Legislature(1995 - 1996)

03/27/1995 03:40 PM Senate RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                   SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE                                  
                         March 27, 1995                                        
                           3:40 p.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Senator Loren Leman, Chairman                                                 
 Senator Steve Frank                                                           
 Senator Rick Halford                                                          
 Senator Robin Taylor                                                          
 Senator Georgianna Lincoln                                                    
 Senator Lyman Hoffman                                                         
  COMMITTEE MEMBERS ABSENT                                                     
 Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman                                            
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
 SENATE BILL NO. 112                                                           
 "An Act establishing a discovery royalty credit for the lessees of            
 state land drilling exploratory wells and making the first                    
 discovery of oil or gas in commercial quantities."                            
 SENATE BILL NO. 81                                                            
 "An Act classifying the wolf as a predator and providing for a                
 bounty on wolf."                                                              
 CS FOR SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 128(RES) am                      
 "An Act relating to the disposal of wastes; giving the Alaska Oil             
 and Gas Conservation Commission authority to regulate disposal in             
 the annular space of an oil or gas well, or in the annular space of           
 a water well associated with exploration and production of oil or             
 gas, of drilling mud, cuttings, and nonhazardous drilling operation           
 wastes, and exempting that disposal from the requirement of a waste           
 disposal permit issued by the Department of Environmental                     
 Conservation; and establishing an exemption from the requirement of           
 obtaining a waste disposal permit from the Department of                      
 Environmental Conservation for certain activities that yield solid            
 and liquid waste material discharges and cooling water discharges."           
 SENATE BILL NO. 69                                                            
 "An Act relating to hazardous chemicals, hazardous materials, and             
 hazardous waste."                                                             
 SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 20                                                
 Relating to the Western Alaska Community Development Quota Program,           
 the inshore/offshore allocation process, and the North Pacific                
 Fishery Management Council Comprehensive Rationalization Program.             
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
 SB 113 (REDUCTION IN ROYALTY FOR CERTAIN USES) was scheduled but              
 not taken up on this date.                                                    
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
 HB 102 (EXTEND BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD) was scheduled              
 but not taken up on this date.                                                
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
 HB 169 (DEPT. NAT RES. IS LEAD AGENCY FOR MINING) was scheduled but           
 not taken up on this date.                                                    
  PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION                                             
 SB 112 - See Resources minutes dated 3/08/95, 3/10/95, 3/17/95.               
 SB 81 - See Resources minutes dated 2/20/95.                                  
 HB 128 - See Resources minutes dated 3/22/95.                                 
 SB 69 - See Resources minutes dated 2/22/95.                                  
 SJR 20 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
 Kevin Tabler, Manager                                                         
 Union Oil                                                                     
 P.O. Box 196247, Anchorage, AK 99519¶263-7600                                 
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports SB 112                                         
 Ken Boyd, Acting Director                                                     
 Division of Oil & Gas, Department of Natural Resources                        
 3601 C St., Ste. 1380, Anchorage, AK 99503-5948¶762-2547                      
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 112                                     
 Steve Peterson, Acting Deputy Director                                        
 Div. of Wildlife Conservation, Dept. of Fish & Game                           
 P.O. Box 25526, Juneau, AK 99802-5526¶465-6196                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: opposed to SB 81                                        
 Mark Luttrell, President                                                      
 Eastern Kenai Peninsula Environmental Action Association                      
 P.O. Box 511, Seward, AK 99664¶224-5372                                       
   POSITION STATEMENT: opposed to SB 81                                        
 Mike Tetreau                                                                  
 P.O. Box 3046, Seward, AK 99664¶224-3175                                      
   POSITION STATEMENT: opposed to SB 81                                        
 Jack Phelps, Aide to Representative Williams                                  
 State Capitol, Juneau, Alaska, 99801-1182¶465-3424                            
   POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 128                                 
 Geron Bruce, Legislative Liaison                                              
 Department of Fish & Game                                                     
 P.O. Box 25526, Juneau, AK 99802-5526¶465-6143                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 128                                     
 Annette Kreitzer, Aide to the Senate Resources Committee                      
 State Capitol, Juneau, Alaska, 99801-1182¶465-2095                            
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on behalf of Senator Leman                    
 Camille Stevens                                                               
 Department of Environmental Conservation                                      
 410 Willoughby Ave., Ste. 105, Juneau, AK 99801¶465-5050                      
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 69                                      
 Chester Weger, Assistant State Fire Marshal                                   
 5700 Tudor Rd., Anchorage, AK 99507-1225¶269-5905                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 69                                      
 Karl Ohls, Executive Director                                                 
 Western Alaska Fisheries Development Association                              
 725 Christensen Dr., Anchorage, AK 99501¶279-6519                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports SJR 20                                         
 Kimberly Metcalfe Helmar, Special Assistant                                   
 Department of Community & Regional Affairs                                    
 P.O. Box 112100, Juneau, AK 99811-2100                                        
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports SJR 20                                         
 David Benton, Acting Deputy Commissioner                                      
 Department of Fish & Game                                                     
 P.O. Box 25526, Juneau, AK 99802-5526¶465-4115                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: supports SJR 20                                         
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
  TAPE 95-28, SIDE A                                                           
 Number 001                                                                    
  CHAIRMAN LEMAN  called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to             
 order at 3:40 p.m.                                                            
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
               SB 112 DISCOVERY ROYALTY CREDIT                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up SB 112 as the first order of business               
 before the Senate Resources Committee.  The chairman stated it is             
 the intent of the committee to take testimony on SB 112 and hold              
 the bill for further work.  The chairman called the first witness.            
 KEVIN TABLER, Manager, Union Oil Company, testifying from                     
 Anchorage, thanked the committee for working on this legislation.             
 Mr. Tabler thinks SB 112 has merit.  He brought the committee's               
 attention to page 3, line 23, and asked the committee to look at              
 the definition of "geologic structure."  On page 3, line 24, Union            
 Oil thinks the language "of production" should be inserted after            
 the word "years."                                                             
 Number 094                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded it is the intent of the committee to                 
 encourage a faster production.  He is not sure that encouragement             
 would be there if the language "of production" was inserted on page         
 3, line 24.  However, he recognizes that delays out of the control            
 of oil companies can occur, so the committee will consider that               
 suggestion.  The chairman asked Mr. Tabler if he has any specific             
 comments about further defining "first discoveries."                          
 Number 106                                                                    
 MR. TABLER replied he does not have any further specific comments             
 at this time.                                                                 
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Tabler to contact the committee if he                
 comes up with any further suggestions.                                        
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Tabler to explain why he would like to see           
 the language, "of production" added on page 3, line 24.                     
 MR. TABLER responded there may be delays between first discovery              
 and the point of first production.                                            
 Number 124                                                                    
 KEN BOYD, Acting Director, Division of Oil & Gas, Department of               
 Natural Resources, testifying from Anchorage, recommended that the            
 commercial standard be separated from the exploratory standard.  It           
 needs to be made clear that discovery means just that.  Another               
 issue already touched on regards geologic structures.  Scale of               
 geologic structure needs to be further defined.  There is not a               
 good definition of geologic structure.  Mr. Boyd thinks it would be           
 better to separate the distinct hydrocarbon accumulations.  He                
 would be glad to work with the committee on developing those                  
 definitions.  His last concern is that the bill not give a royalty            
 reduction to all production on a lease, but just to the new                 
 discoveries on a lease.                                                       
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN noted that the committee would be working with Mr.             
 Boyd on clarification of language in SB 112.  The chairman asked if           
 anyone else wished to testify.                                                
 Number 193                                                                    
 SENATOR HALFORD asked if there is anything in SB 112 clarifying               
 that the Alaska Oil & Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC) will                
 still be able deal with the rate of production, if that is contrary           
 to the long-term maximum yield of a field.                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN commented that was a good question.  He asked if               
 anyone from the AOGCC was on-line in Anchorage and could testify              
 regarding that question.  The chairman asked Mr. Boyd if he could             
 respond to that question.                                                     
 MR. BOYD does not believe that would be a problem.  He thinks the             
 AOGCC would continue to have authority over all those issues.  He             
 doesn't thinks any company would rush to damage the formation.  Mr.           
 Boyd thinks Mr. Tabler's point regarding lead-time before                     
 production is of more concern.  He thinks the AOGCC would have                
 complete authority over the concern raised by Senator Halford.                
 SENATOR HALFORD just wanted to make clear that the AOGCC would                
 still have the authority to handle such a problem.                            
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no further testimony or questions,                    
 announced that SB 112 would be held.  SB 112 will be taken up again           
 sometime after April 5, 1995.                                                 
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
             SB  81 CLASSIFYING WOLF AS PREDATOR                             
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up SB 81 as the next order of business                 
 before the Senate Resources Committee.  The chairman asked for a              
 report from the subcommittee on SB 81.                                        
 SENATOR HALFORD stated that the subcommittee tried to formulate a             
 committee substitute which would satisfy the objections raised to             
 the original bill.  The original premise was to specify a $400                
 state-wide bounty, and that a wolf could be taken anywhere, anyhow,           
 anyway.  Under SB 81, wolves would be unclassified game, a                    
 furbearer, and could be taken by any method or means approved for             
 taking unclassified game or furbearers.  The bounty was reduced to            
 $200, and would only apply in areas designated by the board of                
 game.  The wolf also must be presented for identification to an               
 office designated by the commissioner.  The intent is that not                
 every office of the Department of Fish & Game be used for sealing             
 of wolves taken under the bounty.  Senator Halford thinks those               
 points will satisfy some of the objections to SB 81, although he              
 realizes they will not satisfy the objections of those who are                
 universally opposed to any kind of incentive for predator harvest.            
 SENATOR TAYLOR expressed appreciation to Senator Halford for the              
 work done on SB 81.  Senator Taylor supports a harvest incentive              
 program, and thinks $200 plus the value of the hide is a more                 
 reasonable amount to pay for bounty than that which was originally            
 proposed in the bill.  He asked Senator Halford to further define             
 the methods or means by which wolves could be taken.                          
 SENATOR HALFORD responded that there is a prohibition on taking               
 furbearers with a shotgun, because of the damage done to the hide.            
 Furbearers can be taken with a rifle or with a trap.                          
 SENATOR TAYLOR commented an effective way to control wolves is the            
 use of shotguns and aerial hunting.                                           
 SENATOR HALFORD replied that aerial hunting has always been done by           
 permit.  SB 81 regards the general classification of wolves and               
 instituting a bounty system.                                                  
 SENATOR TAYLOR noted SB 81 will still leave that up to the                    
 discretion of the board.  He does not know that public attitude has           
 a thing to do with good or bad game management.  He thinks it has             
 a lot to do with public attitude.                                             
 SENATOR HALFORD responded he can't fix that; he was just working              
 with the bill Senator Taylor introduced.                                      
 [There is discussion that perhaps an "a" should be deleted from               
 page 1, line 3.  Committee staff was instructed to correct the                
 inconsistency between drafts.]                                                
 Number 319                                                                    
 SENATOR HALFORD made a motion to adopt the committee substitute.              
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, stated the committee                    
 substitute had been adopted.                                                  
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked for clarification regarding the department's            
 position on the committee substitute.  She also asked if the                  
 committee substitute would have an impact on the fiscal note.                 
 Number 325                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN clarified that on page 1, line 3 the "a" just before           
 "wolf" will be deleted, so the title will read, "...incentive on              
 wolf taken in areas...."   On page 2, line 3 after the word                   
 "department" the language, "designated by the commissioner" will be           
 Number 336                                                                    
 STEVE PETERSON, Acting Deputy Director, Division of Wildlife                  
 Conservation, Department of Fish & Game, repeated some of the                 
 testimony given by Mr. Regelin at an earlier date.  The division's            
 position remains essentially the same as it was for the original              
 bill: the division is opposed to SB 81.                                       
 Number 365                                                                    
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Peterson if the committee substitute                
 would affect the fiscal note from the division.                               
 MR. PETERSON responded, as far as he knows, the committee                     
 substitute will not affect the fiscal note.                                   
 SENATOR HALFORD commented that the bounty is cut in half.                     
 MR. PETERSON said that is true, but he does not think that will               
 change the number of wolves taken.                                            
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Peterson what the department is proposing           
 for wolf control, other than having a bounty.  She has not heard              
 any other alternatives offered by the department.                             
 Number 386                                                                    
 MR. PETERSON thinks the department could work with the Board of               
 Game, if the board set up some intensive management areas.  Mr.               
 Peterson thinks it would be good for the department to be given               
 clear statutory authority that specifies if the board sets up                 
 intensive management areas, the department could permit for those             
 SENATOR HALFORD expressed concern that SB 81 might pass with a                
 $20,000 fiscal note, or it might pass without a fiscal note.  He              
 thinks the committee substitute would add to the board's ability,             
 without mandating anything.                                                   
 MR. PETERSON replied he just can't anticipate how the board will              
 react to SB 81.                                                               
 SENATOR HALFORD stated that forcing the board to use a tool is like           
 pushing on a rope, but giving them the tool would at least give the           
 board the opportunity to consider intensive game management.                  
 MR. PETERSON agreed with Senator Halford.                                     
 Number 428                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Peterson if he is wrong to conclude that             
 the board and the department have both abandoned any wolf or                  
 predator control.                                                             
 MR. PETERSON thinks the truth of that statement depends on how one            
 defines predator control: trappers can be very effective in certain           
 areas.  But there is no doubt that the public is very concerned               
 about control programs.                                                       
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks the people of the state have a right to know            
 what the department intends to do.  He asked Mr. Peterson to                  
 confirm that the department's attitude is to not do anything,                 
 unless the public approves.                                                   
 MR. PETERSON responded that the commissioner has stated he wants a            
 program that is broadly accepted by the public.                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Peterson what the commissioner is                    
 suggesting to the legislature.  Senator Taylor asserted that the              
 department is not responding to the legislature's attempt to work             
 on the issue.                                                                 
 MR. PETERSON replied there are people on both sides of the fence,             
 and the department tries to balance that.                                     
 Number 435                                                                    
 MARK LUTTRELL, President, Eastern Kenai Peninsula Environmental               
 Action Alliance, testifying from Seward, does not think the changes           
 are substantial, and thinks changing "bounty" to "harvest                     
 incentive" is insulting.  Mr. Luttrell asked the committee to                 
 consult more with the commissioner of the Department of Fish &                
 Number 457                                                                    
 MIKE TETREAU, testifying from Seward, thinks any type of a bounty             
 or harvest incentive would be medieval game management, at best.              
 Mr. Tetreau asserted that predator control is an outdated and                 
 unscientific management technique that is doomed to fail, as has              
 been shown through past experience.  He thinks SB 81 reflects a               
 very simplistic view of the natural environment.                              
 Number 469                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Tetreau if he has any proposal for                   
 management of predators.                                                      
 MR. TETREAU responded that the whole idea of limiting the number of           
 predators, simply to increase the number of prey available to                 
 hunters is debatable in and of itself.  He suggested SB 81 may                
 simply be a ploy to take some of the heat off trappers.  If                   
 predators have to be managed, then a controlled method, such as a             
 trapping program would certainly be preferable to a wide-open                 
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Tetreau if he would support a trapping               
 program, as opposed to SB 81.                                                 
 MR. TETREAU replied he would support trapping over a bounty                   
 program, but he does not feel that trapping is necessary either,              
 for this particular problem.                                                  
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Tetreau if he is an employee of the state            
 and would benefit through his wages from involvement in a trapping            
 MR. TETREAU said he would not benefit from a trapping program.  He            
 repeated that he does not see a need for wolf control, but that he            
 would support trapping over an open public bounty.                            
 Number 490                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to discharge SB 81 from the Senate               
 Resources Committee with individual recommendations.                          
 SENATOR HALFORD asked the department to submit a new fiscal note.             
 SENATOR TAYLOR added there should be mandatory sex education for              
 wolves.  We would probably be as successful as we've been with                
 teenagers.  He also suggested using parvo virus.                              
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, stated SB 81 was discharged             
 from the Senate Resources Committee with individual                           
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
            HB 128 WASTE DISPOSAL PERMIT EXEMPTION                           
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up HB 128 as the next order of business                
 before the Senate Resources Committee.  The chairman asked for a              
 motion to adopt the committee substitute.                                     
 SENATOR FRANK made a motion to adopt the committee substitute for             
 HB 128.                                                                       
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, stated the committee                    
 substitute had been adopted.                                                  
 JACK PHELPS, Aide to Representative Williams, prime sponsor of HB
 128, stated the committee substitute before the committee contains            
 two amendments suggested at the March 22 meeting of the Senate                
 Resources Committee.  One amendment was a rewrite to simplify                 
 Section 3, which was suggested by the Department of Environmental             
 Conservation.  The other amendment was suggested by the Alaska Oil            
 & Gas Association (AOGA): they were concerned that the bill would             
 give the impression that new permitting authority is being created,           
 which is not the case.  Mr. Phelps reviewed the amendments in                 
 further detail.  On page 2, line 22, an amendment suggested by the            
 Department of Law was made to clarify that disposal is subject to           
 regulation under Title 31.  Also, subsection (g) is a new                     
 Number 542                                                                    
 MR. PHELPS informed the committee that a drafting error was made on           
 page 2, line 27.                                                              
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked which draft the committee was working from.             
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded the committee is working from draft H by             
 Chenoweth, dated 3/24/95, which has been adopted as a committee               
 MR. PHELPS stated the problem with the language on page 2, line 27            
 is that the definition in regulations is to "a point source", not             
 "a point source discharge."  Mr. Phelps suggested changing the                
 language to read, "does not produce a discharge from a point                  
 source, as that term is defined in regulations...."                           
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Phelps if "discharge" is defined in                  
 MR. PHELPS believes the term "discharge" is defined in regulation.            
 Number 570                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to adopt Mr. Phelps' suggested                   
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection to the amendment, stated that            
 amendment #1 had been adopted.                                                
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked why there is a new fiscal note from the                 
 Department of Fish & Game.                                                    
 MR. PHELPS replied he did not realize ADF&G had submitted a new               
 fiscal note; he did not request it.  Mr. Phelps asked if the fiscal           
 note was substantially different from the fiscal note that came               
 over from the house.                                                          
 SENATOR LINCOLN said the fiscal note is still zero, but the                   
 previous fiscal note seemed to support....  Senator Lincoln asked             
 if there was someone from ADF&G who could answer that question.               
 MR. PHELPS stated he would be happy to go find Geron Bruce from               
 ADF&G, but he thinks the changes that occurred in the House                   
 Resources Committee...                                                        
 SENATOR LINCOLN said she wasn't going to repeat her question.                 
 MR. PHELPS continued, saying the changes that occurred in House               
 Resources haven't changed in this version of HB 128.                          
 TAPE 95-28, SIDE B                                                            
 MR. PHELPS  stated he would be happy to defer to Mr. Bruce.                   
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN repeated Senator Lincoln's question for Mr. Bruce:             
 she wants to know why the changes made to HB 128 caused the                   
 department to submit a new fiscal note.                                       
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked why the endorsement in the fiscal note                  
 analysis has been dropped from the new fiscal note.                           
 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison, Department of Fish & Game, stated           
 the new fiscal note is just an updated fiscal note for the new                
 version of the bill.  It doesn't have any additional impact on the            
 department.  It is still a zero fiscal note.                                  
 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to discharge HB 128 from the Senate              
 Resources Committee with individual recommendations.                          
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there were any objections to the motion.              
 SENATOR TAYLOR objected, for the purpose of determining whether or            
 not the department opposed the bill.                                          
 Number 561                                                                    
 MR. BRUCE responded that the department does not oppose HB 128.  He           
 also apologized for not being present to immediately answer Senator           
 Lincoln's question.                                                           
 SENATOR TAYLOR removed his objection.                                         
 SENATOR FRANK asked whether the department supported the bill or              
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN compared Senator Frank's and Senator Taylor's                  
 questions to the difference between non-retention and firing                  
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the committee is still talking about                  
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there was any objection to moving HB 128              
 from committee.  Hearing none, the chairman stated the bill was               
 discharged from the Senate Resources Committee with individual                
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
           SB  69 REPORTING OF HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCE                           
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up SB 69 as the next order of business                 
 before the Senate Resources Committee.  The chairman informed                 
 members that the committee was working on version G.  The chairman            
 asked for a motion to adopt the committee substitute.                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to adopt the committee substitute for            
 SB 69.                                                                        
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, stated the committee                    
 substitute had been adopted.  The chairman asked Ms. Kreitzer to              
 review the changes made to SB 69.                                             
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN called an at ease.                                             
 ANNETTE KREITZER, Aide to the Senate Resources Committee, testified           
 for Senator Leman, prime sponsor of SB 69.  Ms. Kreitzer noted that           
 a fax from Rita Venta listing the types of chemicals addressed by             
 SB 69 has been distributed to committee members.  Concerns raised             
 by the LEPC Association have also been included in members'                   
 packets.  There is also an additional fiscal note from DEC, even              
 though the department already has the responsibility of mailing out           
 tier II forms.  Ms. Kreitzer reiterated that SB 69 would remove the           
 placarding program from the State Fire Marshal's Office.  There               
 isn't a lot of support for that program, so SB 69 deals mostly with           
 changes to current law regarding the municipal placarding program             
 under Title 29.                                                               
 MS. KREITZER noted that one change in the committee substitute is             
 the ability for SERC and a municipality to delete substances from             
 these lists.  SB 69 will actually lessen the reporting                        
 requirements.  There will be no additional reporting requirements.            
 Number 510                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Ms. Kreitzer, "since we've got this thing in             
 front of us, why don't we do something meaningful by taking out               
 some of these things that may not have any significant value to               
 being reported in the first place."  Senator Taylor thinks there              
 are a lot of things listed as hazardous substances, which he does             
 not think should be considered hazardous substances.                          
 MS. KREITZER replied that is exactly what they tried to do here.              
 The requirements that are here are federal requirements, with the             
 exception of paragraph (2) on page 3.  Ms. Kreitzer stated that SB
 69 contains a figure of 500 pounds, instead of the federal                    
 requirement of 10,000 pounds, because that was the figure favored             
 by the Municipality of Anchorage and fire departments around the              
 state, due to population density.  However, there are exclusions              
 for urea and other fertilizers.  The idea was to stick with the               
 federal requirements, and not impose additional reporting                     
 requirements on facilities.                                                   
 SENATOR TAYLOR asserted that additional reporting requirements are            
 being imposed by the language in paragraph (2) on page 3.                     
 MS. KREITZER responded that "500 pounds" is the language already in           
 current law.  We are not changing what the legislature passed back            
 in 1986 or 1987.  At that time, there was also a requirement that             
 facilities report a consumer commodity of hazardous material in a             
 quantity of more than 1,000 pounds.  That was meant to get at the             
 Fred Meyer's, the Walmarts, and the K-Marts.  As with a gunshop,              
 fire departments ought to know that those stores have weedkiller,             
 and all those other types of things.                                          
 SENATOR TAYLOR stated he would like to see a listing of hazardous             
 wastes.  [He finds a list in his bill packet, and questions the               
 different quantities listed.]                                                 
 MS. KREITZER replied that the amounts Senator Taylor is questioning           
 are federal RCRA (Resource Conservation & Recovery Act) reporting             
 requirements.  That information is already required to be reported.           
 What we are trying to do by sticking with the federal definitions             
 is to allow facilities to use just one form when reporting.  Right            
 now, reporters are required to provide information in four                    
 different formats, under four different laws.  We are trying to               
 streamline the process.                                                       
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Senator Taylor if he understands that they are           
 just trying to coordinate state requirements with the federal                 
 requirements, in order to streamline reporting.                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR said all he is trying to do is show the committee              
 that we are 20 times higher in our reporting requirements than the            
 federal government.  This is hardly reasonable, and he does not               
 care, if that is what the Anchorage Fire Department wants to                  
 establish.  Senator Taylor thinks the federal form is more than               
 adequate.  He asked why we would want to impose a burden like that            
 on our own people.                                                            
 MS. KREITZER reiterated that the Municipality of Anchorage and the            
 Anchorage Fire Department support maintaining the 500 pound                   
 quantity, because of population density.                                      
 SENATOR TAYLOR said he wants to hear whether the business people              
 who have to go through a reporting process at a rate 20 times                 
 higher than the federal requirement would support that.                       
 MS. KREITZER responded she has also worked with Unocal, BP,                   
 Alyeska, and ARCO, and they felt that 500 pounds was a reasonable             
 amount to have to report.  Those companies were also instrumental             
 in the development of SB 69.                                                  
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he had 500 pounds of salt if he would have            
 to report it.                                                                 
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN replied he would not.                                          
 SENATOR HALFORD asked how SB 69 would affect a substance consisting           
 of a mixture of chemicals listed.                                             
 MS. KREITZER thinks that under Tier II reporting requirements,                
 mixtures must be reported.  She knows that there has been confusion           
 on that point, so she will let Ms. Stevens address that.                      
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Ms. Stevens if she would like to respond to              
 Senator Halford's question.                                                   
 SENATOR HALFORD restated his question: when you have something on             
 this list that says the reportable quantity is "any", and that item           
 is a part of a compound in a common mixture, does that mean that              
 has to be placarded?                                                          
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN gave acetone cyanohydrin as an example.                        
 Number 415                                                                    
 CAMILLE STEVENS, Department of Environmental Conservation,                    
 responded her program does not deal with placarding.                          
 MS. KREITZER asked if it would have to be reported under Emergency            
 Planning Committee right to know.                                             
 MS. STEVENS asked if Senator Halford is looking at the Tier II                
 SENATOR HOFFMAN replied it is Anchorage's list.                               
 MS. STEVENS stated it is her understanding that the Anchorage list            
 is a little bit different from the Tier II list.  DEC's program               
 operates under the federal law.  The Tier II reportable substances            
 are MSDS (material safety data sheet) chemicals.  The extremely               
 hazardous substances are a subset of that.  With the MSDS                     
 substances, quantities 10,000 pounds and over would be reportable             
 on the Tier II form.  If it is an EHS (Extremely Hazardous                    
 Substance), it has a reportable quantity established by the EPA               
 under regulations.  She couldn't tell Senator Halford exactly what            
 is reportable, substance by substance.  She would have to look at             
 the EHS list.                                                                 
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Ms. Stevens to look at page 10 on the list.              
 Senator Taylor asserted that 500 pounds of kerosene should not have           
 to be reported: it is not an uncommon item in Alaska.  Senator                
 Taylor also listed lacquer thinner and lacquers, liquified natural            
 gas, and liquified petroleum gas.  He thinks every damn trailer               
 house in his town would have to report.  How many pounds do those             
 tanks hold?                                                                   
 MS. KREITZER responded the placarding program is only applicable to           
 businesses.  It is not applicable to residences.                              
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks it would be applicable to anyone with a park            
 in Anchorage.                                                                 
 MS. KREITZER replied if it is an underground storage tank, they               
 must already report under the UST program.                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR noted most compressed natural and petroleum gas is             
 above ground.                                                                 
 SENATOR FRANK asked about propane.                                            
 SENATOR TAYLOR responded that's what it is.                                   
 SENATOR HALFORD commented that the fire marshal wants them                    
 underground, and the EPA wants them above the ground.                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR stated propane is liquified petroleum gas, found on            
 page 11.  You can't have more than 500 pounds without placarding              
 SENATOR TAYLOR noted that on page 12, naphtha coal tar, naphtha               
 petroleum, and naphtha solvent have to be reported.  He does not              
 know of very many mechanical places that don't have those.                    
 SENATOR HALFORD noted that tetra ethyl lead is also on the list.              
 That is an element of one gallon of regular gas.  It says "any."              
 MS. KREITZER replied this is current law; these people have been              
 reporting under this law.                                                     
 SENATOR HALFORD stated, "No they haven't."                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN noted they have just been required to report, under            
 the law.  He asked Fire Marshal Weger if he would like to testify.            
 CHESTER WEGER, Assistant State Fire Marshal, testifying from                  
 Anchorage, stated the current program, which became effective in              
 1987 has never been funded and has not worked.  There are only 14             
 places state-wide which have been placarded by the State Fire                 
 Marshal's Office.  Mr. Weger stated there are so many different               
 reporting programs and requirements, that no one is reporting to              
 the fire marshal's office, anyway.  And the fire marshal's office             
 does not have the funding or the personnel to enforce the law.                
 SENATOR TAYLOR doesn't know why we are worrying about modifying it            
 to make it more user friendly, when it isn't being used or                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks Mr. Weger was referring to the placarding               
 MR. WEGER responded that is correct.  There is a difference between           
 the reporting requirements and the placarding requirements.                   
 Number 342                                                                    
 MS. KREITZER reiterated the reasons for passing SB 69.                        
 Number 310                                                                    
 SENATOR HOFFMAN asked if it would be fair to say that SB 69 would             
 simply minimize an unfunded mandate.                                          
 SENATOR TAYLOR and CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded it would.                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR said it doesn't help reduce it; it is another fees             
 MS. KREITZER responded, this law has been in effect since 1986.               
 The Municipality of Anchorage does have a fee program in place to           
 support placarding.  Fees are already an option for municipalities.           
 A municipality is not required to take on a placarding program.               
 SENATOR TAYLOR noted his reason for debating it in the first place            
 is to see if they could make it more user friendly for the people             
 who sent us here.  Mr. Mystrom did not send him to this place; as             
 a consequence, he is more interested in alleviating burdensome                
 regulations than in making them better.                                       
 SENATOR FRANK asked if the committee could establish a subcommittee           
 on SB 69 consisting of Senator Taylor and Senator Taylor.                     
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN informed the committee that Senator Taylor could               
 request that in Judiciary Committee, if he would like to do so.               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked if SB 69 had been referred to the Judiciary              
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded no, but Senator Taylor can request that              
 the bill go to the Judiciary Committee, if he wishes.  The chairman           
 expressed a desire to move the bill from committee.                           
 [There is debate over whether or not the subject should be brought            
 before congress.]                                                             
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks a reporting requirement 20 times higher than            
 that required by the federal government is terrible.                          
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Ms. Kreitzer if, in her work with businesses             
 and the public on SB 69, she heard from anyone that the reporting             
 requirements were excessive.                                                  
 MS. KREITZER replied she never received any feedback from all the             
 companies and organizations she worked with in developing this                
 legislation indicating that the reporting requirements were                   
 Number 251                                                                    
 SENATOR FRANK stated he would like to make sure the little guys can           
 handle the requirements.                                                      
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded that all that is being done, is to make it           
 a little bit easier.                                                          
 SENATOR FRANK and SENATOR TAYLOR both expressed the thought that              
 maybe it could be improved a great deal, rather than a little bit.            
 SENATOR FRANK asked why we wouldn't lower the requirement to the              
 federal standards.  We do nothing but complain around here about              
 the fact that we're going further than the feds.                              
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Ms. Kreitzer if there is any reason why that             
 shouldn't be changed.                                                         
 MS. KREITZER responded that the only reason not to change it would            
 be the Municipality of Anchorage's position.                                  
 SENATOR TAYLOR stated he is concerned that only big companies have            
 expressed approval.  He noted an example where big companies                  
 approved of a program (Leaking Underground Storage Tank Program),             
 and the program ended up putting small businesses out of business.            
 Senator Taylor stated no one is enforcing the law, so why would we            
 want to make it better.                                                       
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN noted that paragraph (4) gives municipalities the              
 option of requiring smaller quantities to be reported.                        
 SENATOR LINCOLN thinks the committee is going nowhere really fast.            
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated he had planned to be further along.                     
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the chairman was planning to move the bill           
 from committee today.                                                         
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded he had been.                                         
 SENATOR LINCOLN commented maybe it wasn't such a bad idea to have             
 a subcommittee.                                                               
 SENATOR FRANK asked if the bill could just be amended to 10,000;              
 where would the amendment go?                                                 
 MS. KREITZER responded the amendment would go on page 3, line 6.              
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if that is the only amount where we have                 
 higher requirements than the federal...500 to 10,000.                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to amend SB 69 by changing the number            
 500 to the number 10,000 on page 3, line 6.                                   
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked what materials, other than those described in            
 Section 4, (c)(1) that consists of.  Is there a list of those                 
 MS. KREITZER replied there is a definition under the definitions              
 section.  She says they are huge lists.                                       
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Ms. Kreitzer if she knows of any reason the              
 amendment should not be adopted.                                              
 MS. KREITZER responded that a municipality would still have the               
 option of lowering the amount that must be reported.                          
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there was any objection to the amendment.             
 Hearing none, the chairman stated the amendment had been adopted.             
 The chairman asked if there was further discussion.                           
 SENATOR LINCOLN noted that line 10 specified 500 pounds also.                 
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN informed Senator Lincoln that number is a federal              
 requirement.  The only number that was different from the federal             
 requirement has been changed.                                                 
 [It is clarified that the rest of the requirements are federal                
 requirements, other than the requirement for compressed gasses,               
 which is a requirement of the Municipality of Anchorage.  Ms.                 
 Kreitzer does not believe there is a federal requirement on                   
 compressed gasses.]                                                           
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks he has 200 cubic feet of compressed gas at              
 his house.                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks he has it here.                                       
 SENATOR TAYLOR responded, yes, but he can't keep it compressed.  He           
 commented the committee is losing people.  Senator Taylor stated he           
 would like to know what the federal requirement is on that, if any.           
 MS. KREITZER does not believe there is a requirement on that.                 
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks, if this will be applied statewide, paragraph           
 (6) on page 3 should be deleted.  If Anchorage wants to impose it,            
 they are still free to do so.                                                 
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked the fire marshal if he had a comment on that.            
 FIRE MARSHAL WEGER responded, so far as he is aware, that language            
 is not a federal requirement.                                                 
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN has a question with paragraph (4).  That language              
 just specifies that municipalities can require the reporting of               
 lower quantities, not other substances.                                       
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks it would still be within a municipality's               
 authority to require another substance to be reported, even if not            
 in the bill.                                                                  
 [That situation is compared to Article 10 of the U.S.                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR clarified that he suggested deleting paragraph (6)             
 on page 3 as motion to amend SB 69.                                           
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there was any objection to that amendment             
 (amendment #2).  Hearing none, the chairman stated amendment #2 had           
 been adopted.                                                                 
 SENATOR HALFORD commented that if the committee cut one more line,            
 they could shorten the bill to four pages.                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR replied he was looking.                                        
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN said they didn't want to take out the repealer line.           
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked the fire marshal if there are other items in             
 SB 69 that are not federal requirements.                                      
 FIRE MARSHAL WEGER responded there are none that he's aware of.               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked the fire marshal if there are any federal                
 requirements that are less stringent than those in SB 69.                     
 FIRE MARSHAL WEGER replied, no.                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked the fire marshal if he thought the bill had              
 been pretty well cleaned up.                                                  
 FIRE MARSHAL WEGER responded, yes.                                            
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there was further committee discussion.               
 Number 055                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to discharge SB 69 from the Senate               
 Resources Committee with individual recommendations.                          
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, stated SB 69 was discharged             
 from committee with individual recommendations.                               
 SRES - 3/27/95                                                                
         SJR 20 COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT FISHING QUOTAS                         
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up SJR 20 as the next order of business                
 before the Senate Resources Committee.  The chairman called the               
 first witness.                                                                
 KARL OHLS, Executive Director, Western Alaska Fisheries Development           
 Association, testifying from Anchorage, stated he supports SJR 20.            
 Mr. Ohls stated CDQ groups are interested in a set-aside of CDQ's             
 for all species, so that the groups will not be dependent upon                
 revenue from a single species.  This resolution reflects that goal.           
 TAPE 95-29, SIDE A                                                            
 SENATOR TAYLOR expressed surprise at the addition of crab, and                
 asked Mr. Ohls to comment on that.                                            
 MR. OHLS responded, "The North Pacific Fisheries Management Council           
 (NPFMC) is working on a comprehensive rationalization [?] plan                
 which will become the allocation plan for all species under their             
 management, which includes the Bering Sea crab resource, the                  
 Pacific cod resource, the yellowfin sole,...so crab is a part of              
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Ohls if he is correct in believing that              
 the CDQ allocation is somewhat controversial.                                 
 MR. OHLS replied, "Only as much as the current program would be               
 SENATOR HOFFMAN asked, "On the crab issue, wasn't it the Alaskan              
 Crab Association that offered an allocation last year to start at             
 MR. OHLS responded that the council has been working for some time            
 of deciding allocation.  Somewhere down the road they are going to            
 get to allocations of all these different species.  Licenses,                 
 CDQ's, IFQ's, whatever is appropriate.  Members of the industry are           
 talking with each other about what they'd like to see.  Last year,            
 the Alaska Crab Coalition broached the subject of a 3% crab                   
 allocation in the Bering Sea for CDQ's, with a three-year time                
 limit on it.                                                                  
 Number 080                                                                    
 KIM METCALFE HELMAR, Special Assistant, Department of Community &             
 Regional Affairs, stated the administration supports SJR 20.  Ms.             
 Helmar reads a written statement, giving statistics on unemployment           
 and income levels before and after implementation of the CDQ                  
 program in the region affected by the program.  Both income and               
 employment levels rose after implementation of the CDQ program.               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked why the administration opposes IFQ's.                    
 MS. METCALFE HELMAR responded she could not answer that question.             
 Number 116                                                                    
 SENATOR HOFFMAN asked Ms. Metcalfe Helmar if she could speak on the           
 fiscal note.                                                                  
 [No answer is discernable on the recording.]                                  
 SENATOR TAYLOR commented that the resolution appears to ask the               
 federal government to make an allocation decision regarding a state           
 Number 132                                                                    
 DAVID BENTON, Acting Deputy Commissioner, Department of Fish &                
 Game, stated he has worked for both the Hickel administration and             
 the Knowles administration, and both administrations have strongly            
 supported the CDQ program.  He urged support of SJR 20.  In regards           
 to Senator Taylor's question, Mr. Benton responded that, by and               
 large, these are resources that are not in state waters.  The vast          
 bulk of the Bering Sea crab resource is in federal waters.  In the            
 Gulf of Alaska, it is a different situation all together, and                 
 Senator Taylor's concern would be valid.                                      
 SENATOR TAYLOR commented he has always supported CDQ's, but he is             
 fearful that sooner or later they will end up pitting one community           
 against another.  He finds the current IFQ's violative of our                 
 state's rights.  Governor Knowles promised to file a lawsuit on               
 IFQ's and promised to oppose IFQ's, yet now he is not doing that.             
 Senator Taylor believes 70% of IFQ's are owned by people in                   
 Seattle.  That is the ownership of fish.  He supports the concept             
 of SJR 20, but he cannot support the concept of allowing the                  
 federal government to make allocation of fish from state waters.              
 MR. BENTON responded he agrees with Senator Taylor wholeheartedly,            
 and he thinks the governor would agree as well.  The governor                 
 really struggled with the decision regarding joining the Alliance             
 Against IFQs' lawsuit on halibut and sablefish.  The governor does            
 support setting aside a percentage of the quota for entry-level               
 fisheries.  Neither former Governor Hickel nor Governor Knowles is            
 supportive of bringing CDQ's into the Gulf of Alaska, for the very            
 reasons listed by Senator Taylor.  We have considered and are                 
 trying to develop some other programs for the gulf that would allow           
 for small-boat fisheries in coastal communities and entry-level               
 fisheries.  Mr. Benton stated he presently represents the state on            
 the NPFMC.                                                                    
 Number 274                                                                    
 SENATOR HALFORD stated he appreciated the governor's testimony at             
 the hearing in Anchorage, and agreed with the general direction.              
 He wondered if the committee should add a further resolve to SJR
 20, in effect stating that if there are new IFQ allocations                   
 considered, that at least x% be considered in CDQ's and entry               
 provisions.  That supports what U.S. Senator Stevens and the                  
 governor are trying to accomplish.  He agrees with the comments               
 about the gulf too.  Senator Halford stated he would trade all the            
 IFQ's in the Bering Sea for CDQ's.                                            
 SENATOR TAYLOR commented that his primary concern was in trying to            
 maintain some level of consistency.  The management of mammals was            
 taken away from the state in 1978; ADF&G no longer manages seals,             
 which he used to hunt and eat.  ADF&G no longer manages sea lions,            
 whales, or walrus.                                                            
 SENATOR HALFORD noted that management of those mammals was actually           
 taken over by the federal government in 1973.                                 
 SENATOR TAYLOR added that now the state has lost management control           
 of sablefish, and will possibly lose control of all groundfish and            
 crab.  He does not think the state should voluntarily forfeit its'            
 right to allocation.                                                          
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN added he would not support that either, and would              
 certainly be willing to amend SJR 20 to accommodate that concern.             
 He doesn't think Senator Hoffman would be opposed to that type of             
 SENATOR HALFORD expressed agreement with Senator Taylor on the                
 inside allocation issues.  However, he is not above helping any               
 segment of Alaska's population get anything it can from the                   
 outside.  He would like to make them all CDQ's.                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR commented he doesn't have any problem with the                 
 Machiavellian aspect of it, he would probably do it too.  It's just           
 that he would like to have it done by us, not done to us.                     
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated he would like to hold SJR 20 over to work out           
 something.  He asked Mr. Benton to help with that.  The chairman              
 noted he would like to hear the resolution again on April 5th.                
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourned the Senate Resources Committee meeting at            
 5:38 p.m.                                                                     

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