Legislature(1997 - 1998)
01/27/1997 03:35 PM Senate RES
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SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
January 27, 1997
3:35 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Bert Sharp
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator John Torgerson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Department of Environmental Conservation Overview Presentation by
Commissioner Michelle Brown and Mr. Keith Kelton, Director,
Division of Facility Construction and Operation
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-3, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:35 p.m. and announced the DEC Overview.
COMMISSIONER MICHELLE BROWN stated that the quality of Alaska's
air, water, and land resources is central to our social and
economic future. The management of these resources should be based
upon sound science, fairness, consistency, public involvement, and
common sense. She said they are here to solve problems and to do
development right, working toward compliance and technical
assistance as their mission.
She pointed out that 25% of their core services are in the areas of
safe food and drinking water, proper sanitation, and better waste
disposal. In Alaska many of these fundamental services are
performed by the State.
COMMISSIONER BROWN explained that disciplined budgeting has been
done with some sacrificing their core services. Their general fund
dollars have decreased by 70%. Some of this has been replaced with
GF matched and program receipts, but even accounting for these the
funding had decreased 43%. This decrease is very problematic, she
said, because there are no other sources of funding available for
the core public health services.
Number 82
COMMISSIONER BROWN reported that their facilities construction and
operation mission is to eliminate the honey bucket systems in rural
Alaska. The Division of Facility Construction and Operation (FC&O)
administers grants and loans and provides operational systems on a
daily basis to municipal and village governments for water, sewer,
and solid waste systems. They also work with the Governor's
Washington Office and the Congressional delegation to secure
consistent funding for these projects. Last year the work in this
division improved the lives of approximately 800 rural Alaskan
children by providing safe drinking water and sanitary sewage
disposal to 520 households where it was previously being hauled.
They have also improved water and sewer handling to an additional
900 households. In '98 they plan to add another 1,100 households.
Their remote maintenance workers provide training and technical
assistance to 126 rural communities and 280 individuals have been
trained to pass operator certification exams. These projects also
generate seasonal employment for over 1,000 rural resident and
provide about $8 million in wages. The municipal program results
in about 300 construction jobs yearly. Urban Alaska engineering
firms, vendors, and freight operators also benefit from about $12 -
$15 million in business from these projects, she said.
The Environmental Health Division inspects almost 900 fish
processing facilities in the State. Alaska is the largest producer
of wild salmon in the country and our processors produce 50% of the
nation's seafood. They recently won the Vice President's Hammer
award for streamlining government by creating with FDA a regional
seafood data base that enable our products to get on the European
market quicker.
There is a food safety program that inspects over 4,000 facilities
each year, COMMISSIONER BROWN said. They are moving to a risk
based inspection program to ensure that their resources are devoted
to the areas posing the greatest health risk. Both their meat
inspection and food safety programs received federal recognition
this year as exemplary programs.
COMMISSIONER BROWN reported that the Air and Water Division assists
500 operators who need air permits. Yearly they issue 50
construction permits and 150 operating permits and do site specific
technical assistance visits to 250 operators. They work with local
governments in solving their air quality programs and are
developing a monitoring plan for radio-active material that may be
leaking on Amchitka Island. They have pending before EPA a request
to exempt Alaska from the low-sulphur fuel diesel requirements for
cars and trucks, because the millions of dollars it would take can
not be justified by the small health benefits to be achieved.
Number 140
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if that included all uses of diesel.
COMMISSIONER BROWN answered that this requirement deals with mobile
sources like cars and trucks. Stationary sources are covered by
permits and they have emissions limits. A problem is created when
mobile sources move in as part of a stationary operation for some
period of time - like a drilling rig. There are two alternatives:
to remodel the emission permits or to use low-sulphur fuel.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what would be the availability and cost of
low-sulphur fuel which is not available in Alaska. COMMISSIONER
BROWN replied that the operators felt it was not a particular
hardship, but the refiners felt it caused them a serious problem,
because if they weren't producing it, they would loose the market
share. Therefore, they pulled the regulation back and are
continuing to work on it.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD commented that there are mobile sources, fixed
engines, and non-road engines. He asked what a D10 would be.
COMMISSIONER BROWN replied that it would be covered under the
permit for the stationary facility.
Number 176
COMMISSIONER BROWN continued saying that the Division of Water
certifies federal water discharge permits for about four major
facilities per year and about 20 municipal waste water discharges.
They also approved 60 major forest plans and provide technical
assistance to 15 timber operations. They complete approximately
300 water quality certifications for dredge and fuel permits and
review another 200 permits for compliance with State water quality
requirements, focusing on those that have significant water-shed
impacts.
This year they launched a public water quality work group to work
on 12 standards which were identified by the public and industry as
causing them day-to-day problems.
The State-wide Public Service Division routinely gets about 13,000
requests for information and assistance each year. This group
works with communities and large facilities to prioritize issues on
a department-wide basis. This group also works with local
communities to find solutions to avoid costly replacement of
equipment or shipment outside of waste materials. They helped
develop an excess materials exchange that saved Alaska business
about $500 thousand dollars so far as well as reduced loads on land
fills. They also have a pit-stop program, a service to the auto-
motive sector which provides technical assistance to 220 small
businesses on how to manage and reduce pollution.
The Spill Prevention and Response Division last year cleaned up 135
additional contaminated sites from previous years and they have
major clean-ups underway at King Salmon, the Pribiloff Islands, the
PAPC Site in Sitka, and they are beginning on KPC Site in
Ketchikan. They turned over initial spill response equipment to 14
local communities to enhance their efforts to respond to spills
rather than have them depend upon the State. They have also
adopted best-available technology regulations for the State's Oil
Pollution Prevention and Response Statute.
Right now, they have launched an initiative to develop State-wide
risk based clean-up standards for contaminated sites which tailors
clean-up standards to the risks that are posed by the type of
contaminant and the location. She said there has been a major
achievement in Prince William Sound where the TAPS owners have
agreed to enhance the current tug escort and rescue capacity and
are bringing up new state-of-the-art vessels and the first one will
be here in about three months.
Administrative Services was put under single management about a
year and a half ago allowing them to be more efficient, to decrease
staff, and to simplify department-wide practices such as billings.
Number 261
COMMISSIONER BROWN reviewed the status of adopted legislation that
the committee requested by reading the hand-out available in the
packets.
Number 281
SENATOR LEMAN asked regarding HB 208 if the Department's adopted
seafood quality regulations was the same as the HASP Program.
COMMISSIONER BROWN replied that they are different, but she said
she would check on it for him.
Regarding SB 69, SENATOR LEMAN noted that he had seen a newsletter
from the Prince William Sound Aquaculture Association saying that
they had some concerns about their liability regarding disposal and
asked what their concern was. COMMISSIONER BROWN explained that
with the glut of salmon last year, the food banks were afraid to
accept some of the food that was past its prime, so they asked them
for guidance.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he agreed that the quality of the product once
it was distributed was an important issue.
COMMISSIONER BROWN said that they license pesticide applicators and
noted that is one of the professional licenses that can be withheld
if a person is behind on child support payments.
SENATOR HALFORD asked if they were coming up with a temporary
license for those who lose their license under the "must be
withheld" as other agencies were doing. She said she would find
out for him.
COMMISSIONER BROWN said the National Toxics Rule has created
serious permitting problems without adding any health protections,
because Alaska's water is naturally high in arsenic and she met
with the EPA to get a stay until they do further studies.
SENATOR LEMAN said he remembered other problems with the Toxics
Rule having to do with the tabulation of the discharge waste of oil
operations as toxic. She answered that she is negotiating with EPA
on that issue as well as a number of others.
COMMISSIONER BROWN said since last year's budget they have sought
and received three increases for this year: $570,000 in designated
program receipts for water permits and increases for clean-up
oversite from the Exxon Valdez Trustee Council for specific
projects. The department has two funding requests for increases.
One is for the storage tank assistance program and the other is for
APC for teaching clean-up oversite. They may also seek an
additional $100,000 in federal receipt authority for requirements
under the reauthorized Safe Drinking Water Act.
COMMISSIONER BROWN explained that there was a more detailed summary
of their division in their packet. Pages 11 and 12 have a detailed
list of changes in their budget. She said she thought they had
made a lot of progress in DEC in achieving budget clarity and they
have provided a valuable service for the dollars that have been
spent. All in all they have nurtured a cooperative mediated
approach to environmental management. They have some continued
budget challenges due to the decrease in general funds. Some of
these have been offset by increases in federal funds and general
program receipts.
She said they want to increase their ability to do compliance
assistance with industry agency work groups and ambient conditions
monitoring. The department needs to do a better job on handling
water discharge permits quicker and with better analysis
particularly for operators who are unable to pay the fees for that.
There are no general funds to do that, she noted.
Number 453
SENATOR LINCOLN requested a breakdown and comparison of communities
that are still on the honey bucket system with unsafe water
conditions because she thought that would give them a better idea
of where they are in the State. COMMISSIONER BROWN replied that
she would do that for her and said that they are at a little over
50% with households that need to have systems put in. They
anticipate being at about 79% in 2000.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if they had come up with some way to deal
with households three feet above sea level. COMMISSIONER BROWN
replied that they use a mix of systems and work with a community to
figure out what will work best.
MR. KEITH KELTON responded that there was no one answer. There
were two choices in a situation like that - a vacuum system that's
above ground or a hauling system in closed containers.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he didn't think there were many people in the
room who were on a developed system. If they were going to include
the cost of running water and sewer lines, he wanted his and his
neighbor's house included. He would also like to see what the cost
per household was for developing the systems they have put in so
far.
Number 524
SENATOR LINCOLN said they had to also look at the economy in a
given area as well. Otherwise a simple solution would be for
everyone to just move. She said the State has the responsibility
for providing basic health care. She was also concerned with the
military sites being cleaned up, because they leave behind some of
the worst contaminated areas that she has seen.
COMMISSIONER BROWN responded that with the help of our
Congressional delegation, the department had been aggressive on
this issue. The agreement they have with King Salmon is a one-of-
a-kind for the nation in which the military is letting the State
determine when the site is clean.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked who monitors the sites. COMMISSIONER BROWN
answered that she works with DOD to rank sites and ultimately
Congress decides where the money is going to come from. The
Department monitors the sites.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if general fund money was being used to do
the monitoring on Amchitka. She replied no.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she wanted to know how much money we had lost
for programs the department wanted to continue and what the impact
of centralization was on rural communities.
TAPE 97-3, SIDE B
Number 590
COMMISSIONER BROWN replied that they are down slightly on federal
dollars, but the problem is that federal dollars direct them to do
certain programs that may not be what the department thinks is the
most important. It's the loss of general funds that's the problem.
She said they had not centralized, but they have programs that have
united so that the program development and implementation is all
under single leadership for continuity.
SENATOR GREEN asked about disposal of hazardous material.
COMMISSIONER BROWN explained that generally hazardous waste
disposal is run by land fill operators who set the terms and
conditions for them. There are periods in the summer when the
department does hazardous material pick-ups. A new program funded
by Exxon Valdez money covered the Prince William Sound Communities,
but they are fairly expensive programs.
MR. KELTON added that Anchorage has facilities for paints,
batteries, etc.
Number 529
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if it was true that five years ago there were
five DEC employees in Fairbanks and today there are 45.
COMMISSIONER BROWN said she would get the exact numbers.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked where they were on plan approvals for oil
spill response. She replied that every operator has to have
contingency plans and they are approved as they come in.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that now two men are required to be on the
bridge of the tug boat because the person at the wheel may be
rendered unconscious. COMMISSIONER BROWN responded that the risk
assessment recently done in Prince William Sound by a coalition of
emissions systems advisory groups pointed that out as a risk.
Industry has determined that they want to have extra personnel to
offset that, but it hasn't been a requirement in the contingency
plan.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted that right now Ketchikan has to ship its solid
waste to the Columbia River which seems to be an inordinate
expense. He asked if they could expect some help from DEC to
assist communities in finding a centralized place for all of it.
Number 473
COMMISSIONER BROWN responded that solid waste disposal was a
problem and that they were dealing mostly with federal standards.
Last year they worked with the Congressional delegation and got an
Alaskan specific exemption to solid waste laws so we could develop
programs and regulations for very small facilities that allow us to
focus on continual incremental improvements rather than an all or
nothing compliance scenario. EPA has indicated interim approval of
those and she expects to get primacy of the program this year.
MR. KELTON added that the Southeast Conference has put solid waste
as a number one priority and have looked at regionalization
concepts. He said the State can't develop regional concepts a
hoped their regulations were developed so as to promote regional
interest in taking on this responsibility.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that the garbage regulations are so
difficult to comply with that nobody can meet them.
Number 435
MR. KELTON responded that it is working in Southeast Alaska at a
fairly reasonable cost in the small community of Thorne Bay. DEC
has assisted that community in putting in a bailer and a new land
fill which they are able to operate for a reasonable amount of
money. The situation in Ketchikan was a local decision that he
personally didn't support since he had funds for an incinerator
which the city didn't use for three or four years. It was their
choice to haul it south.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if it was legal under State laws to have a
burn barrel and burn your trash and bury what's left in the barrel
every three months. MR. KELTON answered that as long as you are
outside an area that has a local ordinance, it's legal. Individual
on-lot disposal is approved.
Number 392
SENATOR LEMAN asked if there were any plans approved for tankers
operating in Cook Inlet. COMMISSIONER BROWN answered that all
operators in Cook Inlet do have plans. She explained that the
operators apply together because they have a single responder who
does a portion of it for them.
SENATOR LEMAN asked her to comment on the progress of the storage
tank efforts. COMMISSIONER BROWN said she would get the figures to
him and said the legislature each year has provided funding to them
for upgrades as well as clean-ups.
SENATOR HALFORD asked what happened if they didn't fund the capital
portion of it this year. COMMISSIONER BROWN replied that projects
under way and new ones slated just wouldn't happen. The operators
have come to depend on this program.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if areas other than Southeast Alaska that
don't percolate, requiring an unconventional system, need to have
DEC have DEC approval. She answered that an unconventional
system's plan still needed to be approved by DEC throughout the
State. She added that lenders sometimes require more than one
health authority to say it will work.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if honey buckets were conventional systems in
the areas Senator Lincoln was referring to (like in Rampart).
COMMISSIONER BROWN answered that they didn't offer permits or plan
approval, because that's a system that is already in place. She
explained that those situations are usually where local governments
are not allowing the building permit, because they want someone to
review the plan. She said they encourage local government to run
their own domestic waste water program and it is up to them to
determine their standards.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that it seemed to him that a community
could choose to opt out of the process entirely. That way they
would never see DEC in their community. COMMISSIONER BROWN replied
that if a local government takes over the program, they can run it
however they chose. However, it wouldn't take long for a program
like that to crash and burn. It has happened all over the State.
SENATOR TAYLOR explained that he was concerned that it was possible
for a community to let things go until it was so bad that it became
some one else's problem when other communities were spending money
and putting in approved systems. He wanted to see some uniformity.
COMMISSIONER BROWN replied that their regulations were uniform. An
unconventional system required plan approval for single families.
If a local community takes over an entire program, they could
change it. To the extent that a community hasn't done that, their
regulations are uniform throughout the State.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that he saw the same pictures of disposal
problems year after year.
Number 300
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if it was their opinion that conventional
systems in the average Alaska climate work or are they simply
storage and transportation systems to eventually fill up the entire
leach capacity of the area. MR. KELTON said his opinion was that
any septic tank system in this State is ultimately going to fail.
It's a question of time and conditions vary greatly.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD clarified that it seemed to him that if someone
wanted to try something new that very well may work, a person
needed a permit, but if you put in a conventional system that they
know doesn't work, a person doesn't need a permit. COMMISSIONER
BROWN said it was important to note that conventional systems that
will ultimately fail, will work for periods of time. It is
imperfect, but it does work temporarily.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said it was his opinion that they should be easier
on some alternative technologies and to encourage them more than
their set of criteria seems to be doing.
Number 232
SENATOR LEMAN commented that "fail" was an unfortunate use of
words, because it's the same as tires on a car. They will fail
eventually, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. You
should use them and then replace them at an appropriate time. A
septic system may eventually clog, but if it's done properly he
thought it could be quite adequate in many cases. He agreed with
Senator Halford, though, that alternative technologies should be
considered as part of the conventional that don't require plan
approval.
COMMISSIONER BROWN clarified that regulations now approve a certain
kind of package plant. A person needs to submit how it will work
under his conditions.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked the Department's view of combustion
incinerator toilets. COMMISSIONER BROWN replied that they are
expensive. MR. KELTON said they have estimated up to $200 per
month for a family of four to operate. In areas with natural gas
it would be more economical. The system is good.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if there was a housing project, did there
need to be an approved plan for waste. COMMISSIONER BROWN answered
that a dwelling for multiple families required approval. SENATOR
LINCOLN said that wasn't what was happening in some communities
like Rampart where there is a project going in right now. The
system that they are using is dumping their waste on a hole in the
snow on top of the ground. No one has monitored that.
MR. KELTON asked if the liquid lagoon in Rampart was being used.
SENATOR LINCOLN explained that the lagoon in Rampart goes from the
laundromat and the school and that no one hauled their waste to the
lagoon. She said the point was that in most villages people don't
haul their waste to a lagoon.
COMMISSIONER BROWN explained that DEC doesn't have legions of
inspectors who go out to check on how things are done. Generally
inspections happen in urban areas. She added that she didn't think
they wanted inspectors coming in to a community and "cracking
down." She thought it would be good for communities to come to
them to work together on solutions for safer ways of disposing of
waste. SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought there might be a plan for
the whole State to follow.
Number 66
CHAIRMAN HALFORD commented that because the State was unwilling to
support individual systems in the urban and suburban areas, they
tend to collectivize systems in small villages where they would be
better off with individual systems. He thought part of the reason
was the political objection to building individual systems for some
and not for others. However, he thought it would be better to
build something that would be used rather than to build something
that wouldn't be used and which no one would feel responsible for
maintaining.
COMMISSIONER BROWN agreed.
Number 28
There being no further business to come before the Committee,
CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned at 5:07 p.m.
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