Legislature(1997 - 1998)
05/01/1998 03:40 PM JUD
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE May 1, 1998 3:40 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Robin Taylor, Chairman Senator Drue Pearce, Vice-Chairman Senator Mike Miller Senator Sean Parnell Senator Johnny Ellis MEMBERS ABSENT All members present COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE BILL NO. 312 "An Act relating to animals, to food, to pest control, and to the Alaska Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED SB 312 OUT OF COMMITTEE SENATE BILL NO. 355 "An Act relating to the provision of electric utility service." - HEARD AND HELD CS FOR HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 34(L&C) am Establishing a Joint Committee on Electric Utility Restructuring. - MOVED CSHCR 34(L&C) am OUT OF COMMITTEE SENATE BILL NO. 138 "An Act relating to regulation of alcoholic beverages; relating to alcoholic beverage licenses and to regulation of alcoholic beverage licensees; relating to liability of a person who provides alcoholic beverages; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED CSSB 138(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 406(FIN) am(efd fld) "An Act authorizing the Board of Fisheries and the Board of Game to identify fish and game that are taken for subsistence and to identify subsistence and nonsubsistence areas; relating to the establishment of preferences for and to regulation of subsistence fishing and hunting; relating to advisory committees." - HEARD AND HELD CONFIRMATION HEARINGS: Alcoholic Beverage Control Board Judicial Conduct PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION SB 312 - See Labor and Commerce minutes dated 3/10/98 and 4/7/98. SB 355 - See Labor and Commerce Committee minutes dated 4/21/98. HCR 34 - No previous action to record. SB 138 - No previous action to record. HB 406 - See Judiciary minutes dated 4/25/98. WITNESS REGISTER Ms. Beth Hagevig Staff to Senator Gary Wilken State Capitol Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SB 312 Ms. Janice Adair Director, Enviornmental Health Department of Enviornmental Conservation 555 Cordova Street Anchorage, AK 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 312 Mr. Eric Yula Executive Director Alaska Rural Electric Cooperative Association 703 West Tudor Road Anchorage, AK POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34 Mr. Don Edwards Chugach Electric 5601 Minnesota Drive Anchorage, AK POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 355 Mr. Dave Carlson City of Petersburg P.O. Box 1232 Petersburg, AK 99833 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34 Mr. Rick Eckert Homer Electric 3977 Lake Street Homer, AK 99603 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34 Mr. Thomas Stahr 167 W. Cityview Homer, AK 99603 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34 Mr. Charles Walls President Alaska Village Electric Cooperative 4831 Eagle Street Anchorage, AK 99503 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34 Ms. MaryAnn Pease Aurora Power POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 355 Ms. Shirley Armstrong Staff to the House Labor and Commerce Committee State Capitol Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HCR 34 Ms. Myra Kohler General Manager Anchorage Municipal Light and Power 1200 East 1st Avenue Anchorage, AK 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HCR 34 Mr. Robert Wilkinson Copper Vallley Electric Association P.O. Box 45 Glenallen, AK 99588 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34 Mr. Ron Defore Americans For Responsible Alcohol Access Emergency Nurses Association Washington, D.C. POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Mr. J. Ross Runfola Special Counsel New York State Attorney New York, NY POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Ms. Jan Wrentmore Owner Red Onion Saloon Skagway, AK 99840 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Mr. Chris Anderson Owner Glacier Brew House Anchorage, AK POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Mr. Doug Griffin Alcoholic Beverage Control Board 550 West 7th #350 Anchorage, AK 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 138 Mr. Bob Bailey Alaska Distributors P.O. Box 91598 Anchorage, AK 99515 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 138 Mr. Richard Sassara Railway Brewing Company 1964 Loussac Anchorage, AK 99517 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Mr. Gary Klopfer Owner Snow Goose Restaurant 717 West 3rd Anchorage, AK 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Ms. Ann Wilkas Moose's Tooth 3400 Old Seward Highway Anchorage, AK 99503 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Mr. Don Grasse K&L Distributors 4771 Southpark Bluff Anchorage, AK 99518 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138 Mr. Jim Jansen President Lynden Companies Alaskans Together 1029 West 3rd Anchorage, AK 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406 Mr. Dick Bishop Vice President Alaska Outdoor Council Anchorage, AK POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406 Mr. Donald Westlund P.O. Box 871 Ward Cove, AK 99928 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406 Mr. Pete Amundson 918 Jackson Street Ketchikan, AK 99901 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406 Ms. Kay Andrew P.O. Box 7211 Ketchikan, AK 99901 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406 Mr. Robert Bosworth Deputy Commissioner Alaska Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, AK 99802-5526 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406 Mr. Steve White Assistant District Attorney Department of Law P.O. Box 110300 Juneau, AK 99811-0300 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-36, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN ROBIN TAYLOR called the Judiciary Committee meeting to order at 3:40 p.m. and apologized for the delay. MS. BETH HAGEVIG, staff to Senator Wilken presented SB 312. MS. HAGEVIG said this bill consolidates existing requirements for food production and service and clears up obsolete and contradictory provisions now existing in statute. MS. HAGEVIG explained that SB 312 will provide for more efficient administration of the food laws in Alaska. SENATOR ELLIS asked if the bill had any connection to food irradiation and MS. HAGEVIG answered it did not. MS. JANICE ADAIR, Director of Environmental Health for the Department of Environmental Conservation, reiterated the comments of MS. HAGEVIG and expressed that the Department supports the bill. Number 075 SENATOR MILLER moved SB 312 out of committee with individual recommendations. Without objection, the bill was moved. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced HCR 34 and SB 355 as the next order of business. SB 355 - COMPETITIVE RETAIL SALES ELEC. POWER CSCR 34(L&C) - JT COM ON ELEC UTILITY RESTRUCTURING MR. ERIC YULA, Executive Director of the Alaska Rural Electric Cooperative Association, testified to his organizations strong support for HCR 34. MR. YULA expressed opposition to SB 355, primarily because of his preference for the process set forth in HCR 34. MR. YULA noted that there are several other pieces of legislation dealing with deregulation pending in this Legislature and remarked they might all be better rolled into the subcommittee study proposed in HCR 34. Number 162 MR. YULA explained that Alaska is in a unique position in relation to the complex issue of deregulation and encouraged the passage of HCR 34. Number 171 MR. DON EDWARDS, representing Chugach Electric, testified that SB 355 was a simple bill, intended only to apply to large, dense systems such as Chugach and the ML&P system. He suggested the bill might be amended to exclude other systems that could accidentally be included. MR. EDWARDS said the bill would introduce competition to larger systems, but would have no impact outside of Anchorage. Number 200 MR. EDWARDS testified that poll results have shown customer support for competition and cited a study by the Brookings Institute which concluded that with competition, customers benefit from better service and reliability. MR. EDWARDS stated that other utilities oppose choice, but repeated that the legislation will not apply to anyone outside Anchorage. Number 285 MR. EDWARDS concluded his testimony by urging the committee to move SB 355. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced the Confirmation Hearing of MS. TONI JACKSON to the Alcohol Control Board would be taken up at this time. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted the committee had MS. JACKSON'S resume. SENATOR MILLER moved that MS. JACKSON'S name be forwarded to the full body. Without objection, it was so ordered. Number 335 MR. DAVE CARLSON, past mayor of Petersburg, testified his strong support for HCR 34 and strong opposition to SB 355. He requested careful consideration of restructuring and deregulation, as it is a complex issue. Number 369 MR. RICK EKHERT, manager of finance for Homer Electric, spoke from Homer, opposing SB 355 and supporting HCR 34. MR. THOMAS STAR, a ratepayer from Homer, also opposed SB 355 and supported HCR 34, saying SB 355 could result in wage increases by predatory utilities. MR. WALTER SAP, President of the Board of Directors of the Kodiak Electric Association, testified in support of HCR 34 and in opposition to SB 355. MR. SAP stated that the issue is complex and is best dealt with through the body that would be established under HCR 34. Number 411 MR. CHARLES WALLS, President of the Alaska Village Electric Cooperative, suggested that deregulation is not something to rush into. He stated support for HCR 34 and opposed SB 355. MS. MARY ANN PEASE, representing Aurora Power, supported SB 355, citing a need for customer choice and the increased efficiency competition brings. MS. PEASE remarked that the current system has a fundamental flaw: no incentive to be cost efficient. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked MS. PEASE if she supported the amendment referred to and MS. PEASE replied she does. Number 463 MS. SHIRLEY ARMSTRONG, Staff to the House Labor and Commerce Committee, reported that the Labor and Commerce Committee has worked on this issue for many years and supports HCR 34. MS. MYRA KOHLER, General Manager of Anchorage Municipal Light and Power, stated that retail competition in this arena would be unprecedented. She reiterated the idea that this is a hugely complex issue that includes concerns over liability, standards and reliability, universal costs and transmission. MS. KOHLER suggested that these issues should all be decided before deregulation takes place. MR. ROBERT WILKINSON, representing the Copper Valley Electric Association, opposed SB 355 and urged the committee's support of HCR 34. Number 556 SENATOR MILLER moved HCR 34 out of committee with individual recommendations. Without objection, it was so ordered. SENATOR PEARCE suggested that the Energy Council has been studying deregulation and gas restructuring for a number of years and has a great deal of knowledge that might be put to use when enacting HCR 34. Number 575 SB 138 - REGULATION OF ALCOHOL MR. RON DEFORE, representing the Americans for Responsible Alcohol Access and the Emergency Nurses Associations, expressed concern about toll free alcohol sales over the Internet. TAPE 98-36 SIDE B Number 001 MR. DEFORE said these Internet sales represent a rapidly expanding underground economy that should be prevented. MR. DEFORE remarked that other states have criminalized this type of sale of alcoholic beverages and suggested Alaska should join them. MR. DEFORE clarified that not only fine wines are available over the Internet, but cheap beer and hard liquor are also available and can be delivered overnight. MR. DEFORE did not oppose consumer access to these products, if underage purchase can be controlled. He said there is a process under development now where people could order their favorite products and have them delivered to a local retailer, through a national locator system. SENATOR PEARCE asked if the language before them would affect auction sales of wine and spirits. MR. DEFORE replied he could not comment specifically on that, but reiterated that he opposed any direct shipment of alcohol to a person's doorstep, regardless of the manner of purchase. MR. J. ROSS RANFOLO, Special Counsel to the New York State Attorney General, testified in support of the amendment to SB 138, also due to the possibility of underage purchase and consumption of alcohol. Number 500 MR. RANFOLO reported to the committee the results of an investigation of some Internet companies: 14 out of 14 illegal liquor sales and shipments to underage buyers without any type of age verification. MR. RANFOLO added that some deliveries of alcohol were also made to dry towns, subverting the will of the local electorate. He cited greed and a desire to escape state tax as the motive behind much Internet alcohol marketing. MR. RANFOLO concluded by urging the adoption of the amendment. MS. JAN WRENTMORE, owner of the Red Onion Saloon in Skagway, supported the amendment. MR. CHRIS ANDERSON, co-owner of the Glacier Brew House in Anchorage, said the failure of this bill's passage has been a real problem and is hampering the growth of his business. MR. ANDERSON also expressed concern about losing his ability to provide entertainment to his patrons and to sell "growlers" - half gallon bottles of beer he believes his establishment sells responsibly. MR. ANDERSON supported passage of the bill, with the proposed amendments and the inclusion of the ability to sell growlers. SENATOR PEARCE noted that the original version of the bill was introduced at the request of the Alcohol Beverage Control Board. MR. ANDERSON commented that the bill represented a reasonable consensus achieved between the board and industry representatives. SENATOR PEARCE asked what section precluded the sale of growlers and MR. ANDERSON pointed out page three, section four, line 21. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the Glacier Brewpub holds a retail licence and MR. ANDERSON replied he did not. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR concluded that may be the problem. He surmised this was a question of competition brought up by the unique situation and licenses of brewpubs. Number 255 SENATOR ELLIS moved Amendment #1, labeled E-3. There was an objection from SENATOR PEARCE who explained the amendment also prohibited Internet sale and auction sales as well. SENATOR PEARCE said there was no concern about these issues from Alaska Law enforcement. SENATOR ELLIS suggested the committee might modify the amendment to alleviate SENATOR PEARCE's concern and prevent the possibility of underage sale. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR suggested the committee take testimony from the ABC Board to clarify the issue. MR. DOUG GRIFFIN, representing the ABC Board, said the amendment before them was not submitted by the Board. MR. GRIFFIN reviewed SB 138, identifying sections 1, 2, 3, 8, 10, 11, 13 and 16 as housekeeping measures designed to deal with limited liability companies (LLC). Number 150 MR. GRIFFIN stated that concerns about bootlegger liability have already been addressed in a bill passed in 1997 and section 15 of the bill is redundant and may be removed. MR. GRIFFIN remarked that the bill does provide for limited delivery of gift baskets containing alcohol by package stores. Number 121 MR. BOB BAILEY from Alaska Distributors testified from Anchorage in support of SB 138, especially the provision prohibiting direct shipping. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if this amendment was offered on MR. BAILEY's behalf and MR. BAILEY replied it was a consensus among wholesalers, retailers and concerned citizens. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if, under this provision, SENATOR PEARCE would be able to order products not available in state and have them shipped to her. MR. BAILEY stated the amendment as written is a complete ban on shipping but he feels the positive effects of the amendment outweigh the negative effects. Number 95 MR. RICHARD SASSARU, testified from Anchorage on behalf of Railway Brewery Company in favor of SB 138 generally but specifically opposed the limitation on the number of gallons that a brewpub can produce, the elimination of growlers, and the prohibition on entertainment. MR. SASSARU concluded by changing his support of the bill to opposition, saying he preferred the status quo until these problems could be worked out. MR. GARY KLOPFER, owner of the Snow Goose Restaurant, apologized to all parties involved, saying he and his partner started the brewpub fracas in the first place. TAPE 98-37, SIDE A Number 001 MR. KLOPFER commented that he spent more than two million dollars on his establishment and although he runs a pub, more than 75% of his sales are food. He feels people are biased against brewpubs and if the clause prohibiting entertainment was passed in SB 138, his establishment would no longer be able to be host to the Fur Rendezvous "Melodrama." MR. KLOPFER also repeated the idea that growlers are a very valuable marketing tool. He concluded that he did not support the bill in its present form. MS. ANN WILKAS, representing the Moose's Tooth Brewing Company and the Moose's Tooth Pub and Pizzeria opposed SB 138 and the amendments proposed. MS. WILKAS agreed with previous testimony from Anchorage breweries saying this bill needs work. MS. WILKAS recommended the committee not pass SB 138. Number 165 MR. DON GRASSE, General Manager of KML Distributors, clarified that the proposed amendment would not allow for catalog or auction sales of fine wines. MR. GRASSE recognized this as a problem. SENATOR ELLIS interjected that his primary concern was shipment of alcoholic beverages to underage people. SENATOR ELLIS added he would be happy to make conceptual changes to the Amendment to accommodate SENATOR PEARCE's ideas. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR affirmed that it is already illegal to sell, deliver or convey alcohol to minors and the problem exists with enforcement. Number 240 SENATOR ELLIS withdrew Amendment #1. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR declared Amendment #2 would not be offered. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR brought up Amendment #3, which would change the number of dispensary licenses in a community by limiting the award of new licences to facilities with 35 rooms. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked Doug Griffin for comments on this amendment. MR. GRIFFIN relied that the board had no official position on this issue but is sensitive to the intent behind it. SENATOR PEARCE offered Amendment #3. Without objection, the amendment was adopted. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR addressed Amendment #4 as the next order of business. Number 350 SENATOR ELLIS explained that this amendment (#4) is, in the advice of the drafter, the cleanest way to extend the life of existing brewpubs by canceling the old brewpub arrangement and instituting a new one. SENATOR ELLIS stated that amendment #4 is the only way the Moose's Tooth can stay in business. MR. GRIFFIN added that the Moose's Tooth is in a unique situation and the board's proposal does not allow for them. MR. GRIFFIN remarked that the board was uncomfortable with broad language that grandfathers in existing businesses. He said as the brewpub situation exists, brewpubs (restaurant/breweries) can bottle and sell their beer via wholesalers, but they are limited to 75,000 gallons unless they receive permission from the board to exceed that cap. Number 494 SENATOR ELLIS moved Amendment #4 and without objection, the amendment was adopted. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR offered Amendment #1 and on a roll call vote of three yeas and two nays the amendment was adopted. SENATOR ELLIS proposed a conceptual amendment (Amendment #5) to allow the continuation of the sale of growlers. Without objection, it was so ordered. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR also proposed (Amendment #6) to delete all of section 15, which has been made redundant by a bill passed by Representative Ivan Ivan in 1997. Without objection, Amendment #6 was adopted. SENATOR ELLIS moved SB 138 out of committee with individual recommendations. Without objection, it was so ordered. HB 406 - SUBSISTENCE USES OF FISH AND GAME MR. JIM JANSEN, President of the Lynden Companies and representing Alaskans Together, spoke in support of doing whatever necessary to avert a federal takeover. MR. JANSEN voiced his opinion that we have one opportunity to keep the feds out and we need to take it. MR. JANSEN declared a federal takeover would negatively affect all resource-based industries in the state and federal management of fish and game would be unacceptable. TAPE 98-37, SIDE B Number 560 CHAIRMAN TAYLOR questioned MR. JANSEN about his testimony, asking what benefit would be derived from passing a constitutional amendment to comply with the federal law. MR. JANSEN said state management would allow Alaskans to keep their concerns and problems within the state. MR. DICK BISHOP, representing the Alaska Outdoor Council, testified to his organization's support of the concepts within HB 406. MR. BISHOP suggested that with some amendments, the bill could improve management of subsistence uses of fish and game under state law. MR. BISHOP indicated relating an individual priority to the reliance on food is the right way to go. He said the Outdoor Council has maintained that a subsistence priority in law is not necessary to properly provide for subsistence uses, but if a priority is to remain in law, it should be based on "how you live, not where you live." MR. BISHOP agreed that the ability to take fish and game for food is a basic human right, as enunciated by the Alaska Native subsistence summit and the Republican Party. MR. BISHOP said the Alaska Supreme Court had also validated this idea in their decision that said the common use of fish and game to meet the basic necessities of life is a "highly important interest, running to each person in the state." MR. BISHOP asked how anyone can advocate discrimination against others if we all agree that subsistence is a basic human right. He recounted testimony on the House floor by members who pointed out that the Alaska Constitution protects against discrimination. He quoted Representative Ethan Berkowitz who spoke of the sanctity of the Constitution and its moral imperative to treat all Alaskans as Alaskans. MR. BISHOP also recalled members extolling the virtue of maintaining Alaska's sovereignty. MR. BISHOP said HB 406 avoids moral and civil rights travesties by preserving the emphasis on the importance of Alaskans to maintain the ability to harvest fish and game regardless of where they live. He suggested this value is paramount and cuts across cultural, ethnic, racial and geographic lines. MR. BISHOP said the criticism that HB 406 does not comply with ANILCA is "just so much rhetoric." MR. BISHOP stated ANILCA is not a standard to aspire to; he said it institutionalizes discrimination among Alaskans, compromises sound fish and game management and abrogates the state's rights. MR. BISHOP explained that conforming to ANILCA, especially as it was amended last Fall, would leave the state without a legal leg to stand on in defending its rights afforded by statehood. MR. BISHOP argued the priority demanded by ANILCA is not triggered by a shortage and would be there all the time, mandating the elimination of other uses should it be necessary to accommodate customary and traditional subsistence uses. MR. BISHOP also reported that the need for food is not the standard in ANILCA, and the sale and barter of food taken for subsistence is protected in ANILCA. If the state agrees to ANILCA, the federal courts will enforce their interpretation of that law and the manner in which the state administers it. This would not amount to the state regaining management, according to MR. BISHOP. MR. BISHOP concluded that the Outdoor Council recommends that the legislature stick to the principles in HB 406, consider some refinements to the bill, and go on to seek the necessary changes to ANILCA, where the real problem lies. SENATOR WARD asked MR. BISHOP what he thinks will happen if the state does not change its Constitution. MR. BISHOP replied that will depend on what the legislature does between now and then and how the Congressional delegation and the Secretary of the Interior respond to it. MR. BISHOP added if we put forward a good bill, we will have a good argument toward changes in ANILCA. MR. BISHOP said if nothing changes, he has no doubt the feds will begin propagating their own regulations on fish and game. MR. BISHOP also answered CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's question about the difference between state or federal management under ANILCA. He said there really is no difference and he would characterize it as "shot or hung." Under federal management, we will have a "zip code rural priority" statewide. This will be the same under the state plan, according to MR. BISHOP. He went on to illustrate how state and federal management will amount to essentially the same thing. He added that federal court enforcement will be the last word in all these cases. MR. BISHOP said a federal takeover will leave us with unresolved legal questions surrounding fish and game management and the end of Alaska's constitutional protection of common use and equal access to fish and game uses. MR. BISHOP said the state would also cede any future arguments on these issues. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR commented that he has been asking these same questions for years and a big part of his frustration is the idea people have that the state will be able to retain some sort of management rights and make certain amendments to ANILCA. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said his reading of the bill shows we won't be able to do anything. SENATOR WARD said this is a very important issue to him and he is bothered by how some people within the media and government treat it. He reiterated that Senator Murkowski has said he will begin hearings on this issue as soon as we can present him with an "Alaskan solution." SENATOR WARD noted this solution does not have to be a constitutional amendment, and we don't have to buy into that rhetoric. He concluded by saying he truly believes that if we do not come up with an Alaskan solution, "the commercial fishing industry as we know it in Alaska will be gone." CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said if the state does not surrender to the federal mandate and comply with ANILCA, wouldn't we retain management of fish and game on state and private lands, more than 150 million acres. MR. BISHOP replied this is correct and the federal government was authorized to manage for subsistence only on federal lands, however, the rules recently proposed would extend this authority to make regulations off federal lands if necessary to protect the subsistence priority. MR. BISHOP said this authority, if held up under review, would impinge on the authority of the state. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR advised, "if the state surrenders its sovereignty, complies with the federal law, amends its constitution, then we've handed over all of the rest of the statehood lands and all of the private lands in the state - we've handed those over to be regulated under the federal standard and available to the federal courts for oversight." So in fact, if we do not comply with the Babbitt-Knowles plan we at least retain our rights on our state and private lands, according to CHAIRMAN TAYLOR. MR. BISHOP said that is correct, and that is a good additional comparison to make. Number 278 MR. DONALD WESTLUND, testifying from Ketchikan, agreed with SENATOR WARD, saying we should not give away any sovereign rights or we risk becoming a territory again. MR. WESTLUND read a summary from a document entitled "An Examination of Federal Authority to Manage Fish and Game in Alaska". MR. WESTLUND concluded that the Legislature should not pass a constitutional amendment regarding subsistence on the basis of the argument that the state, as a trustee, may not appropriate a trust asset to one class of citizens to the exclusion of others. Number 135 CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked MR. WESTLUND if he supports the lawsuit filed by the Legislative Council. MR. WESTLUND indicated he does. MR. PETE AMUNDSON testified from Ketchikan and urged the committee not to compromise on the subsistence issue and create another Washington D.C. in Alaska. MR. AMUNDSON informed the committee he did not wish to be classed nor to be included in anything not allowed by the State Constitution. MS. KAY ANDREW agreed with the previous speaker and encouraged the committee to enforce the position taken by Mr. Ralph Seekins through support of the Legislative Council's lawsuit. TAPE 98-38, SIDE A Number 001 MR. ROB BOSWORTH, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), outlined problems the department sees with HB 406. First, the bill will not avert a federal takeover. Second, HB 406 will not protect subsistence uses in Alaska, as the standard for a non-subsistence economy requires a cash based economy, present in many rural areas. For example, under this bill Bristol Bay and the North Slope would not be considered subsistence areas. Third, MR. BOSWORTH said HB 406 would be enormously costly and nearly impossible for ADF&G to manage. MR. BOSWORTH concluded that the concept of identifying users dependent on subsistence is attractive but unworkable. Number 100 CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked MR. BOSWORTH how subsistence could be structured without violating Alaska's Constitution. MR. BOSWORTH replied that he is working with his fourth Governor on this issue and there really is nothing new under the sun. He has concluded that the rural distinction works. Number 153 SENATOR WARD remarked that he has a problem with the zip code approach which will take hunting and fishing rights from one half of Alaska natives. MR. BOSWORTH responded that access would be impaired only in times of shortage. SENATOR WARD stated that a rural preference would still be unfair to people like him, around whom Anchorage grew up; he suggested the Governor should instead pursue the lawsuit filed by the Legislative Council. Number 219 MR. BOSWORTH conceded that the rural preference plan is imperfect. The plan is both over inclusive and under inclusive in regard to people who should receive subsistence rights in times of shortage. He maintained that the plan is the best compromise. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if there wasn't a third plan, allowing the feds to take over federal lands and leaving state managers to manage state and private lands. MR. BOSWORTH agreed this was possible with some qualifications. Number 347 CHAIRMAN TAYLOR cited some examples in which federal regulations would supersede state management even if Alaska did change the constitution. MR. BOSWORTH remarked that a state regional council, much like the federal regional council, would be used under the task force proposal. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR argued that any challenges to the state board would be taken to a federal judge. MR. BOSWORTH insisted that management by the state's expert biologists could be supported in court and is preferable to management from outside. Number 411 CHAIRMAN TAYLOR thanked MR. BOSWORTH for his help and invited his further input on amending HB 406. MR. STEVE WHITE, Assistant District Attorney for the Department of Law, testified that the vast majority of subsistence challenges stay in state court. MR. WHITE also observed that the amendments proposed bring ANILCA closer to state law and in fact benefit Alaska. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR expressed his concern for the sustainability of the resource. MR. WHITE said that the state board is a multi-user board and will be able to manage for multiple use. He feared the federal government may not have the concern nor the resources to manage for multiple use. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR interjected that the feds only have the authority to manage for subsistence and MR. WHITE replied that is true but this management will also affect other uses. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR countered that if the last person up the stream attempting to get at the resource is unsatisfied, they can go to federal court and the court will regulate all other users in an attempt to satisfy that one person. MR. WHITE concluded that he has confidence in state management and fears federal management. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR expressed his interest in working further on HB 406. He asked MR. WHITE for his continued help. TAPE 98-38, SIDE B Number 001 CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if there was anyone else wishing to testify on HB 406. Hearing none, CHAIRMAN TAYLOR adjourned the meeting at 7:30 p.m.