Legislature(1993 - 1994)
01/23/1993 01:05 PM Senate EAH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE AD HOC COMMITTEE ON ETHICS
January 23, 1993
1:05 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Mike Miller, Chair
Senator Drue Pearce
Senator Jay Kerttula
ALSO PRESENT
Tamara Cook, Director
Division of Legal Services
Legislative Affairs Agency
130 Seward St., Suite 409
Juneau, AK 99801-2105
Terry Cramer, Legislative Legal Counsel
Division of Legal Services
Legislative Affairs Agency
103 Seward St., Room 407
Juneau, AK 99801-2105
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-1, SIDE A
Number 001
The meeting of the Senate Ad Hoc Committee on Ethics was
called to order by Chairman Miller at 1:05 p.m. He stated
all members were present, as well as Tam Cook, Director,
Division of Legal Services, and Terry Cramer, Legislative
Legal Counsel.
Chairman Miller directed attention to a memo dated 1/22/93
from Ms. Cramer to Senator Pearce concerning the powers and
responsibilities of the Ad Hoc Committee on Ethics and the
Select Committee on Legislative Ethics. Under AS 24.60.037,
the legislature and legislative committees are required to
comply with the state Open Meetings Act, which means the Ad
Hoc Committee falls under the Open Meetings Act. However,
in the new ethics legislation which passed in 1992, AS
24.60.170, subsection (l) provides the proceedings of the
committee relating to complaints before it are confidential
until the committee determines that there is probable cause
to believe that a violation of this chapter has occurred.
Chairman Miller said the committee was in a "Catch 22
situation," because in order to follow the Open Meetings
Act, the committee would violate the spirit of the new
ethics law, and, if the committee follows the spirit of the
new ethics law, it violates the Open Meetings Act.
Chairman Miller said that when the new ethics law was passed
last year, it was not realized that the old ethics committee
would be gone and there would be a period of time where
there would not be an ethics committee up and running. He
added that it was his understanding that the body is going
to try to expedite getting two Senate members appointed to
the Select Committee on Legislative Ethics.
Chairman Miller advised that he will be formally requesting
funds on Monday to hire an investigator to gather facts on
what actually happened that night, because, as of right now,
the only hard data is a tape recording from the Juneau
Police Department. In any case, there are a lot of
allegations out there, and the committee needs to have some
hard facts so that they can be turned over to the new ethics
committee. He also said he would be contacting Commissioner
Burton of the Department of Public Safety on Monday to get a
list of names of retired troopers that could be contacted in
regard to conducting an investigation.
Number 070
SENATOR KERTTULA requested that in choosing an investigator,
the other members of the Senate Minority be contacted and
informed, and if they have reason for thinking that it isn't
the best choice that they be heard.
Senator Kerttula also requested that the committee take
under consideration the possibility of the vice chairman
taking over the responsibilities of the Rules Committee for
the period of time that the investigation is being conducted
and everything is cleared up.
Number 096
CHAIRMAN MILLER said it was his intention to bring back a
couple of different names to the Senate Ad Hoc Committee on
Ethics so that there would be a selection process that all
the members of the committee could feel comfortable with.
SENATOR KERTTULA said he has been told that a lot of
opportunity is lost rather quickly, and he was pleased that
an investigator would be hired as quickly as possible.
Number 108
CHAIRMAN MILLER noted that it has come to his attention that
there have been four complaints filed, but he has not
received copies of them. However, he pointed out that these
are not four new complaints, rather they are four complaints
regarding the same incident.
Number 125
CHAIRMAN MILLER opened the meeting to questions from the
public.
DAVE DONALDSON, Alaska Public Radio Network, asked if
because of the Open Meetings Act, the committee was limited
at this point to just having an investigator. CHAIRMAN
MILLER acknowledged that was correct, and he said the
investigation was being started to gather information for
the permanent ethics committee. SENATOR PEARCE added that
in order to do a proper investigation in this case, there
were, obviously, other people involved, and that she is very
concerned that anything that is done that brings those
people into an investigative arena where they would be under
oath has to be private and confidential.
Number 150
IAN Mader, Associated Press, asked if it was correct that
the Ad Hoc Committee on Ethics can't bring in witnesses and
have them testify under oath. CHAIRMAN MILLER responded
that the Ad Hoc Committee could hold hearings and ask people
to testify, but they could not be compelled to testify
because the committee lacks subpoena powers. SENATOR PEARCE
added that the committee has the power to ask people to
testify under oath, but the problem is that it cannot be
done behind closed doors by the Ad Hoc Committee on Ethics
because of the Open Meetings Act.
Mr. Mader also asked what kind of activities would be held
up by not having a Rules Committee chairman present.
SENATOR KERTTULA answered that nothing would be held up, and
the vice chairman would be overseeing the day-to-day
management of the committee.
Number 188
TAM COOK clarified that the legislature is subject to the
open meetings statute. The court, by judicial
interpretation, has indicated that it will not enforce a
violation of the open meetings statute against the
legislature. However, in the new Ethics Act which is now in
effect, the legislature has elected to make a violation of
the open meetings statute a violation of the ethics law.
That was not true until it took effect this January.
Essentially, the legislature has brought itself under the
control of the open meetings statute through the mechanism
of giving its own ethics committee jurisdiction over those
types of violations.
Ms. Cook advised that there is great deal that a committee
can do under the Open Meetings Act and comply with that
statute, but they must comply with the notice requirements
and they must go into Executive Session properly. In some
instances, in an investigation such as this, assuming the Ad
Hoc Committee ends up having to go forward with it in the
absence of the select committee being formed, Ms. Cook said
the Ad Hoc Committee, on occasion, could probably invoke the
portions of the open meetings statute that provide for
Executive Sessions to protect matters involving personality
or that may be damaging to a person's reputation. She said
the problem is that it is a fairly narrow protection. And
short of that particular one, there may be all sorts of
matters that they have difficulty getting into Executive
Session properly to deal with.
Ms. Cook said the Select Committee on Legislative Ethics has
been directed to keep a great deal of their investigatory
stage confidential. The statutes, with respect to that
select committee, are far different from the statutes that
apply to another committee of the legislature that is
abiding by the open meetings statute.
Concluding, Ms. Cook said the dilemma that confronts the Ad
Hoc Committee on Ethics today is that they are concerned
that they will not be able to behave in the same way that
the select committee can behave because they do not have the
statutory framework that was put into effect to enable the
select committee to conduct confidential investigations.
Number 230
SENATOR KERTTULA related that there had been a suggestion of
drafting legislation that would allow the Ad Hoc Committee
to opt in briefly with varying powers until the formal
committee is appointed. However, it looked like that would
be delaying and cumbersome, and the major concern was that
it might get the Ad Hoc Committee into an ethical problem.
Number 250
CHAIRMAN MILLER adjourned the meeting at 1:21 p.m.
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