Legislature(2013 - 2014)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)
03/22/2013 08:00 AM Senate EDUCATION
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| Discussion No. 2 on Voucher Systems | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
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+ teleconferenced
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE EDUCATION STANDING COMMITTEE
March 22, 2013
8:04 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Gary Stevens, Chair
Senator Mike Dunleavy, Vice Chair
Senator Charlie Huggins
Senator Berta Gardner
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Bert Stedman
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
DISCUSSION No. 2 ON VOUCHER SYSTEMS
- HEARD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
No previous action to record
WITNESS REGISTER
MARTIN CARNOY, Professor of Education & Economics
Center for Education Policy Analysis
Stanford University
Stanford, California
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented information regarding the school
voucher system.
ACTION NARRATIVE
8:04:09 AM
CHAIR GARY STEVENS called the Senate Education Standing
Committee meeting to order at 8:04 a.m. Present at the call to
order were Senators Gardner, Huggins, Co-Chair Dunleavy, and
Chair Stevens.
^Discussion No. 2 on Voucher Systems
Discussion No. 2 on Voucher Systems
8:04:25 AM
CHAIR STEVENS announced that the only order of business would be
a continuation of the discussion of voucher systems.
8:04:33 AM
MARTIN CARNOY, Professor of Education & Economics, Center for
Education Policy Analysis, Stanford University, presented
information regarding the school voucher system. He posed the
question, "Why would Alaska want a voucher plan?" He noted that
after looking at educational data from Alaska, it seems like the
public education system in Alaska was doing quite well. The
National Assessment of Educational Progress Test shows that
white students in Alaska have increased their 8th grade math
scores by about one-third of the standard deviation - more than
ten points over the past 15 years. That is about the same as the
national average. Alaska students score better than the national
average in reading.
8:07:03 AM
DR. CARNOY related that Native American students do not score as
well and do not seem to be making any progress in math and in
reading, which is similar to national data. Therefore, the main
problem in education in Alaska relates to a specific population,
not the public education system.
DR. CARNOY turned to the issue of standard arguments in favor of
vouchers. He listed the two arguments: increased competition
among schools would raise test scores for all students, and
private schools are more effective than public schools, so
students would shift to the more effective private schools in
order to do better in school.
8:08:54 AM
DR. CARNOY addressed the first argument, evidence that there is
a competition effect. He used Milwaukee as an example of a
"complete choice" city when it comes to education. Twenty
percent of all students use vouchers to go to private schools.
The value of the voucher is somewhat less than the cost per
student. There are also charter schools and magnate schools in
Milwaukee. Only about one-fourth of students attend a
neighborhood public school.
He said the other place he has studied is Chile, which has a
national voucher plan.
He related that in Milwaukee, with a targeted plan of up to 1.85
of the poverty line, a limit of 24,000 vouchers can be issued.
In Chile, everyone receives a voucher; about 47 percent of
children attend privately run/publically funded schools.
8:11:36 AM
DR. CARNOY addressed those two plans in terms of the competition
effect. Milwaukee has had the voucher plan since 1998 when the
Supreme Court ruled that any school, including religious
schools, could use vouchers. In the first year, mostly students
already in private schools received vouchers. The effect on
public schools in the first year showed an increase in student
performance. Since then, there has been no effect on student
performance in public schools. In the first two years, about
5,000 students took advantage of the voucher. Since then,
another 15,000 have used a voucher, and yet, there has been no
additional effect on public school performance in Milwaukee.
He stressed the fact that African-American students, who make up
67 percent of students in Milwaukee and who use about 70 percent
of the vouchers, had lower educational gains than African-
American students nationally after 15 years of voucher plans.
8:13:16 AM
DR. CARNOY showed a graph of math test scores for African-
Americans in Milwaukee, versus the national numbers. He said
black student scores in Wisconsin are lower now than national
scores from 1996.
He addressed Chile's plan, which they have had since 1981. There
is no evidence of a competition impact from their voucher
program. Test scores went up in 2005 after the government spent
a great amount of money on teacher salaries and teacher
training. The government also increased the value of the voucher
for low income students by 50 percent.
8:15:14 AM
DR. CARNOY turned to the issue whether there is any evidence
that private voucher schools do better than public schools with
similar students. He noted that there have been several studies
around the country that looked at that question. All of the
studies have dealt with targeted voucher plans for low income
students. The results show that the effects of voucher plans
have been small, if at all. After a three-year study in
Washington, D.C., the best that could be claimed is that
students gained one-sixth of a standard deviation only in
reading. It was not the lowest income students that had the
gain.
He said the same author of the DC study, Patrick Wolf, did a
four-year study in Milwaukee, in which they matched students in
private voucher schools with public school students. The study
was unable to show any significance in gain for voucher students
over public school students.
8:17:32 AM
DR. CARNOY summarized that he was open to vouchers, but that
there is sparse evidence that they have a positive effect and
they have a high cost. In Alaska, a voucher plan would
immediately cost the state about 7,000 to 7,500 private school
students. A $10,000 voucher, compared to the $16,000 cost per
student in public schools, times 7,500 students who are
currently in private schools, would immediately cost the state
$75 million more. Eventually, more private schools would come
into the market to take advantage of the $10,000 voucher. It
would take 4,500 more students to leave public schools to attend
private schools in order for the state to break even. He
cautioned that a $10,000 voucher in Alaska may not be large
enough.
8:19:41 AM
CHAIR STEVENS asked what kind of oversight exists in private
voucher schools regarding curriculum and teacher certification.
DR. CARNOY replied that Milwaukee private voucher schools are
unregulated. The legislature did not require state testing in
private schools. In order to do the study, the author had to get
private schools to agree to take the state test for comparison.
He noted that, in general, private schools hire from the same
certified teacher pool.
He inquired how many charter schools were in Alaska.
8:21:55 AM
CHAIR STEVENS said there was only one in his district.
SENATOR GARDNER thought there were 30 private schools.
SENATOR HUGGINS said there were about 26. He noted that charter
schools in Alaska are public schools.
CHAIR STEVENS agreed.
DR. CARNOY spoke of religious schools not wanting to be
regulated in Milwaukee. He said the more regulations attached to
the program, the more costly the voucher will have to be.
He did not know why Alaska needed vouchers if they already have
charter schools.
SENATOR DUNLEAVY replied that charter schools in Alaska are
mission schools.
DR. CARNOY asked what "mission" means.
SENATOR DUNLEAVY explained that it is a focus of the school,
such as reading.
DR. CARNOY said states with highly de-regulated charter schools
don't do very well. The more screening and regulation that takes
place before the school begins, the better the school does.
California has the largest number of charter schools - 7 percent
of the school population. Districts schools must be approved by
the district or county and they have about the same performance
as the public schools.
8:25:54 AM
SENATOR DUNLEAVY asked about Dr. Carnoy's thoughts on religious
schools.
DR. CARNOY said in Wisconsin the State Supreme Court interpreted
the state constitution to say that the state could give money to
religious schools. The U.S. Supreme Court also ruled in the
Cleveland Case that public money could go to religious schools
if religious education was not mandatory for students. Some of
the schools in Milwaukee are old, established Catholic schools
and they accepted a limited number of voucher students because
they needed the money. They were very successful with the
voucher students because they were put into a high educational
standards context.
He noted there is a lot of movement of students in and out of
schools. He said new voucher schools did not have the same
success rates.
8:28:51 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS referred to an Alaskan survey that says a
significant number of students who go to college require
remedial training. He also stated that schools are failing
students who live in metropolitan areas. He opined that the
question is how to expend public money. He concluded that
American's schools are trending in the wrong direction.
8:30:56 AM
DR. CARNOY stated that the trend in educational results is
headed upwards on national tests. The trend is also up on
international tests. He thought that Senator Huggins was
concerned about the level of quality schooling. Alaska is at the
national average regarding testing. There is a tremendous
variation from state to state around that average; Alaska is
about in the middle. California does worse than Alaska.
He suggested improving Alaska's school system by looking at
states that are doing better in the public schools system, such
as Minnesota and Massachusetts. He maintained that the successes
there were not due to social class.
8:34:51 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS suggested that there are other parameters of
competition other than the two Dr. Carnoy mentioned. He gave an
example from the Mat-Su School District of an online program
called IDEA, which is the largest correspondence program in the
district. It allowed more students to enroll in the Mat-Su
District. He also said that charter schools are more acceptable
now.
DR. CARNOY responded that the issue is where a district wishes
to put its efforts. There is no evidence that there is a
competition effect from charter school vouchers. Some states are
taking actions that have a positive effect on their schools.
8:39:00 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS asked if Dr. Carnoy was the education
commissioner in California, what top three things he would do to
effect education positively.
DR. CARNOY described California's financial constraints. He
suggested adopting common core standards, having schools
implement them, changing state testing to reflect the standards,
and providing assistance to teachers to conform to the
standards. The most difficult hurdle is to get teachers to teach
to the standards.
8:41:40 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS noted Dr. Carnoy's educational background in
Chicago and wondered if he had any insight into the closing of
over fifty Chicago schools.
DR. CARNOY responded that he was not an expert on Chicago
schools. He said the problem seems to be that the schools are so
under-performing that they warrant closing. He opined that the
main problem in Chicago is that it is hard to get things done
there due to the history of corruption. He did say that there
are very good charter schools in Chicago, as well. He noted that
10 schools closed in Milwaukee and concluded that urban school
systems have difficult issues.
8:43:43 AM
SENATOR DUNLEAVY asked how to define a general voucher.
DR. CARNOY responded that a general voucher is a voucher that
any student is eligible for. A targeted voucher has conditions,
usually based on income.
SENATOR DUNLEAVY he related that Alaska's public school system
was made up of neighborhood schools until about 15 years ago.
Then there was a home school correspondence movement and a law
changed that allowed parents to home school their children. Soon
after, public home school programs were set up to try and
capture some of the home-schooled students. Students were given
allotments to support their individual learning plans,
implemented by parents, by buying courses.
He said there is very little discussion about a statewide
voucher system, but more interest in changing the constitution
to allow public money for religious schools and lessening the
chance of a lawsuit.
8:48:40 AM
DR. CARNOY replied that, nationwide, before the charter school
spread, there were about 2 million students in home schools.
Many home schools turned to charter schools because charter
schools receive more funding than home schools. He described a
couple of charter schools in California.
He asked how Alaska home school students do on state tests,
compared to public school students.
8:50:26 AM
SENATOR DUNLEAVY responded that he did not have that data on
hand, but guessed it would be very similar to the general
population within urban areas.
DR. CARNOY replied that in Alaska state testing is monitored by
the school or a teacher in the home school, whereas in
California, this is not done. He agreed that parents like having
a choice of schools. He stressed the importance of regulating
charter schools.
8:54:08 AM
CHAIR STEVENS said he would try to find the information about
how home school students do on state tests.
DR. CARNOY said he hoped Alaska would send a delegation to visit
states that score high on state tests.
CHAIR STEVENS agreed to follow up on that issue. He thanked Dr.
Carnoy for his time.
DR. CARNOY concluded that Alaska is making gains in education,
but could do even better.
8:55:41 AM
There being no further business to come before the Senate
Education Standing Committee, Chair Stevens adjourned the
meeting at 8:55 a.m.
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