04/15/2003 01:35 PM House TRA
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
April 15, 2003
1:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jim Holm, Co-Chair
Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair
Representative Hugh Fate
Representative Dan Ogg
Representative Mary Kapsner
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Vic Kohring
Representative Albert Kookesh
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 213
"An Act relating to a provisional driver's license and to
issuance of a driver's license; and providing for an effective
date."
- HEARD AND HELD; ASSIGNED TO SUBCOMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 170
"An Act increasing certain motor vehicle registration fees; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED HB 170 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 40
"An Act relating to issuance of a driver's license."
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 217
"An Act relating to driving while under the influence of an
alcoholic beverage, inhalant, or controlled substance and to
presumptions arising from the amount of alcohol in a person's
breath or blood; and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 213
SHORT TITLE:PROVISIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)WEYHRAUCH
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
03/26/03 0640 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
03/26/03 0640 (H) TRA, L&C
03/26/03 0640 (H) REFERRED TO TRANSPORTATION
04/01/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
04/01/03 (H) Heard & Held
MINUTE(TRA)
04/03/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
04/03/03 (H) Heard & Held
MINUTE(TRA)
04/15/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
BILL: HB 170
SHORT TITLE:MOTOR VEHICLE REGISTRATION FEES
SPONSOR(S): RLS BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
03/05/03 0444 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
03/05/03 0444 (H) TRA, FIN
03/05/03 0444 (H) FN1: (ADM)
03/05/03 0444 (H) GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER
03/11/03 (H) TRA AT 2:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/11/03 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
03/18/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
03/18/03 (H) Heard & Held
03/18/03 (H) MINUTE(TRA)
03/25/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
03/25/03 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
04/15/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
BILL: HB 40
SHORT TITLE:REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)LYNN
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
01/21/03 0042 (H) PREFILE RELEASED (1/10/03)
01/21/03 0042 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
01/21/03 0042 (H) TRA, STA
01/21/03 0042 (H) REFERRED TO TRANSPORTATION
01/31/03 0106 (H) COSPONSOR(S): CHENAULT
04/10/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
04/10/03 (H) -- Meeting Canceled --
04/15/03 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
04/15/03 (H) Heard & Held
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE BOB LYNN
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented the sponsor statement for HB 40.
CHARLES R. HOSACK
Deputy Director
Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV)
Department of Administration
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented information pertaining to HB 40.
MARA KIMMEL, Supervising Attorney
Immigration and Refugee Services Program
Catholic Social Services
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 40.
ANGELA LISTON, Department of Justice & Peace
Catholic Archdiocese of Anchorage
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 40.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 03-17, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIR JIM HOLM called the House Transportation Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:35 p.m. Representatives Holm,
Masek, Fate, and Ogg were present at the call to order.
Representative Kapsner arrived as the meeting was in progress.
HB 213-PROVISIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE
CO-CHAIR HOLM announced that the first order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 213, "An Act relating to a provisional
driver's license and to issuance of a driver's license; and
providing for an effective date."
Number 0071
CO-CHAIR HOLM announced that HB 213 would be assigned to a
subcommittee to which the following members were appointed:
Representatives Masek, Ogg, and Kapsner.
[HB 213 was held over.]
HB 170-MOTOR VEHICLE REGISTRATION FEES
CO-CHAIR HOLM announced that the next order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 170, "An Act increasing certain motor vehicle
registration fees; and providing for an effective date."
CO-CHAIR HOLM indicated that HB 170 had been previously heard in
committee and ascertained that there was no further public
testimony.
Number 0160
REPRESENTATIVE OGG moved to report HB 170 out of committee with
individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note.
Number 0169
REPRESENTATIVE FATE objected.
Number 0201
REPRESENTATIVE FATE withdrew his objection upon obtaining
clarification that the bill had previously been heard in
committee [3/18/03] and that there was no committee substitute
for HB 170.
CO-CHAIR HOLM indicated that HB 170 [was reported from the House
Transportation Standing Committee]. He mentioned that HB 170
has a positive fiscal note in the amount of about $12 million.
HB 40-REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE
[Contains discussion pertaining to HB 221]
CO-CHAIR HOLM announced that the next order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 40, "An Act relating to issuance of a driver's
license."
Number 0257
CO-CHAIR MASEK moved to adopt the proposed committee substitute
(CS) for HB 40, Version 23-LS0262\D, Ford, 4/7/03, for the
purposes of discussion. There being no objection, Version D was
before the committee.
Number 0350
REPRESENTATIVE BOB LYNN, Alaska State Legislature, speaking as
the sponsor of HB 40, provided the following testimony:
A driver's license is a privilege, it's not a right.
A state has a right to mandate its own standards and
qualifications, and qualifications such as a
satisfactory score on a written test and a driving
test, age, vision, and so forth. HB 40 merely adds a
qualification that an alien must be legally in the
United States to obtain an Alaska driver's license.
Nothing in the bill would act against the rights of
any legal alien in Alaska. Passage of HB 40 will
accomplish several positive results, as detailed in
the sponsor statement.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN continued:
First of all, "Homeland Security" is a top priority of
the President of the United States, and the governor
of Alaska. Alaska has several potential targets. We
live in dangerous times, and we believe HB 40 will
help lessen some of those dangers. A driver's license
or state identification card is an essential tool,
used by illegal aliens - some of whom may be
terrorists - to solidify their presence here and to
move about freely. This is a clear threat to our
safety and economic security. To be blunt, we need to
fix it so Osama bin Laden, or whatever vaporized
particles may be left of Saddam Hussein, can't get an
Alaska driver's license.
Secondly, state residency is a legal requirement for
an Alaska driver's license. Obviously, illegal aliens
cannot be legal residents of any state, including
Alaska. If Alaska provides illegal aliens with
driver's licenses, the state enables false appearance
of legal residence to an illegal alien, who is, by
definition, ineligible for a license and, by
definition, a lawbreaker.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN testified:
HB 40 will help prevent voter fraud. An illegal alien
with an Alaska driver's license would enable a non-
citizen of Alaska to register to vote under the "motor
voter act." We should protect the integrity of our
Alaska voter rolls.
Third, "identity theft" is becoming a huge problem and
a growing problem. HB 40 will help address that
problem. State-issued driver's licenses have become
the "de facto" primary identity document throughout
Alaska and the United States. In fact, driver's
licenses are so generally requested for purposes
unrelated to driving that motor vehicle
administrations also issue identity cards for non-
drivers.
Number 0494
In fact, the driver's licenses are a "breeder
document" that can provide access to many other
documents, thereby facilitating identity theft.
Driver's licenses are commonly used to establish
identity to law enforcement, employment, credit, and
retail transactions. Once a person has obtained a
driver's license or state ID [identification card] in
one state, it can be used in any other state. Worse,
a driver's license can easily be exchanged for a
different state's license or identity card. An
exchange is faster and requires much less
documentation than a new issue.
As another point, public safety is a major concern for
all of us. One effect of granting driver's licenses
to illegal aliens is to facilitate a larger number of
persons on the road who are typically less experienced
drivers, more often uninsured, and who are more likely
to be hit-and-run drivers when they cause an accident.
That's a problem we don't need.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN testified:
One person, in a newspaper article that came out after
my bill was introduced, stated that folks are going to
be driving whether they are licensed or not, and that
they would not be insurable without a license. Well,
of course. But that doesn't mean that because some
kids drive without a license, or some drunks drive
without a revoked license, that we should therefore
license illegal aliens. I don't think that's logical.
That same person claimed that the federal government
has authority, sole authority, over immigration, and
that somehow applies to whom a state chooses to
license as a driver. We know the [federal government
has] intruded a lot into our independent state's
rights, but hopefully, Alaska can still decide who
gets a driver's license and who doesn't.
Number 0566
In summary, HB 40 is needed to increase public safety,
help establish legal residency, help prevent voter
fraud, and especially to increase protection against
identity theft, and strengthen homeland security.
Once again, nothing in this bill would act against the
rights of any legal alien in Alaska.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked if consideration had been given to
including state identification (ID) in the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN responded that he would consider this as a
friendly amendment.
Number 0684
CO-CHAIR MASEK then agreed with a suggestion from Representative
Ogg that as a conceptual amendment, wherever "Alaska driver's
license" appears in the bill, that "state ID" be included as
well.
CO-CHAIR HOLM indicated that the committee would address this
conceptual amendment later in the course of the meeting.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE inquired about the application of [Version
D], Section 1, subsection (b)(8), saying that the bill implies
that a person who is not a citizen of the United States may not
get a driver's license, and that the only qualification would be
that if one is not a citizen of the United States, then the
state is empowered to not give or renew a driver's license. He
countered this with the example that there are hundreds of
thousands of aliens who come here who are not citizens of the
United States and yet can legally hunt or fish or rent a car
because they have been issued a driver's license from another
country.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN referred to Version A [Section 1, subsection
(b)(8)] which reads, "who is not a resident of Alaska and a
citizen of the United States or a legal alien ...", and he
agreed with Representative Fate that there was an error in the
proposed CS; he apologized to the committee. He stated that,
obviously, someone who is not a citizen of the United States may
qualify for an Alaska driver's license.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE gave the example of his son-in-law who is a
citizen of the United Kingdom and in Switzerland; he plans to
come to the United States to take up residency, but may not
receive his citizenship papers for several years. During that
time, he'll probably need to get a driver's license from
California, or the state he resides in, and this legislation
would not allow for the possibility of his getting a driver's
license [in Alaska].
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN agreed, and said the intent was to stop
issuing licenses to illegal aliens, rather than to legal aliens.
Number 0939
REPRESENTATIVE OGG suggested that on page 2, line 12, the word
"not" be inserted after the word "or".
REPRESENTATIVE FATE suggested that the criterion would be that
one has to be a citizen of the United States in order to get a
license.
CO-CHAIR HOLM suggested that the bill may be correctly drafted,
noting that the word "not" refers to both, as he emphasized,
"who is not a citizen or a legal alien."
REPRESENTATIVE OGG said in order to be very clear, perhaps it
wouldn't hurt to be repetitive.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE wondered if the language was, in fact,
correct.
Number 1071
CHARLES R. HOSACK, Deputy Director, Division of Motor Vehicles
(DMV), Department of Administration, said he understands the
bill to mean that "we may not issue a license to a person who is
either not a citizen of the United States or is not a legal
alien," so a person would have to be either a citizen or a legal
alien before a license could be issued.
CO-CHAIR HOLM asked Representative Fate what was wrong with
making sure that a person was a legal alien.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE reiterated that this meant a person had to
be a citizen of the United States before being issued an Alaskan
license. Representative Fate said that because of the comma, or
the phrasing, the sentence is divided and it can mean "they will
not be issued a license unless they are legal aliens."
CO-CHAIR HOLM asked how the sentence would be understood from an
"either/or" perspective.
MR. HOSACK offered that the word "either" could be inserted
[Section 1, subsection (b)(8)] to clarify that one or the other
[qualification] would need to be met - that a person was either
a citizen or a legal alien.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE suggested that this means that a person must
be a citizen of the United States in order to be issued an
Alaskan driver's license.
MR. HOSACK said the indication is that one who is not a citizen
of the United States "or who is not a legal alien" would not be
issued a license. He said that the phrase "or who is not a
legal alien" could be inserted.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said the first part of the sentence refers
to [Section 1,subsection (b)], saying that his point was that
"the department may not issue a license to a person who is not a
citizen."
MR. HOSACK said he considered the language to have two parts.
He said, "We may not issue to anyone who is not a citizen of the
United States or is not a legal alien," pointing out that the
word "or" is in the sentence. He said it could be turned around
to be phrased in the positive, saying, "We may issue to a person
who is a citizen or we may issue to a person who is a legal
alien."
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said that the word "not" needs to be
inserted before the word "legal".
CO-CHAIR HOLM said that conceptually he agreed, wondering
whether using the language "who is not a legal alien" would make
this clear.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE responded that this would add clarification,
and suggested that the word "either" be included as well.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN suggested that [page 2, line 8] read as
follows: "who is not either a citizen of the United States or a
legal alien."
REPRESENTATIVE FATE suggested that page 2, line 8, read, "who is
not a citizen of the United States or is not a legal alien".
CO-CHAIR HOLM suggested that the clearest phrasing would be "who
is not a citizen of the United States or who is not a legal
alien".
Number 1408
REPRESENTATIVE FATE moved to adopt the foregoing as [Conceptual]
Amendment 2. There being no objection, [Conceptual] Amendment 2
was adopted.
REPRESENTATIVE OGG asked if there was a definition of "legal
alien" in Alaska Statute.
CO-CHAIR HOLM suggested contacting [Legislative Legal and
Research Services].
CO-CHAIR HOLM inquired as to an estimated number of illegal
aliens.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said he didn't know how many illegal aliens
there were to begin with, or how many have applied.
MR. HOSACK responded that DMV does not file any information on
illegal aliens. He said he had a survey from 2000 that
estimated that there were approximately 5,000 illegal aliens in
Alaska. In response to a question from the committee he
confirmed that some of those people would have had a driver's
license.
CO-CHAIR HOLM asked, if that were the case, why an anticipated
fiscal impact wasn't being reflected in the fiscal note.
MR. HOSACK replied that according to procedure, when a person
comes in for the first time, certain documents are requested.
If a person is an alien, an INS [Immigration and Naturalization
Service] document is required to indicate that the person is in
the country legally. Mr. Hosack said he suspects that people
who are illegal aliens with licenses are those who have obtained
licenses from another country. He continued that the
information collected when first issuing a license indicates
"place of birth" on the license. As part of the renewal
process, proof of legal status or U.S. citizenship - such as a
passport - would be required.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked, if a person from another country who was
here on a visa passed his/her test and obtained a driver's
license, whether that person would be able to keep that license
for the same six-month period during which the visa was
applicable.
MR. HOSACK confirmed this to be correct, saying that this
particular bill looks at whether a person is legally in the
country; it does not look at an expiration date or a timeframe.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said he would like to correlate the
expiration date on the driver's license to that on the visa, but
decided to not overly complicate the bill. He said the U.S.
Congress is currently looking at this same issue, although there
has not, as of yet, been much progress.
CO-CHAIR HOLM confirmed that this was probably not the right
vehicle for that issue.
Number 1663
MARA KIMMEL, Supervising Attorney, Immigration and Refugee
Services Program, Catholic Social Services, testified that she
works with approximately 6,000 immigrants, and provided the
following testimony:
September 11, [2001] brought the need to heighten our
security, and we are only wise if we pay more
attention to those who would threaten our safety and
the safety of our loved ones. However, we have to
make sure that our response to September 11, and the
increased threat to our well-being, is an efficient
and effective response.
Alaskans - and all Alaskans, meaning people who are in
the state from other countries who are applying for
status - need to go to work, need to feed their
families, need to make sure their kids get to school,
and need to make sure they have a way to get their
sick kids to the hospital. Unfortunately, whether
someone has a driver's license or not is not going to
prevent them from getting on the road. I know that
first hand. Most of my clients have driver's
licenses. And if they don't have driver's licenses,
they are driving anyway. By refusing to license, and
therefore [refusing] to properly regulate drivers, we
threaten our public safety.
MS. KIMMEL continued:
With all due respect to the intention of the sponsors
of HB 40, this bill does nothing to achieve the goals
it sets out to [achieve]. For example, it does not
strengthen homeland security; it undermines our public
safety by making sure that many of the drivers on our
roads will not be able to get licenses or to get
insurance. Finally, if enacted, the bill does impose
a huge cost, regardless of whether there's a fiscal
note attached. There is a huge cost involved, and we
can't afford this at a time when dollars in the state
are so scarce. On the other hand, there are many
benefits to providing drivers' licenses to Alaskans
who need to drive.
I said that HB 40 does nothing to promote homeland
security. It is a fact that all of the terrorists who
were onboard those flights on September 11 could have
gotten driver's licenses under this bill, the way that
it's stated - so this would have had no effect. In
addition, HB 40 does not prevent identity theft -
which was another one of the sponsor's goals in
promoting this legislation. By providing driver's
licenses to all eligible Alaskans, we make sure that
people who need driver's licenses have them and don't
resort to illegal means, and don't get fraudulent
documents. HB 40 doesn't prevent voter fraud. There
are very serious federal ramifications if you do vote
without authorization, including automatic
deportation. So this is not going to be a deterrent.
Number 1819
MS. KIMMEL testified:
HB 40 threatens public safety, and it increases costs
to insurance companies and also to insured motorists.
Very simply, licensed drivers are tested; unlicensed
ones are not. Licensed drivers are insured;
unlicensed ones are not. Nationally, uninsured
motorists cost $1.4 billion in losses per year. An
average of 14 percent of all accidents are caused by
unlicensed drivers. One in five drivers involved in
fatal crashes are unlicensed.
In terms of the costs, other states have looked at
implementing this type of law. California pays $1.8
million per year to implement this type of "lawful
presence" requirement. A Virginia study estimates
that implementing a similar law will cost them $5.5
million per year and an additional $200,000 in
training costs. Because of the difficulty in reliably
and properly implementing such a law, particularly
given the confusing terminology and the issue of "what
is a legal alien," there will undoubtedly be
litigation over this bill. Therefore, the state faces
another cost. The current DMV policies that are in
place don't allow people who are in the country
without INS paperwork - as the speaker on the phone
said - to get a driver's license. This bill does
nothing to add any additional protections on that
front.
MS. KIMMEL concluded:
On the other hand, there are benefits to licensing all
eligible Alaskans. First of all, we will see an
increase in state revenues because we'll have an
increase in applicants for driver's licenses. There
will be improved public safety because the people who
are driving on our roads will be licensed and will be
tested and will be insured, and that will reduce costs
both the state and to other insured drivers.
I have been dealing with this issue for a couple of
years, prior to this bill [being considered].
Number 1904
CO-CHAIR HOLM referred to [HB 221], which had not yet been
heard, but which considers the committing of voter fraud to be a
felony, and he noted that this issue would be addressed, even
though it wasn't being addressed in HB 40. After receiving
confirmation from Ms. Kimmel that she was familiar with this
issue, he then suggested that aliens are not Alaskans unless
they are legal aliens and that illegal aliens have no standing
as residents in the state of Alaska.
MS. KIMMEL responded that there is no provision, as such,
according to state law.
CO-CHAIR HOLM asked if interlopers were residents, wondering if
anybody who just walks into the state then becomes a resident,
regardless of where that person has come from.
MS. KIMMEL said that in many cases, somebody comes into the
state as a visitor and then decides to get married. After
marriage, that person begins to undertake the lawful procedures
to obtain lawful status.
CO-CHAIR HOLM asked if, by virtue of the fact of getting
married, that person's status is now changed.
MS. KIMMEL said this was not the case. She explained that there
is a lengthy process which can take upwards of a year, and
meanwhile, those people are in proceedings and are not licensed.
She said the most salient point pertained to people who had fled
persecution, noting that there are a lot of people in Alaska who
have fled persecution, who have come here seeking refuge, and
who have applied for political asylum.
Ms. KIMMEL continued that this has been a significant issue with
the [Permanent Fund Dividend Division], and wondered how much
litigation has cost the state regarding the [division's]
attempts to implement a distinction between lawful aliens and
others. She told the committee that she was "not saying that
people who come here who say, 'I want to set up shop and I want
this to be my home,' have authority to be here," but said that
it's important to remember that just getting a driver's license
in this state doesn't grant a person the authority to remain in
the United States; it doesn't confer any legal status
whatsoever. All it will do it is to ensure that Alaska's roads
are safe.
CO-CHAIR HOLM disagreed, saying that this is not a guarantee of
insurance or of one's knowing how to drive. Demands are made to
obtain insurance, but people don't have to comply. All that can
be done is to catch people "when they haven't done it" and then
afford them a penalty. It's no different if someone who is an
illegal alien comes in and gets a driver's license but hasn't
done anything to get the driver's license - "they're still
illegal," he said.
MS. KIMMEL noted that a person has to pass a test to obtain a
driver's license, and that after obtaining the license, there is
a requirement that the person be insured.
CO-CHAIR HOLM said he understood that just because there was a
requirement was no guarantee that the requirement was being met.
MS. KIMMEL said most of her clients would get insurance if they
had obtained a legal driver's license, because that is the law.
She stated, "They are not lawbreakers. They've come here for
many reasons, including fleeing persecution."
Number 2050
CO-CHAIR HOLM said, "With all due respect, there are many folks
who have done that." He added that perhaps it's not in the
state's best interest to have a policy that isn't beneficial to
all of the people in the state who are currently here, and that
to make a policy for people who may show up here one day may not
be in the state's best interests. In this particular case, with
[the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001] as was pointed out
by Representative Lynn, the desire is to make sure that there is
a way to track people who are illegal aliens.
MS. KIMMEL said one of the best ways to do that is with a
license.
CO-CHAIR HOLM responded that perhaps using state identification
other than a driver's license, as was suggested by Co-Chair
Masek, may be a better idea than using a driver's license.
Obviously, the laws are different in differing parts of the
world, so people who come to this country have different driving
capabilities. He cited the example of driving on the left side
of the road in England.
Number 2091
ANGELA LISTON, Department of Justice & Peace, Catholic
Archdiocese of Anchorage, said she shared the concern for
security of the state and of the nation. She said she also
recognized that most immigrants came to this country to flee
oppression and to seek a better life. She pointed out that
often, the undocumented immigrants are among the poorest and the
most vulnerable members of the community, so "it is on their
behalf that we speak." Immigrants, regardless of their status,
will drive. She said she concurs with the previous speaker that
they will drive to meet their children's' needs and that in
their community, public transportation can be pretty limited.
MS. LISTON said she also agreed that legislation such as HB 40
would have had no impact on the September 11 terrorist tragedy.
She told the committee that all of those terrorists had
passports for identification and that this bill would not have
affected them. On the other hand, she suggested that HB 40
could adversely affect public safety in Alaska. She said that
this would exclude people from the state's database, pointing
out that if a person has a driver's license, "we" know that
person is here. On the other hand, if a person is excluded,
then that information isn't available and it's more likely that
people could disappear into the community without anyone
knowing. She suggested that not allowing people the option for
a license would work against public safety.
MS. LISTON suggested that immigrants would want to avoid contact
with law enforcement and that if people couldn't get a valid
license, there would be a larger black market for false
documents. This would result in unlicensed and untested people
driving on the roads. She said people can be at various stages
of documentation and the process can take years. This bill
would make the DMV the mini-arm of the INS. She said that it's
DMV's job to make sure that people know how to drive, know how
to follow the rules of the road, and know the laws. She said it
seemed to be a huge burden to place on DMV - to require staff to
understand the complex immigration laws and to assure that
people have proper documentation.
Number 2231
REPRESENTATIVE OGG asked about the number of people, under this
statute, who couldn't get licensed.
MS. LISTON replied that she didn't have that information.
MS. KIMMEL responded that she could speak to the Kodiak area as
an example. She stated that there are probably 1,500 people on
Kodiak Island who are eligible for a form of relief under the
Nicaraguan Adjustment of the Central American Relief Act of
1977. She said that those people are still in the process of
being assisting towards obtaining legal status, even though they
have been in Alaska or the United States for at least 10 years.
She said that nothing has been done on those application for
political asylum. Those people entered the United States
without inspection - which means that they are undocumented -
meaning that they can't present a visa when they are applying
for a driver's license. Because they are eligible for relief
under the law, they're here lawfully; they will not be deported.
Ms. Kimmel said that there are thousands of people in Kodiak who
would be affected by this bill.
REPRESENTATIVE OGG specified that population may be large but
was not in the thousands, even in consideration of Ms. Kimmel's
comment that the Salvadorian population in Kodiak was sizable.
He acknowledged that the immigration officer, Tim Brady,
probably recognized people, but he wondered what forms of
identification were being used and if there was some sort of
card indicating the process that people were going through.
MS. KIMMEL said that oftentimes there was not such a card
because many people are refugees. In Kodiak, many people were
refugees of the civil war and they fled without documents. In
some cases, people have Salvadorian passports; in many cases,
however, they don't have any form of identification - and that
has been problematic. Sometimes people are able to obtain
different state IDs or work cards issued by the INS; there are
complicated ways of becoming lawful in the United States, and a
simplistic approach won't cover all cases, she said.
REPRESENTATIVE OGG asked how the INS deals with identifying
people, and wondered why they wouldn't just be deported.
MS. KIMMEL responded that the INS doesn't issue identity cards,
but issues a work card, which is different from a green card;
it's called an employment authorization document. She said that
it's the size of a driver's license and enables a person to
legally work in the United States while waiting (indisc.).
TAPE 03-17, SIDE B
Number 2366
MS. KIMMEL continued that when applying for political asylum, a
person needs to provide a birth certificate. She stated that
the INS is not "in the business of issuing identity documents."
However, she noted, the INS does have a huge paperwork trail.
REPRESENTATIVE OGG suggested that people obviously have
permission to be here.
CO-CHAIR HOLM said he understood Representative Ogg's conundrum
that if people are not legal aliens, they wouldn't have
permission to be here.
MS. KIMMEL stated that there is a problem with the definition of
"legal alien."
CO-CHAIR HOLM asked, "Where in the statutes does legal alien
fit?"
MS. KIMMEL responded that there is no Alaska or federal statute
that defines "legal alien."
CO-CHAIR HOLM suggested that the need exists to define "legal
alien."
MS. KIMMEL suggested examining the [Permanent Fund Dividend
Division's] experience with looking into what a legal alien is,
saying that this issue has been and remains contentious and has
cost the state a lot of money.
REPRESENTATIVE OGG asked if the next step would involve getting
further definition on "legal alien."
CO-CHAIR HOLM said it would be appropriate to get a legal
opinion on HB 40 and to clarify the definition of "legal alien."
He confirmed that Conceptual Amendment 1 and Amendment 2 were
previously adopted. He announced that HB 40, as amended, would
be held over in committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Transportation Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:30
p.m.
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