Legislature(1995 - 1996)
04/05/1995 03:45 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 5, 1995
3:45 p.m
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chairman
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman
Senator Steve Frank
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
Senator Lyman Hoffman
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS
Board of Game: Walter Sampson & Larry Holmes, Jr.
Board of Fisheries: Trefon Angasan & Dr. John White
SRES - 4/5/95
SJR 20 (COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT FISHING QUOTAS) was scheduled but not
taken up on this date.
WITNESS REGISTER
Walter Sampson, Governor's Appointee to the Board of Game
P.O. Box 1088, Kotzebue, AK 99752¶265-4100
Larry Holmes, Jr., Governor's Appointee to the Board of Game
P.O. Box 454, Girdwood, AK 99587¶783-2845
Patrick Wright
Anchorage, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: supports nominees to the Board of Game
Trefon Angasan, Governor's Appointee to the Board of Fisheries
P.O. Box 100220, Anchorage, AK 99510¶842-2240
Dr. John White, Governor's Appointee to the Board of Fisheries
P.O. Box 190, Bethel, AK 99559¶543-2926
Ben Ellis
Kenai River Sportsfishing
P.O. Box 1228, Soldotna, AK ¶262-8588
POSITION STATEMENT: supports nominees to the Board of Fisheries
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 95-35, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:45 p.m. The chairman noted that the committee does not
have a quorum, so they will begin by taking testimony. The
chairman called Mr. Sampson to testify first.
Number 015
WALTER SAMPSON, Appointee to the Board of Game, stated he is
testifying from Anchorage.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN noted that the committee now has a quorum.
Number 035
MR. SAMPSON reviewed his work and life experiences.
Number 100
MR. SAMPSON stated he sees a need to involve the public. He has
had a lot of contact with people around the state, due to his work
experiences, and thinks he understands the needs of residents.
Start at the bottom with the planning process, and involve
everyone: doing so will give people respect for the decisions that
are made.
Number 150
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Sampson what his philosophy is regarding
intensive game management.
Number 155
MR. SAMPSON responded he would like to see a public process in
place to get an understanding about how the public feels about
intensive game management.
Number 195
LARRY HOLMES, Appointee to the Board of Game, testifying from
Girdwood, reviewed his work and life experiences.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Holmes if he has any ideas for solving the
wolf-control problem.
MR. HOLMES responded that is a really difficult issue. All
wildlife use needs must be met: tourism, sport hunting, subsistence
hunting, commercial, and big-game hunting. He thinks there are
places where we need to physically manage wildlife for consumptive
use, and there are areas we need to set aside for wildlife watching
and tourism. There are also places where Mr. Holmes thinks those
uses are compatible and not mutually exclusive. We need to create
an atmosphere where everyone can come to the table and work toward
a common goal, instead of bouncing back and forth. Mr. Holmes is
not concerned with what out-of-state interests think, but he does
think we should work with all in-state interests.
Number 275
SENATOR TAYLOR urged Mr. Holmes to exercise discretion in predator
control. Senator Taylor does not believe public opinion has
anything to do with biological stewardship. A board which acts
only with public consensus has no leadership abilities.
Number 288
MR. HOLMES agreed with Senator Taylor. But he does think it is the
responsibility of the board to incorporate a public process. The
board must then make the final decision. However, it is difficult
to make decisions without the proper information. The board needs
to work with ADF&G in order to get the information it needs.
Number 304
SENATOR PEARCE asked Mr. Holmes if the board is comfortable with
the information it is receiving from ADF&G.
Number 310
MR. HOLMES responded, "Yes, and no." There are times when the
board receives a good history of information from areas, and times
when it doesn't. From his background in biology and agriculture,
he does see areas where the board is not given enough information
to make a good decision.
Number 335
SENATOR PEARCE expressed frustration with the lengthy list of
projects, surveys, and data coming from ADF&G, because it seems
like a lot of the information simply drops into a black hole. She
asked Mr. Holmes if he has any specific suggestions for making the
process more efficient.
Number 349
MR. HOLMES thinks regional meetings might make the board more
efficient. The board is going to discuss this possibility soon.
The board is also considering holding these regional meetings at
more rural locations.
Number 360
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Holmes if his employer is going to have
a problem with the amount of time he is going to have to spend on
board duties.
MR. HOLMES responded that his employer has been accepting and
supportive of his appointment. They have offered to replace Mr.
Holmes with a temporary worker while he attends meetings.
Number 385
PATRICK WRIGHT, testifying from Anchorage, stated he supports Mr.
Sampson and Mr. Holmes as nominees to the Board of Game.
Number 430
TREFON ANGASAN, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testifying
from Anchorage, reviewed his work and life experiences. Mr.
Angasan believes that though the board process is rather
cumbersome, it is fair to the public.
Number 460
MR. ANGASAN suggested that proposals to the board be pre-approved
by local advisory committees. He believes that board decisions
should be based upon the best available information and public
testimony.
Number 490
SENATOR HALFORD asked Mr. Angasan where he would add or subtract
$1,000,000 from ADF&G's budget, if he had that ability.
Number 494
MR. ANGASAN replied the board really does not focus on the
department's role, other than as a provider of information.
However, if he could add $1,000,000, he would put it into research:
specifically, gsi (genetic stock identification) studies.
Number 509
SENATOR TAYLOR expressed concern over whether the board process is
appropriate, and whether there should be concern regarding regional
representation on the board.
Number 513
MR. ANGASAN responded that the three-year cycles the board goes
through can cause a rapid loss of identity. He stated one of the
things he quickly learned was to put on blinders and forget about
what is going on in one's region, in order to focus on the agenda
before the board. Regional representation simply provides a broad
mix on the board, but does not carry through to the agenda of the
board. If a board member is going to represent the public and the
issues fairly, then there won't be any skeletons in the closet.
Number 530
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Angasan if there are any other commercial
fishermen on the board.
MR. ANGASAN responded that Mr. Jacobsen from Sand Point holds an
area M seine permit. Mr. Angasan is a commercial fisherman from
Bristol Bay, and holds a drift salmon permit. Dr. White holds a
permit from the AYK fishery. Two of the six board members are
active commercial fishermen.
Number 542
SENATOR TAYLOR commented he is troubled by that, and is not willing
to turn the board over to a group of "sportsfishermen, advocacy, or
geographical representation." Senator Taylor stated he supports
Mr. Angasan's nomination, but doesn't believe there should be two
members from Bethel.
MR. ANGASAN replied that there are not two representatives from
Bethel. There is a broad mix of members. Mr. Angasan agrees with
Senator Taylor that there should be a broad mix of people on the
board.
Number 564
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Angasan to follow up on his comment
regarding board decisions being based upon the best available
information provided by ADF&G. Do you think the information the
board is receiving is reliable and accurate? Do you think the
sonar systems are effective?
Number 573
MR. ANGASAN responded that in many instances, the information
received is quite extensive. However, some information can be
taken out of context, so there is the perception that there is
misinformation from the department. But as a whole, the
information the board receives is good, solid data upon which
decisions can be based.
TAPE 95-35, SIDE B
Number 595
MR. ANGASAN stated that, in some cases, there is a need for more
information. In regard to sonar systems, there have been some
problems with counts. New technology is being developed, which
seems to be an improvement.
Number 586
SENATOR HOFFMAN asked Mr. Angasan if he has any ideas regarding
halting the outflow of commercial fishing permits to ownership in
the lower-forty-eight.
Number 582
MR. ANGASAN responded it is unfortunate that when the limited-entry
law was passed, there was no non-transferability clause included.
In the future, the state may be managing a fishery that is owned by
residents of Oregon and Washington.
SENATOR HOFFMAN asked Mr. Angasan if he sees anything the state can
do to try to reverse that trend.
MR. ANGASAN replied that the CDQ program funded a permit brokering
position to help find resident buyers for people wishing to sell
permits.
SENATOR HALFORD asked Mr. Angasan if he would support legislation
that had a delayed effective date of say, ten years, which would
repeal the transferability of limited entry permits, thereby
devaluing those permits over time. No one would lose a permit.
Those permits would come back to the state through an
apprenticeship program.
MR. ANGASAN responded that is what they advocated in the beginning.
He would certainly support such legislation. He thinks that is a
good idea, and there is no reason to have any value on permits.
There is no way for a young person in a village to acquire a
permit, even though many young people have a lot of fishing
experience, because of the high value of limited entry permits.
SENATOR HALFORD noted that the approximate value of all the limited
entry permits is estimated at 1.1 billion dollars. The fishing
industry is paying debt service on 1.1 billion dollars, which
serves no one, except a piece of paper.
Number 533
DR. JOHN WHITE, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testifying
from Anchorage, reviewed his work and life experiences.
Number 508
DR. WHITE stated he wants to serve on the board to help salvage one
of the best regulatory management systems in the United States.
The board is at a crisis juncture, and something has to change.
The public has to believe in the process, and there will have to be
a change of attitude in board members, the public, and industry.
The attitude that has developed is that the board functions as an
arbiter. The next thing that occurs is that problems go to court
and are mired down, so that the board becomes mired down in inter-
regulatory hearings. Solutions will have to be found for this
problem. Dr. White does not think increased political pressure or
judicial intervention is the solution for this problem. He thinks
the solution lies with the industry and the primary users. Working
groups and task force groups made up of those people can help solve
the problems the board is facing. Dr. White believes the board
process is in jeopardy, and thinks the board should operate more
like a corporate board.
Number 460
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Dr. White how he would approach some of the
fisheries that are in conflict with one another.
DR. WHITE thinks it is necessary to have good science. One of the
constraints ADF&G has is a fiscal constraint. But the users also
need to agree on the science. The solution would be to have task
forces agree on the science that will be used to make decisions.
Number 441
SENATOR TAYLOR expressed concern that the board is burning out
qualified members because of the large amount of time required to
serve. He asked Dr. White if there should be regional boards,
professional boards, or longer terms for board members. Should the
board be restructured in any way?
Number 430
DR. WHITE responded that public involvement is both a strength and
a weakness of the board process. One solution to the board's time
being used up by extensive public testimony would be to hire a
hearing officer to streamline the testimony. The board also needs
good planners and good mediators.
Number 407
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Dr. White to explain his comment that the
board should look for solutions over a five-year time frame. She
thinks there should be longer-term planning than five years.
Number 394
DR. WHITE agreed with Senator Lincoln regarding longer-term
planning.
Number 386
SENATOR HALFORD asked Dr. White if he has any idea how we could get
user groups to fund studies they need.
DR. WHITE replied the current problem is that research is done; the
research is debunked; then more research is done, etcetera,
etcetera. It is a never ending cycle. One possible solution would
be to get the contentious parties to agree on the studies to be
done, before any research is conducted.
SENATOR HALFORD asked how that would be done.
DR. WHITE thinks that should happen in a task-force situation.
Number 337
SENATOR HALFORD commented that what we are getting now is advocacy
science. We end up with information that no one believes, whether
it is true or not.
DR. WHITE sees it as an industry tax, because the industry ends up
supporting it. It is a cost of doing business and is very
inefficient.
Number 318
SENATOR PEARCE asked Dr. White if the board could be structured
differently, so that the board could decide what research will be
done.
Number 306
DR. WHITE doesn't know if that would help. He thinks the users
would continue to disagree with the decisions of the board. He
thinks the users, the board, and the department, in a mediated
task-force forum, should make the decisions jointly. The decisions
will not be any easier, but it will be a more efficient system, and
people will be more willing to accept the decisions that are made,
if they are involved in deciding on the studies.
Number 287
SENATOR PEARCE commented she has seen many examples where that type
of forum has not worked.
DR. WHITE stated that the success of the involvement of mediators
is still contingent upon the parties being able to accept what the
mediator has to say.
Number 268
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how we could return to a more politically
stable board.
Number 245
DR. WHITE replied that the board is having problems with political
and judicial manipulation. The board has historically functioned
well. Dr. White believes a fisherman's board is very important,
and he does not believe in a professional board. There needs to be
planning and ancillary professional expertise.
Number 216
SENATOR PEARCE disagreed. She thinks they may have different
definitions of "professional board member." She does not think
board members should be active participants in the industry,
because that causes a strong conflict of interest. She asks why
Dr. White thinks his experience makes him a better board member
than a full-time, professional board member might be.
Number 195
DR. WHITE doesn't know where Senator Pearce would find these full-
time, professional board members.
SENATOR PEARCE responded they would find these people in the same
manner they find the Oil & Gas Conservation Commission members, the
Limited Entry Commission members, and the Alaska Public Utilities
Commission members, among others.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN commented he sees dollar signs.
SENATOR LINCOLN stated she did too.
SENATOR PEARCE asked if the state wasn't spending money on the
boards today.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated we aren't spending that much money.
SENATOR PEARCE disagreed.
Number 140
BEN ELLIS, Executive Director of Kenai River Sportsfishing, stated
he supports both nominees to the Board of Fisheries.
Number 114
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Ellis if he was implying by his testimony
that Ms. Andrews and Ms. Lyons were unintelligent board members.
Is an intelligent approach only an approach with which Mr. Ellis
agrees?
MR. ELLIS replied he did not mean to cast aspersions on the
intelligence of Ms. Andrews or Ms. Lyons. Mr. Ellis stated also
that he was not implying that the only intelligent approach was one
with which he agreed: there are issues on which he does not hold
the same opinion as Mr. Angasan and Dr. White.
Number 085
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Ellis what effect he thinks there will be
on the Kenai River sportsfishery from the recent proposal [?]
before the subsistence board.
MR. ELLIS responded that it could be devastating.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Ellis if he thinks the state might ever
have to place restrictions on sportsfishermen on the Kenai River.
MR. ELLIS responded that if it is a matter of conservation,
sportsfishermen would definitely support restrictions.
Number 067
SENATOR HALFORD asked if sportsfishermen would support restrictions
as an allocation measure.
MR. ELLIS thinks that is a completely different issue. He doesn't
think sportsfishermen would agree to restrictions as an allocation
measure, when Cook Inlet commercial fishermen are already taking
ninety some odd percent of the resource.
Number 054
SENATOR HALFORD stated he would agree with Mr. Ellis' position, if
we were referring to resident sportsfishermen who were catching
their winter freezer load. But he doesn't support non-residents
catching their motorhome load to take Outside and sell.
Number 045
MR. ELLIS stated his organization would be 100% in support of
addressing that issue, because that is something they do not
support, either.
SENATOR TAYLOR agreed that is a significant problem which should be
addressed.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks some of that fish does enter the commercial
market.
SENATOR HALFORD expressed the opinion that the personal use fishery
is for Alaska residents, and that sportsfishing could have
different limits than the personal use fishery.
SENATOR TAYLOR and MR. ELLIS both agreed with Senator Halford.
TAPE 95-36, SIDE A
Number 020
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announced that SJR 20 would be held over until
Friday's committee meeting.
Number 032
CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourned the Senate Resources Committee meeting at
5:20 p.m.
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