Legislature(1997 - 1998)

03/04/1998 01:35 PM Senate JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
              SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE                                       
                    March 4, 1998                                              
                      1:35 p.m.                                                
                                                                               
                                                                               
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                
                                                                               
Senator Robin Taylor, Chairman                                                 
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice-Chairman                                             
Senator Mike Miller                                                            
Senator Sean Parnell                                                           
Senator Johnny Ellis                                                           
                                                                               
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                 
                                                                               
 All members present.                                                          
                                                                               
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                             
                                                                               
SENATE CS FOR CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 170(HES)                                   
"An Act relating to interference with the rights of physically and             
mentally challenged persons; and relating to service animals during            
their pre-training and training period."                                       
                                                                               
     - SCS FOR CS FOR HOUSE BILL 170(JUD) MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE               
                                                                               
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 7(JUD)                                                   
"An Act authorizing establishment of community dispute resolution              
centers to foster the resolution of disputes between juvenile                  
offenders and their victims, and providing immunity from civil                 
suits for youth courts and for members of the boards of directors,             
employees, volunteers, and members of youth courts."                           
                                                                               
     - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                 
                                                                               
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION                                               
                                                                               
HB 170 - See Senate HESS committee minutes dated 1/23/98 & 2/4/98.             
                                                                               
HB   7 - See Senate Judiciary minutes dated 2/4/98.                            
                                                                               
WITNESS REGISTER                                                               
                                                                               
Representative Tom Brice                                                       
State Capitol                                                                  
Juneau, Ak 99801-1182                                                          
   POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SCS CSHB 170(HESS)                            
                                                                               
Ms. Ruby Schmidtbauer                                                          
PO Box 306                                                                     
Ninilchik, Ak 99639                                                            
   POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170                                     
                                                                               
Ms. Linda Athons                                                               
34824 K-Beach Rd.                                                              
Soldotna, Ak 99669                                                             
   POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170                                     
                                                                               
Ms. Helen Craig                                                                
613 Degroff St.                                                                
Sitka, Ak 99835                                                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170                                     
                                                                               
Mr. William Craig                                                              
613 Degroff St.                                                                
Sitka, Ak 99835                                                                
   POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170                                     
                                                                               
Mr. Patrick Reinhart                                                           
1016 W. 6th Ave. #205                                                          
Anchorage, Ak 99501                                                            
   POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170                                     
                                                                               
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                               
                                                                               
TAPE 98-13, SIDE A                                                             
Number 001                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN ROBIN TAYLOR called the Judiciary Committee meeting to                
order at 1:35 and brought up Senate Committee Substitute for                   
Committee Substitute for HB 170(HESS) as the first order of                    
business.                                                                      
       HB 170 - SERVICE ANIMALS FOR PHYS/MENT. CHALLENGED                      
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE, prime sponsor of HB 170, said the impetus            
of the bill was people trying to train service animals and who had             
been refused full access to ferries, the court system and other                
state buildings. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE stated that the Americans                
with Disabilities Act (ADA) affords people the right to enter a                
public facility with a service animal. He said, however, the person            
is still responsible for that animal and may be asked to leave if              
the animal is disruptive.                                                      
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the other issue the bill seeks to address            
is service animals in training and their access to public                      
facilities. He said, in his understanding, changes in the judiciary            
committee substitute deal with certification and identification of             
these animals. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE found these changes acceptable.            
                                                                               
SENATOR ELLIS asked if REPRESENTATIVE BRICE was satisfied with the             
Senate HESS committee substitute that covers only public buildings             
or if he would like to see the bill restored to its original form.             
                                                                               
REP. BRICE replied that some of the issues revolved around access              
to the State Fair and other private facilities but he would leave              
the decision up to the committee. SENATOR ELLIS said he would be               
inclined to expand the bill but did not want to hurt the bills                 
chances by pressing it and would defer to the wishes of the rest of            
the committee.                                                                 
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked where the limited access was in the bill and             
REP. BRICE pointed to page 3, line 17, defining public facility. He            
explained that the first part of the bill simply brings the state              
into compliance with the ADA regarding certified service animals               
and the second part of the bill covers service animals in training.            
                                                                               
SENATOR ELLIS encouraged the committee to consider finding some                
middle ground allowing these animals into larger places commonly               
thought of as public accommodations. SENATOR ELLIS said the                    
testimony in the Hess committee was all in favor of leaving the                
bill the way it was, but, when they were told the bill would not               
move in that form, people decided some access was better than none.            
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked what actually happened at the Palmer fair and            
REP. BRICE said he only heard an anecdotal account of that incident            
but he believed the HESS change was a result of that committee's               
unwillingness to place a burden on private industry.                           
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the fair was actually a private industry.             
                                                                               
SENATOR MILLER moved the adoption of the Senate Judiciary committee            
substitute for committee substitute for HB 170. Without objection,             
it was so ordered.                                                             
                                                                               
MS. RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER testified via teleconference from Kenai and              
urged the committee to restore this bill to it's original form. She            
said dogs in training need exposure to become good service animals.            
                                                                               
MS. LINDA ATHONS, representing the 4-H guide dog program, also                 
testified via teleconference from Kenai. MS. ATHONS said the bill              
originated from a planned 'fun day' for dogs in training at the                
Palmer fair in 1995. The dogs were turned away and she was told by             
the fair board that they would not be allowed without legislative              
change. The 4-H teen trainers who were accompanying the dogs then              
worked with the Governor's Council on Independent Living to create             
this legislation. MS. ATHONS  said she believed that this part of              
the history of the bill has been lost along the way, and, with the             
inclusion of only state buildings, the original intent has                     
disappeared.                                                                   
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked how many young people had gone to the fair               
and MS. ATHONS replied there were six. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if                
there was some reason or a problem that came up that prevented them            
from entering the fair. MS. ATHONS said they were using the tent               
prior to the normal 4-H dog show and she believes that the fair                
prohibited them because of previous bad behavior by dogs totally               
unrelated to their organization.                                               
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR remarked that the judiciary committee substitute               
provides for identification and certification of dogs and their                
trainers and asked if MS. ATHONS had any problem with that. MS.                
ATHONS replied that members of her organization currently carry                
identification cards, describing both dog and trainer. CHAIRMAN                
TAYLOR remarked that some more visible form of identification may              
eliminate certain problems. MS. ATHONS replied that service dogs in            
her training program are required to wear jackets in public.                   
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned that hopefully that would always be the              
case if they put it into law and also certification would be                   
available for trainers. MS. ATHONS said currently trainers are                 
instructed in training and raising of the dog and must meet strict             
criteria before they can progress. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR stated he added             
a form of identification and certification through the Department              
of Health and Social Services so there would be an established                 
minimum standard. Right now there is no uniform body that issues               
identification and is approved by the state of Alaska. CHAIRMAN                
TAYLOR stressed he wants a clear, easily recognizable form of                  
identification.                                                                
                                                                               
SENATOR MILLER commented that he is also more comfortable with a               
standardized certification program and, as a business owner, would             
be more comfortable allowing dogs in training access to his                    
business establishment if there was such a program.                            
                                                                               
LINDA ATHONS emphasized that the 4-H program that she administers              
has strict criteria including home visits, trainer screening, and              
animal identification by breed. She believes the current                       
identification is clear but CHAIRMAN TAYLOR argued that                        
unfortunately there are always discourteous scofflaws who will do              
whatever they please.                                                          
                                                                               
MR. BILL CRAIG testified via teleconference from Sitka and                     
suggested perhaps including a misdemeanor prohibition against                  
falsely claiming an animal to be a service animal.                             
                                                                               
MS. HELEN CRAIG also testified via teleconference from Sitka. MS.              
CRAIG has been denied access to businesses all over the state with             
her certified service animal. MS. CRAIG said she is unable to hear             
well and needs the guidance of her service animal. She said dogs in            
training as well as certified service dogs need access to different            
situations in order to become successful.                                      
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR explained the changes made in the judiciary                    
committee substitute and said the program and identification                   
mandated by these changes could be modeled after the current 4-H               
program.                                                                       
                                                                               
DR. LEE HAGMEYER, with his service animal Wizard, testified that he            
has used a service animal for 23 years and has worked his dogs in              
situations ranging from ferries to taxicabs and has never had any              
problem more severe than a concern about shedding. DR. HAGMEYER                
indicated that, in the seeing-eye dog training program he is                   
familiar with, there are established policies and procedures that              
trainers follow. These allow for assessment and advancement of each            
dog at their own pace and require the trainer to contact businesses            
in advance and obtain permission to bring a dog in training into               
their business. DR. HAGMEYER said that he understands the concern              
that training programs should be vigorous but, with a three year               
apprenticeship program for trainers and up to two years training               
for the dog, he thinks this program is sufficiently rigorous. He               
said a service dog is responsible for the space around their                   
person, including the navigation of curbs, steps and traffic. DR.              
HAGMEYER recommended the standards of The U.S. Council of Guide Dog            
Schools as a model for any state standards that might be adopted.              
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted that DR. HAGEMEYER had not had problems with             
access and expressed his surprise that it might take two years                 
before a client could be united with a dog. DR. HAGEMEYER replied              
that he waited 18 months for his current dog, but his first dog                
took two years as she was more high spirited than Wizard.                      
                                                                               
MS. CRAIG interjected that seeing eye dogs are similar in some ways            
to hearing ear dogs but in many ways they are very different. She              
explained that her hearing ear dog required three years of training            
but learned 1000 commands in that time and now is able to warn her             
of danger, tell her where other people are in relation to her                  
position and let her know when the phone rings, among other things.            
She said the service of these dogs benefits not only their user but            
society as a whole. MS. CRAIG emphasized the ability to provide                
this benefit requires access to all places under all circumstances.            
MS. CRAIG expressed her appreciation for the work of the committee             
but reminded them that minimum standards need to be specific to the            
type of service the dog will eventually provide.                               
                                                                               
SENATOR PARNELL asked DR. HAGEMEYER if, with his 23 years of                   
experience, he could imagine areas where an animal in training                 
should not be allowed to enter. SENATOR PARNELL provided the                   
example of a day care facility that might hesitate to allow an                 
animal in training due to safety concerns and CHAIRMAN TAYLOR                  
suggested a machine shop might be a dangerous place. DR. HAGEMEYER             
replied that he has never had any trouble with his service dogs,               
except once, in a bar, where intoxicated people were somewhat                  
difficult to deal with.                                                        
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned his interest was in the call requesting              
permission to bring a dog in training into a business that is                  
currently used. DR. HAGEMEYER agreed that this is the 4-H standard.            
He said there is also adult supervision and both the dog and the               
trainer are identified by the identification card and the collar               
tag/kerchief. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR restated his concern that the dog be             
identified by a means that is quickly and easily recognizable. DR.             
HAGEMEYER said he was concerned that not just anyone could throw a             
blanket over their dog and say it is a dog in training. CHAIRMAN               
TAYLOR agreed with this.                                                       
                                                                               
MR. PATRICK REINHART, representing the Alaska Independent Living               
Council, testified via teleconference from Anchorage and suggested             
that the definition of public facility  might be broadened to                  
include "any entity that accepts public funding" to expand the                 
sites where dogs in training would be allowed. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR                 
responded by saying that DR. HAGEMEYER indicated dogs in training              
shouldn't be forced on unwilling businesses in the private sector.             
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR believes that the request for permission up-front              
is excellent, but there may be some good reasons for not allowing              
kids to take service dogs everywhere, without restriction. MR.                 
REINHART believes CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's concerns are covered by the                
committee substitute, he would just like to see the expansion of               
"public facilities", though his preference would be to have all                
private businesses open to dogs in training. MR. REINHART said the             
4-H program currently does a wonderful job of training these dogs              
and this bill is only designed to overcome any roadblocks they                 
might encounter in this process.                                               
                                                                               
LINDA ATHONS restated that the general protocol of the 4-H program             
is to call and ask permission in advance of a visit by a dog in                
training. She said in the case of an unplanned stop, the trainer               
may not be able to call in advance. MS. ATHONS mentioned that                  
trainers establish and rely on good working relationships with                 
business managers and occasionally have trouble when management                
changes. MS. ATHONS also noted that these changes do not provide               
the desired access to private sector businesses, yet add another               
layer of regulation. She said she feels she wished they wouldn't               
have bothered in the first place. She said this places a fee on                
people doing community service in order to process their                       
certification which she currently does under the 4-H program. She              
wondered who would certify people under the bill and if she could              
just turn things over to them and no longer have to administer the             
guide dog training program. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR replied that they were             
only looking for better identification and the bill was drafted to             
allow the adoption of her program and she could be the one to                  
inform the department if someone met the requirements of                       
certification.                                                                 
                                                                               
MS. ATHONS again questioned the fee, saying these people are                   
already spending up to $1000 to raise the dog. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR                 
replied that the fee covered certification and he added the fiscal             
note so the bill would not be slowed down by requiring a finance               
committee referral. MS. ATHONS said the whole point of the bill was            
access and now, with everything that has been tacked on, it feels              
unmanageable.                                                                  
                                                                               
MS. RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER, again testifying via teleconference from                
Kenai, said the dogs are clearly identified under the current 4-H              
program.  She believes that these dogs in training meet rigorous               
standards and businesses and people need education about this                  
issue. She would like to see the bill returned to it's original                
form. She said there are currently not enough dogs to meet the                 
demand for them within the seeing-impaired community.                          
                                                                               
SENATOR ELLIS commented that it appeared they had reached a                    
breakthrough when SENATOR MILLER approved CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's                    
certification language, which he said allayed his fears about                  
letting a service dog into his business. SENATOR ELLIS indicated               
that it might be appropriate to include quasi-public places like               
malls and fairs and he said he empathized with the negative                    
reaction to a new form of certification. He sensed people may be               
willing to go along with the new certification if they got access              
to more places.                                                                
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE mentioned the need for consistent visual                  
identification of service animals, as described in a letter from               
the state fair. He said the department has the latitude to certify             
the 4-H program now and, though he appreciates the concerns that               
were raised, he believes they can be addressed by the department               
and he would like to see the bill moved. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said             
he can imagine a regulation being created by the department at a               
nominal cost and the new certification goes along way in providing             
comfort for business owners. He left any further expansion of                  
access up to the committee.                                                    
                                                                               
SENATOR PARNELL said he would vote to move the bill as-is due to               
the testimony of DR.HAGEMEYER; he suggested they move the bill.                
SENATOR PARNELL then made a motion to move SCS for CSHB 170 (JUD)              
from committee with individual recommendations. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR                
objected in order to comment that he was moved by the Doctor's                 
testimony. He thinks the committee can not predict what types of               
situations might go awry. He stated that he is more comfortable                
with trainers calling in advance, asking permission. He thinks this            
involves the business owner in the training process and avoids                 
problems. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said the programs are working with the               
protocols that have been set up. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE noted that               
the bill is not prohibitive and will not prohibit any type of                  
training. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR added that the bill also specifically                
opens up some facilities that were previously left to the                      
discretion of managers. He said it is at least a step.                         
                                                                               
With no more comment on the motion, CHAIRMAN TAYLOR lifted his                 
objection and SCS CSHB 170(JUD) passed from committee.                         
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced that HB 7 was in a new draft that would              
be brought before the committee at the next hearing. With no                   
further business to come before the committee, they were adjourned.            
                                                                               
                                                                               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects