific action and caliber, reducing permit application fees, and            
 deletion of where permittees can carry.  She is concerned that                
 reciprocity would be cumbersome.  She thinks it would be ridiculous           
 to put the mini-gun back in and not the derringer.  She thinks                
 training on renewal should be deleted.  She urged support for HB
 338 and SB 177.                                                               
 Number 200                                                                    
 THOMAS DEVINE, testifying from Matsu, thought the testimony from              
 people in Delta Junction was eloquent.  Mr. Devine stated it was              
 every citizens responsibility and right to teach their children               
 about the solid foundation in the Constitution of the United States           
 and the Second Amendment.                                                     
 Number 190                                                                    
 LLOYD BARRUS, testifying from Matsu, stated he had a permit one               
 time for which he paid five bucks.  He said honest people get a               
 permit, and murderers don't.  Mr. Barrus thinks some people need to           
 be careful who they marry.  He trusts cops with guns, and so thinks           
 it's a slap in the face that they don't trust us (permittees?).               
 Only a fool would carry a gun they couldn't shoot, so he doesn't              
 know why they would talk about that.                                          
 Number 150                                                                    
 MARSHALL MARTIN, NRA member, weapons instructor & permit-holder,              
 testifying from Kenai, stated he supports nearly all of the                   
 legislation.  He has concern regarding where carrying is allowed.             
 Mr. Martin commented that Officer Nealon from Valdez stated Mr.               
 Martin's case very well.  He really thinks the proficiency                    
 provision needs to be retained.  However, he doesn't see any need             
 for a residency requirement, and he would like to see reciprocal              
 agreements with other states.  Mr. Martin wants to see fingerprint            
 requirements kept in law.  He supports allowing peace officers'               
 retirement and off-duty carrying.  He would like to see immunity              
 from civil liability from the criminal element.                               
 Number 115                                                                    
 PHIL NASH, NRA member, testifying from Kenai, stated that the law             
 should address the issues of simplicity, credibility, and safety.             
 He agrees with Officer Nealon that there should be a provision to             
 opt in recently retired peace officers.  But for the same reason he         
 agrees that there ought to be a renewal, he thinks that peace                 
 officers who have been retired for a significant period of time               
 probably ought to go through the program.  Mr. Nash also thinks the           
 proficiency distinction relative to action should be kept.  User              
 fees should be consistent with costs.  Since it's already a crime             
 to possess near schools, He doesn't think it would matter whether             
 that provision was dropped from the legislation.                              
 Number 067                                                                    
 TIM SCHRAGET, permit-holder, testifying from Anchorage, thinks the            
 fingerprinting is an important part of the program, because it puts           
 the liability of proving existence of a criminal record on the                
 government.  He also thinks it's important to keep training                   
 requirements relative to the action of the weapon.  He doesn't                
 think the residency requirement is important.  Mr. Schraget stated            
 he is a small business owner in Anchorage, and he feels that the              
 government should be run as a small business: if it costs the                 
 government $122 to process an application, then the fees should               
 reflect that.  The renewal fee should reflect the cost to the                 
 government also.  In regards to where permittees can carry, Mr.               
 Schraget thinks permittees should be allowed to carry anywhere in             
 the state of Alaska.                                                          
 TAPE 96-3, SIDE A                                                             
 Number 001                                                                    
 JOAN FISHER, Mary Conrad Center, testifying from Anchorage,                   
 informed the committee that she faxed written testimony to the                
 committee.  She asked that the committee consider adding a                    
 subsection adding health-care facilities to the list of places                
 where permittee can not carry a concealed handgun.                            
 Number 018                                                                    
 SENATOR LEMAN asked Ms. Fisher if it would be sufficient to her for           
 the bill to simply be permissive in allowing individual health-care           
 facilities to ban carrying on their premises.                                 
 MS. FISHER responded that would be sufficient.  She is concerned              
 that there is no strength in the law that would back up the center            
 in calling the police.                                                        
 Number 043                                                                    
 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked Ms. Fisher if the Mary Conrad Center             
 has had experiences with people wanting to have concealed weapons             
 at health-care facilities.                                                    
 MS. FISHER replied the center does have employees that would like             
 to carry weapons at work.  We've dealt with that issue as a                   
 personnel issue.  We had an incident a few years ago where a                  
 resident of an assisted-living facility shot an attendant.  There             
 have also been suicides, but she is not sure that would have                  
 anything to do with concealed weapons.                                        
 Number 062                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Ms. Fisher if employees could store                 
 concealed weapons in their lockers if they wanted to be able to               
 carry to and from work.                                                       
 MS. FISHER responded that the Mary Conrad Center does allow                   
 employees to lock up handguns in their lockers.                               
 Number 090                                                                    
 LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic                
 Violence & Sexual Assault, stated her organization is particularly            
 concerned with 4th degree assault, which is on the list of                    
 misdemeanors being considered for removal from the law.  Most                 
 domestic violence in Alaska gets classified as 4th degree assault.            
 Also on the list are stalking in the 2nd degree, misconduct                   
 involving weapons in the 2nd and 3rd degree, criminal trespass in             
 the 1st and 2nd degree, and criminal mischief in the 3rd degree.              
 We would have serious concerns if these were deleted from current             
 statute.  The network supports the additions requiring that the               
 laws and regulations concerning concealed weapons be given to each            
 Number 120                                                                    
 MS. HUGONIN stated that the three main objections her organization            
 has with the legislation are:                                                 
  1) being able to carry in to facilities serving victims of                   
  domestic violence & sexual assault;                                          
  2) the removal of demonstration of competency in the weapons                 
     they choose to carry;                                                     
  3) removal of convictions of 2 class A misdemeanors of this                  
     state or similar laws of another state.                                   
 Number 155                                                                    
 MICHAEL CULBERT, testifying from Fairbanks, urged that concealed              
 carry be kept in the simplest form possible and to do away with a             
 lot of restrictions.                                                          
 Number 163                                                                    
 DOUGLAS SOMERS, testifying from Fairbanks, thinks even if all the             
 amendments to the concealed carry law in this legislation are                 
 passed, Alaska would still have the most restrictive handgun law in           
 the United States.  Mr. Somers also thinks that the more permit               
 applications that are processed, the lower the cost should be for             
 processing each permit.  He stated that people should be proficient           
 in the weapon they choose to carry, but that is a matter of                   
 personal accountability and it should not be up to the government             
 to determine that.  Derringers were designed specifically for                 
 personal carry.  As far as retraining, Mr. Somers thinks we need to           
 do away with that.                                                            
 Number 190                                                                    
 DON ZIMMERMAN, testifying from Matsu, believes it is not the                  
 government's right to regulate anything, as far as handguns.  It is           
 his own decision whether or not he has a handgun; it is his right             
 under the constitution.                                                       
 Number 205                                                                    
 ERIC BECKMAN, firearms instructor, testifying from Matsu, agreed              
 with deleting the FBI investigation.  He does not think the federal           
 government should be involved: state's rights, state sovereignty.             
 But he does not agree that requirements to qualify on specific                
 actions should be deleted.  He also does not think residency                  
 requirements should be deleted, with the exception of reciprocity             
 agreements.  Mr. Beckman thinks fees should be lowered and places             
 permittees can carry should be increased.                                     
 Number 245                                                                    
 ROD CHRISTOPHER, Peninsula Weapons Academy, testifying from Kenai,            
 stated, as far as qualification goes, people must be familiar with            
 their weapons.  He thinks two important requirements for                      
 reciprocity would be background checks and a law class on using               
 deadly force.  Mr. Christopher thinks we should not have                      
 reciprocity with states that do not have those requirements.  He              
 thinks miniature handguns are dangerous, due to the fact they have            
 no factory trigger guard and they are subject to accidental                   
 discharge.  He would also like to see retired peace officers given            
 the opportunity to carry concealed without going through a course.            
 Mr. Christopher thinks they are as well trained or better trained             
 than any concealed-carry instructor.                                          
 Number 268                                                                    
 JESS BULKLEY, former police officer, testifying from Anchorage, is            
 concerned about constitutional rights to bear firearms.  He thinks            
 people should be able to use their own judgement as to which                  
 firearm they would like to carry.  Even though there are exceptions           
 to the rule, why should we penalize all those who are competent by            
 forcing them to take training?  He would like to see legislation              
 supporting the constitutional right to bear firearms.                         
 Number 290                                                                    
 CHRIS SULLIVAN, testifying from Anchorage, does not agree that DPS            
 should be the entity to authorize reciprocity agreements.  He would           
 like to see that authority moved to a higher level.  He doesn't               
 want the governor or legislature to be able to change or delete any           
 reciprocity agreements.  In addition, Mr. Sullivan disagrees with             
 the permitting process all together.  He asserted that any                    
 permitting process one has to go to is an infringement on the                 
 constitutional right to keep and bear arms                                    
 Number 306                                                                    
 LADD MCBRIDE, testifying from Fairbanks, asked that the committee             
 not make exceptions to Section 12 of the legislation, regarding               
 where permittees can and cannot carry.  Mr. McBride asked that the            
 renewal requirements be simplified as much as possible.                       
 Number 325                                                                    
 JERRY POTTS, testifying from Fairbanks, stated his business                   
 requires he and his family to work at night.  This legislation                
 would restrict him having a handgun or any type of protection,                
 because it does not address whether the place is inhabited or not.            
 Mr. Potts also thinks the requirements for qualification on caliber           
 and action be deleted.  The fee should only be enough to take care            
 of the fingerprinting and the background check.                               
 Number 350                                                                    
 DAN HITCHCOCK, testifying from Fairbanks, stated he supports HB 338           
 and SB 177.  He worries more about legislators who need training in           
 the constitution then about people carrying guns who are not                  
 trained to use them.                                                          
 Number 367                                                                    
 JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic Violence &             
 Sexual Assault, stated the council has two specific areas of                  
 concern with the legislation: Section 10, which eliminates offenses           
 that would require the permit to be pulled out, and Section 12,               
 which would allow concealed carry in facilities that provide                  
 services to victims of domestic violence & sexual assault.  Ms.               
 Andreen stated that there has to be a safe place for victims of               
 domestic violence and sexual assault.                                         
 CHAIR JAMES asked Ms. Andreen if she has known any victims who                
 wished to protect themselves by having a concealed handgun.                   
 MS. ANDREEN responded she is not aware of any.  She is aware of               
 victims obtaining weapons or handguns, but is not aware that having           
 a concealed weapon would be an issue for them.  But she has not               
 been in the direct service field since the concealed weapons                  
 permits have been available.                                                  
 CHAIR JAMES expressed concern that many of the people who would               
 most like to get permits, single women working odd hours, are                 
 simply carrying concealed without getting a permit, due to the cost           
 of permits.                                                                   
 MS. ANDREEN noted that only a minority of women she's worked with             
 felt that having a weapon was a viable option for maintaining their           
 CHAIR JAMES related a personal incident in which having a gun gave            
 her peace of mind.                                                            
 Number 447                                                                    
 SENATOR SHARP asked Ms. Andreen if she knows of any instances in              
 which the people involved in domestic violence had a concealed                
 carry permit.                                                                 
 MS. ANDREEN replied she is not aware of any.                                  
 Number 454                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN commented he believes Ms. Andreen could just              
 post a sign on the premises excluding concealed carrying.                     
 CHAIR JAMES responded that would not be allowable with the                    
 committee substitute.                                                         
 Number 458                                                                    
 CHAIR JAMES adjourned the joint meeting of the House and Senate               
 State Affairs Committees at 5:37 p.m.                                         

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