03/17/2009 08:00 AM House STATE AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB157 | |
| HCR11 | |
| HJR3 | |
| HB115 | |
| Adjourn |
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | HB 157 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HCR 11 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 115 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | HJR 3 | TELECONFERENCED | |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
March 17, 2009
8:05 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bob Lynn, Chair
Representative Paul Seaton, Vice Chair
Representative Carl Gatto
Representative Craig Johnson
Representative Peggy Wilson
Representative Max Gruenberg
Representative Pete Petersen
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Representative Harry Crawford
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 157
"An Act amending the State Personnel Act to place in the exempt
service the chief economist and state comptroller in the
Department of Revenue and certain professional positions
concerning oil and gas within the Department of Natural
Resources; relating to reemployment of and benefits for or on
behalf of reemployed retired teachers and public employees by
providing for an effective date by amending the delayed
effective date for secs. 3, 5, 9, and 12, ch. 57, SLA 2001 and
sec. 19, ch. 50, SLA 2005; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 11
Proclaiming the month of April 2009 to be Sexual Assault
Awareness Month.
- MOVED HCR 11 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 3
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of
Alaska requiring an affirmative vote of the people before any
form of gambling for profit may be authorized in Alaska and
setting other requirements.
- MOVED HJR 3 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 115
"An Act establishing a permanent absentee voting option for
qualified voters; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 157
SHORT TITLE: REEMPLOYMENT OF RETIREES; EXEMPT SERVICE
SPONSOR(s): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
02/27/09 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/27/09 (H) STA, FIN
03/17/09 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HCR 11
SHORT TITLE: SEXUAL ASSAULT AWARENESS MONTH
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) FAIRCLOUGH
03/09/09 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/09/09 (H) STA
03/17/09 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HJR 3
SHORT TITLE: CONST.AM:NO GAMING WITHOUT VOTER APPROVAL
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) CRAWFORD, DAHLSTROM
01/20/09 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 1/9/09
01/20/09 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/20/09 (H) STA, JUD, FIN
02/12/09 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
02/12/09 (H) Heard & Held
02/12/09 (H) MINUTE(STA)
03/17/09 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 115
SHORT TITLE: PERMANENT ABSENTEE VOTING
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) BUCH
02/04/09 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/04/09 (H) STA, FIN
03/17/09 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
GINGER BLAISDELL, Director
Administrative Services Division
Department of Revenue (DOR)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Introduced HB 157 on behalf of the House
Rules Standing Committee, sponsor by request of the governor.
KEVIN BANKS, Acting Director
Central Office
Division of Oil & Gas
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 157.
JERRY BURNETT, Deputy Commissioner
Treasury Division
Department of Revenue (DOR)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 157.
PAT SHIER, Director
Division Retirement & Benefits
Department of Administration
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 157.
NIKKI NEAL, Director
Division of Personnel & Labor Relations
Department of Administration
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions during the hearing on HB
157.
BARB ANGAIAK, President
National Education Association-Alaska ("NEA-Alaska")
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke to issues in HB 157 that are related
to employees of the Teachers' Retirement System (TRS).
DON ETHERIDGE
American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial
Organizations (AFL-CIO)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed concerns and answered questions
during the hearing on HB 157.
HANNAH RAMISKEY, Member
Ketchikan Charter School Board
Ketchikan, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 157.
HARRY MARTIN, Principal
Ketchikan Charter School
Ketchikan, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 157.
KEVIN BROOKS, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Administration (DOA)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 157.
CRYSTAL KOENEMAN, Staff
Representative Anna Fairclough
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HCR 11 on behalf of
Representative Fairclough, prime sponsor.
REPRESENTATIVE BOB BUCH
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: As prime sponsor, introduced HB 115.
LARRY BENSON
American Postal Workers Union
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed support of HB 115.
DORSEY ROLAND
National Association of Letter Carriers
Eagle River, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed support of HB 115.
ACTION NARRATIVE
8:05:40 AM
CHAIR BOB LYNN called the House State Affairs Standing Committee
meeting to order at 8:05 a.m. Representatives Seaton, Gatto,
Wilson, Gruenberg, Petersen, and Lynn were present at the call
to order. Representative Johnson arrived as the meeting was in
progress.
HB 157-REEMPLOYMENT OF RETIREES; EXEMPT SERVICE
8:06:52 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that the first order of business was HOUSE
BILL NO. 157, "An Act amending the State Personnel Act to place
in the exempt service the chief economist and state comptroller
in the Department of Revenue and certain professional positions
concerning oil and gas within the Department of Natural
Resources; relating to reemployment of and benefits for or on
behalf of reemployed retired teachers and public employees by
providing for an effective date by amending the delayed
effective date for secs. 3, 5, 9, and 12, ch. 57, SLA 2001 and
sec. 19, ch. 50, SLA 2005; and providing for an effective date."
8:07:08 AM
GINGER BLAISDELL, Director, Administrative Services Division,
Department of Revenue (DOR), on behalf of the House Rules
Standing Committee, sponsor by request of the governor,
paraphrased the sponsor statement for HB 157, which read as
follows [original punctuation provided]:
HB 157 Reemployment of Retirees; Exempt Service
contains three personnel topics regarding state
employment. First, extending the sunset provision of
the "retire/rehire" employment provision would allow
state entities to hire retired employees into existing
positions. Second, the Department of Revenue is
requesting that two professional positions be made
"exempt" for the purposes of allowing flexibility in
recruitment and paying market value. Third, certain
professional positions concerning oil and gas within
the Department of Natural Resources are requested to
be made "exempt" for flexibility in recruitment and
paying market value.
Each of the portions of the bill are presented in
order of the bill:
Department of Revenue - Exempt Positions
Two positions in the Department of Revenue have been
difficult to fill and retain because the department
cannot offer market pay. The state comptroller
oversees billions of dollars and coordinates the
state's accounts with national banking agencies. This
position is currently partially-exempt, meaning that
it is not governed by collective bargaining but that
it must be paid within a state salary scale. This
position has turned over every year for the past four
years due to more appealing private-sector offers
accepted by the incumbents. The chief economist
position is a classified position and has been open
for recruitment for approximately one year. Although
one of the division's lead economists is filling this
position in acting status, the department is seeking
an economist who can speak with experience and
authority on Alaska's global petroleum economics.
Department of Natural Resources - Exempt Positions
The division of oil and gas and the division of
geological and geophysical survey of the Department of
Natural Resources (DNR) are responsible for assessing
the state's mineral resources, overseeing the
assessment and collection of a large portion of the
state's revenues related to oil and gas development,
as well as management of the state's oil and gas
resources. DNR, through these divisions, must maintain
an experienced and professional staff as well as
recruit new staff. Without exempt status the State
cannot be competitive with industry in hiring the best
and most experienced employees in areas where that
experience can mean millions of dollars in revenue to
the employer.
Retire/Rehire Sunset Extension
Legislation was passed in 2005 that allows for the
rehire of certain PERS and TRS employees who retired
with a normal retirement. These rehires can continue
to receive normal retirement benefits by waiving
further participation in the retirement systems. This
legislation is scheduled to sunset on July 1, 2009.
In a report provided to the legislature on February 6,
2009, the number of waivers in the retire/rehire
program in 2008 were 62 PERS and 85 TRS participants.
While the number of participants are seemingly low,
these individuals play a vital role in the communities
where they are employed. Many rural communities and
school districts have benefited from the retire/rehire
program to retain retirement eligible individuals in
these hard-to-fill positions.
8:11:44 AM
KEVIN BANKS, Acting Director, Central Office, Division of Oil &
Gas, Department of Natural Resources (DNR), said he would be
speaking in regard to the Division of Oil & Gas (DOG), as well
as the Division of Geological and Geophysical Survey (DGGS),
which is headed by Bob Swenson. Mr. Banks said HB 157 would
amend [paragraph] 14 of AS 39.25.110, by "adding several
positions that are now hired under a provision in 110 that
refers to people who are conducting special inquiries, studies,
and examinations. He added, "That would be then transferred to
position titles, like petroleum geophysicist, commercial
analysts, and, in the case of DGGS, the state geologist."
MR. BANKS reviewed that DOG is responsible for assessing and
managing the state's mineral resources. Staff members "in these
positions" have been hired "out of industry," because the
division can offer under exempt status a salary that includes a
measure of stability.
8:14:35 AM
MR. BANKS stated that significant industry experience is
critical to being able to interpret the data and type of
information generated by the industry. He said [DOG] has
geologists, engineers, and commercial "folks" who have received
national recognition. Similarly, DGGS brings expertise to the
table in promoting the state's mineral, oil, and gas wealth to
the industry by developing studies and marketing the state to
other professionals.
CHAIR LYNN asked how much more the occupations proposed to be
added to [paragraph 14] would be paid.
MR. BANKS responded that the top exempt salaries range at about
$150,000; a petroleum engineer in the private sector could be
making up to $200,000. He continued as follows:
The positions that are listed here are now filled
under an exempt status, and we would not be changing
the amount of money that we're paying folks from now.
What it does, though, is change from this special
inquiry or studies or examination, which is a bit of a
loose reference. For example, we have commercial
analysts that work for us under special inquiry, and
I've had difficulty at times persuading folks coming
to work for us that that doesn't mean that this
special inquiry will be over in six or eight months,
and thank you very much for your service. What we'll
do is convert those ... two positions that are listed
here and be able to offer, I think, ... a sense of
permanence for those folks, recognizing that they have
technical skills that we need and will continue to
need as their job evolves over time. So, we're not
talking about changing a classified position to an
exempt position under this bill.
8:17:41 AM
MR. BANKS, in response to Representative Wilson, remarked that
the term "special inquiry" has been interpreted fairly broadly.
He relayed that when he worked as a petroleum market analyst in
the division, his responsibilities included managing royalty in
kind and royalty in value contracts. That, he explained, was
the definition of his special inquiry as applied to that
position. It involved a certain skill set and certain ongoing
work. In response to a follow-up question, Mr. Banks stated his
belief that the meaning of special inquiry has to do not so much
with a skill set, but with the nature of the work and what it
contributes.
8:19:52 AM
MR. BANKS, in response to Representative Gruenberg, said DNR's
concern is solely with Section 1 of the proposed legislation.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked if this issue will need to come
before the legislature every few years because the titles in job
positions change.
MR. BANKS replied that he does not think that will be necessary
because "these positions are the names of the positions that do
exist now under the special inquiry part of the statute." The
definition of the positions is broad and common to the industry
nomenclature, he said. In response to Representative Gruenberg,
he said the term "special inquiry" is found in AS 39.25.110,
paragraph (9).
8:21:33 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG cited the introductory paragraph of AS
39.25.110, which read:
Sec. 39.25.110. Exempt service.
Unless otherwise provided by law, the following
positions in the state service constitute the exempt
service and are exempt from the provisions of this
chapter and the rules adopted under it:
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG noted that paragraph (14) is set out in
Section 1 of the bill and paragraph (42) is in Section 2 of the
bill. He cited Section (9), to which Mr. Banks referred, which
read as follows:
(9) persons employed in a professional capacity
to make a temporary or special inquiry, study or
examination as authorized by the governor;
8:22:39 AM
MR. BANKS continued his testimony. He said it is important to
realize, "It's not only a matter of hiring people; it is also a
matter of retaining people." He stated his belief that the
changes proposed in HB 157 represent the state's commitment to
its current employees - that temporary or special inquiry is not
the reason they are working for [the department], but rather
that their skills and the work they are doing are essential for
the performance and conduct of DOG and DGGS. These people, he
said, offer many benefits to the state, including providing
mentorship to the classified state employees. Mr. Banks
reemphasized the importance of retaining "these folks." He
shared that some have come to him to let him know that although
they have received offers from the private sector, they prefer
to stay. He surmised the reasons include a sense of civic
responsibility, the realization of job security, and because
they may have a role that exceeds the responsibility that they
had in a much larger organization.
8:24:17 AM
MR. BANKS, in response to Representative Gatto, explained that
the term "petroleum physicist" is a field of study in oil and
gas or schools of mining. Many geophysicists have had
undergraduate training in physics, followed by a narrowed focus
into the acoustic properties of geophysical type survey. A
geophysicist does not have certification like that of a
petroleum engineer, he said. In response to Representative
Gatto, he indicated that the bill is a way in which to sweeten
the deal for those who want to remain in Alaska to work, and to
demonstrate commitment to those who already work for the state;
however, anyone working for the state "in this capacity," under
exempt or classified service, can move on to greener pastures.
8:27:28 AM
MR. BANKS, in response to Representative Seaton, stated:
Several positions were created under 110 (9) - the
special inquiry. They included several commercial
analyst positions and some of the [geotechnical]
positions, like the geophysicists. And people were
brought in on staff. So, we went from about 20 people
on our staff that are exempt to 30 people. That
occurred about five years ago. It also included a
substantial increase in salaries at that time to try
to achieve some parity with the industry, and frankly
that was quite successful. We were able to attract
over the last several years several new people and
replace those who were retiring.
8:28:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked if the terms "temporary" and
"special inquiry" - in Section 9 of the bill - are defined in
regulation.
8:29:16 AM
MR. BANKS offered his understanding that the Department of Law
issued an opinion at the beginning of the current administration
which narrowed the definition of "special inquiry" and required
that people hired under that provision go through more scrutiny.
He said he is not aware of any specific definition. The hiring
of an exempt employee in DOG requires the vetting through the
Office of the Governor. The hiring of someone in the exempt
status is not done willy-nilly, he said.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked if there is a uniformity of that
phrase throughout the department, questioned the reason for the
legal opinion, and said he would like to have a copy of that
legal opinion given to committee members. He suggested the
committee may want to consider whether or not to address that
classification phrase.
8:32:56 AM
MR. BANKS remarked that the original provision in 110 (9) has
existed for many years. He said Representative Seaton was
referring to a budget item that came through five years ago,
which allowed "us" to pay people in exempt positions a salary
more commensurate with the industry; it had no effect on
changing the content of this bill. He speculated that
[Representative Gruenberg] may be correct that temporary or
special inquiry might have been viewed as a loophole by some in
the past; however, he said his understanding of the legal
opinion is that it basically closed that loophole. The exempt
job has to require someone with the kinds of skills that are not
found in someone who is a member of the classified service.
8:34:27 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON clarified that HB 157 would take the
positions in question out of paragraph (9) and add them to the
list of exempt employees listed in paragraph (14).
8:36:14 AM
JERRY BURNETT, Deputy Commissioner, Treasury Division,
Department of Revenue, testified regarding Section 2 of HB 157.
He said Section 2 addresses two positions in DNR - the chief
economist and the state comptroller - that would be moved to
exempt service. Currently, he said, the chief economist is a
classified job, at range 26. The chief economist heads the
economic analysis group in the tax division and is responsible
for the state's revenue sources and forecasts. The job was held
by one person for more than 20 years prior to 2004, by another
from 2004 to 2008, and attempts to fill it since that time have
been unsuccessful. There needs to be a capable person in the
position, because consequences are high in it. Given the
current market, Mr. Burnett said, the best way to successfully
recruit someone with international petroleum economics
experience is by moving the job into the exempt service.
8:38:19 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO commented on the fact that although the
state has paid someone a range 26 to forecast oil prices, the
legislature has had no accurate help from anyone in its efforts
to forecast prices.
MR. BURNETT responded that that has been a classified position.
Furthermore, the state contracts with "external people" and has
other resources it uses to figure out oil prices. He stated, "I
don't think anyone has been successful forecasting oil prices or
stock prices, or any real asset or commodity prices over the
last year or two. He offered his understanding that the
volatility in the market is greater than it has been since the
1860s. He concurred with Chair Lynn that no one is to blame,
and he said "we" want the most qualified person in the job and
to be able to access the markets.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO questioned the philosophy of looking for a
better person for a job that cannot be done.
MR. BURNETT said the person in this position does a lot more
than forecast; he/she also looks at the competitiveness of the
state's fiscal system on a worldwide basis and has to be able to
understand how petroleum economics work. The right person in
the job makes a better advisor, and the department does not
believe it can get the person with the right skills in the job
without offering the position as exempt.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said that answer does not satisfy him. He
further commented on the unpredictability of forecasting,
suggesting that The Old Farmer's Almanac may do just as a good a
job forecasting.
MR. BURNETT said if it was purely a matter of forecasting
prices, a number of external tools may work as well. However,
understanding how price movement will impact Alaska's revenues
within its current fiscal system is much more complex than that.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said, "I'll agree."
8:42:51 AM
MR. BURNETT, in response to Representative Johnson, confirmed
that the person in this position also contracts with companies,
such as Black & Veach, to look at Alaska's fiscal systems, and
it is important to have a person in the position who can "speak
the same language."
8:43:32 AM
MR. BURNETT addressed the second DNR position proposed to be
moved to exempt status: the state comptroller. That position
needs to be filled by a CPA who is in charge of the accounting
function of the Treasury Division. In the last five years, the
department has had four comptrollers. The department is happy
with the person currently in the position and would like the
ability to negotiate a salary comparable with those exempt
positions that are paid market-based salaries, in order to keep
the employee. The position is responsible for generating the
financial statements for the pension funds and all of the state
treasury functions. Mr. Burnett stated, "Most of the staff in
the Treasury Division are exempt ..., so working in that
environment, it seems appropriate to have this position also as
an exempt position." He noted that the comptroller position is
currently partially exempt, paid at a "state-paid schedule."
8:45:24 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked what changes, from the state's
perspective, once someone's position has been made exempt.
MR. BURNETT, using the example of the position of comptroller,
which is currently filled, said the state would be looking at
using a market survey to set future wages. However, he said
nothing would really change; the person would still be an at-
will employee subject to the same work environment. In response
to Representative Gatto, he stated that the whole point of
changing the position to exempt status would be to have the
ability to offer an employee more, based on market survey, to
entice him or her to take the position or to stay in the
position. He emphasized that that is the whole point of Section
2.
8:47:13 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to AS 39.25.110(26)
and asked Mr. Burnett why the economist and comptroller could
not be listed here, rather than in (42).
8:47:59 AM
MR. BURNETT said he believes the decision of where to put those
positions is merely a drafting style.
8:48:28 AM
PAT SHIER, Director, Division Retirement & Benefits, Department
of Administration, testified regarding Section 3 of HB 157. He
said the division has heard from school districts, in
particular, as well as from certain public employers, expressing
concern that "this portion of the law was set to end." He
continued:
It's a tool in the toolbox that helps those public
employers and those school districts where they're
experiencing a real shortage in individuals to come to
the table and do the work that needs to be done. It
simply extends the sunset out to 2013; it doesn't make
it permanent. And we see it as a rational response to
current labor situations.
8:49:39 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO questioned the hardship in hiring during a
time when there is an increase in unemployment.
MR. SHIER responded that employers are reporting a difficulty in
recruiting qualified applicants. He noted that public employers
must prove they have had a difficulty in recruiting qualified
individuals by showing that they had five or fewer qualified
applicants. In response to Chair Lynn, he acknowledged that
things may be changing; the state may find individuals coming to
Alaska looking for work. In that case, public employers would
have more than five qualified applicants and would not be able
to "access the future to this bill."
8:50:40 AM
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said she has heard that there are two
areas in which there currently is an exception to the
unemployment problem: health and education. However, the
number of Baby Boomers retiring will be increasing. She warned
that the state will have a terrible time replacing teachers,
because there are not enough of them in the United States. She
reported that the schools within her constituency have asked her
to extend this legislation.
8:51:38 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said the legislature dealt with this issue
before when it scheduled the 2009 sunset. He continued:
As I recall, part of the problem was when the policy
was put in, we had supervisors ... - people who were
still not exempt, but they would leave their materials
in the desk, would go on vacation for 30 days, would
continue. We wouldn't have applications from people
under them in the department, because who's going to
put in an application when you know your boss is going
to get the job because somebody ... liked him, and who
can be more qualified, probably, than the person
that's existing in the job?
So, one of the ... problems, and why there's a sunset,
was because this was seen as a detriment or a
deterrent for people to stay within the department
because they knew the guys at the top would never
leave - they could be rehired, retire, start
collecting their retirement, and stay in the same job,
and there was a real problem of upward mobility.
How have you solved that within this situation, and do
we have that same problem with morale within the
department for upward movement of personnel, and if we
extend this, won't we be ... keeping that same
problem?
MR. SHIER responded that the division is committed to developing
talent "to come up and take the jobs of the future." He said it
is clear from his conversations with the commissioner that she
highly values the importance of taking steps toward having an
adequate training program - a succession program - in place.
The division is currently developing the internal training
programs and knowledge transfer programs that will allow the
state to do business as well or better "when some of us were
here or gone." Notwithstanding that, he said he has heard of
one case where a situation exactly as Representative Seaton
described occurred, and he said that is demoralizing. In terms
of how the law is structured, if extended, the two features
designed to help minimize this occurrence were the requirement
that there be proof of five or fewer qualified candidates and
the development of a knowledge transfer plan, he reviewed.
MR. SHIER referred to the aforementioned report to the
legislature and said it shows that "better than" 80 percent of
the Public Employees' Retirement System (PERS) employers and
almost 80 percent of the Teachers' Retirement System (TRS)
employers have in place and on file with the division that
knowledge transfer plan. He said the division would expect
that, and the five or fewer requirement, to continue to be part
of the process of certification.
8:55:36 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON indicated that some employers have not
completed their transfer plan, even though it is required.
Furthermore, there is no mention of the plan in the department's
web site. He asked if there is an annual certification that
would show that every employer is exercising that knowledge
transfer plan.
MR. SHIER responded that the division would like 100 percent
compliance and currently reminds employers to complete their
plan. He said some employers have reported feeling panicked
because they are having difficulty filling all the vacancies.
The department tries to help those employers accomplish this
part of the requirement.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if the Department of Administration
is ensuring that the knowledge transfer plan is actually being
implemented or [if the requirement] is "just on paper."
MR. SHIER said he does not want to answer off the cuff without
speaking with the person responsible for doing the follow-up on
this.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked Mr. Shier to do that and let the
committee know what the Department of Administration's procedure
is for following up on the knowledge transfer plans within each
agency which uses a "retire/rehire." He emphasized the
importance of morale within departments.
8:59:01 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON, regarding the "five or fewer"
requirement, asked if the rehire would last through 2013 -
throughout the time until the bill would sunset.
MR. SHIER stated his understanding that there is no provision in
this part of the law due to sunset that would require the
division or employer to report a change in the labor market that
would lead the division or the employer to release the retiree
automatically.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON offered his understanding that the
situation is that if there is a job opening and there are five
or fewer applications, the employer can rehire "the person
that's in there" and [that person] can maintain that position
until 2013 "without any reoffering of the job if anything
changes." He asked Mr. Shier to get back to him regarding
whether that understanding is correct.
MR. SHIER said he will.
9:00:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON mentioned a memorandum from Scott
Nordstrand, [former commissioner of the Department of
Administration], dated 9/11/06, which addresses the issue of
rehiring retirees. She recollected that the legislature had at
one time considered a requirement that [the retiree] had to be
"out at least six months"; however, she observed that former
Commissioner Nordstrand's memorandum notes that the time is only
30 days. She cited a portion of the memorandum, which read as
follows [original punctuation provided, with some formatting
changes]:
A retiree who intends to seek a PERS waiver may be
appointed to a position in the classified service if:
an open competitive recruitment process is
conducted for at least 30 days and results in an
applicant pool of fewer than five qualified, eligible,
and available applicants;
all qualified, eligible and available applicants
are considered;
the hiring authority demonstrates why no other
applicant will have the knowledge, skills, or ability
to perform the duties of the position after serving
the full probationary period;
and
the retiree has served a thirty-day separation
with the PERS. If the employee currently is covered
under [House Bill 242], a second thirty-day separation
will not be required if the employee is later
appointed under [House Bill 161]. However, if the
employee has not been rehired under [House Bill 242]
and has not served the initial thirty-day separation,
a thirty-day separation will be required.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked, "Are these regulations or ... is
this ... in statute?"
MR. SHIER responded, "This is the administrative execution plan
that the division is currently using; we haven't changed
anything since that memo." In response to a follow-up question,
he said it is difficult to make a blanket statement as to
whether a 30-day separation requirement is fair. He said "this"
is designed to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. He stated,
"This has been a method for us to try and bring some
accountability to the process, and I can imagine going further
than this might create undue administrative hardships on both
the employers and on the division. So, I would call this - for
the time being - adequate."
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if Mr. Shier has received complaints
from other employees "because you're doing this."
MR. SHIER noted that last year the division received a
complaint; however, it was not from a candidate. He related
that the complaint was from an employee who is governed by a
board, and there was some disagreement on the board. Mr. Shier
said that is the only complaint he can recollect having been
received in the last year and a half.
9:05:18 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON directed attention to page 4 of the Alaska
Legislative Report handout, which shows a list of job classes
rehired under PERS as a result of House Bill 161. He noted that
one of the jobs listed is Administrative Assistant I. He
questioned why that would be a position for which it would be
necessary to hire a retiree. He asked if that is an entry-level
position.
MR. SHIER replied that without further information, he would
surmise that the reason has to do with the two most common
factors: the location and the labor pool at the time of
recruitment.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON expressed concern that the legislature not
support a bill that "could lead to the cronyism kind of hiring"
that that body attempted to get rid of with the sunset date of
2009. He asked Mr. Shier to get back to the committee with more
details related to the issue.
MR. SHIER said he would try. However, he told Representative
Seaton that it may be that some of the data concerning the labor
market at the time will be difficult to substantiate. Regarding
some of the clerical positions listed, he said, "We may find
that those individuals simply found it difficult to have anybody
apply for that kind of work ... - the labor pool being what it
was at that time."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON responded that if the proposed bill is
passed, what the labor pool is at the time, and which jobs are
on the list, will be locked in through 2013. He relayed that
someone retired and rehired may occupy that job for a long time,
while there may be a new labor pool that is willing and eager to
have the job.
9:10:06 AM
NIKKI NEAL, Director, Division of Personnel & Labor Relations,
Department of Administration, in response to a question from
Representative Wilson, said there are approximately 15,000
employees in the executive branch.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON remarked that there are 71 people on a
list of those rehired under House Bill 161, which, out of 15,000
employees, is not bad. She directed attention to [page 8] of
the Alaska Legislative Report, entitled, "Number of Months
Retired Rehired under [House Bill 161] for participating PERS
employers," and offered her understanding that of that 71, only
four were retired one to six months before being rehired. She
said she is not as concerned about that, because most of the
retirees were retired much longer than that before being
rehired.
9:12:47 AM
MS. NEAL, in response to a question from Representative Johnson,
said regulations and collective bargaining agreements allow
departments to recruit departmentally or for state employees
only. Regarding HB 157, she pointed out that the Division of
Personnel does not allow individuals to be rehired as retirees
through only a departmental or statewide recruitment; an open
competitive recruitment must be conducted.
9:14:14 AM
MS. NEAL, in response to a question from Representative Seaton
regarding the issue of five or more qualified applicants, said
it is not enough just to have fewer than five applicants; the
employer must illustrate the reasons why the other applicants do
not have the skills necessary to perform the work. She said she
is the one who personally signs off on those approvals, and
"they're very few and far between." The majority of retirees
working today were not recently appointed, she noted.
9:15:24 AM
BARB ANGAIAK, President, National Education Association-Alaska
("NEA-Alaska"), said she would speak to issues in HB 157 that
are related to employees of the Teachers' Retirement System
(TRS). She stated that the original intent of bill - to address
the issue of shortfalls in filling hard-to-fill positions - was
good. Unfortunately, she said, the bill does not provide a
solution and is, in fact, problematic. The categories of hard-
to-fill positions were broadly interpreted by school districts.
For example, the term "hard-to-fill teacher" was [interpreted]
in such a broad manner that in some districts, any teacher in a
teaching position who wished to be rehired after retiring was
allowed to be, regardless of whether or not the position was
hard to fill, because the district, as a whole, could show that
it was having trouble filling teaching positions.
MS. ANGAIAK, in another example, said in at least one school
district the term administrator was used in a broad term to
include the superintendent; therefore, there was no serious
attempt made to recruit for a superintendent, since there had
been an ongoing problem of trying to fill principal positions,
and the two categories were considered administrators.
MS. ANGAIAK said one problem in hiring retirees into teaching
positions has to do with the issue of wanting the "best and
brightest." Teachers who are just starting out do not have the
opportunity to develop their craft and become excellent
educators if the system continues to rehire the same teachers
repeatedly. She continued as follows:
Some of the people who are rehired retirees are our
members; but I think they would agree that the long-
term impact of this really affects how effective we
can be in our schools in working with Alaska's
children. So, for us, it's important to take a look
at whether this is really a solution.
9:18:46 AM
MS. ANGAIAK related that a superintendent told her not long ago
that even if the proposed legislation passes and the sunset is
moved further out, he probably would recommend to his school
board that it not participate, because he does not think "that
it's the fix that we need," and he sees it as exacerbating
already existing recruitment and retention problems.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG opined that the bill presents a
difficult policy issue. He said there are a lot of Baby Boomers
with a wealth of experience and a younger generation that needs
to build for the future, and he said he thinks society has to
protect both. He asked everyone to consider the issue more
broadly. He asked for Ms. Angaiak's advice regarding how to
help both generations.
9:21:25 AM
MS. ANGAIAK responded that it is problematic when retirees draw
a retirement income while filling a position that could be
filled by someone who would be contributing to the system. She
said she has heard many concerns expressed about the funding of
the state's retirement system, and "this only causes it to be
worse."
9:22:18 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO questioned if there is a point at which the
state would be better off paying off all the retiree debt and
"not taking on any more," or whether the state should maintain
that the system will go on forever as long as people are hired
"at the front end" to help pay the people "at the back end."
MS. ANGAIAK indicated that the latter system - in which new
hires come into the system and make a contribution, while those
retiring are able to collect retirement - has worked. She said
that system is most beneficial to the children of Alaska. She
emphasized the importance of bringing people with the best and
current knowledge into the system. Regarding her own peer
group, Ms. Angaiak stated, "It's a tough battle to stay ... up
on what we need to know to really offer the very best." She
concluded, "The funding of the retirement system is tied to
this, certainly, but the most important thing to us is, 'How are
we going to educate our kids in the very best way we can?'"
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said this is a question about money. He
said the situation reminds him of the social security system,
which must acquire new people in order to pay those who retire,
but has an enormous unfunded liability. He questioned if that
is what is being created through TRS.
MS. ANGAIAK expressed her belief that the state has system which
needs work, but which can support a retirement for its public
employees in order to draw people to public service.
[CHAIR LYNN passed the gavel to Vice Chair Seaton.]
9:26:43 AM
DON ETHERIDGE, American Federation of Labor and Congress of
Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO), related that during his past
25 years sitting at the negotiating table for the labor, trades,
and crafts group, the message was hammered in that "we need to
lower the wages to middle ground." He stated, "I think we're
there. That's why we're having problems with recruiting and
retention. We've reached middle ground, and we're right in the
ball park with everybody else, so there's nothing extra to show
the people who we need to stay here." He said AFL-CIO's concern
is that by exempting positions just because they are hard to
fill, the consequence may be that there will be no classified
positions left.
MR. BENSON, regarding the issue of retirement, said the state is
using PERS and TRS to fund the shortfall of the wages. He
warned that that "will hurt the retirement system even worse
than it already is now." He said there are people who cannot
afford to work because wages are not enough, but if they retire
and collect retirement and get rehired to collect wages, then
they can afford "to stay here." Mr. Benson said he does not
believe that is right.
9:28:55 AM
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN asked Mr. Benson if he thinks the fact
that the State of Alaska does not offer a defined benefit system
[to any employee hired after June 30, 2006,] is hurting the
recruitment effort.
MR. ETHERIDGE answered yes. He said he knows for a fact that
has caused problems. Many engineer positions and administrative
office positions in the harbor system have been vacated for that
precise reason, he said.
9:29:51 AM
MR. ETHERIDGE, in response to Representative Gatto, said as yet
no study has been done to show recruitment and retention trends,
but he said he has requested that one be conducted. He said a
study would make it easier for "us" to demonstrate the problem.
He added, "And to also look at the cost to government having to
retrain every time we have a problem with that retention and
recruitment effort." In response to a follow-up question, he
affirmed that "in some areas" the state ends up hiring less
qualified people because of the existing recruitment and
retention problems. He said the study would have to be done to
determine the percentage of jobs affected.
9:31:25 AM
VICE CHAIR SEATON reminded everyone that retire/rehire
legislation originally passed when the state was still under [a
defined benefit system]; therefore, "this wasn't coincident with
the new retirement system when we worked on that."
9:31:37 AM
HANNAH RAMISKEY, Member, Ketchikan Charter School Board, told
the committee that the Ketchikan Charter School has a core
knowledge curriculum and an 80 percent or higher assessment on
all its students. She mentioned [a former] superintendent who
was a curriculum director and reading specialist, had accepted
knowledge in the curriculum, and was young. She stated, "He did
not retire because he wanted to double dip; he retired because
the school board chose to let him go to hire someone with a
different educational philosophy." Mr. Martin is the new
administrator whom Ms. Ramiskey said 100 percent of the staff in
the school support. The man has the knowledge and experience to
make the charter school successful, she opined.
MS. RAMISKEY talked about the importance of hiring the best
people to educate the students, and she expressed her concern
regarding the testimony she has heard thus far. She continued
as follows:
First of all, the Ketchikan School District does pay
Mr. Martin's retirement benefits to the state; he just
doesn't get them. So, the money's going in; he does
not get them. He is more experienced and yet less
paid than most principals, because he comes in at an
entry level elementary school principal's position and
he does not collect retirement benefits.
9:35:03 AM
MS. RAMISKEY talked about a teacher who retired because her
husband had cancer, and who was subsequently rehired to run the
school's reading program after her husband died. She continued:
There's no one else in the City or island of Ketchikan
who can replace these people or come close. They do
not have their experience; they do not have their
training.
The last few principals hired in Ketchikan have come
from somewhere else. And I don't know that Ketchikan
has that [emphasis on "that"] many smart, well-
educated people that we can afford to say to these
people, "We don't want you in our community as a part
of our base; we can't reuse your education and your
knowledge; we are going to insist that we hire someone
else who may not be able to fill the bill, but at
least we're bringing in someone new."
MS. RAMISKEY asked the legislature to think about the children
involved. She mentioned No Child Left Behind, and stated her
concern that if there are people using the system in a way that
does not benefit the state or school children, then that issue
needs to be addressed. She said there are many charter schools
in Alaska that have either retired principals or retired
superintendents "at their core," and whose curriculums are
sometimes different from other curriculums in the district. She
said some people say they would like to work for the charter
school, but they do not have the belief in the school, and
without that belief, the school would not be successful. She
asked the committee to take that into consideration when making
decisions about money and numbers. Ms. Ramiskey restated her
concern for the children.
VICE CHAIR SEATON noted:
We're only talking about people that wanted to be
rehired that want to continue to collect their
retirement while being reemployed. They could go back
into the system and earn further years in the system
as a regular employee. So, all options are not off
the table if ... this goes away.
9:38:41 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG observed that part of the problem with
the proposed legislation is that it is an amalgamation of at
least two bills: one dealing with exempt service, and the other
dealing with retired/rehired service. Currently the discussion
pertains to the retired/rehired portion of the bill - the second
part of HB 157 - which is also an amalgamation because it
includes people working for state and people working for local
governments. Furthermore, the category of people working for
local governments is an amalgamation because it includes those
working as teachers under TRS and those working in other
administrative capacities under PERS. He pointed out that to
this point, Ms. Ramiskey and Ms. Angaiak were the only people to
have testified about local teacher issues. Ms. Angaiak talked
about it from the employees' and union's point of view, while
Ms. Ramiskey is discussing the issue from the point of view of
the parents. Representative Gruenberg concluded, "As the
legislature continues to consider this and related issues, it
may be helpful for us to break them out analytically in the
manner I've outlined, because some of the policy considerations
may be somewhat different."
9:40:37 AM
HARRY MARTIN, Principal, Ketchikan Charter School, testified as
follows:
The state statute gives the charter schools the
opportunity to come up with their own curriculum and
then to find people who support that curriculum to be
hired for that school.
In this case we have our own reading program. We have
a trainer who is trained in that program, who did, and
still continues to do in some of the schools here,
training for teachers that buy into that particular
philosophy and that particular method of teaching of
teaching reading.
She is back in the charter school doing that for the
charter school curriculum, because they have
completely bought into that. She is the only one that
is a certified trainer for this particular program.
She does a tremendous job with the people reading, and
as Ms. Ramiskey pointed out, she comes in at the
bottom salary schedule according to our district
arrangements and stays on that bottom level, so it is
an economic plus for the district. And, as part of
the state TRS agreement, the employer does pay TRS for
the employer, however, she does not contribute to
that.
So, just keep in mind that for charter schools, to
whom you've given the opportunity to come up with
their own curriculum and hire the people best for
that, that this is certainly one of the tools that we
use in order to do that and provide the best education
for those kids that go to our charter school.
[VICE CHAIR SEATON returned the gavel to Chair Lynn.]
9:43:03 AM
KEVIN BROOKS, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Administration
(DOA), noted that the retire/rehire provisions in statute have
been in place for some years now. The proposed legislation is
the second proposal for extension, and would extend the sunset
date by four years. Mr. Brooks said the nature of the
retire/rehire practice has changed over the years. It used to
occur that a person would retire on Friday and be rehired and
back at work on Monday, which caused hard feelings because
people thought that blocked promotional opportunities. However,
from the state's perspective, Mr. Brooks said, "It has really
become much more refined." He offered his understanding that
there are less than 30 employees currently employed under this
status.
MR. BROOKS said the requirement to prove recruitment difficulty
by showing there were five or fewer candidates after weeks of
recruitment, along with the carrying out of a knowledge transfer
plan, has served the state well.
9:45:36 AM
MR. BROOKS stated that an employer still has to pay the past
service cost on a retiree. A person coming in is not accruing
additional service, is not "adding normal costs," and the
employer is "paying the delta between the normal cost and the 22
percent that is set in statute to pay down that unfunded
liability." Mr. Brooks said there is a zero fiscal note; there
would be no financial impact as a result of the proposed
legislation. He added, "In fact, you have taken measures in
previous bills to make sure that it's not having a negative
impact on the unfunded liability." He said he wants to clarify
for the committee that that is also a concern of the department
and he thinks the concern has been adequately addressed.
9:47:00 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he would like to know what the
interaction is "with this and the hiring freeze that's currently
in place."
9:47:30 AM
MR. BROOKS, in response to Representative Gruenberg, clarified
that his previous comment regarding there being no impact to the
unfunded liability was made in regard to both PERS and TRS.
9:47:48 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that HB 157 was held over.
HCR 11-SEXUAL ASSAULT AWARENESS MONTH
9:47:50 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that the next order of business was HOUSE
CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 11, Proclaiming the month of April
2009 to be Sexual Assault Awareness Month.
9:48:16 AM
CRYSTAL KOENEMAN, Staff, Representative Anna Fairclough, Alaska
State Legislature, presented HCR 11 on behalf of Representative
Fairclough, prime sponsor. She said this is the third year that
the resolution has been presented. In 2007, Representative
Meyer carried the resolution, and in 2008, Representative
Fairclough carried the resolution. She said the purpose of the
bill is to "bring awareness to sexual assault."
9:49:15 AM
CHAIR LYNN closed public testimony.
9:49:22 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON moved to report HCR 11 out of committee
with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal
notes. There being no objection, HCR 11 was reported out of the
House State Affairs Standing Committee.
HJR 3-CONST.AM:NO GAMING WITHOUT VOTER APPROVAL
9:50:04 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that the next order of business was HOUSE
JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 3, Proposing an amendment to the
Constitution of the State of Alaska requiring an affirmative
vote of the people before any form of gambling for profit may be
authorized in Alaska and setting other requirements.
The committee took an at-ease from 9:50:23 AM to 9:52:09 AM.
9:52:16 AM
CHAIR LYNN, after ascertaining that there was no one to testify,
closed public testimony.
9:52:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to report HJR 3 out of committee
with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal
notes. There being no objection, HJR 3 was reported out of the
House State Affairs Standing Committee.
HB 115-PERMANENT ABSENTEE VOTING
CHAIR LYNN announced that the last order of business was HOUSE
BILL NO. 115, "An Act establishing a permanent absentee voting
option for qualified voters; and providing for an effective
date."
9:53:25 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON said he does not want [HB 115] to be held
over and subsequently listed as heard and held for the next
hearing. He explained that he wants to "properly notice" the
bill so that the public will have an adequate opportunity to
come forward and testify. He opined, "I don't think this is one
of those things that we want to have brought up under bills
previously heard, without plenty of notification."
9:53:54 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO concurred.
CHAIR LYNN said the committee would hear a quick introduction to
HB 115 and, before its next hearing, would "notice the bill."
9:54:09 AM
REPRESENTATIVE BOB BUCH, Alaska State Legislature, as prime
sponsor, introduced HB 115. He said the bill would give voters
the option to register for permanent absentee voting status. An
absentee ballot would automatically be sent to any voter
choosing that option. He commented on the convenience of
receiving a ballot at home and voting no matter where a person
is. Representative Buch reported that permanent absentee voting
is gaining popularity nationwide; currently, eight states have
it and 21 other states "have some version of it." The system in
Oregon is the most commonly known and has been in place since
the '80s. Officials in Oregon were consulted before drafting HB
115.
REPRESENTATIVE BUCH stated that HB 115 would not make any
changes to statutes or procedures that govern the absentee
voting process. The proposed bill only applies to state
elections - not local elections. Alaska voters would still have
the option of requesting a one-time absentee ballot or vote at
the polls. The proposed legislation would take affect in 2010.
Representative Buch predicted those whom the bill would benefit
would include: soldiers, miners, North Slope workers, and the
elder population. The bill would streamline the absentee voting
process for the Division of Elections by cutting down on
paperwork and administrative costs, and that entity supports the
proposed legislation.
9:57:10 AM
REPRESENTATIVE BUCH described the [permanent] absentee ballot
application. He emphasized that the change made by the bill
would be minimal and offer convenience.
9:57:49 AM
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN said that based on the comments he has
received from his constituents, he sees the need for the option
of permanent absentee voting.
9:59:07 AM
LARRY BENSON, American Postal Workers Union, in response to
Representative Lynn, expressed his support of HB 115.
9:59:16 AM
DORSEY ROLAND, National Association of Letter Carriers, in
response to Representative Lynn, expressed his support of HB
115.
9:59:42 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he wants Representative Buch to
address the issue of people moving out of state next time the
bill is heard.
10:00:30 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he would like the bill sponsor to
express his belief regarding whether election day should last
"only a single day."
10:01:01 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON said he would like the answer regarding
voters moving to include discussion of how to monitor those
changing districts.
10:01:12 AM
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said she wants to know how the state
purges records when someone dies. She related that in some
states where the record is not purged frequently, some people
have used the names of deceased voters as a means by which to
vote.
10:01:58 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that HB 115 was held over.
10:02:03 AM
CHAIR LYNN discussed the upcoming calendar.
10:02:26 AM
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 10:02
a.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| 01 HB 157 Version A.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 157 |
| 01 HB0115A.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 115 |
| 02 Sponsor Statement HB157 Exempt 13Mar09.doc |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 157 |
| 03 HB 157 - legislative-report-on-retiree-return-program-2-6-09.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 157 |
| 04 HB0157-1-1-022709-ADM-N.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 157 |
| 05 HB0157-2-1-022709-DNR-N.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 157 |
| 01 HCR011A.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
|
| 02 - updated HCR11Sponsor Statement - Electronic.doc |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
|
| 02 sponsor statement HB 115.doc |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 115 |
| 03 Sectional Analysis HB 115-REV.doc |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 115 |
| 04 HB 115 APWU letter of Support.PDF |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 115 |
| 03 Fiscal Note HCR 11.xls |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
|
| 06 HB0157-3-1-022709-REV-N.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 157 |
| 07 HB157-DOA-DRB-03-16-09.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |
HB 157 |
| New to Packet - HJR 3 legal memo.pdf |
HSTA 3/17/2009 8:00:00 AM |