Legislature(1999 - 2000)

02/01/1999 03:18 PM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
              SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE                                                                                        
                   February 1, 1999                                                                                             
                      3:18 P.M.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman                                                                                                  
Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman                                                                                             
Senator Pete Kelly                                                                                                              
Senator Jerry Mackie                                                                                                            
Senator Lyda Green                                                                                                              
Senator Sean Parnell                                                                                                            
Senator Georgianna Lincoln                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
All Members Present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Loren Leman                                                                                                             
Representative Scott Ogan, Co-chair, House Resources Committee                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Briefing on Glacier Bay National Park and Federal Rules                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 7                                                                                                               
"An Act relating to the University of Alaska and university land,                                                               
and authorizing the University of Alaska to select additional state                                                             
land."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     -SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 12                                                                                                              
"An Act classifying anadromous streams and tributaries; relating to                                                             
the designation of riparian areas; establishing buffers on certain                                                              
streams and relating to slope stability standards on certain                                                                    
streams; and requiring retention of low value timber along certain                                                              
water bodies where prudent."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     -MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SB 7 - See Resources Committee minutes dated 1/25/99.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SB 12 - No previous action to consider.                                                                                         
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Rob Bosworth, Deputy Commissioner                                                                                           
Department of Fish and Game                                                                                                     
P.O. Box 25526                                                                                                                  
Juneau, AK 99802-5526                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules                                                              
issue.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Tina Cunning, ANILCA Program Coordinator                                                                                    
Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                                                                              
333 Raspberry Rd.                                                                                                               
Anchorage, AK 99518-1599                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules                                                              
issue.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Deb Woodruff                                                                                                                
Gustavus, AK 99730                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules                                                              
issue.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Cathy Swiderski, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                 
Department of Law                                                                                                               
1031 W 4th Ave, Suite 200                                                                                                       
Anchorage, AK 99501-1994                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules                                                              
issue.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Jeff Jahnke, Director                                                                                                       
Division of Forestry                                                                                                            
Department of Natural Resources                                                                                                 
400 Willoughby, 3rd Floor                                                                                                       
Juneau, AK 99801-1724                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 12.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Jack Phelps, Executive Director                                                                                             
Alaska Forest Association                                                                                                       
111 Stedman, #200                                                                                                               
Ketchikan, AK 99901                                                                                                             
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 12.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-5, SIDE A                                                                                                               
Number 001                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to                                                               
order at 3:18 p.m. and announced the committee would take further                                                               
testimony regarding Glacier Bay National Park and Federal Rules.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROB BOSWORTH, Deputy Commissioner, referring to the State's 50                                                              
page statement, said that he thought there was a direct parallel                                                                
with the Resources Committee comments.  He thought the Committee                                                                
might get some calls on the dungeness crab compensation.  The                                                                   
Committee requested an extension on the application period.  The                                                                
State is asking for another federal register notice to clarify the                                                              
regulations or the process for compensation.  The issue is that                                                                 
five dungeness crab fishermen are being put out of work starting                                                                
this coming season, so it would not be appropriate to delay the                                                                 
compensation program.  However, a delay in the application period                                                               
would probably not involve a delay in the compensation program.  So                                                             
he supported the Senate's remarks.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if the deadline was set in the statute.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH replied that it was set in statute.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted that we need some help from our                                                                          
congressional delegation in that process.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH agreed and added that that was the only significant                                                                
issue he could find that was different between the two sets of                                                                  
comments.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD commented that he didn't know how we could trust                                                               
the Park Service to provide some kind of cooperative management                                                                 
with us in the future.  He understands that there is already a                                                                  
memorandum of understanding (MOU) between ADF&G and the Park                                                                    
Service and asked how they follow it and if it has been applied                                                                 
successfully.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH responded that the 1998 statute is very clear that the                                                             
State and Park Service will cooperate in the development of a                                                                   
management plan, but the State will manage.  It's a critical                                                                    
distinction that has been lost at times in some of the Park Service                                                             
literature.  He suggested revisiting the existing MOU to develop a                                                              
framework for a cooperative management plan.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said they aren't following the plan now and we                                                                 
are.  He didn't know how agreeing to another plan would do anything                                                             
but make us compromise from our side. They didn't follow it in                                                                  
Glacier Bay or Katmai and probably in other places, as well.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said it's a problem we have with management plans with                                                             
any of the federal agencies.  A couple of things that might be                                                                  
different in this case is that we will be insisting on a public                                                                 
process that would accompany the whole effort.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how we would insist.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH responded that there is certainly a possibility that                                                               
we will come to an impasse with the Park Service on this issue                                                                  
somewhere.  There are numerous hurdles and requirement for us to                                                                
work more closely together and with the public than they have done                                                              
in the past.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if the State would be willing to join in                                                                 
support of the troller's lawsuit or any of the other lawsuits that                                                              
may come out of this.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH replied that they have been determined to never                                                                    
suggest that a lawsuit is out of the question.  This is one of the                                                              
options that needs to be on the table.  He said the Department of                                                               
Law would decide when the time comes for a lawsuit.  He has worked                                                              
closely with the Department of Law on this to make sure we haven't                                                              
foregone any of the preliminary steps that would be needed in order                                                             
to litigate this issue.  He feels that the State's interests and                                                                
authorities are fully defended up to this date in time and that                                                                 
will continue.  It is necessary to have the best case possible.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what happens next year in one of the related                                                             
waters where the Park Service seems to be trying to maintain some                                                               
kind of control over vessel closures.  What happens if they take an                                                             
action this spring that is directly contrary to the State's                                                                     
seasons, bag limits, and process.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered if they take an action that cannot be                                                                     
resolved, we are at the abyss.  There is nothing between us and the                                                             
last step except the details of deciding that there is legal action                                                             
that can be taken and that it's in the State's interest to do so.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he didn't want to hear the answer that we                                                                 
should surrender to avoid an attack, because that seems what has                                                                
happened to us in most State/federal issues.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 200                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked for details about the five crab fishermen who                                                              
were going to be deprived of their livelihood.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH informed him that the next opening was late June or                                                                
early July.  There will be no crab season in the Beardsly Islands                                                               
which is where the five crabbers have obtained at least half of                                                                 
their incomes over the last several years.  These five crabbers                                                                 
have met the criteria that was included in the legislation for                                                                  
compensation.  Those crabbers, by that time, will have forfeited                                                                
their permits so they would not be able to fish in other areas                                                                  
unless they buy another permit.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked to whom they would forfeit their permits.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH explained that he understands that they contract with                                                              
the federal government agreeing not to fish their permits.  The                                                                 
permits, then, become inactive and are retired from the fishery                                                                 
under the rules of the Limited Entry Commission.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked who would enforce that.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered he assumed it would be federal enforcement.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said he didn't want him to assume.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH responded that the MOU didn't cover that circumstance.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked the question again and then asked if the State                                                             
wouldn't arrest them.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered that the State has not closed the fishery.                                                                
It's been closed by an Act of Congress.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said it seemed to him if someone continued to fish                                                               
in the Beardsly Islands, saying he was fishing with a State permit,                                                             
would we go out and do the feds' dirty work and arrest him, too.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said it seemed to him that could happen.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR pointed out that he had seen us "roll over" on the                                                               
IFQ's, because that was a federal allocation within State waters.                                                               
He was concerned here because Mr. Bosworth was recommending they                                                                
have no additional hearings, so as to not delay the payment to the                                                              
five people who are going to be forced out of the fishery by the                                                                
federal government.  He asked, "Don't we set a precedent by                                                                     
allowing these people to be paid for their loss of right to fish.                                                               
Don't we forfeit our State's consent at that point?"                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said he didn't want to advise the Committee on what                                                                
action could be taken.  The legislature's letter simply asked for                                                               
an extension of the application period which he thought was                                                                     
consistent with the interests of the crab fishermen who would like                                                              
to be paid this summer.  Other approaches could be taken.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the Administration was going to wait for                                                                
the legislature to make that decision or a group of fishermen.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said they have been responsive to the crab fishermen                                                               
they have spoken to.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if an Alaskan signs this agreement with the                                                              
federal government and is paid for their permit, but still as far                                                               
as the State is concerned, they are not in violation of the law,                                                                
and they go and fish, will the State take any action or participate                                                             
in any action against them.  If not, that sets up the case for                                                                  
jurisdiction with a real person, a real injury, and a real way that                                                             
gets to court, maybe faster than something else.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said he understands what he saying, but he couldn't                                                                
respond to a hypothetical circumstance which are somewhat rampant                                                               
now.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. TINA CUNNING, ADF&G, clarified that the advice from the                                                                     
attorneys is never to encourage the private sector to go out and                                                                
violate a law, because they could end up in criminal court.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. CATHY SWIDERSKI, Assistant Attorney General, clarified that the                                                             
jurisdictional dispute between the State and the Park Service over                                                              
ownership of the submerged lands would not affect Congress's                                                                    
authority to require the phase out in the Beardsly Islands, because                                                             
that was done pursuant to Congress's Commerce Clause authority.                                                                 
That mandate is a legitimate one and one the State has to respect.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
If a fisherman were to enter into an agreement with the Park                                                                    
Service to relinquish their permit or not to fish it and not to                                                                 
seek reinstatement of it, it seems there would be a question that                                                               
at some point the permit would have expired and the person would be                                                             
fishing without a valid State permit.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 300                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE said he could understand why fishermen would want to                                                             
get compensated, but asked if essentially the federal government                                                                
was doing the buy out of State permits and closing a State fishery.                                                             
He asked about all the other folks who would be fishing that area                                                               
that would be denied with no compensation and what about some                                                                   
fishermen who would like to fish there in the future.  He asked if                                                              
the State would have to agree through a MOU or something like that.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH explained that it was an act of Congress that closed                                                               
the fisheries.  It is not the Park Service acting on its                                                                        
administrative authority.  This administration did not agree to                                                                 
anything; it just happened by an act of Congress.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE said he hoped the State wouldn't agree to it and                                                                 
added that he thought that would set the stage for a jurisdictional                                                             
battle immediately, should the State not agree to those terms. Last                                                             
week he, himself, suggested to the State that we are ready to                                                                   
litigate at a moment's notice.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH responded that he thought the State's jurisdiction and                                                             
authority had been fully defended and that we had not relinquished                                                              
any legal options.  The timing is not his call.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Ms. Swidinski if an act of Congress could                                                                
close Bristol Bay or Cook Inlet.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. SWIDINSKI answered that yes it could.  The commerce clause                                                                  
authority is very broad, she explained.  There are some limits, but                                                             
in general, if there is a connection to commerce, commerce has                                                                  
authority.  That is why she makes a distinction between that                                                                    
authority and the property clause authority which is the basis of                                                               
the jurisdictional dispute of who owns the submerged lands in                                                                   
Glacier Bay.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked her to explain that further in relation to the                                                             
Beardsly Islands.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. SWIDINSKI replied that legislation that affects Glacier Bay,                                                                
assuming that it is done pursuant to Congress's commerce clause                                                                 
authority which is quite broad, does not implicate our jurisdiction                                                             
dispute with the Park Service over ownership.  She didn't mean to                                                               
suggest that the Beardsly Islands were any different than any other                                                             
part of Glacier Bay.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked for clarification if they used the commerce                                                                
clause to close fishing in State waters.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. SWIDINSKI answered that was correct.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if there were any other examples of that in                                                                
the history of the United States - where people couldn't practice                                                               
a business in a given geographic area.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. SWIDINSKI answered the Endangered Species Act is one example                                                                
that has very wide-ranging impacts on private businesses on State                                                               
land.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN said he was fishing in Glacier Bay last                                                               
year and saw a Fish and Wildlife Protection boat, Enforcer,                                                                     
anchored in a cove, so he went over for a chat.  There were federal                                                             
and state protection officers together on patrol.  He said that was                                                             
common practice.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said studies were going on currently on                                                                        
sportfishing in Glacier Bay and asked if we were cooperating with                                                               
a data base on that the same way we cooperated on the one to do                                                                 
away with commercial fisheries; and if we do that, is subsistence                                                               
next?                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered that he wasn't aware of studies we were doing                                                             
to eliminate a sport fishery.  He knew there were some conservation                                                             
groups who did state for the record that their long term goal was                                                               
to eliminate all fisheries in Glacier Bay.  He has not heard that                                                               
from the Park Service.  He said he would check on it for the                                                                    
committee.  He said that subsistence is a little more complicated,                                                              
that Park Service says that ANILCA doesn't allow subsistence in                                                                 
Glacier Bay.  They also say that commercial fishing was illegal                                                                 
since 1966, but that is contradicted by the record.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said that we believe that subsistence fishing is                                                               
legal in Glacier Bay today.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH responded, "Absolutely."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said he would bet the first time a subsistence                                                                   
fisherman gets picked up out there or that anyone suggests buying                                                               
back permits, the Attorney General would then stand up with a real                                                              
stiff back bone right into court, but the commercial fishermen were                                                             
going to be bought out one at a time.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 445                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what we were going to do if they just go                                                                 
ahead with the current process without responding to us at all.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH replied that the Administration is looking at the 1998                                                             
law for implementation.  There are steps that Park Service has to                                                               
follow.  The main issue is determining eligibility criteria for                                                                 
fishermen to continue fishing in the Bay proper.  This is the law                                                               
and we are committed to following it.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD stopped him, asking if we are committed to                                                                     
following the law that is contrary to State management.  He didn't                                                              
think we should be quite so agreeable, saying there is a difference                                                             
between civil disobedience, acquiescence, cooperation and                                                                       
coenforcement.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH stated that we do not have the flexibility to ignore                                                               
an act of Congress.  There are a number of steps involved before                                                                
that, like language requiring us to develop a cooperative                                                                       
management plan.  The immediate issue before us is eligibility for                                                              
fishermen to receive access permits for their lifetimes.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said it seemed he was saying that we cannot                                                                      
disregard the federal law; that we will try to implement through an                                                             
agreement with the feds or an MOU.  He asked if part of the MOU was                                                             
that our ADF&G would be issuing regulations that say you cannot                                                                 
fish in Beardsly Islands.  He didn't know how else they could                                                                   
implement it without disregarding it.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said that was a good point, but they hadn't gotten to                                                              
that step, yet.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said if you're going to have a law in place by July                                                              
of this year, he thought someone should be working on a regulation                                                              
some place.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said no one was drawing up regulations at this point.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. SWIDERSKI responded also saying that the State regulations                                                                  
should mirror the elements of the federal law that we agree with                                                                
and that we intend to implement.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked who were going to be the arresting officers                                                                
that stepped on the boats.  His fear is that it will be Alaskan                                                                 
Fish and Game officers who will go on an Alaskan's boat and place                                                               
him under arrest for violating a state regulation.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR KELLY asked if the fishermen, aside from the five crabbers,                                                             
would be allowed access to the Bay within their lifetimes.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered that was right.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR KELLY asked if there were any provisions for a permit                                                                   
having to be used.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LEMAN said you had to pay a fee to keep it active, but you                                                              
didn't have to use it.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR KELLY asked if there was anything under our sustained yield                                                             
principal that says if they buy them up with no intention of using                                                              
them, that we could take action by reissuing some of the permits.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted that the State has control over transfer of                                                              
permits.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE said he thought they could be reissued according to                                                              
an incident in his district.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD commented on the final comments of the Working                                                                 
Group saying that they had continuously exposed their bottom line                                                               
and dealt with the State who continuously exposed all their cards                                                               
to the other side.  The Group felt by the time they were done, they                                                             
had been very substantially used to put a package together against                                                              
themselves and did not have any effective recourse against that                                                                 
package.  He hoped we could go forward with a state's rights                                                                    
strategy that is a maximum defense strategy.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH responded that the State made a conscious effort to                                                                
take a back seat position in the beginning rather than to advocate                                                              
for a process by which competing interests would arrive at a                                                                    
consensus position.  He said it was clearly understood by the Group                                                             
that the more groups that agreed on a point, the more likely it was                                                             
to get through Congress.  Until the last meeting not one person                                                                 
told him that the process was flawed.  He didn't have any idea                                                                  
what was meant by the State exposing the bottom line all the time.                                                              
All of them feel like they were blind-sided by the actions of                                                                   
Congress.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-5, SIDE B                                                                                                               
Number 590                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked when was the first time he had any idea                                                                  
Congress was going to act.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH replied that the first he heard of anything, apart                                                                 
from the Murkowski bill, was when he received a fax of the document                                                             
from a commercial fishermen representing a deal that had been cut.                                                              
There was a notation on the document that said "final" and was                                                                  
signed off by the Department of Interior.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what he did with it.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said he made phone calls to others in the Working                                                                  
Group to see if they had received the same information.  He                                                                     
probably made a call back to the Washington D.C. office to see if                                                               
they had received the same information.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how fast the rest of the Working Group got                                                               
the information.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said he thought it was hours to a day.  The "final"                                                                
indicated that some people thought in D.C. that there was to be no                                                              
more negotiation.  He clarified that his communication to                                                                       
Washington D.C. was through John Katz.  He never contacted the                                                                  
offices of our congressional delegation.  He often communicated                                                                 
with Molly Ross in the Department of Interior, but not about this                                                               
issue.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Once the Department of Interior understood the document was                                                                     
released, the feds knew that we knew.  It went to Senator Stevens'                                                              
office, to the fax of a crab fisherman.  He received a call from                                                                
Molly Ross three days later asking if he had seen it.  She                                                                      
described something of the circumstances of the negotiation.                                                                    
Subsequently, he heard more about the whole process.  John Katz was                                                             
in contact with Senator Stevens' office as were fishermen.  At that                                                             
point some changes were made.  The changes had to do with greater                                                               
clarity on the fisheries that would remain open and that Congress                                                               
would affirm the outer waters' fisheries.  There was a clause put                                                               
in that specifically assured that the State's interests and                                                                     
jurisdiction was protected.  He heard about these through his                                                                   
Washington office.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if there was ever a time the Working Group                                                               
could have gotten together and taken a position on the Stevens                                                                  
amendments.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said it happened very fast.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated that their bottom line was no closure and                                                               
this was obviously well below their bottom line.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said he received phone calls from people who said the                                                              
material from the Working Group had been used by some party in the                                                              
process of developing that legislation.  The predominate feeling he                                                             
got from fishermen was that they didn't want to have anything else                                                              
to do with the Working Group, because it was unnecessary and had                                                                
ultimately worked against them.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what was the interaction between Congressman                                                             
Young's office, Senator Murkowski's office, and Senator Stevens                                                                 
office.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said all he knows is rumor and innuendo.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what happened to the money that was                                                                      
appropriated for these efforts last year.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered that most of it was still there.  Half of it                                                              
is for Department of Law should they choose to use it in litigation                                                             
defense of Glacier Bay.  Of the remaining $42,000, they spent some                                                              
money on the brochure and travel.  However, the fiscal year is not                                                              
over if there is need for that funding.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked why the Working Group was disbanded in the                                                               
middle of a proposal.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered that was his first inclination regardless of                                                              
acts of Congress.  Other issues need to be resolved.  The Work                                                                  
Group disbanded, because the commercial fishermen asked that it be                                                              
disbanded.  There was a profoundly discouraged group of people who                                                              
felt the process worked against their interests.  The process was                                                               
truncated like a cleaver falling.  The Working Group was an effort                                                              
at consensus building.  People felt that was behind them.  He                                                                   
observed that nothing precludes other groups from being put                                                                     
together.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what he thought would have happened if the                                                               
Governor would have said, "Stop."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 490                                                                                                                      
MR. BOSWORTH responded that no one knew the cleaver was dropping.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR recounted how, about 40 years ago, fishermen in                                                                  
Bristol Bay woke up one morning and found that the Japanese gillnet                                                             
fleet had moved into Bristol Bay to an area just outside of the                                                                 
three-mile limit.  Our fishermen were very upset and shots were                                                                 
fired.  This brought the controversy to attention of the                                                                        
international media.  Bill Egan was governor at the time and the                                                                
press asked him what he was going to do about the Japanese moving                                                               
in on the Bristol Bay fishery.  His response was that he was going                                                              
to arm every fishing boat in Alaska the next morning.  The Japanese                                                             
fleet left the next morning and never showed up again.  That's the                                                              
difference between leadership and consensus building.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said that all the people working through the back                                                                
room got what they wanted and the naive people who thought this was                                                             
some sort of constructive process got screwed.  They've really                                                                  
learned what it means to get worked over in one of these meetings.                                                              
Senator Taylor had been in meetings for the last 20 years with                                                                  
these people and he considers it very naive for anyone to think                                                                 
we're going to walk in a room and develop a consensus with the                                                                  
Sierra Club.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said he guaranteed that this administration knew                                                                 
well in advance what was going on and he bet there wouldn't be a                                                                
single memo in Mr. Bosworth's file, if he used a freedom of                                                                     
information request, where John Katz, this Governor, the                                                                        
Commissioner of Fish and Game or anyone else in authority said not                                                              
only "No," but "Hell, no.  We're going to defend the rights of                                                                  
Alaskans.  We're going to stand up for fishermen and for                                                                        
generations yet to come, I'm going to stand up for our resources."                                                              
He said that Mr. Bosworth didn't even contact the congressional                                                                 
delegation, but just worked through Mr. Katz and the third floor                                                                
and that's why the Committee is sitting here today trying to figure                                                             
out the price for Alaskans to be bought out of a fishery by the                                                                 
federal government, and he is probably going to go along with it.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 451                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought that was a bit uncalled for and                                                                
asked for a chance for Mr. Bosworth to respond.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH objected to the characterization of himself or the                                                                 
administration in any way subverting the State's interests in this                                                              
process.  This issue has been around a long time.  This is not the                                                              
first consensus process that tried to solve it; it started in 1991                                                              
and continued through three administrations.  The legal issues are                                                              
sufficiently complex with sufficient risk to all of the things                                                                  
Alaskans care about that none of those governors or attorney                                                                    
generals saw fit to file the lawsuit Senator Taylor asks for.  He                                                               
said people working together is a technique that often works well.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR said he understands Mr. Bosworth's objections, but                                                               
asked again if he had any document showing that any member of this                                                              
administration told our congressional delegation not to do it.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if he included leadership in that question.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH answered that they didn't know about the 1998 act                                                                  
until it was a done deal.  There may be correspondence, but he                                                                  
didn't have any copies.  He said that he does work through the                                                                  
congressional office on many things.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR KELLY said he thought Mr. Bosworth was an advocate for the                                                              
process when he should have advocated for the people of the State                                                               
of Alaska.  He thought it was equally important to advocate for                                                                 
someone who wanted to go up into Glacier Bay in a kayak and not see                                                             
a fishing boat as for someone who has to feed their family.                                                                     
Whether it was a mistake or intentional, he thought that was where                                                              
the interests of the State were sold out.  He said this kind of                                                                 
stuff should stop, because we are being taken over by this                                                                      
consensus process.  We give up our rights before we stand up and                                                                
fight.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH said the consensus process is fluid and sometimes                                                                  
fascinating.  Their position was that it would be possible for                                                                  
commercial fishing and other uses to be compatible in Glacier Bay                                                               
and the function of the group was to describe the ways that                                                                     
compatibility could be found to everyone's satisfaction.  He                                                                    
doubted that they would have come to a complete harmonious result.                                                              
It was never the intent to sacrifice fishing in Glacier Bay.  He                                                                
fully expected to go to Washington D.C. to negotiate the final                                                                  
result of the legislation.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD remarked that the sad thing from an                                                                            
environmentalist point of view is that the tonnage in Glacier Bay                                                               
would go up, because it's O.K. to put ocean liners in there when                                                                
it's not O.K. to put crabbers and commercial fishermen there - and                                                              
maybe subsistence and sport fishermen later.  It's an allocation                                                                
battle between national interests and resources and what they can                                                               
take away from the State of Alaska.  There's nothing pure about                                                                 
their outcome.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE asked if the letter of February 1 went out on a                                                                  
State of Alaska letterhead.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH replied that it did; it came across E-mail without it.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE asked if the Governor or Commissioner had ever sent                                                              
a letter in support of fishing in Glacier Bay.  He said he hadn't                                                               
seen the effort on the part of the State to defend these rights.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOSWORTH responded that he would be happy to supply copies of                                                               
such letters; one as recently as December to Secretary Babbit.                                                                  
Providing comments on regulations like this is considered more of                                                               
a formality and is typically sent by the Division of Governmental                                                               
Coordination.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 322                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Ms. Deb Woodruff where she thought we should                                                             
go from here.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. DEB WOODRUFF said she didn't recommend going back to the                                                                    
stakeholder process as it was structured before.  She felt she had                                                              
participated in this process initially naively.  Eventually she saw                                                             
a lack of strategy on the part of the State.  She wrote repeated                                                                
letters to the Governor and Lieutenant Governor and had many                                                                    
conversations with Rob Bosworth, Senator Mackie, and Representative                                                             
Kookesh.  She saw the time running out and some solid compromise                                                                
positions offered by the fishery group, but she felt the State was                                                              
not really in there to win.  There was no saber-rattling over                                                                   
state's rights.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
She saw the Beardsly Islands and the dungeness crab fishery as a                                                                
key resource.  It is next to Bartlett Cove, so you hear the                                                                     
catamaran fire up, road work, generators, jets turning around, and                                                              
float planes.  She spoke with Park Superintendent, Bob Howe, who                                                                
said it didn't really meet the criteria for wilderness, but that it                                                             
was a very favorite area for the park naturalists to take off on                                                                
their lunch break.  These were the only people she ever heard                                                                   
anything negative from.  Ken Leghorn, Alaska Discovery, said at a                                                               
meeting that this was a non-issue, for in 27 years of wilderness                                                                
guided trips they had not had any complaints. The crabbers had                                                                  
initiate good sense things like deciding not to lay gear tour                                                                   
catamaran traffic lanes.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. WOODRUFF stated the Mr. Bosworth was a good friend and believed                                                             
in talking things through, but she thought a point came when they                                                               
lost the vision for what they were trying to accomplish.  As                                                                    
Beardsly Island dungeness crab fishermen they can't just go                                                                     
somewhere else and make the same living and the other fishermen                                                                 
don't want them invading their grounds.  In this process she hated                                                              
how she felt abused to have sat there and spilled her guts.  They                                                               
have lost the Beardsly Island to wilderness and now after 20 years                                                              
they have to figure out what to do that would be fair.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. WOODRUFF stated that Molly Ross missed meetings and never came                                                              
to the table with any numbers while the clock was running.  The                                                                 
crabbers had agreed to not out-migrate and of their compensation                                                                
$100,000 was for the value of the permit, but 40 percent goes back                                                              
to Uncle Sam.  There is not one business that she could think about                                                             
buying in Gustavus with what's left.  She is going to school on                                                                 
Thursday to try to learn something else to do.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. WOODRUFF said that Rob got an A plus marks for his humanity and                                                             
who he is as an individual, but saw times when the State was                                                                    
sitting at the helm when there wasn't a moderator/mediator and they                                                             
got totally hammered in the courts.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how many days from the time she heard of the                                                             
deal in D.C. until there was final action.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. WOODRUFF answered one or two days.  She said that Molly Ross                                                                
left out good faith promises to other fishermen.  They were                                                                     
maneuvered into a position between a rock and a hard spot having to                                                             
not only give up their permit because they were technically fishing                                                             
illegally in wilderness waters, but they now have to give up non                                                                
wilderness fishing rights within the Park.  That was never put on                                                               
the table by the fishermen; it was asked for by outside groups.                                                                 
She hoped they would read their copies of the interagency meeting                                                               
notes, because it would "burn their eyes."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he believed the Park Service intended to pull                                                             
on the threads they hold until there is no fabric left of                                                                       
statehood.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. WOODRUFF said the Park Service worked out a deal with the                                                                   
upcoming concession permit to have them agree not to engage in any                                                              
sportfishing, because it was an extractive commercial behavior.                                                                 
That's the signal they are sending out.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE asked who actually was at the table when the bill                                                                
was drafted and what happened to the several years of work.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. WOODRUFF said she is still searching for the answers to those                                                               
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-06                                                                                                                      
SIDE A                                                                                                                          
Number 001                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR stated in the legislation that came down, we lost                                                                
all those areas we'd compromised on, until there wasn't anything                                                                
left to compromise.  His experience had been exactly the same - 25                                                              
years of betrayal. He said, "We should be allocating this resource                                                              
of Alaskans, looking at Glacier Bay and saying, is there room for                                                               
the kayaker, the longliner, the occasional foreign flag vessel?                                                                 
Unfortunately, we're not going to be given that opportunity; and I                                                              
applaud you for your efforts."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked everyone involved in the issue for                                                                     
bringing the committee up to date information.                                                                                  
           SB 12-FOREST PRACTICES: STREAMS/TRIBUTARIES                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced SB 12 to be up for consideration.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JEFF JAHNKE, Director of the Division of Forestry and Presiding                                                                 
Officer for the Board of Forestry, stated that this is a good bill                                                              
resulting from a two-year effort to resolve some issues with the                                                                
Forest Practices Act in Region I.  It had broad support from all                                                                
segments of Alaskan society, including the Board of Forestry and                                                                
the three agencies, and was based on the best available science and                                                             
had public involvement in all its aspects. It provides additional                                                               
protection to the key water bodies in Alaska, is workable for the                                                               
timber industry, and has broad support.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 113                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
JACK PHELPS, Executive Director of the Alaska Forest Association,                                                               
noted his written statement saying the committee has seen the bill                                                              
before and knows why it's good policy.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if it said "area" or "difference?"                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. PHELPS replied, from an operational standpoint, we need it to                                                               
say "area," although the technical language problem was duly noted.                                                             
His second comment was that the forest industry agreed last year                                                                
after the Legislature failed to pass this legislation, to implement                                                             
the provisions of this law beginning with the current operating                                                                 
season.  No matter how quickly you act, given the 90-day effective                                                              
date issue, there is no way this would become law until the current                                                             
operating season is well in hand.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 148                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass SB 12 from committee with individual                                                               
recommendations.  There were no objections and it was so ordered.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 154                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 5:00 p.m.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects