Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/04/1998 01:35 PM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE March 4, 1998 1:35 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Robin Taylor, Chairman Senator Drue Pearce, Vice-Chairman Senator Mike Miller Senator Sean Parnell Senator Johnny Ellis MEMBERS ABSENT All members present. COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE CS FOR CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 170(HES) "An Act relating to interference with the rights of physically and mentally challenged persons; and relating to service animals during their pre-training and training period." - SCS FOR CS FOR HOUSE BILL 170(JUD) MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 7(JUD) "An Act authorizing establishment of community dispute resolution centers to foster the resolution of disputes between juvenile offenders and their victims, and providing immunity from civil suits for youth courts and for members of the boards of directors, employees, volunteers, and members of youth courts." - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION HB 170 - See Senate HESS committee minutes dated 1/23/98 & 2/4/98. HB 7 - See Senate Judiciary minutes dated 2/4/98. WITNESS REGISTER Representative Tom Brice State Capitol Juneau, Ak 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SCS CSHB 170(HESS) Ms. Ruby Schmidtbauer PO Box 306 Ninilchik, Ak 99639 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170 Ms. Linda Athons 34824 K-Beach Rd. Soldotna, Ak 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170 Ms. Helen Craig 613 Degroff St. Sitka, Ak 99835 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170 Mr. William Craig 613 Degroff St. Sitka, Ak 99835 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170 Mr. Patrick Reinhart 1016 W. 6th Ave. #205 Anchorage, Ak 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-13, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN ROBIN TAYLOR called the Judiciary Committee meeting to order at 1:35 and brought up Senate Committee Substitute for Committee Substitute for HB 170(HESS) as the first order of business. HB 170 - SERVICE ANIMALS FOR PHYS/MENT. CHALLENGED REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE, prime sponsor of HB 170, said the impetus of the bill was people trying to train service animals and who had been refused full access to ferries, the court system and other state buildings. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE stated that the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) affords people the right to enter a public facility with a service animal. He said, however, the person is still responsible for that animal and may be asked to leave if the animal is disruptive. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the other issue the bill seeks to address is service animals in training and their access to public facilities. He said, in his understanding, changes in the judiciary committee substitute deal with certification and identification of these animals. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE found these changes acceptable. SENATOR ELLIS asked if REPRESENTATIVE BRICE was satisfied with the Senate HESS committee substitute that covers only public buildings or if he would like to see the bill restored to its original form. REP. BRICE replied that some of the issues revolved around access to the State Fair and other private facilities but he would leave the decision up to the committee. SENATOR ELLIS said he would be inclined to expand the bill but did not want to hurt the bills chances by pressing it and would defer to the wishes of the rest of the committee. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked where the limited access was in the bill and REP. BRICE pointed to page 3, line 17, defining public facility. He explained that the first part of the bill simply brings the state into compliance with the ADA regarding certified service animals and the second part of the bill covers service animals in training. SENATOR ELLIS encouraged the committee to consider finding some middle ground allowing these animals into larger places commonly thought of as public accommodations. SENATOR ELLIS said the testimony in the Hess committee was all in favor of leaving the bill the way it was, but, when they were told the bill would not move in that form, people decided some access was better than none. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked what actually happened at the Palmer fair and REP. BRICE said he only heard an anecdotal account of that incident but he believed the HESS change was a result of that committee's unwillingness to place a burden on private industry. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the fair was actually a private industry. SENATOR MILLER moved the adoption of the Senate Judiciary committee substitute for committee substitute for HB 170. Without objection, it was so ordered. MS. RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER testified via teleconference from Kenai and urged the committee to restore this bill to it's original form. She said dogs in training need exposure to become good service animals. MS. LINDA ATHONS, representing the 4-H guide dog program, also testified via teleconference from Kenai. MS. ATHONS said the bill originated from a planned 'fun day' for dogs in training at the Palmer fair in 1995. The dogs were turned away and she was told by the fair board that they would not be allowed without legislative change. The 4-H teen trainers who were accompanying the dogs then worked with the Governor's Council on Independent Living to create this legislation. MS. ATHONS said she believed that this part of the history of the bill has been lost along the way, and, with the inclusion of only state buildings, the original intent has disappeared. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked how many young people had gone to the fair and MS. ATHONS replied there were six. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if there was some reason or a problem that came up that prevented them from entering the fair. MS. ATHONS said they were using the tent prior to the normal 4-H dog show and she believes that the fair prohibited them because of previous bad behavior by dogs totally unrelated to their organization. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR remarked that the judiciary committee substitute provides for identification and certification of dogs and their trainers and asked if MS. ATHONS had any problem with that. MS. ATHONS replied that members of her organization currently carry identification cards, describing both dog and trainer. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR remarked that some more visible form of identification may eliminate certain problems. MS. ATHONS replied that service dogs in her training program are required to wear jackets in public. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned that hopefully that would always be the case if they put it into law and also certification would be available for trainers. MS. ATHONS said currently trainers are instructed in training and raising of the dog and must meet strict criteria before they can progress. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR stated he added a form of identification and certification through the Department of Health and Social Services so there would be an established minimum standard. Right now there is no uniform body that issues identification and is approved by the state of Alaska. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR stressed he wants a clear, easily recognizable form of identification. SENATOR MILLER commented that he is also more comfortable with a standardized certification program and, as a business owner, would be more comfortable allowing dogs in training access to his business establishment if there was such a program. LINDA ATHONS emphasized that the 4-H program that she administers has strict criteria including home visits, trainer screening, and animal identification by breed. She believes the current identification is clear but CHAIRMAN TAYLOR argued that unfortunately there are always discourteous scofflaws who will do whatever they please. MR. BILL CRAIG testified via teleconference from Sitka and suggested perhaps including a misdemeanor prohibition against falsely claiming an animal to be a service animal. MS. HELEN CRAIG also testified via teleconference from Sitka. MS. CRAIG has been denied access to businesses all over the state with her certified service animal. MS. CRAIG said she is unable to hear well and needs the guidance of her service animal. She said dogs in training as well as certified service dogs need access to different situations in order to become successful. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR explained the changes made in the judiciary committee substitute and said the program and identification mandated by these changes could be modeled after the current 4-H program. DR. LEE HAGMEYER, with his service animal Wizard, testified that he has used a service animal for 23 years and has worked his dogs in situations ranging from ferries to taxicabs and has never had any problem more severe than a concern about shedding. DR. HAGMEYER indicated that, in the seeing-eye dog training program he is familiar with, there are established policies and procedures that trainers follow. These allow for assessment and advancement of each dog at their own pace and require the trainer to contact businesses in advance and obtain permission to bring a dog in training into their business. DR. HAGMEYER said that he understands the concern that training programs should be vigorous but, with a three year apprenticeship program for trainers and up to two years training for the dog, he thinks this program is sufficiently rigorous. He said a service dog is responsible for the space around their person, including the navigation of curbs, steps and traffic. DR. HAGMEYER recommended the standards of The U.S. Council of Guide Dog Schools as a model for any state standards that might be adopted. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted that DR. HAGEMEYER had not had problems with access and expressed his surprise that it might take two years before a client could be united with a dog. DR. HAGEMEYER replied that he waited 18 months for his current dog, but his first dog took two years as she was more high spirited than Wizard. MS. CRAIG interjected that seeing eye dogs are similar in some ways to hearing ear dogs but in many ways they are very different. She explained that her hearing ear dog required three years of training but learned 1000 commands in that time and now is able to warn her of danger, tell her where other people are in relation to her position and let her know when the phone rings, among other things. She said the service of these dogs benefits not only their user but society as a whole. MS. CRAIG emphasized the ability to provide this benefit requires access to all places under all circumstances. MS. CRAIG expressed her appreciation for the work of the committee but reminded them that minimum standards need to be specific to the type of service the dog will eventually provide. SENATOR PARNELL asked DR. HAGEMEYER if, with his 23 years of experience, he could imagine areas where an animal in training should not be allowed to enter. SENATOR PARNELL provided the example of a day care facility that might hesitate to allow an animal in training due to safety concerns and CHAIRMAN TAYLOR suggested a machine shop might be a dangerous place. DR. HAGEMEYER replied that he has never had any trouble with his service dogs, except once, in a bar, where intoxicated people were somewhat difficult to deal with. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned his interest was in the call requesting permission to bring a dog in training into a business that is currently used. DR. HAGEMEYER agreed that this is the 4-H standard. He said there is also adult supervision and both the dog and the trainer are identified by the identification card and the collar tag/kerchief. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR restated his concern that the dog be identified by a means that is quickly and easily recognizable. DR. HAGEMEYER said he was concerned that not just anyone could throw a blanket over their dog and say it is a dog in training. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR agreed with this. MR. PATRICK REINHART, representing the Alaska Independent Living Council, testified via teleconference from Anchorage and suggested that the definition of public facility might be broadened to include "any entity that accepts public funding" to expand the sites where dogs in training would be allowed. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR responded by saying that DR. HAGEMEYER indicated dogs in training shouldn't be forced on unwilling businesses in the private sector. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR believes that the request for permission up-front is excellent, but there may be some good reasons for not allowing kids to take service dogs everywhere, without restriction. MR. REINHART believes CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's concerns are covered by the committee substitute, he would just like to see the expansion of "public facilities", though his preference would be to have all private businesses open to dogs in training. MR. REINHART said the 4-H program currently does a wonderful job of training these dogs and this bill is only designed to overcome any roadblocks they might encounter in this process. LINDA ATHONS restated that the general protocol of the 4-H program is to call and ask permission in advance of a visit by a dog in training. She said in the case of an unplanned stop, the trainer may not be able to call in advance. MS. ATHONS mentioned that trainers establish and rely on good working relationships with business managers and occasionally have trouble when management changes. MS. ATHONS also noted that these changes do not provide the desired access to private sector businesses, yet add another layer of regulation. She said she feels she wished they wouldn't have bothered in the first place. She said this places a fee on people doing community service in order to process their certification which she currently does under the 4-H program. She wondered who would certify people under the bill and if she could just turn things over to them and no longer have to administer the guide dog training program. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR replied that they were only looking for better identification and the bill was drafted to allow the adoption of her program and she could be the one to inform the department if someone met the requirements of certification. MS. ATHONS again questioned the fee, saying these people are already spending up to $1000 to raise the dog. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR replied that the fee covered certification and he added the fiscal note so the bill would not be slowed down by requiring a finance committee referral. MS. ATHONS said the whole point of the bill was access and now, with everything that has been tacked on, it feels unmanageable. MS. RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER, again testifying via teleconference from Kenai, said the dogs are clearly identified under the current 4-H program. She believes that these dogs in training meet rigorous standards and businesses and people need education about this issue. She would like to see the bill returned to it's original form. She said there are currently not enough dogs to meet the demand for them within the seeing-impaired community. SENATOR ELLIS commented that it appeared they had reached a breakthrough when SENATOR MILLER approved CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's certification language, which he said allayed his fears about letting a service dog into his business. SENATOR ELLIS indicated that it might be appropriate to include quasi-public places like malls and fairs and he said he empathized with the negative reaction to a new form of certification. He sensed people may be willing to go along with the new certification if they got access to more places. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE mentioned the need for consistent visual identification of service animals, as described in a letter from the state fair. He said the department has the latitude to certify the 4-H program now and, though he appreciates the concerns that were raised, he believes they can be addressed by the department and he would like to see the bill moved. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he can imagine a regulation being created by the department at a nominal cost and the new certification goes along way in providing comfort for business owners. He left any further expansion of access up to the committee. SENATOR PARNELL said he would vote to move the bill as-is due to the testimony of DR.HAGEMEYER; he suggested they move the bill. SENATOR PARNELL then made a motion to move SCS for CSHB 170 (JUD) from committee with individual recommendations. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR objected in order to comment that he was moved by the Doctor's testimony. He thinks the committee can not predict what types of situations might go awry. He stated that he is more comfortable with trainers calling in advance, asking permission. He thinks this involves the business owner in the training process and avoids problems. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said the programs are working with the protocols that have been set up. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE noted that the bill is not prohibitive and will not prohibit any type of training. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR added that the bill also specifically opens up some facilities that were previously left to the discretion of managers. He said it is at least a step. With no more comment on the motion, CHAIRMAN TAYLOR lifted his objection and SCS CSHB 170(JUD) passed from committee. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced that HB 7 was in a new draft that would be brought before the committee at the next hearing. With no further business to come before the committee, they were adjourned.
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