04/17/2001 01:20 PM House TRA
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
April 17, 2001
1:20 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Vic Kohring, Chair
Representative Drew Scalzi
Representative Peggy Wilson
Representative Mary Kapsner
Representative Albert Kookesh
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Scott Ogan
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 12
"An Act relating to the offense of operating a motor vehicle,
aircraft, or watercraft while intoxicated; relating to
presumptions arising from the amount of alcohol in a person's
breath or blood; and providing for an effective date."
- MOVED HB 12 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 244
"An Act relating to a grant of state land to the Denali Borough
for a railroad and utility corridor and a railroad development
project; repealing provisions relating to a grant of a right-of-
way of land for a railroad and utility corridor to the Alaska
Industrial Development and Export Authority; and providing for
an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
SENATE BILL NO. 88
"An Act relating to metropolitan planning organizations and to
establishment of a metropolitan planning organization for the
Anchorage metropolitan area; and providing for an effective
date."
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 235
"An Act relating to the handling of and interest on contract
controversies involving the Department of Transportation and
Public Facilities or state agencies to whom the Department of
Transportation and Public Facilities delegates the
responsibility for handling the controversies."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 12
SHORT TITLE:REDUCE PERCENTAGE FOR DWI
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)KOTT
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
01/08/01 0026 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 12/29/00
01/08/01 0026 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
01/08/01 0027 (H) TRA, JUD, FIN
04/03/01 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
04/03/01 (H) -- Meeting Canceled --
04/10/01 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
04/10/01 (H) Heard & Held
MINUTE(TRA)
04/17/01 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL
BILL: HB 244
SHORT TITLE:RIGHT-OF-WAY TO DENALI BOR. FOR RR/UTIL.
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)JAMES
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
04/11/01 0959 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
04/11/01 0959 (H) TRA, RES
04/17/01 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
BILL: SB 88
SHORT TITLE:METROPOLITAN PLANNING ORGANIZATIONS
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) PHILLIPS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
02/13/01 0356 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
02/13/01 0356 (S) TRA, CRA, FIN
02/20/01 (S) TRA AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
02/20/01 (S) Moved Out of Committee
02/20/01 (S) MINUTE(TRA)
02/21/01 0451 (S) TRA RPT 3DP 1DNP 1AM
02/21/01 0451 (S) DP: COWDERY, WARD, WILKEN;
DNP: ELTON;
02/21/01 0451 (S) AM: TAYLOR
02/21/01 0451 (S) FN1: ZERO(DOT)
03/07/01 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP 203
03/07/01 (S) Moved Out of Committee
03/07/01 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
03/09/01 0596 (S) CRA RPT 2DP 1NR
03/09/01 0596 (S) DP: TORGERSON, PHILLIPS; NR:
AUSTERMAN
03/09/01 0596 (S) FN1: ZERO(DOT)
03/22/01 (S) FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE
532
03/26/01 (S) FIN AT 6:00 PM SENATE FINANCE
532
03/26/01 (S) Moved Out of Committee
MINUTE(FIN)
03/27/01 0819 (S) FIN RPT 3DP 2DNP 2NR
03/27/01 0819 (S) DP: DONLEY, GREEN, LEMAN;
03/27/01 0819 (S) NR: KELLY, WILKEN; DNP:
HOFFMAN, OLSON
03/27/01 0819 (S) FN1: ZERO(DOT)
04/04/01 0933 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 1OR 4/4/01
04/04/01 0943 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
04/04/01 0944 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING
UNAN CONSENT
04/04/01 0944 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME SB 88
04/04/01 0944 (S) PASSED Y15 N4 E1
04/04/01 0944 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS
PASSAGE
04/04/01 0944 (S) OLSON NOTICE OF
RECONSIDERATION
04/04/01 (S) RLS AT 10:45 AM FAHRENKAMP
203
MINUTE(RLS)
04/05/01 0960 (S) RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD
READING
04/05/01 0961 (S) PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y12
N7 E1
04/05/01 0961 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) Y19 N- E1
04/05/01 0962 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
04/05/01 0962 (S) VERSION: SB 88
04/06/01 0875 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
04/06/01 0875 (H) TRA, CRA
04/17/01 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
WITNESS REGISTER
ROGER WORTMAN, Staff
to Representative Pete Kott
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke on behalf of Representative Kott,
sponsor of HB 12.
HEATHER NOBREGA, Staff
to Representative Rokeberg
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Addressed concerns regarding .08 mandate in
HB 12 and HB 4.
RICHARD SCHMITZ, Staff
to Representative Jeannette James
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 214
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke on behalf of the sponsor,
Representative James, on HB 244.
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 214
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 244.
JOSEPH FIELDS
Kantishna Holdings
PO Box 71047
Fairbanks, Alaska 99707
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 244.
JOAN FRANKEVICH, Regional Staff
Alaska Regional Office
National Parks Conservation Association (NPCA)
750 West Second Avenue, Number 205
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 244.
DICK MYLIUS
Resource Assessment & Development
Division of Mining, Land and Water
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
550 West Seventh Avenue Suite 1050
Anchorage, Alaska 99501-3579
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of DNR on HB 244,
discussed concerns with bill.
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 103
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 88.
CHERYL CLEMENSEN, Member
Anchorage Assembly
(No address provided.)
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against SB 88.
TOM BRIGHAM, Director
Division Of Statewide Planning
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities (DOT&PF)
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7898
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of (DOT&PF) against SB
88.
MATT KETCHUM
Wilder Construction Company
11301 Lang Street
Anchorage, Alaska 99515
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 88.
ANNE FAIRCLOUGH, Legislative Chair
Anchorage Assembly
(No address provided.)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against SB 88.
DICK TREMAINE, Member
South Anchorage Assembly
(No address provided.)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against SB 88.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 01-28, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR VIC KOHRING called the House Transportation Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:20 p.m. Representatives Scalzi,
Wilson, Kookesh, and Kohring were present at the call to order.
Representative Kapsner arrived as the meeting was in progress.
HB 12-REDUCE PERCENTAGE FOR DWI
CHAIR KOHRING announced the first order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 12, "An Act relating to the offense of operating
a motor vehicle, aircraft, or watercraft while intoxicated;
relating to presumptions arising from the amount of alcohol in a
person's breath or blood; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0088
ROGER WORTMAN, Staff to Representative Pete Kott, sponsor of the
bill, stated that the alcohol problem in Alaska is significant;
Alaska ranks number five in the nation for alcohol-related
incidents. He indicated that it's imperative that the state
take action by passing HB 12, which lowers the BAC [Blood
Alcohol Concentration], from .10 to .08. This bill is supported
by the Alaska Peace Officer's Association, Public Safety
Employees Association, and Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD).
He remarked that it is crucial that the State of Alaska follow
the lead because the federal government is providing incentives
to states that adopt the .08 BAC standard early. If this
legislation fails, the state stands to lose federal highway
funds at a rate of 2 percent in 2004, 4 percent in 2005, 6
percent in 2006, 8 percent after 2007, and so on. He reminded
the committee that although this bill has a significant fiscal
note, HB 12 could be recognized as a policy decision or issue.
CHAIR KOHRING turned to the effectiveness of a .08 BAC and asked
if there is any substantial evidence to support it.
MR. WORTMAN answered that in his research he found no conclusive
evidence that the .08 BAC mandate, by itself, is effective.
However, coupled with other [drunk driving] legislation, a .08
BAC shows a significant decrease of incidents in other states.
CHAIR KOHRING suggested that Representative Rokeberg's
legislation [HB4] would help make HB 12 effective.
MR. WORTMAN remarked that Representative Rokeberg's bill is an
"omni" bill that is a "catch all for all those situations to
happen simultaneously."
CHAIR KOHRING asked how effective HB 12 would be if it was
passed in tandem with other legislation.
Number 0462
HEATHER NOBREGA, Staff to Representative Rokeberg, sponsor of HB
4, explained that HB 4 encompasses a wide variety of topics on
drunk driving, including changing the BAC from .10 to .08. She
noted that establishing the .08 BAC standard is mandated by the
federal government whether it is done now or in a couple of
years. However, it has to be done by Federal Fiscal Year 2004.
She indicated that HB 12 is accomplishing the same goal as HB 4,
but by only lowering the BAC, HB 12 is only addressing "one
small increment." Therefore, if HB 4 does not become law this
year, and a lower legal limit is still wanted, HB 12 would be
necessary.
CHAIR KOHRING inquired as to the expectations for HB 4.
MS. NOBREGA recalled that HB 4 is in the House Finance
Committee, but she wasn't sure when it is scheduled to be heard.
She said it would be a "stretch" if the bill made it through
this year.
CHAIR KOHRING asked whether Alaska would be subjected to
penalties by the federal government, if the .08 BAC is not
adopted this year.
MS. NOBREGA replied no. However, if the .08 BAC was implemented
by July of this year, "we" would receive an approximately
$850,000 incentive.
CHAIR KOHRING asked for direction from the committee on HB 12.
Number 0581
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON made a motion to move HB 12 from committee
with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal note.
There being no objection, HB 12 moved from the House
Transportation Standing Committee.
CHAIR KOHRING expressed concerns regarding the federal mandate
and the redundancy of [the .08 BAC mandate in HB 4]. However,
he acknowledged that HB 4 might not pass this session.
HB 244-RIGHT-OF-WAY TO DENALI BOR. FOR RR/UTIL.
CHAIR KOHRING announced the next order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 244, "An Act relating to a grant of state land to
the Denali Borough for a railroad and utility corridor and a
railroad development project; repealing provisions relating to a
grant of a right-of-way of land for a railroad and utility
corridor to the Alaska Industrial Development and Export
Authority; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0658
An at-ease was called at 1:28 p.m. The meeting was called back
to order at 1:31 p.m.
Number 0674
RICHARD SCHMITZ, Staff to Representative Jeannette James,
sponsor of HB 244, provided background on the bill. He stated
that in 1998, HB 386 was signed into law. This authorized AIDEA
[Alaska Industrial Development and Export Authority] to engage
in a number of activities. One was to allow AIDEA to establish
a transportation corridor on the north end of Denali [National
Park]. He referred to the maps given to committee members, and
said it shows the proposed corridor going from Healy to the
border of [Denali] park. This project was approved and non-
controversial, he said.
MR. SCHMITZ stated that under HB 386, Kantishna Holdings was
authorized to finance and complete the project. However, HB 386
did not require AIDEA to act on these provisions, so no land was
transferred for access. He said the intent of HB 244 is for the
Denali Borough to replace the AIDEA part of HB 386, to survey
and develop the [transportation] corridor.
Number 0836
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH asked why AIDEA did not follow through
with the provisions in HB 366.
Number 0861
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES, sponsor of HB 244, remarked that
AIDEA was authorized to do the bonding for this project. She
suggested that AIDEA never followed through because no one asked
them to. She also said that Kantishna Holdings, Inc., were not
interested in "obligating themselves to the bonding to do this
because they have other funds available ... that wouldn't be
bonding funds." Although AIDEA is authorized to do this in the
bill, it didn't necessarily say "you must do this." As far as
she is concerned, the land had never been given to them.
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH wondered if the Denali Borough intends to
bond for this project.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied that the applicant, such as
Kantishna Holdings, Inc., who wants to put in the railroad would
use private funds.
Number 0982
JOSEPH FIELDS, Kantishna Holdings, Inc., testified via
teleconference that they are proponents for a northern access
railroad into Wonder Lake. He noted that Kantishna Holdings,
Inc. has been involved in this for a while and has been
supported by the legislature as well as cities and boroughs
along projected rail development areas. He mentioned that the
committee packets contain copies of resolutions that say this
northern access would help provide long-term resource protection
in Denali National Park and better access for Alaska citizens.
He sated that he was pleased that Representative James put forth
this concept that would enable economic development to take
place in the Denali Borough. He pointed out that since this
part of the state is not involved in the gas line, national
missile defense, fisheries, or timber harvest, this project is a
"vital piece" of economic development. He referred to a letter
from the Denali Borough [April 12, 2001] and indicated that the
fully borough support this bill.
Number 1064
CHAIR KOHRING asked how this bill would be a "good enhancement
of economic development."
MR. FIELDS said, "Infrastructure in the visitor industry." He
went on to say that Alaska has many natural wonders but it is
short on infrastructure, especially north of the range. "Our"
particular niche is looking at the independent traveler, "folks
that can come into the bottom part of the state or the middle
part of the state up here and travel on the railroad corridor
independently to the various sites, from Girdwood, Seward,
Hatcher Pass, Big Lake, ... Willow and Nenana." So, "we" are
looking into land tours around this piece of infrastructure that
would go into Denali National Park. He said, "Private capital
... builds the public infrastructure." He mentioned that this
project would provide 350-900 jobs, a very important factor in
Alaska, especially because there are not many projects. It
would also result in private development due to private capital
being placed on public lands.
Number 1167
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH asked for information on Kantishna
Holdings, Inc.
MR. FIELDS explained that Kantishna Holdings, Inc., is a private
corporation established in Alaska, made up of stockholders that
live in the Fairbanks and Anchorage areas. It is a holding
company designed to develop this project. He said "our"
intention is to place between $230-$260 million during the
development of this project. This would be a long-term
investment in the infrastructure of Alaska. He said that was
all the information he could provide since he is talking about
private corporate information. However, he noted that "we" are
a local corporation of Alaskans, with no outside interest.
Number 1218
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH remarked that he appreciates Kantishna
Holdings, Inc., being a private corporation, but "you're here
asking for some state land," he said.
MR. FIELD clarified that Kantishna Holdings, Inc., is asking
that state land be transferred to the Denali Borough; Kantishna
Holdings, Inc., would not receive ownership of the land.
However, they would be able to utilize the land for proposals,
including from the North Denali Access Study of 1995, and the
Denali Task Force of 1994. He alluded that the project would
take place along the Parks Highway. "That's a 300 foot right-
of-way," he said. And "that's what this would end up going off
the edge of the park in actual land," he added. It would not be
that whole area [of the map in the committee packet].
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH wondered what effect [HB 244] would have
on the [Denali] Borough's entitlement for organization of its
landholdings under the state.
MR. FIELD commented that there is a "long, complex history on
the different elements," like in any borough. However, in this
situation, a separate piece of land is being proposed for a
specific purpose, and not a generalized borough. And his
understanding is that it wouldn't be part of "their selection
rights for the borough." However, he noted that he didn't know
their standards or how much land they have to select, if any.
He also noted that it has a "drop dead" date of 2006.
Number 1344
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked how this bill would impact wildlife
and park activities such as recreating, hunting, and trapping.
MR. FIELDS replied that this bill deals with state land, not
Denali [National] Park. However, "we" talked to a lot of folks
here and they "aren't sure that people would say that they don't
want to see a train going through their hunting area." He
remarked that there is limited wildlife in that area as well as
in [Denali National] Park: it's not what "they" call the
"Serengeti of the North." He wondered if a 300 foot right of
way would have a tremendous impact. He stated that bridges
would be used to cross streams, and they would have to be
constructed in the proper fashions. He noted that there is
wildlife "up and down the north and south on the river system."
MR. FIELDS said there would be opportunities to see wildlife
while on the trains, but he does not know how [the railroad]
would impact hunting. He believes there is a very low number of
hunters and trappers in the Denali National Park property.
Furthermore, this location is too far west and south for
connecting with areas that people trap out of such as [Lake]
Minchumina or McGrath Therefore, he does not think there would
be any major impact on dogmushers, skiers, or snowmachiners in
that area. He also said that these people would probably be
using the Stampede trail, the majority of which is north of
where this land is described. He noted that the description [of
this project] was changed to move a mile away from the park
border on the north side.
Number 1433
CHAIR KOHRING inquired about the environmental impacts of this
project. He mentioned that after talking to the sponsor of HB
244, his impression was that this project would be a benefit to
the environment because it would take pressure away from the
existing access and all the people that are "flooding into the
park" via the road.
Number 1452
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES pointed out the existing road on the map
that goes through [Denali National] Park and goes to Kantishna.
Most of the year, only buses and inholders, who have permission
to use the road, use it. She said it is a very narrow and
dangerous road. She also noted that the road is "near
capacity," and that one-third of the people that come to Denali
[National] Park are not allowed on that road because a limited
number of people can be on it. She remarked that her belief is
that anyone who wants to come to a national park like Denali,
which is absolutely beautiful, should be able to.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES stated that she was in favor of a railroad,
not a road. She noted that this bill would be competing with
others who would rather have a road. There have been problems
in this area with people camping out and leaving "junk," and
thus there have been conflicts with bears and so forth.
Furthermore, there have been problems with those who work in the
tourist industry here. These people don't seem to make enough
money to pay for a place to live, so they "live in the bushes"
in the summertime.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES pointed out that a road [allows] continual
access for everyone, including trailers, trucks, and cars
camping along the way, leaving "their junk and stuff around,
which I think is embarrassing and very expensive to maintain."
Therefore, a train that has controlled access would enable all
people, "whether disabled or not, old or young" to view the
park, which would be a great experience. She mentioned that
someday she would like to see train access in and out of the
park by making a complete circle (not where the current road
is). She said having a train is the environmentally friendly
way to do it.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES indicated that one of the ways to control
the "love the park to death" is to put in a train. A train
would enable more people to come in and out of the park.
Furthermore, a train would also be "environmentally more
friendly and not so devastating to the park area, which is one
of our prize areas," she added. Representative James noted that
she is enthused and passionate about this project after working
on it for nine years.
Number 1622
MR. FIELDS referred to the issue of environmental impact on the
park and said that the park is restricted to 10,512 vehicles a
year. He stated that a 1994 study estimated that up to 1,300
park administrative vehicles could be removed if there was new
northern access [to the park]. This could translate into 1300
or more buses or people being able to get into the park as
opposed to administrative vehicles. He noted that Alfred Runte,
author, Our National Parks, and one of the preeminent
environmentalists in the nation, is very enthusiastic about this
project, and even toured [Denali National] Park with "us." He
said he spoke to David Brower, Sierra Club [Executive Director
1952-1969], a couple of years before his death, and although he
wouldn't give an "outright endorsement of a railroad anywhere,"
he did mention that the failure of Yosemite was because the
railroad was taken out in 1941. So, there are a good number of
"solid, rational, environmentalists" who are going to be
supportive of rail access. He also said, "We think we can
accommodate the desires of the visiting public and the need to
protect the environment as well. "
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON described a trip she took to Denali
National Park about seven years before. She said she was
"totally amazed" that there was only one way in and out of the
park. She remarked that this [railroad] would be wonderful, and
would give people a "better advantage to be able to see what
they need to see," and more people could do it. So, it's
"something we need to do," she said.
Number 1737
JOAN FRANKEVICH, Regional Staff, Alaska Regional Office,
National Parks Conservation Association (NPCA), testified via
teleconference:
We are a non-profit dedicated to protecting and
enhancing U.S. National Park System for present and
future generations. We have over 450,000 members of
which 1,000 live in Alaska. NPCA has opposed the
North Denali route since it was first opposed. And
specifically we oppose this bill, HB 244, for the
following reasons.
Allowing the Denali Borough to select state land for
railroad right-of-way development projects seems
extremely inappropriate. The Denali Borough was
incorporated in 1990 and authorized with the following
powers. They're authorized with taxation, education,
planning and zoning. They do not have ... the legal
authority to acquire, construct, or maintain public
roads. Officially, the Denali Borough (indisc.)
itself that it provides few government services and
does virtually no (indisc.) planning or zoning. A
borough with no road powers and minimal planning seems
a highly unusual choice to be receiving such a
(indisc.) of state land. And all the more so unusual
in that this land has previously been off-limits to
the boroughs down in their selection.
It's unclear as to why its (indisc.) to a local
government, and we also think that the borough should
... before they get this grant, if they do get it, ...
develop a land use plan and a economic feasibility
study on demonstrating the (indisc.) of this project
before the state releases the land to the borough.
My second point is that even more unusual in this is
the borough is simply a shell and HB 244 is (indisc.)
allowing a private business to select state land.
This bill provides (indisc.) through private business.
There's no competition. There's no public process.
To us, this really feels like favoritism and poor
public policy. ... [It seems like] the most unusual
way for a land selection to be conducted. It raises
legal and ethical questions.
Furthermore, this will be the third opportunity
Kantishna Holdings has had to establish a railroad
right of way. ... Eight years of time and yet they
have failed to do so. In 1993, they were granted a
five-year conditional use permit from DNR [Department
of Natural Resources] to allow to make a right-of-way
recognizant for this railroad. They never followed
up. They never did so. In 1998, HB 386, again, gave
Kantishna Holdings the opportunity to establish a
right-of-way. This time in association with AIDEA,
and again no action was taken. And so (indisc.) what
has changed to let the state think that now they will
follow through on this and that they now have the
capability to do it.
A third point is that we feel this is very premature.
Granting land to develop a railroad project at this
time, things could (indisc.) [U.S.] Senator
Murkowski's appropriation study, [and] the North
Denali Access, ... a railroad for a road, seems like
they should be considered together or ...it needs to
be decided which project before we go forward with
this particular project as its written here in this
bill.
Also, this project is completely dependent on
extending this railroad through the National Park and
at this point, that seems highly unlikely. The
National Park Service opposes it. ...[And] there's
much controversy against this project. ....
If this bill does pass, we would suggest a amendment,
... we would suggest that if a railroad project does
not go forward by a specified date, than [the] 3,500
acres be returned back to the state and it does not
remain that borough land. It's a return from all the
land that they used not to select a 300 foot right-of-
way and (indisc.) development, with a 300 foot right-
of-way and (indisc.) and relate development land
remain in the borough the way I read....
It was mentioned earlier that this will relieve
pressure on [the] current park road. NPCA agrees that
there needs to be work done ... to relive pressure on
that road. But we don't feel this is the answer.
This railroad will begin just 17 miles north of the
existing park road, and ends in the same place. There
seems little sense in that when other alternatives
such as Fast Denali are being worked on as well.
Contrary to what was said earlier, we believe this
will actually put more pressure on the road. The
primary attraction for visitors to come to Denali is
viewing wildlife. And the wildlife viewing
opportunities from a road or railroad in a north
access are very limited. There is not as much
wildlife there in the summer. It's an important
winter area for caribou. ... Plus a lot of the area
is trees so visibility is not the same as the park
road. So getting people out to Kantishna Wonder Lake,
I think, would just put more pressure on the existing
park road to come back to [the] current park road to
view wildlife, because they will not be satisfied in
that respect on the railroad journey.
To conclude, we just think it's important the
legislature realize that the northern route in the
Denali National Park is a highly controversial
project. It will be closely scrutinized. The major
national group, (indisc.) for common sense [is]
currently listed as one of the ten worst highway
projects in America. This project entails major
development within one of the most famous national
parks in the world. It would be the largest proposed
capital development project in the entire U.S.
National Parks System. Getting state land to a local
government that has no road power it has the (indisc.)
planning and zoning and to a single source contract to
a private business seems preposterous. We are
(indisc.) HB 244. Thank you very much.
Number 2021
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked for clarification that Ms.
Frankevich disagrees with Representative James' contention that
a railroad would be a more efficient way of transporting more
people into the park, in a "sound and clean matter" rather than
expanding the highway.
MS. FRANKEVICH inquired as to what highway he was talking about.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said the road that currently goes to
Wonder Lake.
MS. FRANKEVICH remarked that [NPCA] does not propose expanding
this road either, since it has not reached capacity at this
point. She said that very few people are turned away, although
someday that will probably happen. She said, "getting people to
the same place by a less attractive means, we see no benefit for
that."
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI wondered if she had a solution for a
better means for the elder population, [and] people who want to
visit the park, or if she thought more people should not come.
MS. FRANKEVICH replied, "Of course more people should be there."
And as far as the elderly population, they are well-served by a
bus system that currently goes to a variety of locations, she
said. She also mentioned that there are handicapped accessible
buses that travel the road everyday. She noted that most of the
park's visitors are elderly.
MS. FRANKEVICH pointed out that additional facilities such as a
learning center and visitor center are in the planning process
to be built at the park entrance. More trails and campgrounds
are also being built to increase capacity and provide more
options to use other areas of the park. She also stated that
there have been ideas to build an area south of Denali, up
Petersville Road and along the Parks Highway as well. National
Parks Conservation Association supports all of these
developments, she noted.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI reiterated his question of whether she saw
any benefit to getting more people into the park in a sound
matter. He also asked if her alternative was to get other areas
in the park utilized.
MS. FRANKEVICH said yes, "We think it makes much more sense to
expand on the south side of Denali where more of the population
lives and where the population comes from than an area that's
already served by the Park Road."
Number 2117
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES referred to Ms. Frankevich's earlier
comments. Regarding Denali Borough powers, the borough only
needs planning and zoning powers to transfer this land, which
would then be available for lease. So, even though Denali
Borough does not have road power, it does not make a difference.
She stated that in regard to animals, there are animals, just
different kinds. She suggested that the railroad be open for
winter tourism, when there are a lot of animals in the area.
Skiers could also be taken in. She went on to say, "There's
just lots of things that this train could do on a year round
basis to be able to have access to the park that is better than
the access we have for people today." She remarked that she
understands the concerns on this issue since she has been
listening to it for a long time.
Number 2182
MR. FIELDS commented that that the Denali Task Force 1994 came
up with the South Side Denali Plan, which takes place outside of
the park. However, "it was in the process." He also said that
the National Park System Advisory Board put a resolution forward
calling for the creation of a northern railroad route to Wonder
Lake, which is what is being proposed in this bill. He
mentioned that this project is not park service development. He
referred to budgetary concerns and said that although private
capital going into the park, the overall control of the
(indisc.) would be retained by the park.
MR. FIELDS stated that the biggest issue is how to offset the
500,000 people who come to the park entrance. He indicated that
"we" see ways of helping the park this time of year by taking
equipment to the far end [of the park] and letting them [park
employees] come back via the road. He mentioned that the
railroad might enable the park to open a few days earlier. He
went on to say:
But for management of the park, and access of NPS
[National Park Service] employees and access for the
inholders, we don't propose that there should be no
other access for the inholders. In fact, I've told
both of them that we would support their position of
having a right to use the road as well as the rail.
But I think from a business standpoint, they'd all
benefit from a rail in there.
Number 2253
MS. FRANKEVICH referred to Representative James' comments and
said she did not mean to say because Denali Borough did not have
road powers that they would not be able to do this, since it
would fall under their planning and zoning authorities.
However, it seems appropriate and "hard to believe that with so
little experience" in roads that they could accomplish such a
large project successfully.
MR. FIELDS commented that "they" have a group comprised of
former DOT&PF [Department of Transportation & Public Facilities]
employees of the highest "range" working on this project. So,
he thinks that "they" [Denali Borough] are going to be in "good
hands and have a good critical view of everything that goes on
before they allow anything to happen. They're not going to take
any chances with their hometown."
Number 2299
CHAIR KOHRING noted that there was written testimony in the
committee packets from Linda Pagenelli (ph) of Healy.
Number 2313
DICK MYLIUS, Resource Assessment & Development, Division of
Mining, Land and Water, Department of Natural Resources (DNR),
testified via teleconference:
This bill requires DNR to transfer by September 1 of
this year approximately 46,000 acres of state land to
the Denali Borough for a future railroad towards
Kantishna. In order to reach Kantishna, the railroad
will need [to] continue west across National Park
land. The borough and private Kantishna holdings
would then work to identify and survey a railroad
route across this land and then in 2006, the borough
conveys the excess land back to the state, estimated
to be about 42,500 acres and the borough would keep
3,500 acres.
DNR recommends that a more efficient and equally
approach would be for the borough and Kantishna
Holdings corporation to first identify the corridor,
then ask DNR to transfer the land or even to simply
apply for a right-of-way. The current proposal
requires DNR to convey to the borough a large block of
land only to have the borough convey most of it back
in five years. This results in unnecessary work at
the expense of both the sate and the borough.
In addition, because the railroad route is unknown,
the route could include land outside of the area in
the bill. For example, portions of the existing
Stampede Trail which is probably built along one of
the easiest ways to get to this chunk of land is not
included in the land that closed for transfer to the
borough. In addition, the National Park Service has
invited the state to participate in a comprehensive
study as noticed by access issues and alternatives,
because much the route of this railroad crosses Park
Service land. This railroad can't be built until
there's Park Service concurrence with the (indisc.).
Until the efforts to study north side access is
completed ... (indisc.) designate and transfer a
railroad corridor to the borough and Kantishna
holdings.
DNR has four specific concerns regarding this bill.
Some of these could be dealt with through amendments.
The first one is that the bill causes confusion
regarding how DNR should treat existing municipal
selections (indisc.) by the borough under its
municipal entitlement under Alaska Statute 29.65. The
legislation actually could preclude the borough from
receiving some of this land under its entitlement
because the bill limits the borough's eventual
ownership from this 3,000-3,500 acres, where the
borough has under its previous selections, has
selected more than 3,500 acres. We do not believe
that this is the legislature's intent or the sponsor's
intent. But it is not clear in the bill. Further, it
is unclear whether or not the 3,500 acres ultimately
conveyed to the borough is supposed to be charged
against the borough's remaining existing entitlement.
My second concern is that since DNR assumes that since
the bill directs DNR to take action and gives us only
two months to transfer the land, I believe that it
isn't the intent of the sponsor that DNR would be
excluded or exempted from the state's (indisc.)
finding requirement. However, we'd like to be able to
make this clear so that DNR is[n't] explicitly
excluded from the requirements of AS [38.05.035] and
[38.04.065] simply because ... we've got two months
... to transfer the land.
We can't (indisc.) public decision-making process.
... We'd like the legislature to make that clear in
the bill. It is also unclear what property rights the
bill or the borough would grant against it being a
holding corporation. ... Once the corridor is
identified, the implication in the bill is that
Kantishna Holdings, Incorporated, would have the right
to build a railroad within the corridor. DNR believes
that the legislation must ensure that the citizens of
the state receive some compensation for granting a
private exclusive (indisc.) thousands of acres of
state land.
Finally, our fourth concern is that the bill needs to
clarify how DNR should deal with the existing hours,
(indisc.) which follows the Stampede Trial. Is the
intent that this will be conveyed to the borough or
excluded? Current Alaska Statute [does] not allow DNR
to transport RS (indisc.) to the borough. We can only
transfer them to DOT. Finally, DNR has submitted a
fiscal note on this bill. We would need funding in
order to identify and reserve existing rights that are
on the (indisc.). We would need to do public notice.
We would need to do title check (indisc.). In
addition, you'll notice on our fiscal note that we
have funding requested in 2006, which is when the land
would be returned to the state. And at that point we
would also (indisc.) to do ... research to make sure
the borough hasn't created any third party interest
and that we could take them back. We'd also need to
do an environmental audit to make sure the land was
still in the condition it was when we gave it to the
borough. The state isn't receiving any liability
(indisc.) along with the land. ... That concludes my
testimony and I'm available for any questions.
TAPE 01-28 SIDE B
Number 2506
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES stated that since "we" have to start
somewhere, "we thought it best to start with state land as
opposed to park land." She mentioned U.S. Senator Murkowski's
interest in this issue, and that he has been working with the
National Park Service on it. She noted that the markings on the
map are not necessarily where the railroad would go, and that in
order for it to be built, many "things" would have to be done.
The federal government has appropriated $1.2 million to do a
study for this project. She referred to Mr. Field's testimony
and said he talked about Don Lowell (ph), a former DOT&PF
engineer, who has been hired by the Denali Borough to be an
advisor on this project. She said SB 3 includes a $300,000
appropriation that the state will match, "on that money that's
been sitting" there for about four years.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES remarked that most of the pictures of Mt.
Denali [Mt. McKinley] that one sees, such as a Sydney Lawrence
painting, shows the mountain from Wonder Lake. She noted that
areas such as Talkeetna and Ferry also have beautiful views of
Mt. Denali. She said, "we would expect that they would have a
pretty controlled access to that area." She went on to say that
a hotel and visitor's center would probably be built along with
the railroad, as a way of getting customers there. She
concurred with earlier testimony that much work would need to be
done in order for this project to be complete.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES declared that she is still opposed to
putting more roads into the parks, even though many people would
rather have one, "because they like to drive their cars." She
believes that there should be some controlled access into the
parks, which the railroad would do. She reiterated that she has
been working on these ideas for nine years, and nothing has
happened. She noted that people in the Denali Borough would hire
people who can do the job.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES referred to Mr. Mylius' testimony and
expressed agreement with the suggestion that if a railroad is
never built after land is set aside for one, there should be a
date in which the land goes back to the state. However, she
disagrees with DNR that money needs to be given to the state for
the disposition of land. She remarked that people having money
and jobs is what benefits Alaskans. She went on to say that
Alaska's long-term plan would probably include statewide income
taxes in which the state would get money from jobs created from
this issue to create services for everyone.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES stated that the train would run on natural
liquid gas, which is a very clean fuel. She also noted that the
train would not be a speed train, it would be a tourist train.
She mentioned that there are many types of excursion trains and
that British Columbia has ones that go through "all the
beautiful areas in short periods of time, charging lots of money
for riding on this train," and having the train trip be the
destination. This bill provides the opportunity to put a
facility like this in Denali National Park, which is the "pride
of all of Alaska and all of North America." She said that a
park like this has to be accessible to everyone who wants to see
it. And this project opens this "door" in a "clean and
environmentally sound way."
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES commented that last year while working on a
re-write for the 250,000 acres for the university, which the
governor vetoed last year, one of the prime parcels included in
that list of land was a 90,000 acre parcel, named "Wolf
Township." This would "kill" the access or railroad going into
the park. She said this is "on hold." She remarked that she
isn't aware of what the disposition of the township would be
once we take this out there, since there are mixed feelings in
the Denali Borough about this issue. She mentioned that many
people have cabins out there and that it's a hunting and
recreation area. She said, "If you live by any state land, you
hear people say they don't want anybody else to have it, they
want to have it for their own and that's what the people feel
like about this Wolf Township. She said, Alaska needs
development and "sometimes it just takes local people grabbing
the bull by the horn."
Number 2131
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH commented that he is uncomfortable with
taking 46,000 acres when only 3,500 acres are needed for the
actual right-of-way. He asked if the [Denali] Borough was
initially entitled to 3,500 acres, how a 46,000 entitlement is
justified.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES indicated that she would like [the
entitlement] to be done by DNR, but they won't be involved.
However, Denali Borough has agreed to do it, along with a
$20,000 fiscal note, which is reasonable. She noted that if DNR
did it, the fiscal note would have been much larger. She asked
Mr. Mylius how many of the entitlements Denali Borough has
received.
MR. MYLIUS replied that the Denali Borough received an
entitlement of more than 49,000 acres based on the formula in
state statute. To date, 20,000 acres have been transferred to
Denali Borough, and the remaining 29,000 acres is still pending.
It requires DNR to go through an amendment of its (indisc.) in
order to get those lands to the borough.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES commented that in this particular case, a
"large parcel" is temporarily going back to Denali Borough until
2006. All but 3,500 acres will be transferred back. She
indicated that she did not know the details of this, and that
the Denali Borough would have to answer.
Number 1965
CHAIR KOHRING asked if it was still Representative James' intent
to provide a sponsor statement for this bill.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES stated that she does not think one is
needed, however she wants to include a date that land would be
transferred back to the state if the project is not completed by
the deadline. She indicated that she also wanted to find out
more information on the 3,500 acres that the Denali Borough
would receive. She noted that she could provide this
information in a sponsor statement at the next meeting.
Number 1895
CHAIR KOHRING announced that HB 244 would be held over until
Thursday.
SB 88-METROPOLITAN PLANNING ORGANIZATIONS
CHAIR KOHRING announced that the next order of business would be
SENATE BILL NO. 88, "An Act relating to metropolitan planning
organizations and to establishment of a metropolitan planning
organization for the Anchorage metropolitan area; and providing
for an effective date."
Number 1863
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS, sponsor of the bill, stated that SB 88
passed out of the Senate last week. He explained that the
purpose of SB 88 is to assist AMATS (Anchorage Metropolitan Area
Transportation Study), which only Anchorage qualifies for, by
adding one Senate member and one House member from the Anchorage
area to the AMATS committee. Currently, the AMATS committee
consists of five members: the mayor, two assembly people, and
one appointed position from the Department of Environmental
Conservation (DEC) and one from the Department of Transportation
& Public Facilities (DOT&PF).
SENATOR PHILLIPS commented that more direct representation is
needed from the legislature in the roads and projects process,
because they are delayed. He went on to say that two of the
five appointed committee members are not "held accountable
directly to the people," which he does not think is appropriate.
This has led to a lot of frustration over the past ten years.
SENATOR PHILLIPS mentioned a project that was supposed to occur
in Eagle River and Muldoon last year, but that got "bumped down
or sideways" on the list, which upset a lot of constituents who
were counting on it happening at a certain time. The
constituents then contacted their legislators who couldn't do
anything about the situation, because of the way the process is
set up. He said:
So, in order for constituents to have a more direct
say in what's going on, I propose this bill to simply
add one senator, [and] one house member, and increase
the policy committee from five to seven.
SENATOR PHILLIPS acknowledged that those outside the Anchorage
area might view this issue as an Anchorage fight. However, "It
will be coming to your neighborhood, maybe sometime soon. And I
do not wish this on anybody," he said.
SENATOR PHILLIPS pointed out a letter in the committee packet
from the Federal Highway Administration dated February 22, which
says there are no problems with having legislators on the policy
committee. However, he noted that the administration has
opposed this legislation on a couple of points. The first
concern of the administration was the issue of dual office-
holding. However, Hawaii has legislators on their version of
AMATS. He said Hawaii has "virtually the same constitution as
we do when it comes to dual officeship." He stated his belief
that the Division of Legal and Research Services [Legislative
Affairs Agency] has provided a legal opinion that this bill is
"OK" while the Office of the Attorney General has said it can't
be done. However, he said "it's pretty straightforward."
Number 1710
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER related her experience with some of the
roads in the Dillingham area. She said her understanding was
that legislators get a directive from the local municipality, so
"it's not top down." She asked why this was not working in
Senator Phillip's area.
SENATOR PHILLIPS replied that it was not working because elected
state officials are not directly involved in the process. He
reiterated that the committee consists of the mayor and two
assembly members representing the municipal side, and two non-
elected people, from DEC and DOT&PF, who are appointed by the
governor.
SENATOR PHILLIPS commented that the Glenn Highway situation is
very frustrating. The Glenn Highway needs to be repaved, but it
won't be [until] a couple of years from now. At the end of
session, "the only thing we get is ... a list [that says] gives
us your money and we'll just do what we have to do without no
say." Legislators have no direct say other then to send letters
to the technical or policy committee. This is just "another
layer that makes it real difficult to get your projects
through," he said.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER stated that having three elected
officials on a five person committee means that they would have
the majority vote, and be held accountable by municipal
election. She inquired if "that's still not working."
SENATOR PHILLIPS said no because "generally speaking" there is a
"90-10 split," 90 percent federal funds and 10 percent state
funds. He believes as a legislator representing 30,000 to
40,000 people, [he] should have a "little say" over where these
priorities go. He went on to say:
We're paying part of the bill and I don't mind the
process. It's just that when you're elected and
people come to you and say why isn't this being done,
[and] I say its because of AMATS, they don't
understand it. I'm the guy who's getting the flak,
because I'm the most visible. I'm elected [so] I
should be held accountable for my actions and all I'm
asking is to make me accountable for my actions. Let
me be part of the decision process in setting up these
priorities. You'll hear from DOT[&PF]. They've come
up with another ... excuse why they don't support
[this bill]. I just wish they would say they don't
support it and leave it as is. But anyway, I just
think it's very difficult as a legislator, explaining
... to a constituent, why isn't your road being paved.
Number 1553
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER remarked that she empathizes with his
situation because she has the same problem in Dillingham with
the Wood Tik Chik (ph) Road. However, she would not ask to be
on the Dillingham City Council. She stated that one of the
concerns with this bill is the dual office holding prohibition
in the Alaska State Constitution. She asked if this should be
waived for this situation.
Number 1524
SENATOR PHILLIPS reiterated his belief that the Division of
Legal and Research Services has said SB 88 is not a problem,
while the Department of Law has said it is a problem. He
reiterated that Hawaii, which has practically the same
constitution as far as dual office-holding, has state
legislators serving on its version of AMATS. He described this
situation as a struggle that has been going on for eight to ten
years. He has reached a point of frustration in which he
believes "we got to step in and have some say in this process
and be held accountable for your actions."
SENATOR PHILLIPS suggested that legislators outside of Anchorage
imagine the following:
Your constituents are telling you this, this and this
... for their roads, or harbors, or whatever and [you]
really can't reach in and try to make it right for
them and still get virtually beat up because of it.
... Somebody else is making the decision for you and
the only thing you're doing is approving a list,
handing a check and then they go and do whatever they
have to do.
SENATOR PHILLIPS explained that the President of the Senate and
the Speaker of the House would appoint the legislative members
of this committee. He imagined that the Anchorage caucus would
understand that these legislative members would be representing
Anchorage as a whole, not their "own corner" of Anchorage. He
said there would be "some understanding between the presiding
officer and that member and the caucus as a whole." He believes
this would "add a little bit more credibility to the public,
despite negative feelings towards legislators."
Number 1430
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON remarked that she has strong empathy for
his situation because she feels it as well. She asked if he was
proposing that all areas do this.
SENATOR PHILLIPS answered no, an area is forced to have the
AMATS process when the population reaches 50,000. He said none
of "your" communities will ever qualify, however it is possible
that the Wasilla and Fairbanks areas would.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON questioned if this bill leaves out areas
such as Southeast, where the population is small.
Number 1355
SENATOR PHILLIPS pointed out that Representative Wilson has a
direct link to DOT&PF in dealing with projects, while he has
"another layer to work through." For example, when projects in
Muldoon and Eagle River were delayed last October, many angry
people called him. In turn, he called DOT&PF who told him to
talk to AMATS. If AMATS did not exist, he could deal directly
with the commissioner or regional officer for the Southcentral
region.
SENATOR PHILLIPS informed the committee that AMATS meetings are
not consistent and have been canceled and moved. He indicated
that having a legislator at these policy committees would help
ensure that a meeting isn't canceled. He also stated that AMATS
has lost "a lot of credibility with every folks in our area."
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON remarked that although she doesn't have
this "middle" problem, she still has the same problem.
Therefore, she is not sure if this legislation is the way to
resolve the issue.
SENATOR PHILLIPS responded to these remarks by saying that
before AMATS, when there were projects, one would call the
DOT&PF central office and the commissioner who would work on the
project list. He stated that since AMATS was started, 10 to 12
years ago, "you have to go through another maze to get through
where you should be." He reiterated that areas such as
Representative Wilson's district do not have to deal with this
other part.
Number 1223
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if Hawaii has a prohibition on
legislators serving in multiple positions.
SENATOR PHILLIPS interjected that Hawaii has no prohibition on
legislators serving on its version of the AMATS policy
committee.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI wondered whether Senator Phillips would
rather get rid of AMATS.
SENATOR PHILLIPS said that he has talked about that possibility.
However, AMATS is an executive order agreed between the federal
and state governments. He said, "I would love to get rid of it,
frankly, and just deal with DOT[&PF] directly on a daily basis."
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked if there has been any benefit to the
AMATS board.
SENATOR PHILLIPS replied that he is "one very frustrated
individual." However, if he had to put a "positive spring" on
it, he would say the AMATS committee has probably led to a
"little bit better planning" than before. But it's getting to a
point where they are planning things "literally to death" and
they are not getting the project done. For example, the Glenn
Highway is in bad shape, and it won't be repaved for another
couple of years.
SENATOR PHILLIPS reiterated to the committee that he knows this
is an Anchorage fight. However, it's possible that the Mat-Su
Valley and Fairbanks areas are close to getting this mandated as
well. He believes "we" should have more say in what happens.
He noted that he would not want to be on the policy committee
himself.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI pondered whether this board is somehow
delaying or causing a delay of projects to happen or is it a
lack of funding. However, if AMATS is a board that recommends
projects, a lot of things may be out of their hands.
SENATOR PHILLIPS concurred, but said that there are many
projects that occur in his area that the community does not ask
for. He referred to one project in which no one from his
community requested. It was discovered that "someplace deep in
DOT[&PF] in the Anchorage area made the request."
An at-ease was called at 2:42 p.m. The House Transportation
Standing Committee meeting was called back to order at 2:44 p.m.
TAPE 01-29 SIDE A
Number 0054
CHERYL CLEMENSEN, Assembly Member, East Anchorage, testified via
teleconference:
I've been on the [Anchorage] Assembly for about eight
years, AMATS for two years, and I was on AMATS when
similar legislation for this first came up three or
four years ago. This kind of legislation has never
been requested by the local governing body. As a
matter of fact, the local governing body has gone on
record every year as opposing the change to the AMATS
or to the Metropolitan planning office which is the
(indisc.) of the Metropolitan Planning Organization
[MPO]. It came up the first year, and I can't
remember if it was three or four years ago, the
Anchorage Assembly held a public hearing of the issue
and the House Transportation [Standing] Committee
participated via teleconference. Several people from
the community participated and testified. There was
not one person who testified in favor of this.
We have never, at the local level, received any
letter, e-mail, [or] telephone calls that I'm aware of
or testimony asking that we increase the size of
AMATS, that we add another layer of participation
level of government.... While people are somewhat
frustrated with AMATS as they are with any other
process that involves public money, no one has ever
suggested that this would be a proper fix for it,
except the members of the legislature. And I
understand that frustration. But, we are extremely
frustrated at this end [because] year after year after
year [we] have to be going through the same
conversation.
To be honest with you, legislators have the same
opportunity that members of the public have to comment
on the plans and the things that come before us. I
know Senator Donley has routinely sent in letters and
comments on the plans. And he has been effective in
getting some changes or getting things moved up on the
list.... When AMATS took up 15th Avenue, a couple of
years ago, I was on AMATS ... and several legislators
from the area did fly in from Juneau so that they
could testify and be present at that meeting. But
other than that meeting, I have not seen legislators
participate even when they are in town.
AMATS meets every month. They meet on a regular
basis. They take public testimony. It's important
for people to be able to be here in advance, to be
able to attend work sessions or to be able to be
(indisc.). We have a very excellent staff. We have
an AMATS Coordinator and that's all he does; works on
AMATS projects, AMATS funding, AMATS prioritization,
all those sort of things. He's part of our planning
department. He coordinates with the comprehensive
plan and the other (indisc.) that are taking place
here in town.
I think the bottom line of what I'm trying to tell you
is that the system is not broken. No one is asking
for it to be fixed. I also would like to point out
that I believe that this action does violate the
intent of Congress when they said that metropolitan
planning organizations are intended for local control
and for local decision.
This [bill] is not local control and with all due
respect to Senator Phillips, when I hear him testify
about the frustration about this particular project,
[what] he doesn't understand ... [is that] we're
dealing with a thick pot of money and project lists
... every single year. Sometimes things that were a
priority one year, move over a bit because something
else [that] is a higher priority comes up.
For example, we have now built an elementary school
along Abbot Road, and we're trying to figure out how
to fund the upgraded road whereas before that was a
project that wouldn't of received so much attention
because it didn't have the amount of traffic that it
is now. I'm very concerned about this and I would ask
you to please understand that (indisc.) are a step
forward for local governing body, for local control
and that the local governing body continues to oppose
these types of legislation. And then you would ...
be out of compliance with the United States Code 23
USE 134. And I have a lot of concerns about that.
Number 0372
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI stated that he supports local control.
However, he asked her to respond to Senator Phillips's concerns
or frustrations regarding "disgruntled individuals who didn't
get their way or projects that appear not [to be] on the
horizon, that are getting funded". He said that when
[legislators] are in Juneau, they get a "different story" than
when they're home.
MS. CLEMENSEN replied that the project list goes through a
public process in which the projects are ranked, and the
[Anchorage] Assembly as a whole votes on the list. She
explained that AMATS representatives are required to represent
the vote of the entire body on the prioritization of the list.
Furthermore, the mayor follows this process as well. This
represents ultimate control in the most basic form other than
"community by community actually having a seat on the AMATS
policy committee." Public hearings are a part of this process
and thus she doesn't believe it is a good idea to have a
legislator as a committee member when he or she would be out of
town for four months of the year and wouldn't be "following the
same sort of input that we have." She remarked that she did not
know which projects Senator Phillips was referring to that were
added by AMATS and that did not go through a public process.
Number 0489
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI suggested that if legislators were
involved in the process for the other eight months of the year,
it might eliminate some of the frustration. It would also
enable legislators to have a better understanding of projects.
He asked Ms. Clemensen if she thought there was any benefit to
having legislators on the committee, not to dominate, but to
understand the process.
MS. CLEMENSEN replied:
I believe ... that would be about as helpful as having
legislators on the school board because they fund a
large part of our school district budget, yet they
have no direct say in how that money is spent or even
what school capital construction projects are funded.
... This is a separation of powers issue. Congress
clearly meant for local governing bodies to have this
control. We do have a control. We have a very
detailed public process. We are not asking for help
in fixing it and I can't think of a single time when a
bigger government body made a better (indisc.)
government body.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said he was thinking of a more "informed
decision rather than exercising a higher level of government."
CHAIR KOHRING stated his intent to entertain a motion for SB 88,
if a committee member cared to do so.
Number 0667
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH objected to an attempt to move the bill
out of committee because there were still people waiting to
testify, and he wanted to hear from DOT&PF. He said, "Trying to
push it because of a deadline is not fair to anyone," and he
would like to hold the bill over to the next meeting
CHAIR KOHRING asked if the will of committee was to hear the
rest of the testimony and take the bill up for consideration at
the next meeting. He apologized for rushing the process.
Number 0727
THOMAS BRIGHAM, Director, Division of Statewide Planning,
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities, remarked that
he understood Senator Phillip's frustration since it is similar
to anyone's frustration when wanting a project to begin and
somehow "our process or in this case, the MPO's [Metropolitan
Planning Organization] process is kind of standing in the way."
However, SB 88 is not the mechanism, at least for the Anchorage
area, to appropriately deal with this issue.
MR. BRIGHAM explained that federal law established MPO more than
20 years ago as a congressional way to deal with the conflict
between local and state government in how these federal
transportation dollars were spent. He described this conflict
as being:
Big cities in particular who were saying, "give us the
money, we know how to spend it, this a local issue,"
... and the states on the other hand were basically
saying "no, give us the money we see the big picture
and we know where to go...."
MR. BRIGHAM remarked that this conflict has not gone away. The
MPO process applies to communities in an urbanized area with a
population of at least 50,000. He mentioned the possibility of
Wasilla, Mat-Su Valley, or Fairbanks becoming MPO's as a result
of the 2000 census. He noted that Anchorage is "way beyond the
threshold and the basic idea is that what the MPO or in this
case AMATS is, is a joint local/federal decision-making body
that together determines where this funding should be spent."
He said it is an additional layer, but one that was established
by Congress; all federal money has to go through the MPO to be
spent in the Anchorage urban area.
Number 0891
MR. BRIGHAM declared that [DOT&PF] does not support SB 88
because it diminishes local control; it upsets the balance
between state and local roles in deciding how money is spent in
the Anchorage urban area. He noted that since AMATS was
created, there has always been one more local than state vote.
Originally it was two local votes to one state vote and now it
is three local votes to two state votes. Although there aren't
many state-local divisions, the idea behind this in voting is if
"it comes down to state versus municipality, the municipality
can outvote the state." This [bill] would change this, which
would result in having four state votes and three local votes.
MR. BRIGHAM indicated that another reason DOT&PF does not
support this bill is that MPO is the group that needs to decide
what the most important projects are. He noted that [DOT&PF]
might not agree at times with what AMATS decides. However,
according to the law, AMATS can choose. He also mentioned the
attorney general's position that this bill violates the
constitutional prohibition against dual office holding. He
noted that legislative council has a different opinion on this
matter. However, he said "it's a cautionary light at minimum
and urge your caution in this regard."
MR. BRIGHAM referred to letters [included in committee packets]
from the Federal Highway Administration. The February 22, 2001,
letter says, "Federal regulations do not preclude the
participation of state legislators on the AMATS Policy Board.
He then pointed to the April 5, 2001, letter that discusses how
legislators get to the AMATS Policy Board. He agreed that there
is no prohibition against having legislators on the MPO Policy
Board. However, he said the point of this letter was that the
MPO has to vote in order to add new members. So if the
legislature were to say "we want to put two more members on the
MPO," it would be in violation of federal and state regulations.
Number 1136
MATT KETCHUM, Wilder Construction Company, stated that he
supports Senator Phillips' testimony. He remarked that he was
referring to "financial responsibility and accountability." He
believes that Senator Phillips' frustration is that the people
making the project decisions concerning where the $70 million
will be spent, have the financial responsibility to constituents
for direct money.
MR. KETCHUM commented that as a contractor who bids AMATS work
and has worked on AMATS projects, he has seen many projects that
"don't make sense" priority wise. He said, "It's work to us,
and that's what we do, we're contractors, we sign contracts but
as citizens in the town, [we see] ... a lot of work that we do
[that] does not seem to make sense." He noted that the AMATS
committee might have prioritized the projects. But, "we" don't
have the time to attend the meetings to "establish these AMATS
priority lists," he said. However, if there were some
legislative influence, projects of a higher priority would
probably come first, which would be "better for the community
and particularly the constituents that the legislators
represent."
Number 1215
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER wondered how he determines what is a
priority [project] in the community.
MR. KETCHUM said, "I live there."
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked him to provide an example.
MR. KETCHUM described a project that consisted of building a
bike path near Peter's Creek. He said that the beginning and
end of the path went nowhere; it was not in a relatively high-
density community. He noted that there was a school nearby, but
the "access and egress" of this bike path did not make much
sense. One part of the bike path was so steep, it could not be
paved, and so a gravel surface was put in, which supposedly met
some AMATS standards. This job cost $1.7 million for a two-mile
bike path. He commented that those who lived there were saying,
"What in the world is this for?"
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if that would be the fault of the
AMATS Board or an engineering fault.
MR. KETCHUM replied that it was the fault of the [AMATS] Board.
He said, "DOT is marching to the beat of AMATS and that's why I
think they're more in favor of not having the AMATS control in
there as well." This is the frustration; "people see things
like that and then they see a road in [Senator Phillips'] area
that very much needs [work] for safety, maintenance, for
everything." He indicated that if someone wanted to provide
input for the list, one had to attend the meetings. But one
needs to call ahead to make sure the meeting has not changed, he
added.
MR. KETCHUM stated that he supports Senator Phillips because
this bill would add legislative "interactment" to the process.
He suggested that this would make the legislators feel obligated
to attend the meetings, and this would enable higher priority
projects to get completed first. He mentioned that Anchorage
has more trail miles than road miles and DOT&PF probably
realizes this, but it "can hardly maintain trails much less
build more." He said his comments are from a contractor's
perspective and from a company that consists of people living in
this area.
Number 1344
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH surmised that as a contractor even though
Mr. Ketchum thought the aforementioned [bike path] went nowhere,
he was still willing to take the contract and accept state money
to build it.
MR. KETCHUM replied, "Without a doubt, that's what we're in
business for, is contracts."
Number 1420
ANNA FAIRCLOUGH, Legislative Chair, Anchorage Assembly;
Committee Representative, AMATS; testified via teleconference.
She pointed out AR No. 2001-44 that announces the Anchorage
Assembly's unanimous opposition to SB 88.
MS. FAIRCLOUGH gave the following testimony:
Senator Phillips and Senator Donley have been
encouraged to participate and attend our monthly AMATS
meetings. I have directed Lance Wilbur, Director of
AMATS, to personally invite both senators to all of
our presentations.
Taking Senator Phillips and Senator Donley's concerns
very seriously, the AMATS committee, the AMATS policy
committee has been meeting bi-weekly for close to four
months to address the problem and change the way that
AMATS ... functions. Today it functions differently
and more effectively. I'd like you to know that the
federal government believes that the Metropolitan
Planning Organization in Anchorage, Alaska, is one of
the model programs. To that end, we were actually
asked to go to Hawaii and try to help straighten out
their problem. While Senator Phillips has pointed out
that legislators and political leaders are taking part
in Hawaii's AMATS policy program, or the MPO in
Hawaii, they felt appropriate to actually ask
Anchorage to come over and explain how we were doing
it so some of their projects might move [through the]
system more efficiently.
So, I would encourage any of you if you have
questions, to contact Lance Wilbur and talk about the
information he shared and the challenges the Hawaii
MPO is having. One of those challenges that were told
to me was, because of the political will of the
constituents, that projects change as election
official changes. So that's been part of the problem.
A concern for me that Tom mentioned was the separation
of powers. The federal government, in my reading and
certainly that's a laymen's reading, not a council
point of view, was trying to get to the point that
local leaders would control how local dollars inside
the community and prioritize that.
With that thought in mind, I'd like you to consider
that Mr. [Dick] Tremaine [Anchorage Assembly member]
and myself, while serving on AMATS and collecting
information, really are not voting for South Anchorage
or for Chugiak Eagle River. We're required, bound to
take any requests back to the entire body so that the
entire Anchorage community has the opportunity to
weigh in on the decision before we actually we go back
and vote to appropriate or designate a priority list
of how we're going to send money.
I was certainly as frustrated as Senator Phillips last
October when I found out that Business Boulevard again
had not obligated for money. But in defense of the
process, Business Boulevard went from a small safety
project into a full blown renovation of Business
Boulevard with a large change in the scope for that
project and that incredible amount of increased funds
that were required through the AMATS process. And
that will turn (indisc.) this summer.
If the legislature wants to be involved, we are all
one city. Senator Phillips and Senator Donley, we all
live in the same town. We all want the same thing.
We do not want this to be weighed in a political
direction because of who is in office. And as Tom
pointed out, shifting powers from three votes at a
local level to four at a state level. The GARVEE
bonds is a solution that if we could get senator and
representative support, would help Anchorage as well
as many other communities throughout Anchorage. Just
to point out, 20 percent of AMATS money for the last
decade has come to the MPO in Anchorage, Alaska, while
we have 40 percent of the population. We could use
legislative help to change that breakdown. And I'm
certainly not saying that we need 40 percent of the
money. I'm just pointing out that we take a
considerably amount less than the population that we
hold.
[I'm] just ask[ing] you to consider how the
legislators would actually add to the process. Their
availability to participate in meetings is
questionable per the Anchorage legislative caucus.
When I met with them, they felt like the time that we
met would be inconvenient. And that we would now be
asking the constituents of Anchorage to contact
legislators in Juneau for part of the year to get
things done with Anchorage. With that, I support all
of the information, input, and conversation that any
legislature wants to put in the process and would ask
the committee to not support this legislation and to
really take a look at how those MPO's are working in
other areas.
Thank you
CHAIR KOHRING noted that Senator Phillips provided the
resolution [of the Anchorage Municipal Assembly] in the
committee packets. He asked what the assembly's vote on this
resolution was.
MS. FAIRCLOUGH said it was unanimous [against SB 88].
Number 1693
DICK TREMAINE, South Anchorage Assembly Member, testified via
teleconference that his district consists of 52,000 people and
thus could separate from the Municipality of Anchorage in regard
to federal highway funding. So, this would be the second
metropolitan area in the state ahead of Fairbanks
MR. TREMAINE commented that Federal Highway dollars take about
seven years to make a road, a "miserably long time" that leads
to the perception of delay. He remarked that there are people
who want local participation, and "what better than the mayor
and two assembly members that live in town, rather than someone
who is spending their legislative time elsewhere out of town and
actually would have to transport themselves back to Anchorage
for the bi-weekly meeting."
MR. TREMAINE indicated that information on meetings could be
obtained over the Internet. He noted that he believes Senator
Phillip's office receives it. He referred to earlier comments
regarding the delay of projects in Eagle River and said that the
people delaying the project were those that owned the property
and who would not sign a right-of-way agreement, because they
did not want to sell their property. The delay was not due to
the policy committee or a "technocrat." He asked the House
Transportation Standing Committee to respect the vote unanimous
vote of the Anchorage Assembly and not pass SB 88 out of
committee.
CHAIR KOHRING announced that SB 88 would be held over until
Thursday.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Transportation Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:15
p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|