Legislature(1999 - 2000)
02/01/1999 03:18 PM RES
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE February 1, 1999 3:18 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Rick Halford, Chairman Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman Senator Pete Kelly Senator Jerry Mackie Senator Lyda Green Senator Sean Parnell Senator Georgianna Lincoln MEMBERS ABSENT All Members Present OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Loren Leman Representative Scott Ogan, Co-chair, House Resources Committee COMMITTEE CALENDAR Briefing on Glacier Bay National Park and Federal Rules SENATE BILL NO. 7 "An Act relating to the University of Alaska and university land, and authorizing the University of Alaska to select additional state land." -SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD SENATE BILL NO. 12 "An Act classifying anadromous streams and tributaries; relating to the designation of riparian areas; establishing buffers on certain streams and relating to slope stability standards on certain streams; and requiring retention of low value timber along certain water bodies where prudent." -MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION SB 7 - See Resources Committee minutes dated 1/25/99. SB 12 - No previous action to consider. WITNESS REGISTER Mr. Rob Bosworth, Deputy Commissioner Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, AK 99802-5526 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules issue. Ms. Tina Cunning, ANILCA Program Coordinator Alaska Department of Fish and Game 333 Raspberry Rd. Anchorage, AK 99518-1599 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules issue. Ms. Deb Woodruff Gustavus, AK 99730 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules issue. Ms. Cathy Swiderski, Assistant Attorney General Department of Law 1031 W 4th Ave, Suite 200 Anchorage, AK 99501-1994 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Glacier Bay and Federal Rules issue. Mr. Jeff Jahnke, Director Division of Forestry Department of Natural Resources 400 Willoughby, 3rd Floor Juneau, AK 99801-1724 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 12. Mr. Jack Phelps, Executive Director Alaska Forest Association 111 Stedman, #200 Ketchikan, AK 99901 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 12. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 99-5, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 3:18 p.m. and announced the committee would take further testimony regarding Glacier Bay National Park and Federal Rules. MR. ROB BOSWORTH, Deputy Commissioner, referring to the State's 50 page statement, said that he thought there was a direct parallel with the Resources Committee comments. He thought the Committee might get some calls on the dungeness crab compensation. The Committee requested an extension on the application period. The State is asking for another federal register notice to clarify the regulations or the process for compensation. The issue is that five dungeness crab fishermen are being put out of work starting this coming season, so it would not be appropriate to delay the compensation program. However, a delay in the application period would probably not involve a delay in the compensation program. So he supported the Senate's remarks. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if the deadline was set in the statute. MR. BOSWORTH replied that it was set in statute. CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted that we need some help from our congressional delegation in that process. MR. BOSWORTH agreed and added that that was the only significant issue he could find that was different between the two sets of comments. CHAIRMAN HALFORD commented that he didn't know how we could trust the Park Service to provide some kind of cooperative management with us in the future. He understands that there is already a memorandum of understanding (MOU) between ADF&G and the Park Service and asked how they follow it and if it has been applied successfully. MR. BOSWORTH responded that the 1998 statute is very clear that the State and Park Service will cooperate in the development of a management plan, but the State will manage. It's a critical distinction that has been lost at times in some of the Park Service literature. He suggested revisiting the existing MOU to develop a framework for a cooperative management plan. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said they aren't following the plan now and we are. He didn't know how agreeing to another plan would do anything but make us compromise from our side. They didn't follow it in Glacier Bay or Katmai and probably in other places, as well. MR. BOSWORTH said it's a problem we have with management plans with any of the federal agencies. A couple of things that might be different in this case is that we will be insisting on a public process that would accompany the whole effort. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how we would insist. MR. BOSWORTH responded that there is certainly a possibility that we will come to an impasse with the Park Service on this issue somewhere. There are numerous hurdles and requirement for us to work more closely together and with the public than they have done in the past. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if the State would be willing to join in support of the troller's lawsuit or any of the other lawsuits that may come out of this. MR. BOSWORTH replied that they have been determined to never suggest that a lawsuit is out of the question. This is one of the options that needs to be on the table. He said the Department of Law would decide when the time comes for a lawsuit. He has worked closely with the Department of Law on this to make sure we haven't foregone any of the preliminary steps that would be needed in order to litigate this issue. He feels that the State's interests and authorities are fully defended up to this date in time and that will continue. It is necessary to have the best case possible. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what happens next year in one of the related waters where the Park Service seems to be trying to maintain some kind of control over vessel closures. What happens if they take an action this spring that is directly contrary to the State's seasons, bag limits, and process. MR. BOSWORTH answered if they take an action that cannot be resolved, we are at the abyss. There is nothing between us and the last step except the details of deciding that there is legal action that can be taken and that it's in the State's interest to do so. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he didn't want to hear the answer that we should surrender to avoid an attack, because that seems what has happened to us in most State/federal issues. Number 200 SENATOR TAYLOR asked for details about the five crab fishermen who were going to be deprived of their livelihood. MR. BOSWORTH informed him that the next opening was late June or early July. There will be no crab season in the Beardsly Islands which is where the five crabbers have obtained at least half of their incomes over the last several years. These five crabbers have met the criteria that was included in the legislation for compensation. Those crabbers, by that time, will have forfeited their permits so they would not be able to fish in other areas unless they buy another permit. SENATOR TAYLOR asked to whom they would forfeit their permits. MR. BOSWORTH explained that he understands that they contract with the federal government agreeing not to fish their permits. The permits, then, become inactive and are retired from the fishery under the rules of the Limited Entry Commission. SENATOR TAYLOR asked who would enforce that. MR. BOSWORTH answered he assumed it would be federal enforcement. SENATOR TAYLOR said he didn't want him to assume. MR. BOSWORTH responded that the MOU didn't cover that circumstance. SENATOR TAYLOR asked the question again and then asked if the State wouldn't arrest them. MR. BOSWORTH answered that the State has not closed the fishery. It's been closed by an Act of Congress. SENATOR TAYLOR said it seemed to him if someone continued to fish in the Beardsly Islands, saying he was fishing with a State permit, would we go out and do the feds' dirty work and arrest him, too. MR. BOSWORTH said it seemed to him that could happen. SENATOR TAYLOR pointed out that he had seen us "roll over" on the IFQ's, because that was a federal allocation within State waters. He was concerned here because Mr. Bosworth was recommending they have no additional hearings, so as to not delay the payment to the five people who are going to be forced out of the fishery by the federal government. He asked, "Don't we set a precedent by allowing these people to be paid for their loss of right to fish. Don't we forfeit our State's consent at that point?" MR. BOSWORTH said he didn't want to advise the Committee on what action could be taken. The legislature's letter simply asked for an extension of the application period which he thought was consistent with the interests of the crab fishermen who would like to be paid this summer. Other approaches could be taken. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the Administration was going to wait for the legislature to make that decision or a group of fishermen. MR. BOSWORTH said they have been responsive to the crab fishermen they have spoken to. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if an Alaskan signs this agreement with the federal government and is paid for their permit, but still as far as the State is concerned, they are not in violation of the law, and they go and fish, will the State take any action or participate in any action against them. If not, that sets up the case for jurisdiction with a real person, a real injury, and a real way that gets to court, maybe faster than something else. MR. BOSWORTH said he understands what he saying, but he couldn't respond to a hypothetical circumstance which are somewhat rampant now. MS. TINA CUNNING, ADF&G, clarified that the advice from the attorneys is never to encourage the private sector to go out and violate a law, because they could end up in criminal court. MS. CATHY SWIDERSKI, Assistant Attorney General, clarified that the jurisdictional dispute between the State and the Park Service over ownership of the submerged lands would not affect Congress's authority to require the phase out in the Beardsly Islands, because that was done pursuant to Congress's Commerce Clause authority. That mandate is a legitimate one and one the State has to respect. If a fisherman were to enter into an agreement with the Park Service to relinquish their permit or not to fish it and not to seek reinstatement of it, it seems there would be a question that at some point the permit would have expired and the person would be fishing without a valid State permit. Number 300 SENATOR MACKIE said he could understand why fishermen would want to get compensated, but asked if essentially the federal government was doing the buy out of State permits and closing a State fishery. He asked about all the other folks who would be fishing that area that would be denied with no compensation and what about some fishermen who would like to fish there in the future. He asked if the State would have to agree through a MOU or something like that. MR. BOSWORTH explained that it was an act of Congress that closed the fisheries. It is not the Park Service acting on its administrative authority. This administration did not agree to anything; it just happened by an act of Congress. SENATOR MACKIE said he hoped the State wouldn't agree to it and added that he thought that would set the stage for a jurisdictional battle immediately, should the State not agree to those terms. Last week he, himself, suggested to the State that we are ready to litigate at a moment's notice. MR. BOSWORTH responded that he thought the State's jurisdiction and authority had been fully defended and that we had not relinquished any legal options. The timing is not his call. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Ms. Swidinski if an act of Congress could close Bristol Bay or Cook Inlet. MS. SWIDINSKI answered that yes it could. The commerce clause authority is very broad, she explained. There are some limits, but in general, if there is a connection to commerce, commerce has authority. That is why she makes a distinction between that authority and the property clause authority which is the basis of the jurisdictional dispute of who owns the submerged lands in Glacier Bay. SENATOR TAYLOR asked her to explain that further in relation to the Beardsly Islands. MS. SWIDINSKI replied that legislation that affects Glacier Bay, assuming that it is done pursuant to Congress's commerce clause authority which is quite broad, does not implicate our jurisdiction dispute with the Park Service over ownership. She didn't mean to suggest that the Beardsly Islands were any different than any other part of Glacier Bay. SENATOR TAYLOR asked for clarification if they used the commerce clause to close fishing in State waters. MS. SWIDINSKI answered that was correct. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if there were any other examples of that in the history of the United States - where people couldn't practice a business in a given geographic area. MS. SWIDINSKI answered the Endangered Species Act is one example that has very wide-ranging impacts on private businesses on State land. REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN said he was fishing in Glacier Bay last year and saw a Fish and Wildlife Protection boat, Enforcer, anchored in a cove, so he went over for a chat. There were federal and state protection officers together on patrol. He said that was common practice. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said studies were going on currently on sportfishing in Glacier Bay and asked if we were cooperating with a data base on that the same way we cooperated on the one to do away with commercial fisheries; and if we do that, is subsistence next? MR. BOSWORTH answered that he wasn't aware of studies we were doing to eliminate a sport fishery. He knew there were some conservation groups who did state for the record that their long term goal was to eliminate all fisheries in Glacier Bay. He has not heard that from the Park Service. He said he would check on it for the committee. He said that subsistence is a little more complicated, that Park Service says that ANILCA doesn't allow subsistence in Glacier Bay. They also say that commercial fishing was illegal since 1966, but that is contradicted by the record. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said that we believe that subsistence fishing is legal in Glacier Bay today. MR. BOSWORTH responded, "Absolutely." SENATOR TAYLOR said he would bet the first time a subsistence fisherman gets picked up out there or that anyone suggests buying back permits, the Attorney General would then stand up with a real stiff back bone right into court, but the commercial fishermen were going to be bought out one at a time. Number 445 CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what we were going to do if they just go ahead with the current process without responding to us at all. MR. BOSWORTH replied that the Administration is looking at the 1998 law for implementation. There are steps that Park Service has to follow. The main issue is determining eligibility criteria for fishermen to continue fishing in the Bay proper. This is the law and we are committed to following it. CHAIRMAN HALFORD stopped him, asking if we are committed to following the law that is contrary to State management. He didn't think we should be quite so agreeable, saying there is a difference between civil disobedience, acquiescence, cooperation and coenforcement. MR. BOSWORTH stated that we do not have the flexibility to ignore an act of Congress. There are a number of steps involved before that, like language requiring us to develop a cooperative management plan. The immediate issue before us is eligibility for fishermen to receive access permits for their lifetimes. SENATOR TAYLOR said it seemed he was saying that we cannot disregard the federal law; that we will try to implement through an agreement with the feds or an MOU. He asked if part of the MOU was that our ADF&G would be issuing regulations that say you cannot fish in Beardsly Islands. He didn't know how else they could implement it without disregarding it. MR. BOSWORTH said that was a good point, but they hadn't gotten to that step, yet. SENATOR TAYLOR said if you're going to have a law in place by July of this year, he thought someone should be working on a regulation some place. MR. BOSWORTH said no one was drawing up regulations at this point. MS. SWIDERSKI responded also saying that the State regulations should mirror the elements of the federal law that we agree with and that we intend to implement. SENATOR TAYLOR asked who were going to be the arresting officers that stepped on the boats. His fear is that it will be Alaskan Fish and Game officers who will go on an Alaskan's boat and place him under arrest for violating a state regulation. SENATOR KELLY asked if the fishermen, aside from the five crabbers, would be allowed access to the Bay within their lifetimes. MR. BOSWORTH answered that was right. SENATOR KELLY asked if there were any provisions for a permit having to be used. SENATOR LEMAN said you had to pay a fee to keep it active, but you didn't have to use it. SENATOR KELLY asked if there was anything under our sustained yield principal that says if they buy them up with no intention of using them, that we could take action by reissuing some of the permits. CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted that the State has control over transfer of permits. SENATOR MACKIE said he thought they could be reissued according to an incident in his district. CHAIRMAN HALFORD commented on the final comments of the Working Group saying that they had continuously exposed their bottom line and dealt with the State who continuously exposed all their cards to the other side. The Group felt by the time they were done, they had been very substantially used to put a package together against themselves and did not have any effective recourse against that package. He hoped we could go forward with a state's rights strategy that is a maximum defense strategy. MR. BOSWORTH responded that the State made a conscious effort to take a back seat position in the beginning rather than to advocate for a process by which competing interests would arrive at a consensus position. He said it was clearly understood by the Group that the more groups that agreed on a point, the more likely it was to get through Congress. Until the last meeting not one person told him that the process was flawed. He didn't have any idea what was meant by the State exposing the bottom line all the time. All of them feel like they were blind-sided by the actions of Congress. TAPE 99-5, SIDE B Number 590 CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked when was the first time he had any idea Congress was going to act. MR. BOSWORTH replied that the first he heard of anything, apart from the Murkowski bill, was when he received a fax of the document from a commercial fishermen representing a deal that had been cut. There was a notation on the document that said "final" and was signed off by the Department of Interior. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what he did with it. MR. BOSWORTH said he made phone calls to others in the Working Group to see if they had received the same information. He probably made a call back to the Washington D.C. office to see if they had received the same information. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how fast the rest of the Working Group got the information. MR. BOSWORTH said he thought it was hours to a day. The "final" indicated that some people thought in D.C. that there was to be no more negotiation. He clarified that his communication to Washington D.C. was through John Katz. He never contacted the offices of our congressional delegation. He often communicated with Molly Ross in the Department of Interior, but not about this issue. Once the Department of Interior understood the document was released, the feds knew that we knew. It went to Senator Stevens' office, to the fax of a crab fisherman. He received a call from Molly Ross three days later asking if he had seen it. She described something of the circumstances of the negotiation. Subsequently, he heard more about the whole process. John Katz was in contact with Senator Stevens' office as were fishermen. At that point some changes were made. The changes had to do with greater clarity on the fisheries that would remain open and that Congress would affirm the outer waters' fisheries. There was a clause put in that specifically assured that the State's interests and jurisdiction was protected. He heard about these through his Washington office. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if there was ever a time the Working Group could have gotten together and taken a position on the Stevens amendments. MR. BOSWORTH said it happened very fast. CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated that their bottom line was no closure and this was obviously well below their bottom line. MR. BOSWORTH said he received phone calls from people who said the material from the Working Group had been used by some party in the process of developing that legislation. The predominate feeling he got from fishermen was that they didn't want to have anything else to do with the Working Group, because it was unnecessary and had ultimately worked against them. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what was the interaction between Congressman Young's office, Senator Murkowski's office, and Senator Stevens office. MR. BOSWORTH said all he knows is rumor and innuendo. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what happened to the money that was appropriated for these efforts last year. MR. BOSWORTH answered that most of it was still there. Half of it is for Department of Law should they choose to use it in litigation defense of Glacier Bay. Of the remaining $42,000, they spent some money on the brochure and travel. However, the fiscal year is not over if there is need for that funding. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked why the Working Group was disbanded in the middle of a proposal. MR. BOSWORTH answered that was his first inclination regardless of acts of Congress. Other issues need to be resolved. The Work Group disbanded, because the commercial fishermen asked that it be disbanded. There was a profoundly discouraged group of people who felt the process worked against their interests. The process was truncated like a cleaver falling. The Working Group was an effort at consensus building. People felt that was behind them. He observed that nothing precludes other groups from being put together. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what he thought would have happened if the Governor would have said, "Stop." Number 490 MR. BOSWORTH responded that no one knew the cleaver was dropping. SENATOR TAYLOR recounted how, about 40 years ago, fishermen in Bristol Bay woke up one morning and found that the Japanese gillnet fleet had moved into Bristol Bay to an area just outside of the three-mile limit. Our fishermen were very upset and shots were fired. This brought the controversy to attention of the international media. Bill Egan was governor at the time and the press asked him what he was going to do about the Japanese moving in on the Bristol Bay fishery. His response was that he was going to arm every fishing boat in Alaska the next morning. The Japanese fleet left the next morning and never showed up again. That's the difference between leadership and consensus building. SENATOR TAYLOR said that all the people working through the back room got what they wanted and the naive people who thought this was some sort of constructive process got screwed. They've really learned what it means to get worked over in one of these meetings. Senator Taylor had been in meetings for the last 20 years with these people and he considers it very naive for anyone to think we're going to walk in a room and develop a consensus with the Sierra Club. SENATOR TAYLOR said he guaranteed that this administration knew well in advance what was going on and he bet there wouldn't be a single memo in Mr. Bosworth's file, if he used a freedom of information request, where John Katz, this Governor, the Commissioner of Fish and Game or anyone else in authority said not only "No," but "Hell, no. We're going to defend the rights of Alaskans. We're going to stand up for fishermen and for generations yet to come, I'm going to stand up for our resources." He said that Mr. Bosworth didn't even contact the congressional delegation, but just worked through Mr. Katz and the third floor and that's why the Committee is sitting here today trying to figure out the price for Alaskans to be bought out of a fishery by the federal government, and he is probably going to go along with it. Number 451 SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought that was a bit uncalled for and asked for a chance for Mr. Bosworth to respond. MR. BOSWORTH objected to the characterization of himself or the administration in any way subverting the State's interests in this process. This issue has been around a long time. This is not the first consensus process that tried to solve it; it started in 1991 and continued through three administrations. The legal issues are sufficiently complex with sufficient risk to all of the things Alaskans care about that none of those governors or attorney generals saw fit to file the lawsuit Senator Taylor asks for. He said people working together is a technique that often works well. SENATOR TAYLOR said he understands Mr. Bosworth's objections, but asked again if he had any document showing that any member of this administration told our congressional delegation not to do it. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if he included leadership in that question. MR. BOSWORTH answered that they didn't know about the 1998 act until it was a done deal. There may be correspondence, but he didn't have any copies. He said that he does work through the congressional office on many things. SENATOR KELLY said he thought Mr. Bosworth was an advocate for the process when he should have advocated for the people of the State of Alaska. He thought it was equally important to advocate for someone who wanted to go up into Glacier Bay in a kayak and not see a fishing boat as for someone who has to feed their family. Whether it was a mistake or intentional, he thought that was where the interests of the State were sold out. He said this kind of stuff should stop, because we are being taken over by this consensus process. We give up our rights before we stand up and fight. MR. BOSWORTH said the consensus process is fluid and sometimes fascinating. Their position was that it would be possible for commercial fishing and other uses to be compatible in Glacier Bay and the function of the group was to describe the ways that compatibility could be found to everyone's satisfaction. He doubted that they would have come to a complete harmonious result. It was never the intent to sacrifice fishing in Glacier Bay. He fully expected to go to Washington D.C. to negotiate the final result of the legislation. CHAIRMAN HALFORD remarked that the sad thing from an environmentalist point of view is that the tonnage in Glacier Bay would go up, because it's O.K. to put ocean liners in there when it's not O.K. to put crabbers and commercial fishermen there - and maybe subsistence and sport fishermen later. It's an allocation battle between national interests and resources and what they can take away from the State of Alaska. There's nothing pure about their outcome. SENATOR MACKIE asked if the letter of February 1 went out on a State of Alaska letterhead. MR. BOSWORTH replied that it did; it came across E-mail without it. SENATOR MACKIE asked if the Governor or Commissioner had ever sent a letter in support of fishing in Glacier Bay. He said he hadn't seen the effort on the part of the State to defend these rights. MR. BOSWORTH responded that he would be happy to supply copies of such letters; one as recently as December to Secretary Babbit. Providing comments on regulations like this is considered more of a formality and is typically sent by the Division of Governmental Coordination. Number 322 CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Ms. Deb Woodruff where she thought we should go from here. MS. DEB WOODRUFF said she didn't recommend going back to the stakeholder process as it was structured before. She felt she had participated in this process initially naively. Eventually she saw a lack of strategy on the part of the State. She wrote repeated letters to the Governor and Lieutenant Governor and had many conversations with Rob Bosworth, Senator Mackie, and Representative Kookesh. She saw the time running out and some solid compromise positions offered by the fishery group, but she felt the State was not really in there to win. There was no saber-rattling over state's rights. She saw the Beardsly Islands and the dungeness crab fishery as a key resource. It is next to Bartlett Cove, so you hear the catamaran fire up, road work, generators, jets turning around, and float planes. She spoke with Park Superintendent, Bob Howe, who said it didn't really meet the criteria for wilderness, but that it was a very favorite area for the park naturalists to take off on their lunch break. These were the only people she ever heard anything negative from. Ken Leghorn, Alaska Discovery, said at a meeting that this was a non-issue, for in 27 years of wilderness guided trips they had not had any complaints. The crabbers had initiate good sense things like deciding not to lay gear tour catamaran traffic lanes. MS. WOODRUFF stated the Mr. Bosworth was a good friend and believed in talking things through, but she thought a point came when they lost the vision for what they were trying to accomplish. As Beardsly Island dungeness crab fishermen they can't just go somewhere else and make the same living and the other fishermen don't want them invading their grounds. In this process she hated how she felt abused to have sat there and spilled her guts. They have lost the Beardsly Island to wilderness and now after 20 years they have to figure out what to do that would be fair. MS. WOODRUFF stated that Molly Ross missed meetings and never came to the table with any numbers while the clock was running. The crabbers had agreed to not out-migrate and of their compensation $100,000 was for the value of the permit, but 40 percent goes back to Uncle Sam. There is not one business that she could think about buying in Gustavus with what's left. She is going to school on Thursday to try to learn something else to do. MS. WOODRUFF said that Rob got an A plus marks for his humanity and who he is as an individual, but saw times when the State was sitting at the helm when there wasn't a moderator/mediator and they got totally hammered in the courts. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how many days from the time she heard of the deal in D.C. until there was final action. MS. WOODRUFF answered one or two days. She said that Molly Ross left out good faith promises to other fishermen. They were maneuvered into a position between a rock and a hard spot having to not only give up their permit because they were technically fishing illegally in wilderness waters, but they now have to give up non wilderness fishing rights within the Park. That was never put on the table by the fishermen; it was asked for by outside groups. She hoped they would read their copies of the interagency meeting notes, because it would "burn their eyes." CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he believed the Park Service intended to pull on the threads they hold until there is no fabric left of statehood. MS. WOODRUFF said the Park Service worked out a deal with the upcoming concession permit to have them agree not to engage in any sportfishing, because it was an extractive commercial behavior. That's the signal they are sending out. SENATOR MACKIE asked who actually was at the table when the bill was drafted and what happened to the several years of work. MS. WOODRUFF said she is still searching for the answers to those questions. TAPE 99-06 SIDE A Number 001 SENATOR TAYLOR stated in the legislation that came down, we lost all those areas we'd compromised on, until there wasn't anything left to compromise. His experience had been exactly the same - 25 years of betrayal. He said, "We should be allocating this resource of Alaskans, looking at Glacier Bay and saying, is there room for the kayaker, the longliner, the occasional foreign flag vessel? Unfortunately, we're not going to be given that opportunity; and I applaud you for your efforts." CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked everyone involved in the issue for bringing the committee up to date information. SB 12-FOREST PRACTICES: STREAMS/TRIBUTARIES CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced SB 12 to be up for consideration. JEFF JAHNKE, Director of the Division of Forestry and Presiding Officer for the Board of Forestry, stated that this is a good bill resulting from a two-year effort to resolve some issues with the Forest Practices Act in Region I. It had broad support from all segments of Alaskan society, including the Board of Forestry and the three agencies, and was based on the best available science and had public involvement in all its aspects. It provides additional protection to the key water bodies in Alaska, is workable for the timber industry, and has broad support. Number 113 JACK PHELPS, Executive Director of the Alaska Forest Association, noted his written statement saying the committee has seen the bill before and knows why it's good policy. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if it said "area" or "difference?" MR. PHELPS replied, from an operational standpoint, we need it to say "area," although the technical language problem was duly noted. His second comment was that the forest industry agreed last year after the Legislature failed to pass this legislation, to implement the provisions of this law beginning with the current operating season. No matter how quickly you act, given the 90-day effective date issue, there is no way this would become law until the current operating season is well in hand. Number 148 SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass SB 12 from committee with individual recommendations. There were no objections and it was so ordered. Number 154 CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 5:00 p.m.