Legislature(2007 - 2008)BUTROVICH 205
04/04/2007 04:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| Confirmation Hearing - Adf&g, Commissioner-designate Denby Lloyd | |
| SB103 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| *+ | SB 103 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
April 4, 2007
4:42 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Charlie Huggins, Chair
Senator Bert Stedman, Vice Chair
Senator Lyda Green
Senator Gary Stevens
Senator Bill Wielechowski
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Lesil McGuire
Senator Thomas Wagoner
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Confirmation Hearing - Denby Lloyd, Commissioner Alaska
Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G)
CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
SENATE BILL NO. 103
"An Act authorizing the transfer of land from the Alaska
Railroad Corporation to Eklutna, Inc.; and providing for an
effective date."
MOVED SB 103 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 103
SHORT TITLE: LAND TRANSFERS ALASKA RR & EKLUTNA
SPONSOR(s): RESOURCES
03/02/07 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/02/07 (S) RES
04/04/07 (S) RES AT 4:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
WITNESS REGISTER
DENBY LLOYD, Acting Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G)
Juneau AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Confirmation hearing for appointment.
PAT GAMBLE, President and CEO
Alaska Railroad Corporation (ARRC)
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 103.
CURTIS MCQUEEN
Corporate Affairs
Eklutna, Inc.
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 103.
JIM ARNESEN, Land Manager
Eklutna AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 103.
DANIEL ALEX, Tribal Administrator
Native Village of Eklutna
Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 103.
BONNE' WOLSTAD
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 103.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CHAIR CHARLIE HUGGINS called the Senate Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 4:42:17 PM. Present at the call to
order were Senators Wielechowski, Stedman, Stevens and Huggins.
Senator Green joined the committee at 4:43:23 PM.
^Confirmation Hearing - ADF&G, Commissioner-designate Denby
Lloyd
4:43:43 PM
DENBY LLOYD, Commissioner-designate for the Alaska Department of
Fish and Game (ADF&G) Denby Lloyd said his expertise comes from
commercial fishing. He looked forward to the challenge of being
commissioner overseeing sport fishing and game management,
subsistence and various policy issues that involve management
and utilization of fish and wildlife in Alaska. He looked
forward to treating constituents in a fair and equitable manner
and bringing science and prudent policy analysis to the
performance of that job. He sought to assure everyone that there
would be no favoritism in the commissioner's office - a policy
he has displayed in the past in managing among commercial
fishing groups.
4:44:51 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said they learned recently about what the
court has declared to be a bounty on wolves and asked if that
was his decision.
MR. LLOYD replied yes; it was his decision to create an
incentive for increased participation in the wolf control effort
and at the same time to collect usable scientific samples. He
was advised at the time that there was distinction between a
bounty and sample collecting. He said this type of sample
gathering has been performed in the recent past and he hadn't
anticipated legal difficulties.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he had consulted with the state's
attorneys before making this decision.
MR. LLOYD replied no, that the attorney was out of town at the
time, and that he had consulted within the department.
4:46:12 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he intended to pursue the killing
of wolves by helicopter.
MR. LLOYD replied that he hadn't decided that yet.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked him what factors he would consider in
making that decision.
MR. LLOYD replied that the pragmatic factors would be the snow
conditions, the likelihood of success, the number of animals
left in a particular unit between where they are now and their
objective, logistic considerations and policy considerations
within the governor's office.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked him to explain policy considerations
within the governor's office.
MR. LLOYD replied that this governor and past governors have had
to weigh the efficacy of these types of efforts versus the
potential resistance to using them by other constituent groups.
Given that the governor is the chief executive, he would follow
her lead.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if it was appropriate to make these
types of wildlife decisions based on politics instead of
science.
MR. LLOYD replied there are always public policy aspects to the
decisions the department makes. Generally, the department
prepares the scientific information and forwards those
directions to the policy makers. "Often times we're going to the
Board of Game, to the Board of Fisheries, and often times also
to the Office of the Governor."
4:48:16 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what his position was on the recent
Board of Game decision to allow the trapping of wolverines in
Anchorage.
MR. LLOYD replied that he didn't have a personal position on
that issue and wasn't real familiar with it. He knew there were
competing views within the department's staff on whether it
should be allowed. He thought it was part of the role of the
Board of Game to make those choices when there was no clear
technical guidance from the department.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked when he makes decisions based on
predator control, for instance, what would be his approach in
terms of policy and science.
MR. LLOYD replied that his approach is to provide a good
scientific basis for any exercise the department engages in. It
is a public policy choice to either have a population of
ungulates that is at low levels with high predator populations
or to shift that balance in order to achieve a goal.
Scientifically, the department can document that predator
control in some areas can result in an increase of ungulate
population that can be harvested by human beings for consumption
or sport, but that comes back into the public policy arena.
4:49:59 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked Mr. Lloyd to explain why he wanted
the number of wolves in certain areas decreased down to 20 or 30
percent of what they are now.
MR. LLOYD replied that as he understands the science and he has
been advised by personnel in the Division of Wildlife
Conservation that wolves have large litters and reproduce at a
fast rate and in order to be effective at wolf control, you have
to reduce the population by about 80 percent - so that would
leave 20 percent in those areas.
4:50:58 PM
SENATOR STEVENS asked him for some background on the issue of
predator control and who advocates for it.
MR. LLOYD replied that predator control in this instance is a
relatively new issue to him, but he is engaged in a program that
focuses on five areas in the state with a possible addition of
two or three others. This involves less than 10 percent of the
land mass in Alaska and many areas like federally controlled
wilderness or national parks would not allow such exercises.
Making public policy choices to increase moose and caribou
populations by virtue of predator control on portions of state
lands is reasonable and these choices have been made through the
Legislature with intensive management law and through the Board
of Game deliberations.
He couldn't really characterize a constituency behind predator
control, but he said there are many sport and subsistence users
who are looking for increased moose and caribou populations in
several areas of the state and they want the department and the
state to help in that regard by reducing predation by predators
so that predations can be substituted by humans for human use
and consumption.
4:52:59 PM
SENATOR STEVENS said he thought the department had tried for
years to balance the many demands on it and that often politics
entered into it. He stated that he had known Mr. Lloyd for many
years and he has a great deal of respect for him. He asked what
his theory is of managing large groups of people.
MR. LLOYD replied that he was director of the Division of
Commercial Fisheries two different times and was regional
supervisor in the Kodiak Office; he had scientific research and
management background, as well. His management perspective
changed as his responsibilities changed and when he was a
project leader, he looked out for the safety and efficacy of the
assignment. At mid-management level, he looked to buffer,
promote and defend the staff in their ability to accomplish
their tasks - making sure they were provided with good personnel
services and budgetary services. At a more senior level, he
brought the broader perspective that public policy demands. He
said:
We have, I think, an enviable constitution that leads
or guides our resource management program in the
department and we have an enviable system of
regulatory development through the Boards of Fisheries
and Game. I look forward to working with the
Legislature, the Administration and with the Boards to
figure out what the appropriate public policy
direction will be for the department and then to carry
that out in a scientifically defensible manner.
4:55:58 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN said even though this is a Board of Fisheries
issue, he has heard there doesn't seem to be a fair allocation
of red crab because it is a depressed biomass and 20 percent of
it went to the personal use fishery.
MR. LLOYD responded that the department provides scientific
information to the Board of Fisheries so it can make informed
decisions, but he couldn't comment on what he thought the
decisions should be. He said the department, in responding to a
number of concerns from the fleet, had done a thorough review of
its red crab survey methodology and had included outside
reviewers to help. They hadn't accommodated all of the concerns,
but had made a fair amount of movement.
4:58:49 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what his position was on the federal
recommendation to reduce the sport halibut catch for charter
boats down to one fish per day.
MR. LLOYD replied that he wrote a letter to Dr. Jim Balsager of
the National Marine Fisheries Service who is also on the Halibut
Commission that made that decision and asked them to reconsider
because a one-fish bag limit was unnecessarily onerous to the
sport fish charter industry in that the harvest reduction
objectives they were looking for could have been accommodated in
other ways. Since that time, the federal Secretary of State and
Secretary of Commerce have rescinded that action and they are
going through final rule-making now to institute a one-plus bag
limit for Southeast Alaska. That is likely to look like one fish
of any size plus one fish less than 32 inches. In Southcentral
Alaska, by virtue of a department action to limit skipper and
crew harvest, the federal government decided it didn't need to
impose any reduction in the bag limit from two fish per day. So,
he thinks, some headway was made with the federal system and he
hoped to bring the issue back to the North Pacific Council
rather than to the Halibut Commission.
5:00:56 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how active a role he intends to take
with the Pebble Mine development. Some people claim it will have
a tremendous impact on the wildlife and the fishery.
MR. LLOYD replied that presuming it will be a major mining
effort impacts are likely to happen unless there is good project
review and potential mitigation. He stated:
I'm following the governor's lead in this respect in
that so far as we can provide the opportunity to have
that mine development - great. But the expectation is
that it will be developed in such a way that there is
no net impact on fisheries out there. And our
department will be directly involved in that. We've
already modified the MOU between the Department of
Natural Resources and Fish and Game so that Fish and
Game is directly involved with that program review
with the Department of Natural Resources.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI went back to the predator control issue and
said that wolves are one of the predators, but studies also show
significant predation from grizzly bears and even golden eagles.
He asked if he intended to expand the program to include those
other types of wildlife.
MR. LLOYD replied that it was very possible the program would be
expanded to not only grizzly bears, but black bears, in some
instances, because of predation on moose and caribou. He said he
would work with the Board of Game to determine which prudent
control measures ought to be applied to bears.
5:02:52 PM
SENATOR STEVENS asked what his goals would be in the
commissioner's job of sitting on the Board of the North Pacific
Management Council.
MR. LLOYD replied that as commissioner of ADF&G he has one of
the 11 voting seats on the Council and 6 of them are Alaskan
appointees. If this majority is utilized in a reasonable
fashion, the interests of Alaska ought to be well represented on
the Council and he would look for the opportunity to benefit
coastal communities rather than any specific harvester or
processing group.
5:04:21 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS noted the list of both the opposition and support
for Mr. Lloyd. He said he would support him if the governor
does, but he wanted to take the liberty as a chairman to talk to
him and characterize the people who have concerns.
He said one of Mr. Lloyd's first decisions was to hire an
immediate subordinate and that he hired that person so he
wouldn't be "campaigned." Chair Huggins reminded him that he is
managing the state's fish and game for abundance and sustained
yield and they belong to the people of Alaska.
CHAIR HUGGINS also advised that while he supports predator
control, he thought the state would lose on the issues of
bounties and helicopters. He asked Mr. Lloyd to broaden his
perspective and be more collaborative in his decision-making,
because "that predator control program belongs to the State of
Alaska and we suffer the consequences if we don't have that in
place."
5:07:36 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS went on to the issue of escapement in the Upper
Cook Inlet where he lives and said on behalf of his constituents
that the fish run a gauntlet there and he wants some of them to
reach Upper Cook Inlet. Also, his hunter friends want to hunt
moose in Unit 16B, which is now closed. It's one of the larger
game units in the state that is close to a metropolitan area and
the commissioner might need to consider protecting the moose
there.
He encouraged him to foster trust and confidence and he advised:
The way you get that is you go out and you engage those groups
and foster their trust and confidence in your leadership.
5:09:51 PM
SENATOR STEVENS moved to forward the name of Denby Lloyd to the
full body for consideration. There were no objections and it was
so ordered.
5:10:16 PM at ease 5:13:15 PM
SB 103-LAND TRANSFERS ALASKA RR & EKLUTNA
CHAIR HUGGINS announced SB 103 to be up for consideration.
5:13:58 PM
PAT GAMBLE, President and CEO, Alaska Railroad Corporation
(ARRC), supported SB 103 saying that in accordance with the
Railroad Transfer Act, the ARRC seeks permission from the
legislature to transfer about 48 acres of ARRC property to
Eklutna Inc. with the blessing of Eklutna Village. The purpose
of the transfer is to end a long-standing gridlock over this
particular piece of property that started out as a quarry. It
was quarried for a number of years until such time as they
became aware that it was also a significant cultural icon in the
history of the Eklutnas. They became gridlocked in terms of
using any quarry product and figured any future mining
possibilities were very remote. After much unsuccessful
litigation, they decided the right thing to do was recognize it
as a cultural issue and resolve it by signing the land over to
the Eklutnas. In addition, Eklutna, Inc. and CIRI, to the extent
that it has rights under the surface of lands all through this
particular area, have a lot of interests that the Railroad
wanted to further over time.
5:17:43 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what the status of the land is to the
Railroad right now.
MR. GAMBLE replied that it is one of fee simple ownership.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what the ARRC would get in exchange
for the transfer.
MR. GAMBLE replied that the transfer is not value for value, but
rather:
We are transferring the property just simply because
we feel that it's rightfully theirs and we're not
going to use it. We're not going to mine the quarry
any more as we had over a number of years. In the
sense that there's an exchange, they have agreed that
any rock that is currently laying on the ground that
was shot in the past - it's been there for several
years - any rock of whatever size that would be part
of a cleanup that we would go in and do and bring the
materials out in order to leave the land clean, we
could have. In addition, if there was any desire of
Eklutna Village or Eklutna Inc to try to landscape the
face of what has already been shot, quarried, over the
years and to try to clean that up and make it look a
little more presentable, we're certainly amenable to
going in and with certain restrictions doing that
cleanup and again picking up whatever comes off the
face as we clean that up and take that out, too,
before we roll the track up.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how he can say the land belongs to
the Railroad in fee simple, but yet the land rightfully belongs
to Eklutna.
MR. GAMBLE explained that's part of the cultural determination
he and his staff made when looking into the history of how the
land came into the Railroad's hands. "Things were done in a way
that we probably would not accept today." The objection raised
by the Eklutna Village in the late 90s highlighted this issue to
the point where their interests were recognized finally by the
Railroad and the federal government.
5:20:07 PM
He related that the history goes back to World War II when the
Eklutna Village offered the quarry to the Army to use. The Army
ran the Railroad in those days. After the war ended, the Native
School that owned the property closed the quarry and moved,
surplusing the land. The Railroad asked for the quarry and the
Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA), not the Village, gave it to
them. The Village felt like it had been sold out at that point.
This is the story he heard over and over again.
He explained that in the North Anchorage Land Agreement (NALA)
the Railroad was given the right to mine the quarry down to the
flat ground. However, the very name "Eklutna" talks about the
geographical features [the two knobs on either side of the
river] that were being mined away.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if this property had an appraisal.
MR. GAMBLE replied no.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he knew what it was worth.
MR. GAMBLE answered no.
5:21:59 PM
CURTIS MCQUEEN, Corporate Affairs, Eklutna Inc., supported SB
130 and added that this is a 30-year plus wound for Eklutna Inc.
and the Native Village of Eklutna. They both serve the same
clients and work very close together. Eklutna Inc. is the for-
profit corporation and the Village is the federally recognized
tribe. "Elutnoi" means the river that runs between and the two
knobs on either side of the river are what Eklutna is to the
people. To have them continue to be mined down to flat ground
goes to the core of their identity. With Mr. Gamble's arrival to
the Railroad, it was recognized as a long-term issue and other
mutually favorable long-term issues were found that they could
work together on in terms of land trades.
5:23:58 PM
JIM ARNESEN, Land Manager, Eklutna, Inc., said one thing that
has been left out so far is the tie-in to the Alaska Native
Claims Settlement Act (ANSCA) and the Alaska National Interest
Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA). The Railroad had temporary
rights to this property which would self-extinguish when it
could no longer use the property. ANILCA didn't deal with every
land issue and this property was envisioned to go back to
Eklutna over 30 years ago in ANSCA.
5:25:28 PM
DANIEL ALEX, Tribal Administrator, Native Village of Eklutna,
supported Mr. McQueen's comments that only temporary use was
granted. Section 3 of the ANSCA said that Eklutna, Inc. was
entitled to the property. He mentioned that Eklutna, Inc.
signed an MOU with the ARRC saying it could use the materials
that were already quarried and that the Railroad would
restructure the landscape once it was done.
5:27:25 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if anyone objects to this transaction.
MR. ALEX replied that the Council speaks for the Native Village
of Eklutna and it supports the MOU.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked who signed the MOU dated January 22, 2007.
He saw the signatures of Mr. Gamble and Mr. Alex.
MR. ALEX responded that the MOU dates back before he became the
tribal administrator. He thought Jerry [indisc.] was deputy
executive officer. The MOU went back a couple of years.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if he was talking about the 1982 version.
MR. ALEX replied [indisc.].
5:29:39 PM
MR. MCQUEEN clarified that for the last 2.5 years the Native
Village of Eklutna and the ARRC have had a MOU that contained
certain dates. As those dates have come up, they have been
reaffirmed by signing amendments to continue the MOU. This goes
back quite a long way.
5:30:27 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if there were other aspects to the land
transfer agreement the legislature should be aware of.
MR. MCQUEEN replied that there are some conditions have been
worked out with the ARRC regarding blasting overhangs that might
be dangerous - including a schedule and times of days and nights
they need to be respectful of. However, they all agree that the
sooner they can get in and get that stock pile off the ground,
the better. They have requested that this summer season be the
one they do it in.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked Mr. Gamble if the Railroad could meet those
cleanup obligations. He indicated yes.
5:31:53 PM
BONNE' WOLSTAD, Fairbanks, said she was glad the ARRC recognized
the ownership issues and was working to solve them.
SENATOR STEDMAN commended the Railroad on taking a proactive
direction in settling this issue and setting a good example in
how to resolve other similar situations. He is comfortable with
the settlement, but he would have liked to see an appraisal.
5:34:06 PM
He asked if there is a Railroad right-of-way that goes into the
quarry site that isn't referenced on the aerial survey.
MR. GAMBLE replied that the right-of-way is the spur line going
into the quarry and that would be part of the cleanup. As they
bring the material out it is their intention to pull the rail up
and return the right-of-way strip to its natural look as much as
possible. So, the main line which is a couple hundred yards down
from that spur will then bypass the entire piece of property.
5:35:05 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked since this is a cultural and historic
site, is it fair to say the Eklutna Village has no plans to mine
or develop the property.
MR. MCQUEEN replied that is correct; they are working to keep
that area in its pristine natural state. Eklutna, Inc. has other
lands outside of this area that may potentially be mine-able
rock, but do not have cultural significance and do not have the
ties to the Eklutna River that these two knobs have.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if any municipalities in the area
have weighed in either in support of or opposed to this plan.
MR. MCQUEEN replied that they have had tremendous support from
Mayor Begich and the NALA has a resolution in favor of it.
5:37:12 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if the planning and zoning department
had granted a conditional use permit.
MR. MCQUEEN replied that a conditional permit has been granted
recently to remove the remaining rock, but for nothing else.
5:37:49 PM
SENATOR STEVENS asked who gave the quarry to the Railroad after
the Army was done with it.
MR. GAMBLE replied the BIA closed the school and moved it; the
land that had been retained for the school grounds went up for
grabs. The ARRC said it wanted the quarry and in the original
document review, a letter was found between the Railroad and the
BIA in which the BIA asked a couple of questions, those were
answered, and very simply the land was transferred to the
Railroad.
SENATOR STEVENS said he thought this was the right thing to do.
5:39:33 PM
MR. GAMBLE added that the federal government also removed its
objection when it saw the progress that had been made and
reviewed the signed documents going forward to a resolution.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked Mr. Alex if he supported the land transfer.
MR. ALEX replied yes.
SENATOR STEDMAN moved to pass SB 103 from committee with
individual recommendations. There were no objections and it was
so ordered. There being no further business to come before the
committee, Chair Huggins adjourned the meeting at 5:40:43 PM.
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