Legislature(1995 - 1996)
01/31/1995 05:05 PM House WTR
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WORLD
TRADE AND STATE/FEDERAL RELATIONS
January 31, 1995
5:05 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Ramona Barnes, Chairman
Representative Gail Phillips, Vice Chairman
Representative Eldon Mulder
Representative Bill Williams
Representative Gary Davis
Representative Gene Kubina
Representative Jerry Mackie
MEMBERS ABSENT
None
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HB 83: "An Act relating to state implementation of federal
statutes."
PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HJR 8: A Resolution relating to mandates and other conditions
imposed on the states by the federal government.
PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HJR 20: A Resolution relating to unfunded federal mandates and
the Conference of the States.
PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HJR 10: Relating to mandates imposed on the states by the
federal government.
BILL HEARING CANCELLED
* HJR 16: Relating to mandates imposed on the states by the
federal government.
BILL HEARING CANCELLED
(* First public hearing)
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 409
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Telephone: 465-3878
POSITION STATEMENT: Offered sponsor statements HB 83, HJR 8
JOHN B. "JACK" COGHILL, Consultant
Coghill, Wilcox & Associates
904 Calhoun
Juneau, Alaska 99802
Telephone: 463-5153
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83
ROBERT SCHMACHER
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83, HJR 8
GENE OTTENSTROER, Self
Post Office Box 1059
Delta Junction, Alaska 99737
Telephone: 895-4805
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83
SCOTT HAMANN
Alaskan Bikers Advocating Training
and Education (ABATE)
Post Office Box 934
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: 283-4481
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 with concern
GARY SUPERMAN, Self
Post Office Box 8425
Nikiski, Alaska 99635
Telephone: 776-8448
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83
MIKE SEAMAN, Self
408 N. Gill Street
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: 283-4970
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83
SEYMOUR MILLS, Self
Post Office Box 51
Sterling, Alaska 99672
Telephone: 262-9289
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83
JACK KREINHEDER, Senior Policy Analyst
Office of Management and Budget
Office of the Governor
Post Office Box 110020
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0020
Telephone: 465-4676
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB, HJR 8, HJR 20
ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant
Department of Health and Social Services
Office of the Commissioner
Post Office Box 110601
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0601
Telephone: 465-3030
POSITION STATEMENT: Offered to look at fiscal note for HB 83
GORDON EPPERLY, Self
Post Office Box 34358
Juneau, Alaska 99803
Telephone: 789-5659
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83
BRIAN WEBERG, Program Director
Legislative Management
National Conference of State Legislators
1500 Broadway Suite 700
Denver, Colorado 80202
Telephone: (303) 830-2200
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HJR 20
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 83
SHORT TITLE: REVIEW OF FEDERALLY MANDATED PROGRAMS
BILL VERSION:
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN, Porter, Kohring, Toohey,
James
JRN-PG JRN-PG ACTION
01/13/95 42 (H) PREFILE RELEASED
01/16/95 42 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/16/95 42 (H) WTR, STA, JUD
01/25/95 136 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KOHRING
01/25/95 136 (H) COSPONSOR(S): TOOHEY
01/27/95 162 (H) COSPONSOR(S): JAMES
01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408
BILL: HJR 8
SHORT TITLE: OPPOSING FEDERAL MANDATES ON STATES
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN, Porter, Barnes, James,
Toohey, Mulder, Kohring
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/16/95 18 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/16/95 18 (H) WTR, STA, JUD
01/18/95 73 (H) COSPONSOR(S): BARNES
01/20/95 104 (H) COSPONSOR(S): JAMES, TOOHEY
01/23/95 118 (H) COSPONSOR(S): MULDER
01/25/95 135 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KOHRING
01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408
BILL: HJR 20
SHORT TITLE: CONFERENCE OF THE STATES
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BARNES, Grussendorf, Foster, Mulder
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/23/95 115 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/23/95 115 (H) WTR, STA
01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408
BILL: HJR 10
SHORT TITLE: OPPOSING FEDERAL MANDATES ON STATES
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Toohey
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/16/95 18 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/16/95 18 (H) WTR, STA, JUD
01/20/95 104 (H) COSPONSOR(S): TOOHEY
01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408
BILL: HJR 16
SHORT TITLE: STATE'S RIGHTS UNDER 10TH AMENDMENT
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) GREEN
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/16/95 20 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/16/95 20 (H) WTR, STA, JUD
01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 95-2, SIDE A
Number 000
The meeting of the House Special Committee on World Trade and
State/Federal Relations was called to order by Chairman Ramona
Barnes at 5:05 p.m. Members present at the call to order were
Representatives Barnes, Mulder, Williams, G. Davis, Mackie and
Kubina. Members absent were Representative Phillips.
CHAIRMAN RAMONA BARNES stated that there is quorum present and
noted the meeting was being teleconferenced to the
Matanuska-Susitna Valley, Delta Junction and Kenai Peninsula.
Number 024
HB 83 - REVIEW OF FEDERALLY MANDATED PROGRAMS
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN, sponsor of the measure, stated that HB
83 is a companion to HJR 8 and articulates that the citizens of
Alaska stand against further attempts, by the federal government,
to encroach upon our autonomy and rights as a state under the Tenth
Amendment to the United States Constitution. It requires that any
commissioner or agency head faced with implementing a federal
mandate or condition must first carefully analyze the mandate for
three specific difficulties before making any efforts at
compliance. First, is the federal policy or legislation an
unconstitutional abrogation of state power? Second, is it in
conflict with state policy? And third, is the federal mandate a
cost effective method in this of dealing with the problem it
addresses. Representative Ogan said the agency head or
commissioner will present his findings in the form of a written
report to the Governor, the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee,
and the House and Senate Judiciary Committees. The two legislative
committees receiving such reports shall review them and are
authorized to research the legality of the mandate. Their
conclusions shall be presented to the Governor, along with specific
recommendations to the executive branch for compliance, modified
compliance, or a legal challenge. He said that the resolution
provides a mechanism to scrutinize efforts by the federal
government to impose unsuitable policy on our state, and to assert
our right to self-determination, a right purchased for us at high
cost by our ancestors.
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS arrived at 5:09 p.m.
Number 070
REPRESENTATIVE JERRY MACKIE inquired as to foreseen legal problems
by not enacting federal mandates and what kind of money we would
lose by not implementing some of these mandates.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN responded by saying that he did not believe
that there was an analysis done. The federal government has
imposed some 192 mandates on our state. He stated that over a nine
year period, environmental unfunded federal mandates have cost the
Municipality of Anchorage nearly one-half billion dollars.
Number 114
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked why are we doing this if the federal
government is not going to give us the money. For instance, if we
don't adhere to the federal mandates in the Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC) that we've got the Environmental
Protection Agency (EPA) managing and different problems there. He
said he would like to look at Medicaid and the other programs that
have financial impact that affect us.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he believes the bill would bring those
sort of problems to the forefront. Currently, there's no modality
to set up and analyze any of this. He says that he's sure that the
federal government will take the loose funding for refusing to do
a mandate into consideration. The federal government has the
option to implement the mandate.
Number 140
REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS stated that he's not aware of any federal
mandate that the state has to spend money on. The state can reject
any of them. There are several requirements that we are given as
a time frame to implement, such as the "helmet law" last year. We
had so (X-number of) many years to implement to it or lose a
percentage of those federal dollars that would not be able to be
spent on highway construction. The U.S. Senate just passed SB 1,
which was their response to unfunded mandates and the House has a
similar bill to be out soon. He believes there are some technical
and legal questions that come up with this legislation.
Number 173
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS responded by saying that she doesn't
believe the state has an option on mandates that come down dealing
with public education or special education. We have to handle
those regardless.
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE inquired if the bill was necessary or if the
Administration has the ability to do this or if we have to give
statutory authority to the Administration to use federal mandates.
CHAIRMAN BARNES said if the Administration were able to do this,
surely they would have.
Number 190
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN says the federal government routinely
"blackmails" us. It's a form of taxation that the federal
government wants to pass a program, but they don't want to fund it,
so they say that the states have to do this otherwise if we don't
do it, we'll be blackmailed and they will withhold funds for this
program or that program.
REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA stated that the legislature is just as
guilty as the federal government by requiring cities to do things,
whether its senior citizen tax rebates we don't fund or whether its
telling school districts to teach something else and then don't
fund them or whether its telling each department to make out
another report, even though they put out a zero fiscal note. I can
tell you there's a cost to it and it coming out of somebody's
budget. Every time we pass a law and direct anybody in the state,
we are really doing the same thing.
Number 230
JOHN B. `JACK' COGHILL, Consultant, Coghill, Wilcox and Associates,
says the bill relieves the policy maker, which is the legislature,
in directing the Administration and the people within the agencies
to give a report so that the legislature can act accordingly. It
puts lawmakers right in the driver's seat. This issue has been
around at least since 1981, and this is the first time he's seen
anyone focus on it to the point where we'll be able to do something
about it.
ROBERT SCHMACHER, testifying from the Mat-Su Borough, said the bill
is something that the Alaska Independence Party has talked about
many times. He said as an individual he feels the bill is a very
important issue for the committee to consider. He urged that the
bill be moved in its current form.
Number 290
GENE OTTENSTROER, testified, via teleconference, from Delta
Junction. He said he feels in general it's a good bill. As the
bottom line, he was concerned about how much freedom we would have
to give up.
SCOTT HAMANN, Alaskan Bikers Advocating Training and Education
(ABATE), testified, via teleconference, from Kenai. He said he
supports the bill but, addressed the problem of implementing the
mandate first and then having review after the year's done. We
need to have a vehicle, in place, to review the program before the
mandate is in place to see if we want the program.
GARY SUPERMAN, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, said he's
surprised at the number of Tenth Amendment resolutions and bills
that have cropped up. He said he questions about the legislative
review being to open ended. He would like the legislature to
incorporate the bill with that of the Senate bill in Colorado.
Number 351
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS pointed out that if there was one thing
that people were talking about during this past interim around the
Kenai Peninsula, it was the legislature taking action on this type
of legislation. She said she appreciates very much the input from
the general public during the interim.
MIKE SEAMAN, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, said he
thinks a bill is needed, but was hesitant to say whether this was
the right way to go.
SEYMOUR MILLS, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, felt that
any bill that passes out would need a review to check to see that
it fits under Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, before
anything ever happens. If it doesn't fit, then it should be
rejected.
JACK KREINHEDER, Senior Policy Analyst, Office of Management and
Budget (OMB), Office of the Governor, said although he had not been
informed about a position pro or con of the Knowles Administration,
he talked with Pat Pourchot, Legislative Liaison, who said that the
Governor certainly supported the intent of these measures with more
flexibility to deal with our unique circumstances. The
Administration has some concern about the requirement to review.
He said apparently every federal program has this requirement and
that the Administration's position is that it may be better to
concentrate our resources on the programs that are identified by
the legislature and the Administration, as the ones with the
biggest fiscal impacts or that present the biggest problems to the
state rather running through the whole laundry list of programs,
some of which may not present a problem.
Number 425
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE made a motion to move Amendment 1, which was
offered by Representative Ogan.
On page 2, lines 13 through 15, delete "The commissioner of
each department or head of another agency in the Executive
Branch shall annually review each program administered by that
department or agency. Insert, "The Office of Management and
Budget shall annually review each program administered by each
department or agency of the Executive Branch."
On page 2, line 16, delete "The commissioner or agency head,"
and insert "The Office of Management and Budget."
On page 2, line 19, delete "commissioner or agency head" and
insert "Office of Management and Budget."
On page 3, line 18, following "governor," insert "and the
Alaska Congressional delegation."
MR. KREINHEDER, OMB, said he feels that on the surface, he sees no
problem with the amendment and that in concept, it makes sense to
let more than one agency do the review.
Number 455
ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant, Department of Health and Social
Services, admits to being a guilty party of high fiscal notes. The
department is subject to federal mandates and it will need
additional resources as to what programs they need to look at if
OMB is going to be directing.
CHAIRMAN BARNES asked for a roll call on the amendment.
Representatives Mackie, Kubina, Williams, Davis, Mulder, Phillips,
and Barns all voted in favor of the adoption of Amendment 1. It
passed unanimously.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS made a motion to move CSHB 83(WTR) out of
committee with individual recommendations.
CHAIRMAN BARNES asked if there was an objection. Hearing none, the
motion passed.
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE was excused from the meeting.
HJR 8 - OPPOSING FEDERAL MANDATES ON STATES
Number 500
HJR 8 was the next order of business to come before the committee.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN, sponsor, stated that HJR 8 is a means of
articulating the resolve of the citizens of Alaska to stand against
further attempts by the federal government to encroach upon our
autonomy and rights, as a state, under the Tenth Amendment to the
U.S. Constitution. A prime example of this abuse, the federal
management of fish and wildlife resources within the state, is
specifically addressed in HJR 8. Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution
is either Congress or the Executive Branch given authority to
regulate or manage fish and game, except to the extent these
resources enter the flow of interstate commerce.
GORDON EPPERLY, spoke in support of HJR 8. He pointed out there is
a little known historical problem with the Tenth Amendment of the
Constitution. As a result of the United States bankruptcy in 1993,
Congress declared that the nation shall be in a state of National
Emergency. When that happens, the Constitution is suspended and
the sovereign rights of the states temporarily cease to exist. It
was under the declared emergency that the U.S. swayed the states to
contract away most of their sovereign powers. Mr. Epperly said
that State of Emergency still exists.
TAPE 95-2, SIDE B
Number 000
ROBERT SCHMACHER, testified from the Mat-Su Valley, in support of
HJR 8. He said it reaffirms the Tenth Amendment Right. Mr.
Shoemaker said he realizes that fish and game tends to be a hot
issue. He noted he has been upset about the position that the
Governor has taken.
There being no further testimony, REPRESENTATIVE MULDER moved and
asked unanimous consent to pass HJR 8 out of committee with the
accompanying fiscal notes. Hearing no objection, it was so
ordered.
HJR 20 - CONFERENCE OF THE STATES
The final measure to come before the committee was HJR 20,
sponsored by CHAIRMAN BARNES. She stated that this resolution
authorizes the state of Alaska to send an official delegation to
represent the people of Alaska at a Conference of the States, in
1996. This conference would be the first formal meeting of the 50
states since 1786. She noted that the conference will convene no
later than 270 days after at least 26 legislatures adopt similar
resolutions and that Alaska would be represented by five voting
members consisting of the governor and four legislators, two from
each body. The action plan to be voted on at this conference will
be called a States' Petition. It will be presented to each state
in the form of a resolution for ratification, then presented to
Congress as the will of the states of the Union. Chairman Barnes
said that since 1990 alone, the federal government has enacted over
40 major statutes imposing expensive regulations and requirements
on state and local governments. This is first step toward
reversing the trend and restoring the balanced system of government
envisioned by the Tenth Amendment.
Number 100
BRIAN WEBERG, Program Director, Legislative Management, National
Conference of State Legislators (NCSL), supports the measure and
added that three states, Kentucky, Utah, Virginia, as of January
27, 1995, had passed this resolution. In six other states, it has
passed at least one house chamber and has been introduced in 19
other states. He said he anticipates more states becoming
interested in this type of legislation.
MR. WEBERG stated that many states have Tenth Amendments on their
agendas and the bill is a way to bring the issues forward in a
coordinated way.
Number 142
CHAIRMAN BARNES added that she's pleased to see NCSL take a more
active part in state's rights' issues.
REPRESENTATIVE ELDON MULDER echoed Chairman Barnes remarks about
the leadership role that NCSL has taken in regards to states'
rights.
Number 155
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked what kind of feedback had NCSL
received from Congress.
MR. WEBERG reported that Congress was very receptive to this kind
of initiative. He stated that a meeting would take place in March,
in Washington, D.C. He said state legislators, with the new
congressional leaders and Administration, will get a good notion of
how they feel and, probably at that point, NCSL would know if this
is going to go forward.
MR. WEBERG also said that since no states' conference of this
nature had taken place in over 200 years, both the press and public
would be focused on this. If a unified opinion comes out of this,
it's going to be heard.
Number 188
MR. KREINHEDER, OMB, offered a statement of support from the
Knowles Administration for HJR 20. The Administration believes
some of the important areas would be welfare reform, education,
environmental protection and health care. In many other cases,
what works for some states will not work in some places.
CHAIRMAN BARNES expressed to Mr. Kreinheder how appreciative she
was of the Administration's support and asked him to convey her
sentiments to the Administration.
Number 214
REPRESENTATIVE MULDER voiced concern that the proposed convention
through this legislation was a viable alternative to a
Constitutional Convention.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS made the motion to move HJR 20 out of
committee.
CHAIRMAN BARNES asked if there was an objection. Hearing none, it
was so ordered.
Number 230
CHAIRMAN BARNES announced that the next World Trade committee
meeting will be a joint committee meeting with International Trade
and Tourism on Thursday, February 9, 1995 at 5 p.m. in the
Butrovich Room. We will hear from John Sibert, Executive Director
of the Alaska Science and Technology Foundation.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to come before the House Special
Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations, CHAIRMAN
BARNES adjourned the meeting at 6:08 p.m.
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