Legislature(2021 - 2022)BARNES 124

03/01/2022 01:00 PM House TRANSPORTATION

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 366 LEG. APPROVAL: AK RAILROAD REVENUE BONDS TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled but Not Heard
-- Invited & Public Testimony --
+= HB 322 AK MARINE HWY SYSTEM VESSEL REPL. FUND TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHB 322(TRA) Out of Committee
-- Public Testimony <Time Limit May Be Set> --
*+ HB 352 CONSULT W/TRIBES TO RENAME GLENN HWY TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
**Streamed live on AKL.tv**
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
            HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                         March 1, 2022                                                                                          
                           1:04 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grier Hopkins, Chair                                                                                             
Representative Sara Hannan, Vice Chair                                                                                          
Representative Louise Stutes                                                                                                    
Representative Harriet Drummond                                                                                                 
Representative Tom McKay                                                                                                        
Representative Kevin McCabe                                                                                                     
Representative Mike Cronk                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 322                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the Alaska marine highway system vessel                                                                     
replacement fund; and providing for an effective date."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHB 322(TRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 352                                                                                                              
"An Act requiring the Department of Transportation and Public                                                                   
Facilities to establish a consultation process to rename the                                                                    
Glenn Highway."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD & HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 322                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: AK MARINE HWY SYSTEM VESSEL REPL. FUND                                                                             
SPONSOR(s): TRANSPORTATION                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
02/14/22       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/14/22       (H)       TRA, FIN                                                                                               
02/24/22       (H)       TRA AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124                                                                              
02/24/22       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/24/22       (H)       MINUTE(TRA)                                                                                            
03/01/22       (H)       TRA AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 352                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: CONSULT W/TRIBES TO RENAME GLENN HWY                                                                               
SPONSOR(s): FIELDS                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
02/22/22       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/22/22       (H)       TRA                                                                                                    
03/01/22       (H)       TRA AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
KERRY CROCKER, Staff                                                                                                            
Representative Louise Stutes                                                                                                    
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  On behalf of Representative Stutes, prime                                                                
sponsor, made comments on HB 322, Version B.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEGAN WALLACE, Director                                                                                                         
Legislative Legal and Research Services                                                                                         
Legislative Affairs Agency                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered legal questions during the hearing                                                              
on HB 322, Version B.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
ALEXEI PAINTER, Director                                                                                                        
Legislative Finance Division                                                                                                    
Legislative Affairs Agency                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information during the hearing on                                                               
HB 322, Version B.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
ANDY MILLS, Legislative Liaison                                                                                                 
Department of Transportation and Public Facilities                                                                              
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Made comments during the hearing on HB 322,                                                              
Version B; addressed the fiscal note and answered questions on                                                                  
HB 352.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ZACK FIELDS                                                                                                      
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  As prime sponsor, introduced HB 352 and                                                                  
gave a PowerPoint presentation.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
JOSHUA ALBEZA BRANSTETTER                                                                                                       
Alaskan Asian Pacific Islander Desi Americans                                                                                   
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided invited testimony on HB 352.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOEL ISAAK, representing self                                                                                                   
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided invited testimony on HB 352.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
LISA WADE, Executive Director                                                                                                   
Chickaloon Village Traditional Council                                                                                          
Chickaloon, Alaska                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided invited testimony on HB 352.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAVID REAMER, Historian                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided invited testimony on HB 352.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:04:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GRIER HOPKINS  called  the  House Transportation  Standing                                                             
Committee  meeting  to  order  at   1:04  p.m.    Representatives                                                               
Hopkins,  Hannan,  Stutes,  Drummond,   McKay,  and  McCabe  were                                                               
present at  the call to  order.  Representative Cronk  arrived as                                                               
the meeting was in progress.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
         HB 322-AK MARINE HWY SYSTEM VESSEL REPL. FUND                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:06:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  announced that the  first order of  business would                                                               
be HB 322,  "An Act relating to the Alaska  marine highway system                                                             
fund;  relating  to  the  Alaska  marine  highway  system  vessel                                                               
replacement  fund;  relating  to   the  Alaska  higher  education                                                               
investment fund; and  providing for an effective  date."  [Before                                                               
the committee, adopted as a  working document on 2/24/22, was the                                                               
proposed  committee  substitute  (CS)  for HB  322,  Version  32-                                                               
LS1501\B, Marx, 2/23/22, ("Version B").]                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:06:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KERRY CROCKER, Staff, Representative  Louise Stutes, Alaska State                                                               
Legislature, on  behalf of Representative Stutes,  prime sponsor,                                                               
explained that  HB 322, Version  B, would move the  Alaska Marine                                                               
Highway System (AMHS)  fund and the vessel  replacement fund from                                                               
the  general fund  to  the state  treasury.   By  doing this,  he                                                               
explained, under  Article IX, Section  17(d) of  the Constitution                                                               
of the  State of  Alaska, the  funds will not  be subject  to the                                                               
constitutional sweep.  He stated  that funds subject to the sweep                                                               
must  be both  available  for appropriations  and  reside in  the                                                               
general fund.   He noted that the proposed  legislation would not                                                               
create dedicated  funds, as the  legislature still  maintains the                                                               
ability  to prorate  these funds  in any  manner.   He maintained                                                               
that it  is also critical for  AMHS to maintain the  endowment of                                                               
money every year for continuity  within the system and not suffer                                                               
the destabilizing effect of a constitutional sweep.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:07:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS suggested  this would deal with money  going into a                                                               
fund, not necessarily how the money would be used in the future.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. CROCKER  responded in  the affirmative.   He stated  that the                                                               
two funds would  be moved from the general fund  to the treasury,                                                               
and then  the AMHS  fund would collect  receipts from  the marine                                                               
highway.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:08:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE  stated that he  objects to the use  of the                                                               
terms "designated"  and "dedicated."   He  argued that  the verbs                                                               
are transitive  and "mean exactly  the same thing,"  and, because                                                               
this has  not been reviewed by  the court system, a  "big chance"                                                               
would be  taken.   He referred to  the memorandum  ("memo") dated                                                               
March   17,  2020,   from  Legislative   Council  which   defines                                                               
"designated fund" as revenue for  a specific purpose; however, it                                                               
could be appropriated for any purpose.   He argued that while the                                                               
fund would  be taken out of  the sweep by changing  the name from                                                               
"designated"  to  "dedicated," it  would  be  left open  for  the                                                               
legislature to reappropriate  it for any purpose.   He questioned                                                               
whether his understanding was correct.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:09:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  noted that the memo  from March 17, 2020,  has not                                                               
been posted  on the  legislature's Bill  Action &  Status Inquiry                                                               
System (BASIS); therefore,  it is not available  to all committee                                                               
members.   He requested that  Legislative Legal  Services address                                                               
Representative McCabe's question.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:09:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HOPKINS,  responding  to  a  request  from  Representative                                                               
Hannan, confirmed the referenced memo  will be distributed to the                                                               
committee and posted on BASIS.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCABE apologized  to  the  committee and  stated                                                               
that the memo had been part of his independent research.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:10:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEGAN   WALLACE,  Director,   Legislative   Legal  and   Research                                                               
Services, Legislative Affairs Agency,  concurred with the general                                                               
description   of   the   difference  between   "designated"   and                                                               
"dedicated" funds.   She explained  that a designated  fund would                                                               
have an established  policy for its intended use.   She continued                                                               
that  the designation  of a  fund  would not  create a  dedicated                                                               
fund, to the extent that money is  required to be used by law for                                                               
these purposes, and its annual  budgeting process the legislature                                                               
would independently  determine whether  to continue to  use these                                                               
funds for  the designated purposes.   In other  words, concerning                                                               
the proposed  legislation, the legislature  would have  the power                                                               
to decide whether  to use these funds as  originally intended, or                                                               
for other  appropriate purposes.   She  advised that  the general                                                               
structure  of the  designated  fund would  not  change under  the                                                               
proposed legislation.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:12:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HOPKINS  interjected  that  the use  of  "designated"  and                                                               
"dedicated" would only  concern the distribution of  revenue.  He                                                               
expressed  the  understanding  that   the  fund  created  by  the                                                               
proposed legislation  would be outside  of the general  fund, and                                                               
appropriations from ferry earnings and  sales would be put there;                                                               
however,  the purpose  for the  money is  not being  specifically                                                               
laid out.   He suggested that the fund would  not be "designated"                                                               
or "dedicated" but simply a fund outside of the treasury.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. WALLACE responded  in agreement, as Version B  would move the                                                               
existing  funds out  of the  general  fund into  a separate  fund                                                               
within the  state treasury,  and no provision  in the  bill would                                                               
modify its designated usage.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:14:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  directed attention  to the  memo in  the committee                                                               
packet from Legislative Legal Services,  dated February 11, 2020.                                                               
He suggested  that this memo  could be discussed while  the other                                                               
memo is being copied and passed to the committee.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:15:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE provided that "dedicate"  means to set to a                                                               
definite  use,  while  "designate"  means  to  set  apart  for  a                                                               
specific purpose.  He reiterated  the argument that the two words                                                               
are the same, and he pointed  out there have been two lawsuits in                                                               
the state on  this topic.  Concerning the [March  17 and February                                                               
11] memos,  he said Legislative  Legal Services indicated  "it is                                                               
possible"  the  court may  find  the  AMHS replacement  fund  not                                                               
subject to  the sweep.   In  other words, he  argued that  "it is                                                               
possible" the fund would be subject  to the sweep.  He questioned                                                               
why the legislature  would do this.  He  expressed agreement with                                                               
putting aside money for the  vessel replacement fund; however, he                                                               
expressed disagreement with the  legislation because it is trying                                                               
"to   dance    around"   the   fact   the    legislature   cannot                                                               
constitutionally dedicate  funds.  He  suggested the  court could                                                               
become involved,  costing the state  money.  He pointed  out that                                                               
the legislature has done this  twice, winning one case and losing                                                               
one case.   He urged  the committee not  to go down  this "road."                                                               
He  expressed  the  concern  that  Version  B  has  no  sectional                                                               
analysis,  no  sponsor  statement,  and   no  fiscal  note.    He                                                               
suggested this  is being  rushed, and the  bill should  be tabled                                                               
until the discussion  is settled, possibly with  an outside legal                                                               
opinion.  He said,  "It seems to me in both  of these letters the                                                               
legal opinion is not what we think it is."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:17:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HOPKINS  commented  that   legal  opinions  are  often  in                                                               
"legalese."   In regard  to the  fiscal note  and the  full legal                                                               
analysis, he  suggested the  bill be moved  to the  House Finance                                                               
Standing Committee  where it  will get a  "hefty vetting,"  as it                                                               
deals  more  with  finance policy  than  transportation  specific                                                               
policy.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:18:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN commented that the  language used in law is                                                               
connotative and  different from  "plain" English,  and transitive                                                               
verbs could  have a different meaning  in reference to law.   She                                                               
explained this often happens in  the practice of accounting.  She                                                               
argued  that memos  written in  2020  would not  reflect the  two                                                               
legal  cases Representative  McCabe  referenced.   She  continued                                                               
that legal  cases concerning "dedicated" versus  "designated" may                                                               
go  back further  in Alaska  case  law, and  the line  is not  as                                                               
bright  as  asserted.    She described  the  committee  as  "non-                                                               
lawyers" debating what the law says.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:19:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE  noted his  experience in  negotiations and                                                               
responded that  lawyers often use  the "plain  language" meaning.                                                               
He  argued  that  the  language  would  not  necessarily  have  a                                                               
different meaning  just because it  is written  by a lawyer.   He                                                               
asserted that  the line is not  bright, rather it is  blurry, and                                                               
"we are dancing on the wrong side of it."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:20:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HOPKINS  expressed  the importance  of  understanding  the                                                               
intent behind the language used  in negotiations.  He argued that                                                               
the intent in Version  B is to make these funds  not subject to a                                                               
constitutional sweep,  and this has  been agreed upon  and clear.                                                               
He suggested  this argument is  not about the intent,  rather the                                                               
legalese.   He continued that  putting the intent clearly  on the                                                               
record in the discussion will help with future discussions.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:20:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES  concurred with  Chair Hopkins, as  she has                                                               
read the March 17 memo.   She restated the memo's descriptions of                                                               
"dedicated" and  "designated" funds.   She expressed  the opinion                                                               
that  the appropriations  from the  fund would  be determined  by                                                               
precedence; however,  this is  not the  issue.   The issue  is to                                                               
simply move the funds from one place to another.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:22:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCABE  argued this  goes  back  to the  original                                                               
question, which needs  to be "hammered out."   He maintained that                                                               
because  the  designated  funds   may  be  appropriated  for  any                                                               
purpose, a future  legislature could use the money  for "a bridge                                                               
to nowhere."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:22:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS deferred to the Legislative Finance Division.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:22:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ALEXEI   PAINTER,   Director,   Legislative   Finance   Division,                                                               
Legislative Affairs  Agency, stated that a  designated fund could                                                               
be appropriated for any purpose.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:23:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. WALLACE, not  having a copy of the March  17 memo, referenced                                                               
the  legal opinion  in the  February 11  memo.   She stated  that                                                               
recent litigation  related to  the sweep  had not  been concerned                                                               
about  whether funds  were dedicated  or  designated, rather  the                                                               
issues  were centered  on whether  the funds  were available  for                                                               
appropriation and  whether the  funds were  in the  general fund.                                                               
In  respect  to  dedicated  funds,  she  pointed  out  in  recent                                                               
litigation  the  Alaska  Supreme   Court  discussed  whether  the                                                               
permanent fund  dividend was  part of  a dedicated  or designated                                                               
fund.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:25:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN  requested  the  administration  speak  to                                                               
this.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:25:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ANDY  MILLS, Legislative  Liaison,  Department of  Transportation                                                               
and  Public  Facilities,  commented  that in  an  early  February                                                               
conference the  governor's chief of  staff referred to  this type                                                               
of legislation  as "conceptual."  He  expressed the understanding                                                               
that "from a conceptual standpoint,  the administration does wish                                                               
to provide  stability to  the Alaska Marine  Highway."   He added                                                               
that, conceptually  speaking, having  these funds not  subject to                                                               
the  sweep,  would  support  stability.   In  response  to  Chair                                                               
Hopkins,   he  expressed   uncertainty  concerning   the  issue's                                                               
progress.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:26:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  noted that  the March  17 memo  was handed  out to                                                               
committee members.   He pointed  out it relates that  a dedicated                                                               
fund  is  a revenue  source  which  is  dedicated  by law  for  a                                                               
specific purpose.   Concurring with Ms. Wallace  and Mr. Painter,                                                               
he stated that this would be a structure for placing money.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:28:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HOPKINS opened  public  testimony on  HB  322, Version  B.                                                               
After ascertaining  there was  no one who  wished to  testify, he                                                               
closed public testimony.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:28:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN  moved  to  report  HB  322,  Version  32-                                                               
LS1501\B,  Marx,  2/23/22,  out   of  committee  with  individual                                                               
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:28:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE objected.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:29:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at ease at 1:29 p.m.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:29:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
A roll  call vote was  taken.  Representatives  Drummond, Hannan,                                                               
Stutes, and  Hopkins voted in  favor of  the motion to  move CSHB
322, Version  32-LS1501\B, Marx,  2/23/22, out of  committee with                                                               
individual  recommendations   and  the  attached   fiscal  notes.                                                               
Representatives  McKay,  McCabe,  and  Cronk  voted  against  it.                                                               
Therefore,  CSHB   322(TRA)  was   reported  out  of   the  House                                                               
Transportation Standing Committee by a vote of 4-3.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:30:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 1:30 p.m. to 1:32 p.m.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
          HB 352-CONSULT W/TRIBES TO RENAME GLENN HWY                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:32:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  announced that the  final order of  business would                                                               
be HB  352, "An  Act requiring  the Department  of Transportation                                                               
and  Public Facilities  to establish  a  consultation process  to                                                               
rename the Glenn Highway."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:33:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ZACK  FIELDS, Alaska  State Legislature,  as prime                                                               
sponsor,  introduced HB  352.   He thanked  the local  historian,                                                               
David Reamer, who brought the concept  of HB 352 to his attention                                                               
by  informing him  that the  Glenn Highway  had been  named after                                                               
Edwin  Glenn, who  had  been convicted  of a  war  crime.   After                                                               
researching  the  topic,  he  stated  that he  had  come  to  the                                                               
realization that  renaming the road  would be  worth considering.                                                               
He displayed  slide 2 and  referenced that  Mr. Glenn was  in the                                                               
military and  had explored  Alaska in  an expedition  with Joseph                                                               
Castner  in the  late 1890s.   This  exploration established  the                                                               
route of  the present-day  Glenn Highway.   He noted  that Joseph                                                               
Castner was the  actual person to establish the  route, not Edwin                                                               
Glenn.  After  this expedition, he noted that Mr.  Glenn had been                                                               
sent to the Philippines and  participated in the Spanish-American                                                               
War.  In  this role, Mr. Glenn was involved  in torturing a local                                                               
government official.   For this  Mr. Glenn was  tried, convicted,                                                               
and court martialed.   He continued that in 1942  the Alaska Road                                                               
Commission  had  renamed  the Chickaloon  Highway  to  the  Glenn                                                               
Highway.  He noted that the  Chickaloon Highway was named after a                                                               
tribal community in  the Matanuska Valley.  He  continued that he                                                               
has  conferred with  local tribal  governments concerning  a more                                                               
suitable name.   He  stated that  the proposed  legislation would                                                               
set a path for tribal consultation to develop a new name.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:37:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCKAY  questioned whether Glennallen  is also                                                                    
named after Edwin Glenn.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS   deferred  the  question   to  David                                                                    
Reamer.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCKAY   noted  the  zero  fiscal   note  and                                                                    
suggested there  would be  a fiscal note  if the  highway is                                                                    
renamed.   He remarked that  road signs and maps  would need                                                                    
to be  changed, and  possibly the  town name  of Glennallen.                                                                    
He  argued  that   to  say  the  fiscal  note   is  zero  is                                                                    
misleading.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS  responded  that  HB  352  would  not                                                                    
rename Glennallen;  however, signs may need  to be replaced.                                                                    
He stated  that the  proposed legislation would  not address                                                                    
this point.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   MCKAY   argued   that   if   the   proposed                                                                    
legislation changed  the name  of the  road, the  road signs                                                                    
would have to be changed.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:39:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  questioned whether the bill  would change the                                                                    
signs.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   FIELDS  deferred   to  the   Department  of                                                                    
Transportation and Public Facilities  (DOT&PF) on the fiscal                                                                    
note.  He  stated that the bill would set  up the process to                                                                    
rename the highway.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:39:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ANDY    MILLS,    Legislative   Liaison,    Department    of                                                                    
Transportation  and  Public   Facilities,  stated  that  the                                                                    
fiscal note represents  the current language in HB  352.  He                                                                    
stated  that the  fiscal  note is  this  way because  DOT&PF                                                                    
would be  directed by the proposed  legislation to establish                                                                    
a process for  gathering input.  In other  words, this would                                                                    
be a  consultation, and the  fiscal note captures this.   He                                                                    
added  that  DOT&PF  gathers  input  all  the  time  through                                                                    
different  processes.    He continued  that  the  department                                                                    
often works in this capacity,  and sometimes there are other                                                                    
efforts   involved;    however,   in   this    case   little                                                                    
administrative  work  is  envisioned.     In  answering  the                                                                    
question concerning signage, he  estimated the signage along                                                                    
the  highway, with  other indirect  costs,  would be  easily                                                                    
over  $2  million.    He   allowed  that  this  is  just  an                                                                    
evaluation in the  central area, as there would  also be the                                                                    
northern  region  to  consider.    He  reiterated  that  the                                                                    
replacement of  signs with a new  name would be costly.   He                                                                    
stated that there is not  a comprehensive amount because the                                                                    
department  would need  specific language,  and HB  352 only                                                                    
proposes a consultation.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:41:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCABE stated  that he  has nothing  against                                                                    
the  idea  because  Mr.  Glenn  was  a  "bad  guy,"  but  he                                                                    
questioned renaming  a highway  without changing  the signs.                                                                    
He referenced the large cost of this.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:42:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN   expressed  the  opinion   that  the                                                                    
proposed legislation  would lay out a  consultation process,                                                                    
and  renaming  the  highway  is  not  an  absolute  foregone                                                                    
conclusion.  She questioned whether  the acceptance of a new                                                                    
name  would need  to  come  back to  the  legislature.   She                                                                    
expressed the understanding  that there is not  a process in                                                                    
law for  consultations concerning renaming  public property.                                                                    
She  questioned whether  the fiscal  note  would be  written                                                                    
after the authorization of the new name.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. MILLS responded that if  the highway were to be renamed,                                                                    
the legislature  would have to  produce a bill  under Alaska                                                                    
Statute   (AS)  35.40,   just   like   any  other   renaming                                                                    
legislation.   He pointed  out the  requirement that  a road                                                                    
can only  be named  by law  is in a  different statute.   He                                                                    
stated renaming  the highway  would have  to come  through a                                                                    
different piece of legislation in the context of AS 35.40.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:44:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRONK  suggested that the town  of Glennallen                                                                    
was named after Edwin Glenn and Henry Allen.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:44:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCABE   expressed  the  opinion   that  the                                                                    
proposed legislation represents "cancel  culture."  He said,                                                                    
"This   is  canceling   out  somebody   who,  when   he  did                                                                    
waterboard, did not  think that it was torture."   He argued                                                                    
that  waterboarding  is accepted  even  today  as a  way  of                                                                    
questioning.    He  expressed  the  understanding  that  Mr.                                                                    
Glenn's  charges  were   minimal  because  the  disciplinary                                                                    
actions  only removed  him from  his command  for one  month                                                                    
with  a fine  of $50.   He  expressed the  opinion that  the                                                                    
proposed  legislation would  not be  needed if  renaming the                                                                    
highway is  "done correctly," and  he questioned why  a bill                                                                    
to have  a consultation  is needed when  there is  already a                                                                    
process in place  to change the names of  roads, which could                                                                    
be done  tomorrow, with  a fiscal note.   He  continued that                                                                    
the proposed legislation would only  "besmirch the name of a                                                                    
long-dead  guy," and  the highway  could be  renamed without                                                                    
creating  a "big  kerfuffle" about  Mr. Glenn  being a  "bad                                                                    
guy" and without using cancel culture.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:47:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS expressed  agreement for  the dislike                                                                    
of cancel  culture and offered  that most people  have "good                                                                    
and bad" within  them.  He stated that Mr.  Glenn is admired                                                                    
for his expeditions; however, he  did not personally cut the                                                                    
trail.  He  indicated that the intention of the  bill is not                                                                    
to cancel Mr.  Glenn; however, he argued that  the few roads                                                                    
and  major landmarks  in Alaska  should be  named after  the                                                                    
most  deserving   people.    He   continued  that,   if  the                                                                    
committee,  "in its  wisdom," decides  to  rename the  Glenn                                                                    
Highway to the Katie John  Highway, with a $2 million fiscal                                                                    
note, then he would "love" to  speak on the floor in support                                                                    
of this.   He continued that the road used  to be called the                                                                    
Chickaloon Highway,  with at least three  tribal communities                                                                    
living  the   longest  in  this  corridor;   therefore,  the                                                                    
appropriate process would be speaking  with these people and                                                                    
creating a consensus.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:48:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCABE commented  that renaming  the highway                                                                    
could involve honoring the  Native Alaskans without "putting                                                                    
all  this stuff  in there  concerning cancel  culture."   He                                                                    
opined  that  no  one  really   knows  what  Mr.  Glenn  did                                                                    
concerning torture, as "we were not there."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   FIELDS   responded    by   expressing   the                                                                    
importance  of informing  the committee  about Mr.  Glenn in                                                                    
the context of the proposed legislation.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:49:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HOPKINS announced  the committee  would hear  invited                                                                    
testimony.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:50:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 1:50 p.m. to 1:51 p.m.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:51:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOSHUA  ALBEZA BRANSTETTER,  Alaskan Asian  Pacific Islander                                                                    
Desi Americans  (AKAPIDA), provided invited testimony  on HB
352.  Talking about the  importance of names, he referred to                                                                    
his  middle name,  which is  his mother's  maiden name.   He                                                                    
stated that  the Filipino  culture is  matriarchal, carrying                                                                    
history in this way.  He  stated that Filipinos have been in                                                                    
Alaska  for  100 years,  and  they  currently number  around                                                                    
25,000.  He  stated that it is important  for this community                                                                    
to not have a highway  named after someone convicted of [war                                                                    
crimes  against  Filipinos]  in a  war  where  over  200,000                                                                    
Filipinos  died.    He  added that  this  history  has  been                                                                    
"cancelled"  from  school  books.   He  concluded  that  the                                                                    
proposed  legislation  is  not  about dragging  a  dead  man                                                                    
"through  the  mud";  instead,  it is  a  way  to  celebrate                                                                    
community  in Alaska.   He  concluded  that a  participation                                                                    
trophy should not  be given to a man  who contributed little                                                                    
to the history of Alaska.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:54:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOEL ISAAK, representing self, shared  that he works for the                                                                    
Department of Education and Early  Development as the tribal                                                                    
liaison and is a member of  Kenaitze Indian Tribe, but he is                                                                    
testifying  on  behalf  of  himself.   He  stated  that  for                                                                    
thousands of  years Alaska Natives  have named  places after                                                                    
geographic features and events,  which is different from the                                                                    
European  tradition.     He  expressed  the   importance  of                                                                    
representing people and  not erasing them from a  place.  He                                                                    
stated  that  the  consultation   process  outlined  in  the                                                                    
proposed legislation would provide  the proper way of coming                                                                    
to  a  decision,   as  it  would  meld   the  two  cultures.                                                                    
Regarding  all  of  the   highways  that  intersect  between                                                                    
Fairbanks and  Anchorage, he stated  that these  routes were                                                                    
determined   by  the   Indigenous   people  traversing   the                                                                    
landscape and  mountain passes for  thousands of  years, and                                                                    
their  knowledge  was used  to  chart  out  the paths.    He                                                                    
expressed support  for the proposed legislation  because the                                                                    
consultation would be  a "good first step."   He argued that                                                                    
the possible cost of the  fiscal note, with the large number                                                                    
of signs,  represents a worthwhile  purpose.   He reiterated                                                                    
that the way  people are represented matters.   He explained                                                                    
that  because the  highway's  previous  Indigenous name  was                                                                    
supplanted  by  a non-Indigenous  name,  this  would not  be                                                                    
erasing anything, but simply bringing back what was before.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:00:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
LISA   WADE,   Executive    Director,   Chickaloon   Village                                                                    
Traditional Council,  provided invited testimony on  HB 352.                                                                    
She said  that she is  speaking on behalf of  the Chickaloon                                                                    
Tribe, and, out of respect for  the other Tribes, she is not                                                                    
speaking on  their behalf.   She expressed the  opinion that                                                                    
the proposed legislation does  not represent cancel culture,                                                                    
rather  it represents  an opportunity  to  show respect  and                                                                    
reconciliation for  the past harms committed  against Native                                                                    
Alaskans during the time the  highway had been created.  She                                                                    
added that  the bill  also addresses  the harms  against the                                                                    
Filipino  people.   She  stated  that  the Chickaloon  Tribe                                                                    
suffered  great losses  during the  time the  road had  been                                                                    
constructed, and  disease and other negative  health results                                                                    
continue  to affect  the Tribe  today.   She explained  that                                                                    
history is not one dimensional;  however, in this context it                                                                    
has  been  told from  one  dimension.   She  explained  that                                                                    
because  of the  glamorization of  people like  Edwin Glenn,                                                                    
Indigenous  people have  become invisible.   She  added that                                                                    
Native   Alaskans  live   with  these   impacts  today,   as                                                                    
Indigenous peoples from this area  have thousands of ancient                                                                    
place names describing  the area, but these  names have been                                                                    
"washed away."  She provided  examples of Native place names                                                                    
in the  area.   She pointed out  that for  spiritual reasons                                                                    
these  places were  named  after  geographical features  and                                                                    
uses, not after  notable people; however, she  added that in                                                                    
a   respectful,  collaborative   government  to   government                                                                    
relationship,  the  Chickaloon  Tribe  would  support  names                                                                    
selected by  other people.   She explained that  when people                                                                    
collaborate,  outcomes are  unifying.   She stated  that the                                                                    
Chickaloon Village Traditional Council  is available for any                                                                    
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:04:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAVID REAMER,  Historian, provided  invited testimony  on HB
352.   He  confirmed that  the town  of Glennallen  is named                                                                    
after  Edwin Glenn  and Henry  Allen.   He  stated that  Mr.                                                                    
Glenn  had overseen  the expedition  and delegated  the work                                                                    
but  had not  made  the  trail.   Referring  to Mr.  Glenn's                                                                    
journals,  he  indicated they  show  a  man who  was  mostly                                                                    
concerned with local gossip.   He indicated the journals are                                                                    
kept  at the  University  of Alaska,  Anchorage  and can  be                                                                    
found online.   He remarked that Mr.  Glenn's history record                                                                    
consists of his  journals, the record of  his court martial,                                                                    
and the highway  named after him.  He stated  that the court                                                                    
records  show  Mr.  Glenn admitted  to  committing  torture,                                                                    
ordering torture,  and overseeing  torture.  He  stated that                                                                    
the torture  referenced was called  "the water  cure," which                                                                    
is  similar  to  current  day waterboarding.    He  provided                                                                    
details of the torture process.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:06:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCKAY called a point of order.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:06:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at ease at 2:06 p.m.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:06:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  recommended that the  account of  the torture                                                                    
be less specific.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:07:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  REAMER  summed  up  the   torture  as  being  extremely                                                                    
painful.   He  stated that  the trial  documents reveal  Mr.                                                                    
Glenn  held the  belief  this was  not  torture because  the                                                                    
Filipino  people were  less than  human.   He explained  the                                                                    
torture at  this time  had been illegal,  and he  quoted the                                                                    
historical  law  code.   He  described  Mr. Glenn's  actions                                                                    
which led  to his court  martial.  He stated  these accounts                                                                    
are  supported  by  letters  sent  back  to  the  states  by                                                                    
soldiers  who were  disturbed by  the  actions, and  records                                                                    
show that  these actions became known  to President Theodore                                                                    
Roosevelt, who  ordered the  prosecution.   It was  noted by                                                                    
other  commanding officers  that Mr.  Glenn did  not receive                                                                    
the punishment  he deserved.   In  conclusion, he  said that                                                                    
the Glenn Highway was not named  by Alaskans but by the U.S.                                                                    
Secretary  of the  Interior, before  Alaska became  a state.                                                                    
He  voiced  the opinion  that  the  name  was more  or  less                                                                    
imposed on the state.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:12:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at ease at 2:12 p.m.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:12:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS  acknowledged that Mr. Reamer's  testimony was                                                                    
interrupted because of technical difficulties.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:12:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCKAY   related  an  apology   for  "getting                                                                    
upset."  He expressed  the opinion that everyone understands                                                                    
about the torture.  He  continued that Edwin Glenn had named                                                                    
Lake Louise  after his wife,  so the  lake would have  to be                                                                    
renamed, too.   He stated  that he  is not saying  Mr. Glenn                                                                    
was  a "good  guy" and  argued that  the testimony  was one-                                                                    
sided, as Mr. Glenn had continued to prosper in his career.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:14:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES thanked the  invited testifiers, as it                                                                    
was appropriate and informative testimony.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:14:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   MCCABE   expressed   agreement   with   the                                                                    
testifiers;  however, renaming  the  highway  should not  be                                                                    
done by  the process laid  out in the  proposed legislation.                                                                    
He said the  legislation is "some sort of  subterfuge to get                                                                    
a zero  fiscal note."   He recommended  creating legislation                                                                    
which  would rename  the highway  with a  $2 million  fiscal                                                                    
note, and "do it the way we have always done it."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS responded  by  expressing the  belief                                                                    
that there is a better name  for the highway.  He added that                                                                    
when introducing  the legislation, he had  not addressed how                                                                    
DOT&PF would  treat the  fiscal note.   He said,  "I assumed                                                                    
that  signs cost  money.    To say  there  is subterfuge  is                                                                    
completely inaccurate."   He continued  that if  the highway                                                                    
is renamed by the  department, the legislature would receive                                                                    
the request for the funds  to be appropriated.  He expressed                                                                    
the desire to  consult with the people who have  been in the                                                                    
area for  thousands of years  before a new name  is assumed.                                                                    
He said, "This is why I wrote the bill up the way I did."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:16:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN  expressed the opinion that  the state                                                                    
should undertake  a renaming  process which  uses Indigenous                                                                    
place  names.   She  recommended that  the renaming  process                                                                    
should  not   use  the  current   power  structure,   but  a                                                                    
consultation  process.    She stated  that,  as  a  lifelong                                                                    
Alaskan, she has  never referred to the  largest mountain in                                                                    
the Interior by the name of  a U.S. President who never came                                                                    
to Alaska.   She  said, "It  will always  be Denali  to me."                                                                    
She  argued that  the renaming  process  should involve  the                                                                    
people who  have been impacted  by the land they  have lived                                                                    
on.  She  continued that the bill would not  be truncating a                                                                    
process but  initiating an  idea, which  will take  time and                                                                    
have a  price tag.   She suggested that individuals  may pay                                                                    
to  change  the   signs.    She  provided   the  example  of                                                                    
Utqiagvik, and  the argument that  the name would  not catch                                                                    
on, but it  has.  She said,  "I applaud a people  who ask to                                                                    
call  what has  always  been for  millennium something  they                                                                    
referred to  it, and with that  I'm going to be  a supporter                                                                    
of the bill."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:18:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   CRONK   referred    to   the   conversation                                                                    
concerning "cancel  culture" as  negative.   If the  name is                                                                    
going  to be  changed,  he  suggested this  be  done in  the                                                                    
positive light of the groups being represented.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS expressed appreciation for the sentiment.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:20:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND commented that  she has learned from                                                                    
the  discussion and  welcomes the  opportunity  for more  of                                                                    
this.   Regarding  the cost,  she said  she has  voted on  a                                                                    
number of  bills renaming  roads and  bridges, and  each one                                                                    
has been specific,  with a specific price for  signage.  She                                                                    
referenced a  recent piece of legislation  which had allowed                                                                    
donations  for the  cost.    She spoke  about  the time  and                                                                    
effort to  rename the street  she lives on and  related this                                                                    
to  the difficulty  in  renaming a  190-mile  highway.   She                                                                    
stated  that  she supports  the  bill,  as  it is  fair  and                                                                    
inclusive.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:22:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS stated that  the intention of the bill                                                                    
is to elevate and celebrate  the inspiring Alaskans who live                                                                    
along the corridor.   He argued that people  should be aware                                                                    
of  the reasons  behind the  consideration for  renaming the                                                                    
highway,  and  the  history  needs  to  be  laid  out.    He                                                                    
clarified that  the process would  not rename every  road in                                                                    
the state,  or require  the consultation process,  rather it                                                                    
would  be to  find  a  better name  for  this  highway.   He                                                                    
remarked  that this  process would  allow for  the inspiring                                                                    
stories  from  people  who  lived in  this  corridor  to  be                                                                    
discovered.  He said, "I would like to do that."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:23:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HOPKINS announced HB 352 was held over.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:23:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being  no further  business before the  committee, the                                                                    
House   Transportation   Standing  Committee   meeting   was                                                                    
adjourned at 2:23 p.m.                                                                                                          

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB 366 - Seward C of C Support.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 366
HB 366 - Seward City Council Resolution of Support.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 366
HB 366 - Alaska Railroad White Paper 2.28.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 366
HB 366 - Fiscal Note version A - 2.28.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 366
HB 352 - Fiscal Note version A - 2.28.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 366 - Sponsor Statement - 2.28.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 366
HB 352 - Fiscal Note version A - 2.28.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Sponsor Hearing Request Memo 2.25.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Sponsor Statement 2.28.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Supporting Document-ADN News Article-David Reamer 10.18.2020.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Supporting Document-ADN News Article-Rick Sinnott 1.1.2012.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Supporting Document-Law Article-Maine Law Review.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Supporting Document-News Article-The New Yorker.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Ver A Sectional Analysis.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352A.PDF HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 352 Sponsor Presentation - 3.1.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 352
HB 366 - AKRR Seward Dock Bonding Presentation.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 366
HB 366 - AKRR Seward Dock Fact Sheet.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 366
HB 322 Fiscal Note 3.1.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 322
HB 322 Leg Finance Fund Source Report--AMHS Vessel Replacement Fund 02.16.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 322
HB 322 Leg Finance Fund Source Report--Marine Highway System Fund 02.16.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 322
HB 322 Sectional Analysis Version B 3.3.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 322
HB 322 CS Version B 02.24.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 322
HB 322 Sponsor Statement 03.03.2022.pdf HTRA 3/1/2022 1:00:00 PM
HB 322