Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/18/1994 01:39 PM Senate HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE
April 18, 1994
1:39 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Steve Rieger, Chairman
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Jim Duncan
Senator Johnny Ellis
Senator Judy Salo
Senator Bert Sharp, Vice-Chairman
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present.
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATIONS CONSIDERED:
Board of Clinical Social Work Examiners
Board of Education
Board of Marital and Family Therapy
Board of Certified Direct-Entry Midwives
Board of Nursing
Board of Nursing Home Administrators
Professional Teaching Practices Commission
State Medical Board
University of Alaska Board of Regents
Commissioner, Department of Health and Social Services
SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 301
"An Act relating to the calculation of instructional units used in
determining state aid for education and increasing elementary and
secondary instructional units for certain school districts with 800
or fewer students in average daily membership; and providing for an
effective date."
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 409(FIN) am(efd fld)
"An Act relating to the maximum amount of assistance that may be
granted under the adult public assistance program and the program
of aid to families with dependent children; proposing a special
demonstration project within the program of aid to families with
dependent children and directing the Department of Health and
Social Services to seek waivers from the federal government to
implement the project."
HOUSE BILL NO. 429
"An Act relating to the special education service agency."
SENATE BILL NO. 346
"An Act requiring that charitable gaming permittees, operators, and
vendors may not turn over a pull tab or bingo prize of $50 or more
to a person entitled to that prize unless the person provides
certain information to the permittee, operator, or vendor and signs
a receipt for the prize; requiring the reporting of winners of
prizes of $50 or more to the Department of Health and Social
Services to ensure that recipients of services provided by the
Department of Health and Social Services are reporting charitable
gaming winnings and are eligible for those services."
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 48
Relating to welfare reform.
SB 304 (AHFC BONDS FOR UNIV. OF ALASKA USES) WAS SCHEDULED, BUT NOT OT
HEARD THIS DATE.
HB 472 (REFERRALS INVOLVING DENTAL SERVICES) WAS SCHEDULED, BUT NOT OT
HEARD THIS DATE.
HB 339 (NO CENSORSHIP: AMERICAN HISTORY DOCUMENTS) WAS SCHEDULED,
BUT NOT HEARD THIS DATE.
HJR 54 (SUPPORT MEDICAL SAVINGS ACCT LEGIS) WAS SCHEDULED, BUT NOT T
HEARD THIS DATE.
SB 323 (VIDEOTAPE ALL INTERVIEWS OF ABUSED MINORS) WAS SCHEDULED,
BUT NOT HEARD THIS DATE.
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 301 - See Health, Education & Social Services minutes dated
3/30/94.
HB 409 - No previous action to record.
HB 429 - See Health, Education & Social Services minutes dated
3/21/94.
SB 346 - See Labor & Commerce minutes dated 3/31/94 and Health,
Education & Social Services minutes dated 4/15/94.
SJR 48 - See Health, Education & Social Services minutes dated
4/15/94.
SB 304 - No previous action to record.
HB 472 - See Health, Education & Social Services minutes dated
4/15/94.
HB 339 - See Health, Education & Social Services minutes dated
4/15/94.
HJR 54 - See Health, Education & Social Services minutes dated
4/15/94.
SB 323 - See Health, Education & Social Services minutes dated
4/15/94.
WITNESS REGISTER
Senator Leman
Prime Sponsor
State Capitol
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed SJR 48.
Margaret Lowe, Commissioner
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110601
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0601
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed the composition of the board as
specified in the by-laws.
Diane Brown
Department of Education
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed issues regarding the by-laws.
Sasha Hughes
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed SB 346.
Jan Hansen, Director
Division of Public Assistance
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110640
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0640
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed SB 346.
Joe Ambrose
Staff to Senator Taylor
State Capitol
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed the CS for SB 301.
Wanda Cooksey
Single Site School District
P. O. Box 240052
Douglas, Alaska 99824
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed the single site issue.
Cathy Fliris, President
Tanana City School Board
Single Site School
P.O. Box 132
Tanana, Alaska 99777
POSITION STATEMENT: Urged permanent fix for single site problem.
Mike Murphy
Nome School Board
P.O. Box 1062
Nome, Alaska 99762
POSITION STATEMENT: Urged permanent fix for single site problem.
Ed Gilley, Superintendent
Adak Region School District
Adak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Urged support for single site schools.
Diana Herschbach, Member
Mat-Su School Board
President, Association of Alaska School Boards
P.O. Box 521084
Big Lake, Alaska 99652
POSITION STATEMENT: Urged support for a single site solution.
Kristina Tornquist, Member
Board of Directors for NEA-Alaska
P.O. Box 1641
Nome, Alaska 99762
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 301.
June Nelson, Confirmation Nominee
Board of Education
P.O. Box 158
Kotzebue, Alaska 99752
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions.
Representative Mark Hanley
Prime Sponsor
State Capitol
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed HB 409.
Sherrie Goll
Alaska Women's Lobby
P.O. Box 22156
Juneau, Alaska 99802
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed concerns with HB 409.
Bob Zibell
326 4th Street No. 1108
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed concern with APA partially funding
AFDC.
Karen Robinson
League of Women's Voters
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed concerns with HB 409.
Jan Hansen, Director
Division of Public Assistance
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110640
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0640
POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed HB 409 and the current jobs program. .
Offered suggestions.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 94-32, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN RIEGER called the Senate Health, Education and Social
Services (HESS) Committee to order at 1:39 p.m. He said that the
confirmations were the first order of business before the
committee. He noted that the Board of Education nominees were not
yet on teleconference. He informed the committee that there were
resumes in the committee packets for all of the confirmation
nominees. He informed the committee of the following confirmation
nominees: James W. Henkelman and Martha Houck for the Board of
Clinical Social Work Examiners; John E. Hotzfield and June Nelson
of the Board of Education; Randall G. Jones of the Board of Marital
and Family Therapy; Paula Korn of the Board of Certified Direct-
Entry Midwives; J. K. Casteel and Patricia Gail Kelley of the Board
of Nursing; Kathy S. Lockhart and Rose Palmquist of the Board of
Nursing Home Administrators; Thomas L. Matheson, Christine A.
Niemi, Karen J. Noordhoff and Mildred J. Wedel of Professional
Teaching Practices Commission; Edward Spencer of the State Medical
Board; Scott A. Otterbacher (Student Member) of the University of
Alaska Board of Regents; Margaret R. Lowe, Commissioner of the
Department of Health and Social Services. There was no discussion
or objection to the list of confirmations; therefore, the
confirmation sheet was passed out. He stated that they would
return to confirmations when the two Board of Education nominees
were on teleconference.
Number 067
CHAIRMAN RIEGER introduced SJR 48 (FEDERAL IMPEDIMENTS TO WELFARE
REFORM) as the next order of business before the committee.
SENATOR LEMAN pointed out that his sponsor statement was in the
committee's packet. He explained that SJR 48 asks Congress to
modify federal laws regarding the rules of the welfare system.
SJR 48 would grant more flexibility to the state. He mentioned the
100 hour rule, earned income disregard and the auto allowance. He
suggested that SJR 48 be moved on.
SENATOR SALO expressed concern that the resolution seems general.
SENATOR LEMAN said that it was made general somewhat intentionally.
He felt that it could be made specific. He stated that the goal is
to have more income in the pockets of individuals and ultimately
eliminating the government providing that income. He indicated
that they want to restructure the program in order to accomplish
those goals. He thought that they could be more specific in what
they wanted done.
SENATOR MILLER moved SJR 48 out of committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. Hearing no
objections, it was so ordered.
Number 125
CHAIRMAN RIEGER introduced HB 429 (SPECIAL EDUCATION SERVICE
AGENCY) as the next order of business before the committee.
SENATOR DUNCAN said that HB 429 removes the Governor's Council on
Disability and Special Education from being the governing
organization of the Special Education Service Agency (SESA). He
felt that the desire to have a more consumer oriented governing
board for SESA was commendable. He inquired as to why that board
should not be created now. He thought that they had requested that
the consumer oriented board be proposed in order to put it into
this legislation.
MARGARET LOWE, Commissioner of the Department of Health and Social
Services (DHSS), pointed out that the composition of the board is
on page 3 of the by-laws in the committee's packet. She reviewed
the composition of the board which contains nine members
representing various groups and individuals effected by this.
SENATOR ELLIS thought that there would have been a CS or an
amendment from the department in order to create this board.
SENATOR DUNCAN felt that with the by-laws, the board is well-
structured. He expressed concern with the position paper which
indicated that HB 429 could result in the establishment of a more
consumer oriented board. He reiterated the need to create the
board in this legislation.
MARGARET LOWE noted that the composition of the board in the by-
laws was created by the Governor's Council who stands behind it.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER thought that reasons could arise to amend the board
and therefore, it would not be as wise to give that much
specificity in statute. He said that the by-laws seem good and by-
laws are not easily amended.
SENATOR DUNCAN asked if the statute requires that the composition
of the board shall be determined by the by-laws. MARGARET LOWE
said no and noted that the by-laws had been adopted by the board.
Number 224
DIANE BROWN, Department of Education (DOE), agreed with Chairman
Rieger that the composition of the board be in the by-laws instead
of statutes. There was no need to have the composition of the
board specifically outlined in statute. She explained that they
were concerned with the possibility of the need to change the
board's composition which would necessitate returning to the
legislature. She said that they trusted that the SESA by-laws
would be followed.
SENATOR ELLIS moved that the composition of the board of directors
as specified in the Governor's Council adopted by-laws be adopted
in order to establish in statute a new governing board for the
agency. He expressed uneasiness with eliminating the existing
governing board without replacing it with something in statute.
SENATOR SALO concurred with Senator Ellis' concern. She felt that
it should go back to drafting because AS 14.30.610, which is
repealed, is the section dealing with the governing body. She
suggested that Senator Ellis' amendment should be incorporated into
that section. She did not know what the other statute which is
repealed in HB 429 involves.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER said that he would prefer to move this bill;
however, he objected to the amendment for purposes of discussion.
MARGARET LOWE said that she felt comfortable moving the bill as it
is currently. She pointed out that there is oversight by DOE and
the Governor's Council which should serve as a safeguard.
Upon a hand vote, Senators Ellis and Salo voted "Yea" while
Senators Rieger, Miller, Sharp, and Leman voted "Nay." The motion
failed.
SENATOR MILLER moved HB 429 out of committee with individual
recommendations. Hearing no objections, it was so ordered.
Number 288
CHAIRMAN RIEGER introduced SB 346 (REPORT CHARITABLE GAMING
WINNERS) as the next order of business before the committee.
SASHA HUGHES said that she represented herself as a senior citizen.
She felt that she was entitled to play bingo. She informed the
committee that she had kept track of the bingo winnings the first
eleven days of April 1994. She said that Anchorage welfare
recipients in bingo halls won $482,000, a round trip ticket for two
to Las Vegas with $1200 cash, a 23 inch television and a VCR. None
of those winnings were reported. She said that DHSS does not want
to do anything.
Ms. Hughes informed the committee of a situation in which a family
was living in a bingo hall. The husband won $20,000 and did not
report the winnings nor find a place to live. She explained that
she went to DHSS who admitted that this man was a welfare
recipient. DHSS did not know what they could do about the
situation. She said that such situations of welfare fraud occur
constantly. She felt that having the winner sign their correct
name and social security number which would be given to DHSS would
help inhibit welfare fraud.
JAN HANSEN, Director of the Division of Public Assistance for DHSS,
said that bingo and pull tab income has been a problem for the
division for many years. She welcomed any solution which would
result in accurate reports of this income. Under the division's
programs, bingo and pull tab income is countable. She indicated
the need to ensure that they receive the correct name and social
security number or date of birth from the winning individual. The
bill does not require that the operator verify that the individual
gives the correct social security number or date of birth. Without
verification, incorrect reporting could occur. She explained that
requiring an operator to check the winning individual's
identification would ensure they receive the correct information.
Ms. Hansen felt that the method of obtaining the information in the
bill was cumbersome, but workable. That method would create a
large administrative work load. She expressed concern that if the
correct information is not reported with the winnings then the
information would not be meaningful. Another concern was expressed
regarding the manner in which this would be enforced; how would
they enforce operators to report the correct information. She said
that a good number of welfare recipients do play and in some areas
reporting is not such an issue. In Anchorage, there is not good
reporting of winnings. She noted that the fiscal notes do not
specify the amount of savings, although, they believe there would
be savings. There is no way to determine the amount of savings.
She did feel that the savings should exceed the costs.
Number 397
SENATOR SALO asked if individuals are being removed from public
assistance if they win and then are sent back through all the
paperwork to put them back on public assistance. JAN HANSEN said
that a winner on public assistance would have a $1 for $1 reduction
of their benefits. Ms. Hansen noted that most reported earnings
are small amounts. SASHA HUGHES thought that the bill required
that the winner show a photo identification. Ms. Hughes also
indicated that gaming has a computer compatible reporting form.
SENATOR LEMAN felt that requiring a winner to show a photo
identification would be a good provision although, it does not seem
to be included in SB 346.
SENATOR SALO inquired as to how Ms. Hughes acquired her data on the
amount of winnings for welfare recipients at bingo. SASHA HUGHES
explained that bingo winners must sign a sheet before they are
paid. Ms. Hughes stated, "We all know who's on welfare and who's
winning." The top winners seem to be Daffy Duck and Walter Hickel.
Ms. Hughes said that she would be glad to take Senator Salo to a
bingo hall when she is in Anchorage. Ms. Hughes recommended that
SB 346 only be applied to communities with a population in excess
of 10,000.
SENATOR LEMAN moved a conceptual amendment requiring that the
winner show photo identification. The drafter could put that in
correctly. Hearing no objections, it was adopted.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER asked if there was any further testimony on SB 346.
Hearing none, he said that the CS would be drafted with Senator
Leman's amendment which would be before the committee again.
Number 457
CHAIRMAN RIEGER introduced SB 301 (REVISE FOUNDATION FORMULA, SMALL LL
SCHOOLS) as the next order of business before the committee. He
stated that he did not intend to move the bill today. He pointed
out that there was a CS in the committee's packet which
incorporates suggestion by DOE regarding the "hold harmless"
provisions in existing law.
JOE AMBROSE, Staff to Senator Taylor, informed the committee that
Senator Taylor does not have a problem with the CS. The CS drops
the permanent fix on the single site issue.
WANDA COOKSEY, representing the 21 Single Site School Districts,
pointed out that the committee should have written testimony from
her. She expressed the need to correct the single site problem in
a permanent way. When the foundation formula is worked on in the
future, the single site issue would also be present for review.
She did not know of any group in opposition to this bill; the State
Board of Education, the School Boards Association, NEA-Alaska, and
AASA support this bill. She urged the committee to put the single
site fix back into the CS.
CATHY FLIRIS, President of the Tanana School District, pointed out
that Tanana was a single site school. She thanked the committee
for full and early funding of the Tanana school. She expressed
insecurity regarding future funding since there is not a permanent
fix for the single site problem. She explained that single site
funding represents a crucial 10 percent of their budget; without
this funding, planning is inhibited. One-third of the teaching
staff is covered by 10 percent of the budget. She urged the
committee to permanently correct the single site problem and amend
Title 13.
MIKE MURPHY, Nome School Board, said that he cared about the
education of children in Nome and across the state. He reiterated
the need to continue with the single site fix. He pointed out that
21 out of the 54 school districts in the state have equity in the
foundation formula. He said that in the Nome school district the
single site funding is 4 percent of the budget which is equivalent
to four or five positions. If this funding is lost, those
positions would be lost and the quality of education would be
inhibited. He urged the committee to fix this situation and make
it equal across the state.
ED GILLEY, Superintendent of the Adak Region School District, said
that Adak has not gone away. He pointed out that Adak was left out
of the single site funding this year because of the forecast that
there would be declining enrollment. He noted that single site
funding allowed Adak to have four to five more teachers. He asked
for the committee's support of the single site; fix this problem so
that other issues can be addressed. He thanked the committee for
HB 405, especially Senator Duncan. He reiterated that all
educational associations believe fully in this bill. He said that
he would welcome any questions regarding the status of Adak.
Number 530
SENATOR SHARP said that he had questions and would like to talk
with Mr. Gilley regarding Adak after the committee meeting.
ED GILLEY noted that the proposed CS would limit the money coming
into Adak which would be fine if enrollment decreases. He did not
know what to expect for Adak. Adak has a flexible board with a
flexible plan that addresses the possibility of 150 children or no
children. He explained that they were trying to take care of their
students and staff until the end.
DIANA HERSCHBACH, Mat-Su School Board member and President of the
Association of Alaska School Boards (AASB), said that this does not
effect her school district. They have always been supportive of
fixing the single site problem because it would bring equity for
all of Alaska's children. She felt that fixing the single site
problem would eliminate some of the politics in education in these
districts. The single site schools are uncertain about funding
which leads to difficulties in planning. She thanked the committee
for the passage of the 61 unit value. She explained that this
funding uncertainty often creates panic, resulting in losing good
teachers. She pointed out that funding for the single sites would
be a small portion of the overall budget. She informed the
committee that the general membership of AASB passed a resolution
supporting an equitable solution to the single dual site issue as
well as the "hold harmless" provision of SB 301.
KRISTINA TORNQUIST, NEA-Alaska Board of Directors member, stated
support for SB 301 from NEA-Alaska because it would provide
equitable funding for single sites. She said, "A child is a child
is a child whether he or she comes from a single site or a district
with multiple sites; they are all worthy kids and I would like to
see them treated the same."
TAPE 94-32, SIDE B
Number 590
SENATOR LEMAN asked if Ms. Tornquist's statement that "A child is
a child is a child" applies to those in public, private, and home
schools. KRISTINA TORNQUIST said that she would have to think
about it. Ms. Tornquist did believe in her statement, but her
concern is with public education.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER held SB 301 due to the new CS before the committee
members. SENATOR ELLIS inquired as to the changes in the CS.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER explained that the CS amends the "hold harmless"
provisions and removes the amending of the foundation formula for
single sites.
SENATOR DUNCAN inquired as to the time frame of the single site
issue. CHAIRMAN RIEGER felt that the "hold harmless" issue was
non-controversial, while the single site issue seems to have more
interest because it is part of the foundation formula rewrite.
SENATOR DUNCAN did not feel that it was that controversial to deal
with the single site issue formula. Senator Duncan felt that the
single site should be dealt with in its original form, not in a CS.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER said that SB 301 would be before the committee
again.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER informed the committee that June Nelson, one of the
Board of Education confirmation nominees was on-line for questions.
Number 562
SENATOR ELLIS asked if Ms. Nelson could give the committee an
update on the direction of education reform with regard to Alaska
2000. He also inquired as to Ms. Nelson's personal views regarding
education reform and outcome based education.
JUNE NELSON, Board of Education, explained that the Alaska 2000
standards portion had been sent back to be rewritten. The
standards are not clear or specific enough.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if the board or the department would rewrite
those standards or would it go back through the subcommittee
process. He asked if there were time lines regarding the new
standards. He reiterated his question about Ms. Nelson's position
on outcome based education.
JUNE NELSON said that the standards have gone back to committee
along with staff and board members. The rewritten standards that
they produce will come before the board for review. She indicated
that the rewritten standards would be implemented in a year. She
informed the committee that these standards were never intended to
gear towards outcome based education. She stated that she did not
have a problem with outcome based education.
SENATOR SALO inquired as to the total number of years that Ms.
Nelson had served on the Board of Education. JUNE NELSON said that
she had served for three years in the past and three years
currently.
SENATOR SALO thanked Ms. Nelson for her service on the Board of
Education. Senator Salo asked if there were other areas of concern
that Ms. Nelson wanted to share with the committee. JUNE NELSON
expressed concern with the social areas. Many social areas are not
mandated, but they are expected to have programs in the school to
address these social issues. Ms. Nelson gave HIV programs as an
example. Ms. Nelson felt that at some point they must decide what
are the responsibilities of the board and those of the Department
of Health and Social Services. SENATOR SALO agreed with Ms. Nelson
and thanked her for her service.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER noted that they had not been able to contact John
Hotzfield, the other Board of Education nominee. He said that Mr.
Hotzfield's name could be forwarded to the next committee or held
to schedule another teleconference.
SENATOR ELLIS inquired as to why Mr. Hotzfield was not on-line.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER explained that a teleconference had been scheduled
and for unknown reasons Mr. Hotzfield was not present.
SENATOR SHARP inquired of Mr. Hotzfield's residency. CHAIRMAN
RIEGER said that Mr. Hotzfield was a resident of Fairbanks.
SENATOR ELLIS requested the opportunity to talk with Mr. Hotzfield.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER said that Mr. Hotzfield's confirmation would be
held over.
Number 461
CHAIRMAN RIEGER introduced HB 409 (AFDC DEMO PROJECT AND DECREASE) )
as the next order of business before the committee.
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HANLEY, Prime Sponsor, felt that the best way
to reduce welfare is to get the individuals off the welfare system.
He said that there are basically three portions to HB 409. The
first portion of the bill removes disincentives for people on
welfare to work while providing additional incentives for people on
welfare to work. He explained that under the current welfare
system, individuals are only allowed to keep $50 of what they earn;
for the first four months they are on welfare, they get to keep
one-third of their earnings. After the first four months, they are
allowed to keep $50 of their earnings which results in a tremendous
disincentive to work. He pointed out that under HB 409, the
individual would be allowed to keep $200 of their earnings and the
four month period is extended to two years which would benefit the
individual on welfare and the state. He informed the committee
that under the current welfare system, there is a maximum vehicle
allowance of $1500 which is increased to $5000 under HB 409.
Representative Hanley pointed out that the Workfare provision
requires that individuals receiving AFDC assistance participate in
10 hours a week of paid employment or 21 hours a week of
uncompensated community service work. He noted that the other main
portion of the bill is the rateable reduction which is similar to
last years. There are costs in administering and monitoring the
program. He indicated that many individuals on the program have
difficulties with transportation and child care. A portion of the
cost for HB 409 is paying for that transportation and child care.
He stated that he anticipated savings in the program over the long-
term which would benefit everyone.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if Representative Brice's resolution regarding
the 100 hour rule waiver and Senator Leman's resolution regarding
the department's authority with applying for waivers would be
duplicated by HB 409. REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY stated that
Representative Brice's bill requested a waiver of the 100 hour rule
for all states. HB 409 would be an individual application from
Alaska to the federal government on these applications while
directing the department on the composition of the application.
Representative Brice's resolution is a request to apply the 100
hour rule waiver for other states to all states.
Number 396
SENATOR ELLIS explained that the 100 hour rule would more than
likely be the first to go for all states under welfare reform. He
inquired as to the timing of this waiver process and the cost
involved in applying for waivers which may end up being granted at
the federal level. REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY stated that some of these
waivers which have been granted in other states would not need a
lot of money in the application or granting process; the 100 hour
rule is one of those. Representative Hanley noted that HB 409 is
a package of what the department feels would be granted.
SENATOR ELLIS inquired as to who decides which individuals do
compensated versus uncompensated work. REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY
explained that the client would choose and there are some job
search skills; however, it is not a jobs program with lots of
training. HB 409 is structured with an incentive to do compensated
work; an individual is required to do less paid work than
uncompensated work.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if Representative Hanley had summed up last
year's rateable reduction. He inquired as to the impact of a
monthly AFDC check. REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY said no, but deferred to
the department.
SENATOR SALO inquired as to the scope of these pilot projects.
REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY indicated that he would prefer to do them on
a statewide basis, but the federal government has certain
restrictions. These are demonstration projects which require a
test group and a control group within each area. Representative
Hanley pointed out that there are four test areas: Anchorage, Mat-
Su, Fairbanks, and the North Slope Borough. Representative Hanley
did not have the specific numbers in front of him.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if the rateable reduction would apply to
everyone in the state. REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY said yes, a rateable
reduction would be used to pay for something which does not benefit
everyone. There is no way around the federal requirements.
Representative Hanley noted that one of President Clinton's
proposals for welfare reform would tax the welfare benefits in
order to pay for the program.
SENATOR ELLIS stated that President Clinton's proposal applied a
funding mechanism to everyone in order to get people off welfare
which is not exactly the same. REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY agreed.
SENATOR MILLER moved to adopt the Lauterbach 8-LS1211\M CS in lieu
of the original bill for discussion purposes. SENATOR ELLIS
objected in order to identify the changes the CS encompasses.
REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY pointed out that the only difference between
the CS and the original bill is that the CS has temporary sections
of law due to a drafting technique; there is no essential impact to
the rateable reductions. The temporary sections specify that the
reductions are to be repealed after the project ends.
Hearing no objections, the CS was adopted.
Number 289
SHERRIE GOLL, Alaska Women's Lobby, stated support of efforts to
assist welfare recipients to become independent of the system;
however, the Alaska Women's Lobby does not agree that a workfare
program is the most effective manner in which to achieve
independence. She expressed concern with the rateable reductions,
especially the second year of these which would effect every
welfare recipient in the state. The waivers would not effect
everyone in the state. She urged consideration of the Adult Public
Assistance (APA) cuts; APA recipients are aged, blind and disabled
people. These people would not benefit from workfare or AFDC
waivers. She noted that no other state who has executed welfare
reform has chosen to reduce benefits to APA recipients. She urged
the committee to eliminate the section on APA, to not increase AFDC
cuts, and use the savings from reducing benefits to all individuals
from last years program in order to assist in the cost of this
legislation.
Ms. Goll expressed concern with creating another bureaucracy for
the workfare program. In particular, the data processing system
would be under tremendous pressure when all these alternative
systems were reviewed which could develop problems in accuracy that
translates into cost. She said that the Women's Lobby supports
this kind of program; they would like to place the funding in the
job's program specifically for uncompensated work. She reiterated
the need to delete the APA section.
BOB ZIBELL said that funding for the AFDC portion of the bill would
come partially from APA benefits. APA is composed of the elderly,
blind and disabled individuals. He was opposed to taking money
from the APA section to fund welfare programs. He pointed out that
Senator Leman's bill does not take funding from APA. He suggested
that attempts to get individuals off welfare should be funded by
money from AFDC or DHSS. He did not understand how AFDC and APA
could be mixed together in the first place; a person does not
become blind, elderly or disabled voluntarily. The two programs
are different; one involves a choice while the other does not. He
reiterated his opposition to APA bearing part of the burden of
funding AFDC.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if Mr. Zibell realized that the legislature
voted to cut the monthly benefits for APA. BOB ZIBELL said that he
realized that.
Number 193
KAREN ROBINSON, League of Women's Voters, appreciated the work
Representative Hanley had given the bill. She said the league
agrees with the goal of reducing welfare participation; however,
they are concerned with the direction of HB 409. Welfare
recipients faced cuts last year and it would not be in the best
interest of the state to cut welfare recipients again this year.
She expressed concern with the cuts to APA who would not benefit
from this program, but they would help fund it. She offered to
work with the legislature and Representative Hanley on welfare
reform. She was concerned that the jobs program is under funded.
The jobs program which is already in place should be funded at a
level to get the maximum number of participants in the program.
She expressed the need for the legislature to move slower and
review programs which would met the goal of the sponsor, to get
people off welfare.
SENATOR LEMAN suggested that if the legislature moved any slower
nothing would get done this year. KAREN ROBINSON reiterated that
from the League of Women's Voters point of view, the legislature
place HB 409 in an interim committee to work with the various
groups involved with welfare. Without health care reform or money
for child care, people would not be able to get off welfare. Ms.
Robinson noted that a national study illustrated that even if a
person works on minimum wage for forty hours a week, they earn
approximately $8000. That amount of money is not enough for a
family of four to get off welfare. Ms. Robinson felt that the
sponsors goal was appropriate, but more work needed to done. The
league does not believe that the workfare program will get people
off welfare and working. Ms. Robinson felt that the workfare
program would put mothers and fathers to volunteer work instead of
being with their children while looking for a meaningful job.
SENATOR LEMAN disagreed with Ms. Robinson's conclusions. He did
agree with her stated goal of reforming welfare.
KAREN ROBINSON emphasized that the League of Women Voters believe
that welfare as well as reform must take place. She mentioned that
the programs started under the Reagan and Bush administrations are
just beginning to take effect. Those programs should be fully
funded in order to know the real outcomes of the programs.
Number 105
SENATOR SHARP was worried because the last welfare reform raised
costs by approximately 210 percent and is still increasing. KAREN
ROBINSON thought that increase was due to the inclusion of two
parent families. SENATOR SHARP stated that had not happened.
SENATOR ELLIS inquired as to the monetary impact of this bill on an
APA recipient or an AFDC child as well as last year's rateable
reduction and the proposed rateable reduction in HB 409.
JAN HANSEN, Director of Public Assistance, said that HB 67 which
reduced AFDC and APA reduced a household of three by $27, from $950
to $923. Two parent families had a $90 reduction over the $27
reduction, a total of $117 reduction. APA recipients face
approximately an $11 reduction. She said that this year's
reduction proposed by HB 409 would be around $12 for AFDC and $5.45
for an APA family.
SENATOR ELLIS noted that there are proposed cuts for the jobs
program by the Senate. He inquired as to the proposal of the House
Budget regarding the jobs program. JAN HANSEN explained that House
Budget has an increment in to add staff in order to include the
required federal increases. They have to serve more people. Ms.
Hansen pointed out that there was a $200,000 General Fund increment
as well as travel and health benefit increases which total
$215,000.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if the House proposal goes through the process,
would the jobs program still be significantly under funded and the
federally mandated goals for participation would not be met. JAN
HANSEN agreed that Senator Ellis' scenario was a possibility and if
the increment is not received, then some reassessments will have to
be made in order to be able to meet the numbers. Ms. Hansen was
skeptical that the department would be at a level of funding to
meet the numbers.
SENATOR ELLIS inquired as to the dollar tradeoff of money invested
in the jobs program where even the volunteers cannot be served
versus money invested in these pilot projects; is one better than
the other.
TAPE 94-33, SIDE A
Number 008
JAN HANSEN explained that part of HB 409 does what the jobs program
does, the workfare provision is similar to a component in the jobs
program. A two parent family would have to do the same as under
the workfare provision of HB 409. This expands the workfare
component of the jobs program, but HB 409 does not expand other
components which effectively work towards giving people training.
She noted that the last amendment before HB 409 passed the House
requires that the workfare component be contracted out which
increases the cost.
Ms. Hansen pointed out that HB 409 would give a waiver of the 100
hour rule which is currently a hinderance. She agreed that a
waiver of the 100 hour rule would be easy and inexpensive; however,
the earnings incentives which are important, become more expensive
due to the computer programming. In conclusion, she felt that they
would get the same results for the money with the jobs program;
however, the components in HB 409 would not be tested. She stated
that if more money was put into the programs in a specific manner
then the same net result would happen. She felt that if she was
given the amount of money in the fiscal note and the state rules
and regulations were eliminated, she could fully staff and obtain
a few waivers while upgrading the jobs program which would give the
desired results. She also believed that HB 409 would deliver
benefits in the long run; however, the question remains: is the
timing right?
Number 097
SENATOR ELLIS asked Ms. Hansen to clarify her statement that
contracting would increase costs more than going through existing
public assistance programs. JAN HANSEN said yes, there are areas
in which one in-house employee does the job which under contracting
would have two or three employees do. Ms. Hansen also mentioned
that someone in-house would be required to operate and monitor the
contract. Ms. Hansen informed the committee that most contractors
do not require the same amount of productivity from an employee as
does the division.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER held HB 409.
SENATOR ELLIS passed out an amendment which is a model from Hawaii
which Ms. Hickel supports. He hoped this would be a bipartisan
matter.
SENATOR LEMAN distributed his amendments. He did not feel that HB
409 goes far enough, but it is going in the correct direction in
order to place more money in the pockets of those who need it while
decreasing governmental dependency. He commended HB 409 and hoped
it would be dealt with in a bipartisan manner.
There being no further business before the committee, the meeting
was adjourned at 3:20 p.m.
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