Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/26/1997 03:40 PM RES
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE March 26, 1997 3:40 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Rick Halford, Chairman Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman Senator Loren Leman Senator Robin Taylor Senator Georgianna Lincoln Senator John Torgerson MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Bert Sharp COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 24 Relating to the Tongass Land Management Plan and to continued Congressional oversight of that plan. - MOVED CSSJR 24(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 26 "An Act relating to big game tags for wolves; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED HB 26 OUT OF COMMITTEE SENATE BILL NO. 108 "An Act relating to the disposal of state land by lottery." - HEARD AND HELD HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 22 Relating to the maritime boundary between Alaska and the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. - BILL POSTPONED PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION SJR 24 - No previous action to consider. HB 26 - No previous action to consider. SB 108 - No previous action to consider. HJR 22 - No previous action to consider. WITNESS REGISTER Senator Mackie State Capitol Bldg. Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SJR 24. Mr. Walt Sheridan Sheridan and Associates 2155 Cascade St. Juneau, AK 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 24. Mr. Berne C. Miller, Executive Director Southeast Conference 124 West 5th Street Juneau, AK 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 24. Mr. Buck Lindekugel, Conservation Director Southeast Alaska Conservation Council (SEACC) 419 6th St. Juneau, AK 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SJR 24. Mr. Dave Stancliff, Staff Representative Scott Ogan State Capitol Bldg. Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Staff to sponsor of HB 26. Mr. Ken Taylor, Deputy Director Department of Wildlife Conservation Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, AK 99802-5526 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 26. Mr. Terry Otness, Staff Senator Taylor State Capitol Bldg. Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Staff to sponsor of SB 108. Ms. Sue Schrader, Executive Director Alaska Environmental Lobby P.O. Box 22151 Juneau, AK 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 108. Ms. Nanci Jones Alaska Permanent Fund Corporation P.O. Box 25500 Juneau, AK 99802-5500 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 108. Mr. Bill Perhach P.O. Box 34 Denali Park, Ak POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 108. Ms. Jane Angvik, Director Division of Land Department of Natural Resources 3601 C Street Anchorage, AK 99503-5947 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 108. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-21, SIDE A Number 001 SJR 24 TONGASS LAND MANAGEMENT PLAN CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 3:40 p.m. and announced SJR 24 to be up for consideration. SENATOR JERRY MACKIE, sponsor, said it encourages the U.S. Forest Service to bring the Tongass Land Use Management Plan (TLUMP) to a conclusion and supports a level of timber harvest from the Tongass National Forest sufficient to sustain a forest product industry and prevent further job loss and economic disruption in Southeast Alaska. It also endorses continued oversight by Congress and the Alaska Congressional delegation. SENATOR MACKIE said a number of companies had been adversely affected by a reduced harvest. The Southeast Regional Timber Task Force passed a resolution urging the Federal government to finalize a plan for timber harvest in the Tongass and determined a minimum annual harvest level of 300 million board feet (MMBF) was necessary to reestablish a viable integrated timber industry. Number 79 SENATOR TAYLOR said he had an amendment prepared in conjunction with the Alaska Forest Association that deletes "a harvest level of 300 MMBF be maintained, because any decision to further reduce" and insert, "the United States Forest Service make available an annual amount of at least 300 MMBF of timber that is economical to harvest from the Tongass National Forest with offerings uniformly released throughout each fiscal year, because any record of decision that further reduces". SENATOR MACKIE responded that he didn't pull 300 MMBF out of the sky; it is a number that came from the Governor's Timber Task Force which had representatives from municipalities, industry, and environmental groups - a consensus group. SENATOR TAYLOR explained that the Forest Service cannot control the specific harvest levels. That will depend upon contracts and market conditions and other things. They can control a consistent level of offerings of timber volumes. He said there haven't been consistent offerings. SENATOR MACKIE said he didn't see why the amendment wouldn't work since it further refines the language. SENATOR LINCOLN commented the way she read the amendment is that the annual offering has to be at least 300 MMBF and she understood that out of the 11 communities participating in the Southeast Regional Timber Task Force, eight voted against the resolution supporting the 300 MMBF because they felt it was too high. SENATOR MACKIE said that was news to him and his understanding was that 300 MMBF was a recommendation from the Task Force. Number 172 MR. WALT SHERIDAN, Walt Sheridan and Associates, supported SJR 24. He supported previous testimony and added that it also puts the Alaska State Legislature on record as supporting an annual timber harvest from the Tongass of at least 300 MMBF. He said the Forest Service has been working on the plan for over a decade - a decade during which they have seen the loss of over half of the direct timber jobs in Southeast Alaska. He said this level of harvest was from a vote of 11 - 4 on the Governor's Timber Task Force. It was endorsed by the Ketchikan Gateway Borough, the City of Ketchikan, Wrangell, Metlakatla, and Thorne Bay, as well as the industry representatives. Opposition was from the environmental group represented on the Task Force by the Cities of Petersburg and Sitka and a member purporting to represent Tenakee, Elfin Cove, Pelican, Gustavus, Point Baker, and Point Alexander. MR. SHERIDAN said they were asked by environmentalists if they could restructure a timber industry based on value-added processing and produce the same or more jobs on a much smaller timber base. The answer is they should restructure timber industry around value- added processing, but it will be possible only if they can find a way to deal with low quality pulp logs which account for as much as 50% of timber stands on the Tongass. They can't simply log around them taking only the best. To do that would leave a legacy of low grade timber for their children. At the 300 MMBF harvest level there would be sufficient volume to justify the establishment of a minimum facility to process the low grade logs and residual chips. MR. SHERIDAN thought that 300 MMBF could be cut and still preserve the environment and so did the Forest Service according to their draft plan of April 5, 1996 which called for a harvest of 297 MMBF. SENATOR LINCOLN asked him to respond to the Forest Service's concern that they need time to craft a plan that reflects the changes and will be defensible from a legal challenge. MR. SHERIDAN said the draft plan that came out in April was the product of eight or nine years of work and had more scientific review than he had seen any plan the Forest Service had done in the nation. He said they certainly want a plan that is legally defensible, but he has heard of no new science that has become available since April 5 last year when they issued the draft. MR. BERNE MILLER, Executive Director, Southeast Conference, said their mission is to help build strong economies, healthy communities, and a quality environment and he supported SJR 24. In the interests of sustaining a strong regional economy the Conference has repeatedly urged the regional forester to select a TLUMP alternative that does not economically or socially harm Southeast Alaska's people and communities. Last August they advocated that the Forest Service delay completion until defects in their analysis had been corrected. That was before Ketchikan Pulp announced their mill would be closed and there will be social and economic hardship. Until the Forest Service establishes a predictable harvest level through TLUMP it will be impossible to project what kind of timber industry might exist in the region in the future, let alone lay out a business plan for the extensive restructuring obviously needed. For that reason they have changed their position and urge the regional forester to come to a decision based on what his forest supervisors have already placed before him. Number 307 SENATOR LINCOLN asked what his response was to the Task Force vote. MR. MILLER said that you could count the votes or count the communities that were represented which some people have done to suggest that the result was different. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the 11 - 8 community vote was correct. MR. MILLER said that was correct, but only three of the eight communities were represented. SENATOR LINCOLN asked how the other communities got to vote. MR. MILLER replied that they were supposedly represented. SENATOR LINCOLN asked what size of community he meant when referring to a "small community." MR. MILLER replied Gustavus, Pelican, and communities on that order. He thought around 100 - 200 population. CHAIRMAN HALFORD inserted that they were Gustavus, Pelican, Elfin Cove, Tenakee Springs, Port Alexander, and Kupreanof. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the Southeast Conference ever entered into a contract with the McDowell Group or got any feel for what the economic impact might be. MR. MILLER replied that they never did. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if there was any socio-impact information within the TLUMP. MR. MILLER answered not beyond what there was before. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if he was involved in the conference when everyone was voting. MR. MILLER said he wasn't present; that the Southeast Conference was not named to that task force. SENATOR MACKIE said there are many differing opinions and views by location and by occupation in Southeast and it is hard to find a balance. MR. BUCK LINDEKUGEL, Conservation Director, Southeast Alaska Conservation Council, said for the TLUMP to provide the stability and assurance that everyone hopes for, it must insure that logging occurs only at sustainable levels, that are consistent with maintaining current and future demand for fish, wildlife, and the other renewable forest resources that people depend on here in Southeast. The minimum 300 MMBF logging level called for by this resolution is unsustainable and an environmentally destructive cutting level. SEACC opposes SJR 24. They believe the legislature needs to support communities' efforts in making the transition to a new high value added timber industry that produces the most jobs for board foot cut. The 300 MMBF is the preferred alternative identified in the latest draft of the TLUMP and it places important areas to Southeast Alaska communities, including Cleveland Peninsula, Poison Cove, Upper Tenakee Inlet, Port Hooter, Honker Divide, at serious risk. It also fails to provide for the short and long term protection recommended by the agency's own scientific experts to provide for fish habitat and for healthy and huntable wildlife populations. Of the nearly 5,000 comments received on the draft plan this summer from Alaskans, 57% concluded that the preferred alternative was too biased towards logging and called for additional fish and wildlife resource protection. SENATOR TAYLOR asked for his qualifications. MR. LINDEKUGEL replied that he is an attorney and is a member of the bar in Alaska. He came to Alaska first as a commercial fisherman. SENATOR TAYLOR asked him what qualifications he has to say what a sustainable volume of harvest is. MR. LINDEKUGEL said the whole theme behind the public planning process for forest plans and specific timber sales is for the public to be informed by the Forest Service when they prepare an EIS from a particular proposal. He knows how to read and talk to the people who are the experts providing the basis for his conclusions. He said the overwhelming number of experts have suggested that the Forest Service's proposal from this summer's draft was insufficient to provide for long term protection of fish and wildlife on the Tongass. SENATOR TAYLOR said all of the people working at the Forest Service have spent at the minimum eight or nine years of interdepartmental studies on fish, game, soil stability, types of vegetation, and their conclusion last spring was 297 MMBF. He asked if he disagreed with that and if he did, what experts was he relying on. MR. LINDEKUGEL responded that he believes the Forest Service had the information necessary to make a good decision and didn't follow that information. It's conclusions were unsupported by the information in its planning record. He relies upon the same public documents that everyone else who commented on this plan relied on. Number 463 SENATOR TAYLOR asked him to submit the record of the experts he is relying upon. SENATOR MACKIE asked if there was anything in this resolution that was inconsistent with Governor Knowles Task Force's findings were. MR. LINDEKUGEL responded that it is SEACC's position that it's inappropriate for the legislature to be sticking the target level at 300 MMBF as the State's position. He said the Tongass is a national forest and there are a lot of interests at stake and it's supposed to be managed for all those interests. He said he didn't think the Task Force made any findings. He explained there were two presentations made on December 12 in Ketchikan; one was by the Alaska Forest Association and one was done by Dave Katz, a planner for SEACC. Immediately after that the AFA managed to push for a vote endorsing their models without any response to the information SEACC had presented. He did not think that was the right way to resolve controversial issues. They are trying to engage in a civil debate on very complex issues. SENATOR MACKIE commented that he has listened to both the timber industry and the environmental industry and asked him how they can have a viable timber industry in Southeast Alaska that can contribute to the economy without harvesting timber and asked if he didn't like the 300 number, what number did he like. MR. LINDEKUGEL responded that SEACC had never taken a position against logging on the National Forest. They know it has been a way of life for a long time and they respect that. They think that long- term contracts set up an economy that wasn't sustainable and can no longer compete on the international market. Communities were telling them that there are special areas they didn't want to see clear cut for various reasons. They looked at the science that the Forest Service's own experts were developing and came up with a proposal that focused on small scale, locally owned businesses who would be provided up to 100 MMBF of timber. That's been the guarantee for some time and that is what they adopted. SENATOR MACKIE asked him how there can be a sustainable timber industry if you don't have a level of harvest that can actually make it economically feasible. MR. LINDEKUGEL said they have been talking to small operators on the Tongass and trying to identify the type of processes they can work with. Steve Sealy proposed a small saw mill and drying kiln facility in Tolstoy Bay and SEACC came out publicly supporting that. SENATOR MACKIE said it became noneconomic and so they moved the idea to Ketchikan. MR. LINDEKUGEL said that's the kind of approach they want to do. SENATOR MACKIE asked using the mill in Metlakatla, for instance, was that too big to be a small operation that provides meaningful jobs to communities. MR. LINDEKUGEL replied that they have the timber supply for three years and he understands that that mill is old technology. He said he would not accept supplying wood to a mill that can't compete in today's market just because the mill is there. SENATOR LINCOLN said she appreciates having this dialogue and said she wanted the time to reflect upon the poll they had done of 5,000 comments. MR. LINDEKUGEL explained that the Forest Service had a comment time for their draft plan and there were perhaps 20,000 comments. The questions they were responding to were the forest supervisor's proposal that their preferred alternative was an acceptable way to manage the Tongass into the future. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the 57% were all from Alaska. He answered that was correct and they wanted less logging than the preferred alternative. SENATOR TAYLOR moved to adopt amendment #1. SENATOR LINCOLN objected; then removed her objection, and amendment #1 was adopted. TAPE 97-21, SIDE B SENATOR LINCOLN asked on page 2, line 8 where it says the TLUMP EIS indicates no viability problem if the term used was "no short term problem." She wanted to know if that was the correct actual terminology or just a synopsis. SENATOR MACKIE said he would have to check to see if that is the actual wording. SENATOR TAYLOR commented that the goshawk was never known to be in this area, although it's one of the most widely ranging hawks in the northern hemisphere. He said he knew of no species that is threatened or has had its viability challenged or threatened on the near term (which includes up to 15 years). SENATOR LINCOLN asked what the EIS actually said, because what he said is different than the information she got. SENATOR LINCOLN moved to adopt amendment #2 deleting the term "viability" and inserting "short term." SENATOR TAYLOR objected. SENATOR MACKIE asked why she thought there would be a long-term problem. SENATOR LINCOLN said she was seeking accuracy and this is an inaccurate quote. SENATOR TAYLOR said that the rest of the sentence said for 10 - 15 years which is considered short term. He thought the amendment was redundant. SENATOR LINCOLN responded that she didn't mind being redundant if it was factual. SENATOR TAYLOR said to him viability meant if there was a breeding population of that species left. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked for a hand vote. CHAIRMAN HALFORD, SENATORS GREEN, TORGERSON, and TAYLOR voted no; SENATOR LINCOLN voted yes; and the amendment failed. SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass CSSJR 24(RES) with individual recommendations. SENATOR LINCOLN said that Senator Murkowski announced a couple of days ago the Forest Service has a commitment for the completion of TLUMP by June 20 and thought the committee might want to use June 20 in the resolution. SENATOR MACKIE said he was willing to work with her on that issue. There were no objections and it was so ordered. HB 26 BIG GAME TAGS FOR WOLVES CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced HB 26 to be up for consideration. MR. DAVID STANCLIFF, Staff to Representative Ogan, sponsor, said HB 26 was introduced to find a point at which ADF&G can raise revenues from the sale of wolf tags. Presently there are over 10,000 non- residents who hunt in the State and only 3% are purchasing tags and the feeling was that the tag price was a bit high considering how difficult it is to find a wolf. The bill also provides that in areas requiring intensive management no tags would be required. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the wolf was considered a big game animal. MR. STANCLIFF replied yes. She asked if this bill only referred to shooting, not trapping. MR. STANCLIFF replied yes. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if a person comes to Alaska to shoot a wolf, are they required to have a guide. MR. STANCLIFF explained that in most cases a non-resident will have a guide if they are hunting sheep or bear. It is possible in some areas of the State to hunt caribou and moose without a guide, but in no case is it possible to take a wolf without proper sealing. They do not need a guide specifically for a wolf. SENATOR LINCOLN asked how a non-resident, unfamiliar with the land, would hunt for these wolves unguided. MR. STANCLIFF answered that it is presumed that most wolf tags are purchased incidentally to other big game tags. So it is hard to determine how many people come to the State specifically for a wolf. SENATOR LINCOLN said she knows cases where dogs have been shot because someone thought it was a wolf. She asked if they are just trying to raise more revenue with this bill. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he was unsure what she was asking and added that existing law is not changed in this bill. Existing law only requires a guide for a non-resident for sheep and bear. He thought reducing the tag fee might encourage the incidental take by both residents and non- residents, guided or not. MR. KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director, Wildlife Conservation, said they view this as a revenue neutral bill and said they are not in the business of raising money for the department. They are in the business of providing as much opportunity as possible to the public. The wolf population in Alaska is 7,000 - 10,000 and our annual harvest is roughly 1,000 - 1,200 depending on the snow conditions in winter. The population is capable of sustaining a higher harvest than that and they thought increased opportunity could be addressed. He said that the price the legislature put on the tags a few years ago was prohibitive for many hunters who came up and lowering tag fees for this species wouldn't generate additional revenue, but would provide additional opportunity. MR. TAYLOR explained the way they view this working is that non- resident hunters who do come up to hunt moose or caribou are interested in hunting wolves while hunting the other species. He said the department supported the bill as written. SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass HB 26 with individual recommendations. There were no objections and it was so ordered. SB 108 STATE LAND LOTTERY PROGRAM CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced SB 108 to be up for consideration. Number 400 SENATOR TAYLOR, sponsor, said the west was developed by allowing people to have a stake in property; and private land ownership of any magnitude is virtually absent in Alaska. One major covenant of statehood was that Alaska was granted title to over 105 million acres of land by the federal government. To date a minor portion of that land has been turned over to municipalities and an even less significant amount has been put into individual hands. The exception has been the lands granted to native corporations under ANCSA and even that land has not been transferred to individuals. Rather, it has been managed by the corporate entities. This legislation proposes to annually grant 1 million acres of land to Permanent Fund Dividend recipients. The average parcel awarded would be 40 acres in size. Parcels of land would be as small as 5 acres and larger for agricultural uses. Assuming 40 acres is the average size of the parcels, an estimated 25,000 permanent fund recipients would win parcels annually. He further outlined the terms of the land grants. He said winners would be selected at random and would be notified via their permanent fund check or by first class mail. MR. TERRY OTNESS, Staff to Senator Taylor, noted that AS38.14.020 had been left out of the bill. He explained that during drafting the bill some significant archaeological finds, over 6,000 year-old graves, had been discovered on Prince of Wales Island and there was some concern that they might be desecrated. So a provision for scientific research and transfer of land was added. The other issue was AS 38.14.060, the retention of rights-of-ways, where language was clarified to mean when land was put into a parcel of property, if there was an opportunity and a municipality took over title and ownership of that piece of road, they would be able to retain these rights. The other significant change was providing for an application procedure for the land on the permanent fund dividend application, so if people fraudulently obtained land, there would be some way of dealing with them. SENATOR TAYLOR said he spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to pick out the land, but he thought it was best to leave it up to the department. Number 335 SENATOR GREEN asked if he had considered how the land should be priced. SENATOR TAYLOR said there was a lot of discussion on that and the approach he takes is the land is useless at this point, as long as it sits in State ownership, because it will take 15 years of committee hearings before they decide to do anything other than lock something up in a park. He also thought that as long as land remains in State ownership, it's not a resource producer; it's a resource extractor as we hire more and more people to study and worry over it. There is nothing done to create wealth out of that land. SENATOR GREEN said she is working on changing some agriculture land to perpetual covenant and there are a lot of hoops to go through to get a fair price for the change in status for the ability to build a house. CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted that the interest on winning the lottery is freely transferable and asked if that was before staking or filing or at any point on the way. SENATOR TAYLOR said it was transferable any point along the way and his concern was to help some people who receive a couple of parcels of land and don't have enough money to meet the additional requirements that would be necessary to result in transference of the land. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he was considering 25,000 parcels. SENATOR TAYLOR replied that was the ball park. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked him to explain why the parcels are exempt from AS 38.04 and AS 38.05. SENATOR GREEN explained that was for cadastral survey. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he thought that the parcels, offered in quarters of quarters of quarters of quarters within a township in a range, in the bill would be impossible to find if a survey wasn't required. This could be offered in an unsurveyed township in an unsurveyed section by a parcel as small as five acres. TAPE 97-22, SIDE A Number 001 SENATOR TAYLOR pointed out that there are over 615,000 acres currently sitting on the shelf aliquot surveyed by the department. that could be half of this year's allotment. Number 40 MS. SUE SCHRADER, Executive Director, Alaska Environmental Lobby, said that all Alaskans currently enjoy the benefits of using the 105 million acres of State land and would be surprised to hear that this land is useless to us. People who have enjoyed recreating, hunting, or doing subsistence activity on State land don't consider it useless. MS. SCHRADER said this bill would create an unnecessary, expensive, staff time-intensive, give-away program that may benefit a few individuals, but would have significant diminished opportunities for the majority of Alaskans who share in the natural resources. The State lands are held in trust for all of us by our State government. The Public Trust Doctrine, which contains the legislature's fiduciary responsibilities, is a strong tradition in Alaska's history and there are several provisions in this bill that run counter to this provision. Specifically they are lands exempted from AS 38.04 and AS 38.05, the planning classification and disposal safeguards. These safeguards were developed after considerable public participation and represent years of land planning. The bill makes reference to addressing the mandate of Article 8, Section 10 of the State Constitution to provide prior public notice. Yet it fails to acknowledge the rest of that particular section and fails to assure Alaskans that the other safeguards of their public interest will be met. They are also concerned with the exemption from AS 38.14.080, the coastal management program (ACMP). This program is very popular with the many Alaskans who live and work in the coastal areas. Exemption from ACMP is an affront to all Alaskans who work with State agencies to ensure the safeguards necessary for the responsible stewardship of our resources are observed. Just because land is transferred into private hands does not mean these safeguards that affect all of us should be suspended. MS. SCHRADER said land disposal programs already exist and would work if adequate funding were provided to DNR for implementation of them. Lastly, she said, this is a costly give-away program and not fiscally responsible. When the legislature is cutting agencies' budgets, it makes no sense to initiate an expensive program with goals that could be met just as effectively if existing programs were adequately funded. SENATOR LEMAN said he thought she made many good points, but he has a basic philosophical difference with her in calling private ownership of land the ultimate lockup. Whenever we think the best use of land is for it to be used communally it misses the point that people like to have their own property. However, he thinks that people have to be responsible with how they use that property and there are things in the bill to make sure that takes place. MS. SCHRADER responded that she has disagreed with many of the comments she has heard, particularly working with Channel Island State Marine Park, about the lock-up of land in State parks. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if she advocated reopening the existing land disposal programs on the books. MS. SCHRADER said she isn't that familiar with land disposal programs and couldn't comment at this point. She added that the Lobby is not endorsing a no-land disposal process. MS. NANCI JONES, Director, Permanent Fund Dividend, said she hoped their division could have a very, very, small part in this by simply handing the name and addresses to the Department of Natural Resources. To be more involved would be costly and they are trying to move away from a paper intensive operation. They handle over 8 million pieces of paper and just the application process and is very labor intensive. She said as their application exists today there is no more room for anything else on it. MS. JONES said they submitted a $0 fiscal note with the understanding that they could just give them files with names and addresses. If they notify people on the dividend, they would have to stop an automated process in the check run and look for individuals throughout 500,000 checks. SENATOR TAYLOR said that was fine with him as long as they did random selections based on applications. SENATOR LEMAN commented that for the first time this year he recalls seeing the Governor's picture. MS. JONES said that was on the cover of the application booklet which was her idea since it is a 20th anniversary commemorative issue. Number 260 MR. BILL PERHACH said he lives in McKinley Village and is in Juneau for six weeks to work with the Alaska Environmental Lobby. He said he disagrees with the finding section of the bill. He thought it might end up reducing the quality of life in the bush and rural communities. He explained for the Denali Borough to get their municipal entitlement, 50,000 - 70,000 acres, the Land Use Planning Committee had to complete their comprehensive plan. It took them three years to put it together and in the process they became enlightened about the importance of planning. One of the things about this bill that bothers him is that it doesn't pay any attention to planning. If you are going to encourage development without planning, at the very least it's short-sighted and probably irresponsible. He used the example of Glitter Gulch for a place that hadn't been planned with issues like safety and access in mind. MR. PERHACH said if they are talking about adding large acreages to communities and plugging into the State they are going to have the regular services. Another big problem is access. Trails follow the contours of land, not section lines; and none of the ones he uses qualifies for an RS2477. He said that once a person is in a remote area in order to survive, he has to be able to go somewhere and get a job. Survey costs would be very expensive as there are no markers or monuments. The chain of title for a lot of small parcels is very clouded like they were with the mental health trust lands. He said people in his community want to have access to land, but not to remote parcels. They want land they can build a home on and raise a family. He said ANCSA picked the best lands next to roads and rights-of-way and detailed planning was needed to work with the access issue. CHAIRMAN HALFORD agreed with him that there is pressure out there for land. MR. PERHACH said this would actually add to the problem because it's another bad plan. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said that the development side says that planning is an excuse for inaction; and the environmental community says that development is without planning at all. Number 429 MS. JANE ANGVIK, Director, Division of Land, said she would answer their questions and would be happy to come back at another time, as well. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked her to get a summary of any land offerings by the State in any classification. She answered that she would get that to him and they had a significant land disposal in 1995 of over 424 parcels and 53 homesteads for about 2,500 acres. Their problem now is that they don't have any money to implement a disposal program right now. She thought there was room for conversation about a disposal program between no land disposal and 1 million acres a year. CHAIRMAN HALFORD told her to get her information together and they would have that discussion. He then adjourned the meeting at 5:47 p.m.