02/09/2006 08:00 AM House STATE AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB413 | |
| HB349 | |
| Adjourn |
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | HB 349 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 413 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
February 9, 2006
8:08 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Carl Gatto, Vice Chair
Representative Jim Elkins
Representative Bob Lynn
Representative Jay Ramras
Representative Berta Gardner
Representative Max Gruenberg
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Paul Seaton, Chair
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 413
"An Act relating to the burning capability of cigarettes being
sold, offered for sale, or possessed for sale; and providing for
an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 413(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 349
"An Act relating to legislator salary and benefits; establishing
the Citizens' Commission on Legislative Salary and Benefits and
defining its powers and duties and abolishing the State Officers
Compensation Commission; and providing for an effective date by
repealing secs. 9 and 12, ch. 124, SLA 1986."
- MOVED CSHB 349(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 413
SHORT TITLE: BURNING CAPABILITY OF CIGARETTES
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) JOULE
02/01/06 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/01/06 (H) STA, JUD, FIN
02/09/06 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 349
SHORT TITLE: COMMISSION ON LEG. COMP. & ALLOWANCES
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) WEYHRAUCH
01/09/06 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 1/6/06
01/09/06 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/09/06 (H) STA, FIN
01/26/06 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
01/26/06 (H) Heard & Held
01/26/06 (H) MINUTE(STA)
02/09/06 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as sponsor of HB 413.
CRAIG GOODRICH, Fire Chief
Municipality of Anchorage;
Member
Fire Chiefs' Association in Alaska
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 413.
JACK KRILL, Fire Chief
Central Matanuska Fire Department
Wasilla, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 413.
WARREN B. CUMMINGS, Fire Chief
City of Fairbanks;
President
Alaska Fire Chiefs Association (AFCA)
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of the 129 members of
AFCA in support of HB 413.
CAROL R. REED, President
Alaska State Firefighters Association (ASFA)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Her testimony on behalf of ASFA in support
of HB 413 was read by Michael Tilly.
MICHAEL TILLY, Fire Chief
City of Kenai;
Member
Alaska Fire Chiefs Association (AFCA)
Kenai, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 439.
GARY POWELL, Director
State Fire Marshall
Central Office
Division of Fire Prevention
Department of Public Safety
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 413.
JEFF JOHNSON, President
Western Fire Chiefs Association (WFCA)
Portland, Oregon
POSITION STATEMENT: On behalf of the association, urged the
committee to pass HB 413.
ANDREW McGUIRE
San Francisco, California
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of the National Fire
Association Protection, based in Massachusetts, in support of HB
413.
MARGE LARSON
American Lung Association
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 439.
JACQUELINE TUPOU, Staff
to Representative Bruce Weyhrauch
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of Representative
Weyhrauch, sponsor of HB 349.
DAN WAYNE, Attorney
Legislative Legal and Research Services
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions during the hearing on HB
349.
ACTION NARRATIVE
VICE-CHAIR CARL GATTO called the House State Affairs Standing
Committee meeting to order at 8:08:10 AM. Representatives
Gatto, Elkins, Lynn, Ramras, and Gardner were present at the
call to order. Representative Gruenberg arrived as the meeting
was in progress.
HB 413-BURNING CAPABILITY OF CIGARETTES
8:09:12 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO announced that the first order of business was
HOUSE BILL NO. 413, "An Act relating to the burning capability
of cigarettes being sold, offered for sale, or possessed for
sale; and providing for an effective date."
8:09:47 AM
REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE, Alaska State Legislature,
testifying as sponsor of HB 413, said the bill would require
cigarette companies to change the way their cigarettes burn,
which in turn will prevent fires caused by smoldering
cigarettes. Currently, he said, cigarettes are designed to burn
all the way to the end when left unattended. He indicated that
there was some interest in the past to have a cigarette made
that burned more slowly, but the cigarette companies were
opposed to the idea. He explained that the way a cigarette is
made to burn slowly is by putting bands in a couple places on
the cigarette, the effect of which is to cause the cigarette to
slow its burning and then to "shut off."
8:13:21 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE said the State of New York adopted this law
in 2000, and approximately 40 percent of the cigarette companies
have adapted their product, thus far. Canada passed a similar
law nationwide. The states of Vermont and California adopted
the law in 2005. Representative Joule noted that Alaska is one
of several states considering this law; currently Hawaii and
Washington are also discussing the possibility. He stated that
the technology already exists. Representative Joule, having
previously admitted to being a cigarette smoker, suggested that
if there is a cost associated with the bill, perhaps those who
smoke may be the ones to carry some of the cost. He reiterated
that the bill is about safety and saving lives. If Alaska
adopts this legislation, he said, it will put pressure on the
U.S. Congress to do the same.
8:15:16 AM
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS said having been born in Alaska he is
aware of "the scarcity of choice." He said he is not a smoker,
but wants to ensure that all brands will be available under this
law.
8:16:09 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE answered that because the technology has
existed for a long time, he thinks all brands would be available
once the requirement is mandated.
8:16:32 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked what the reaction of cigarette
manufacturers has been.
8:16:51 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE offered his understanding that the reaction
has been a mixed one. He said he thinks Phillip Morris supports
the effort now, but was opposed to it initially. He said, "I
think they might be seeing the tide change."
8:17:21 AM
CRAIG GOODRICH, Fire Chief, Municipality of Anchorage; Member,
Fire Chiefs' Association in Alaska, testified in support of HB
413. In response to Representative Ramras' previous question,
he said the cigarette companies have been looking for and
expecting this legislation for some time. Essentially, he
explained, the self-extinguishing cigarette is a simple device.
He said it is slightly smaller in circumference and the tobacco
is more loosely packed. The additional band of cigarette paper
that is around it is called a "speed bump." He indicated that
there are a number of things that can be done to cause a
cigarette to automatically extinguish. He told committee
members they could expect to hear a lot of testimony related to
the number of fires, injuries, and deaths that occur from
improperly discarded cigarettes. Mr. Goodrich said Alaska could
expect between a 33-40 percent reduction in the number of fires
started in this manner and, by extension, the number of lives
lost would also be reduced. He said there are alternatives,
such as having a mandatory zero-square-foot ordinance; however,
it is an expensive proposition. He concluded by expressing his
appreciation of the committee's willingness to address this
issue.
8:20:20 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS asked if a chemical is added to pipe
tobacco to make it stop burning.
8:20:37 AM
MR. GOODRICH answered no, and he indicated that the question to
ask would be what companies do to cigarettes to keep them
burning. By engineering a cigarette to burn down whether or not
it is being smoked, the cigarette companies make more money.
The tobacco companies were never able to engineer pipe tobacco
so that it would continue to burn completely down in the bowl.
8:21:20 AM
JACK KRILL, Fire Chief, Central Matanuska Fire Department,
testified in support of HB 413. He revealed his background and
education in fire protection and safety engineering. He said
cigarettes left burning are a serious fire problem in the
nation. He offered the following facts about cigarette-ignited
fires: Cigarettes are the leading cause of fatal home fires in
the U.S., representing 25 percent of all fire deaths. Annually,
approximately 1,000 people in the U.S. die from fires started by
cigarettes, and an additional 3,000 are injured. More than 100
victims that die each year are children and nonsmokers. Two out
of five fire victims are 65 years of age or older. Cigarette
ignited fires cause more than $6 billion in property damage
every year; in 1997 alone, there were 130,000 cigarette-related
fires in the U.S.
MR. KRILL said Alaska has a chance to change those frightening
statistics through the passage of HB 413. The proposed
legislation would save lives in Alaska and likely lead to
significant advances in public safety throughout the country, he
said. The bill would require that all cigarettes marketed and
sold in Alaska be fire-safe, which he explained means they would
have a reduced propensity to burn when left unattended. Mr.
Krill explained that the typical scenario for a cigarette-
ignited fire is the delayed ignition of furniture or clothing
after a signature has been dropped or forgotten by a careless
smoker.
8:24:40 AM
MR. KRILL echoed the testimony of Mr. Goodrich regarding the
design changes that make up fire-safe cigarettes, adding that
the paper used would be less porous, and there would be no added
citrates in the paper. He related that a recently released
report out of New York noted that annual fire deaths blamed on
cigarettes have fallen by one third since that state's fire-safe
cigarette legislation went into effect.
8:25:31 AM
WARREN B. CUMMINGS, Fire Chief, City of Fairbanks; President,
Alaska Fire Chiefs Association (AFCA), testified on behalf of
the 129 members of AFCA in support of HB 413. The proposed
legislation, he said, will prohibit the sale, manufacture, and
distribution of cigarettes in Alaska that do not meet the fire-
safe standards established by the American Society of Testing of
Materials. Mr. Cummings reported that careless smoking is the
leading cause of fire deaths in Alaska; the fires caused by
careless smoking have resulted in 27.6 [percent] of all fire
deaths in Alaska between 1995-2004, killing 45 people in the
state during that time period.
8:27:39 AM
CAROL R. REED, President, Alaska State Firefighters Association,
had her written testimony [included in the committee packet]
presented by Michael Tilly. The testimony read as follows
[original punctuation provided]:
The Alaska State Firefighters Association supports
House Bill 413, introduced by Representative Reggie
Joule, legislation relating to cigarette fire safety.
Cigarettes are the [number] 1 cause of fatal fires in
the U.S., taking 700 to 800 lives a year. Annually,
property losses from fires caused by cigarettes run
into the hundreds of millions of dollars. Statistical
data of fire-related death in Alaska parallels those
of the U.S.
The State of New York introduced similar legislation
in 2004. Although it is too early to draw
conclusions, trends show a significant reduction in
loss of life and property as a result of the reduced
number of fires caused by cigarettes. With cigarettes
related to 25% of the cause of fatal fires in Alaska,
we believe safe cigarette legislation in Alaska would
save Alaskan lives.
In addition to saving Alaskan lives and property, the
safest fire for Alaska's emergency responders is the
one that was prevented.
MICHAEL TILLY, Fire Chief, City of Kenai; Member, Alaska Fire
Chiefs Association (AFCA), told the committee that he is also a
member of the Alaska State Firefighters Association (ASFA). Mr.
Tilly concurred with Ms. Reed's testimony, and he said HB 413 is
an important piece of legislation. He indicated that some
people think smokers made the choice to smoke [thereby
increasing their chances of a cigarette-related injury];
however, he pointed out that nonsmokers are dying in these
fires, as well. He concluded, "So, I think we need to remember
everybody else that's involved in this issue, not just them."
8:30:36 AM
GARY POWELL, Director State Fire Marshall, Central Office,
Division of Fire Prevention, Department of Public Safety,
testified in support of HB 413. He said the division has been
interested in this issue for some time. He echoed Mr. Tilly's
comments regarding the fact that there are other victims,
besides the smokers, who are affected by careless smoking. He
recollected hearing that there are approximately 800 people a
year who die from smoking-related fires. For example, in 2002,
760 people died, and 200 of those were not smokers.
MR. POWELL brought up arguments that may be heard against [the
bill] and the reasons why those arguments do not hold true.
First, he said some people say that there really is no such
thing as a cigarette that reduces the risk of a fire started
through careless cigarette use; however, that claim has already
been dispelled by the fact that those cigarettes are already
being sold. Second, he noted that some say state laws are
unnecessary because U.S. Congress is about to pass a national
bill. Mr. Powell said, "We just simply can't wait for this
rumor that they might be doing something, because in reality
they've been working on this since ... [1979], and we've seen no
results yet." Third, Mr. Powell said some people claim this is
just an anti-smoking campaign; however, he said no one is
telling people not to smoke, but to be safer while doing so.
8:33:37 AM
MR. POWELL continued highlighting and then countering existing
arguments against legislation such as HB 413. He said the
committee may hear people say that it is not yet known whether
such a measure will actually save lives. Conversely, he noted,
the National Fire Protection Association has conducted studies
to show [that legislation related to the burning capability of
cigarettes] will save lives. Mr. Powell said there is about six
months of solid data out of New York showing approximately a 33
percent reduction in fatalities. He said there is some lag time
in reporting and the division is anxiously awaiting a full year
of data.
MR. POWELL noted that some people claim that this legislation
will make cigarettes more toxic; however, the Harvard School of
Public Health conducted extensive studies on the products of
combustion released from the new cigarettes and found that there
is no increase in the hazard content of these cigarettes. He
added, "They did detect minimal increases in some of the
compounds being released, but no significant health issues at
all." He noted that those studies will be available in a few
days if the committee should wish to see them. At one point,
Mr. Powell said, the industry was saying it didn't know how to
make such cigarettes, but it is making them now. Another claim
heard recently is that there is not enough of the paper required
to construct the cigarettes, but manufacturers have met the
demand in New York and are now gearing up to meet the demand in
other states. He remarked that some have tried to say that this
legislation discriminates against the Mom and Pop retailers by
making things difficult. To that argument, Mr. Powell said,
"It's seamless: they get the cigarettes in, they sell the
cigarettes, I mean ... it makes no difference. It's like having
a Baby Ruth candy bar on the shelf today, and tomorrow it's a
different Baby Ruth with a little red stripe on the pack. ...
That's just one of the efforts that the industry will use to try
to rally support."
MR. POWELL said the committee may hear that upholstered
furniture and mattresses are the real problem. He admitted that
they are part of the problem. He said, as Mr. Goodrich
suggested, one way to solve that problem is to mandate
residential sprinklers, but that would be costly and difficult
to set as public policy. The other solution would be to
regulate upholstered furniture and mattresses and adopt a strict
standard, but he indicated that that would be costly to the
industry, may be more difficult to implement, and would
definitely take longer to adopt than the measure already
available.
8:37:26 AM
MR. POWELL said another argument is that the use of alcohol and
drugs is the real problem, because people drink, smoke, and drop
a cigarette, which starts a fire. He acknowledged that that
certainly is part of the problem - alcohol use is involved in
67-68 percent of fatal fires - but changing the burning
capabilities of cigarettes is easier than trying to address the
use of alcohol. Finally, Mr. Powell stated that some people say
an uneducated public may be the problem. He relayed that the
division does its best to educate people about the hazards of
activities that lead to fires and death and will continue to do
so; however, he said that would not have as immediate an impact
that a safe-cigarette bill would have. He stated that he
doesn't know of anyone who would be negatively affected by the
bill, and he concluded, "There are just too many positives to
not support [the bill]."
8:38:52 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked how the bill would impact cigarette
sales conducted through the Internet.
8:39:11 AM
MR. POWELL said he thinks there is some language in the bill
regarding Internet sales, but he deferred further response to
the bill's sponsor. He commented that there is one exception
for military installations.
8:39:42 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to page 7, lines 12-
13, which read as follows:
(e) The state fire marshal and the attorney
general may enforce the penalties established under
this section.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked, "Is that within your normal
description; do you force the penalties, normally, in other
parts of the law?"
8:40:43 AM
MR. POWELL answered yes.
8:40:48 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG turned to the definition of "cigarette"
on page 8, lines 24-29, which read as follows:
(1) "cigarette" means any roll for smoking,
made wholly or in part of tobacco, irrespective of
size or shape and irrespective of whether the tobacco
is flavored, adulterated, or mixed with another
ingredient, if the roll has a wrapper or cover made of
paper or another material, unless the wrapper is
wholly or in the greater part made of tobacco and the
roll weighs over three pounds for each one thousand
cigarettes;
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he contrasted that definition with
the general definition of cigarette in revenue code, found in AS
43.50.170(2), and there seems to be a difference. He said the
language added to the bill that is not in regulation is: "and
the roll weighs over three pounds for each one thousand
cigarettes". He asked Mr. Powell if he knew why this language
is in the bill and not in the general definition.
MR. POWELL said he does not know.
8:41:58 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to the penalty
section on page 7, [lines 9-11], subsection (d), which read:
(d) If a person violates a provision of this
chapter and a civil penalty is not set for the
violation, the person is subject to a civil penalty
not to exceed $1,000 for each violation.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he would like to compare that
language with that on page 4, lines 3-7, which read as follows:
Sec. 18.74.080. Certification requirement. A
manufacturer shall certify in writing to the state
fire marshal that each brand of cigarette listed in
the certificate has been tested under AS 18.74.030 and
satisfies the testing standard in AS 18.74.030(d), or
has been tested under AS 18.74.050 and satisfies a
standard equivalent to the standard in AS
18.74.030(d).
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG observed that the only penalty is a
civil one. He said the same is true on page 7, lines 5-8, which
read as follows:
(c) In addition to any other penalty prescribed
by law, a person engaged in the manufacture of
cigarettes who knowingly makes a false certification
under AS 18.74.080 is subject to a civil penalty not
to exceed $10,000 for each false certification.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG, regarding the language on page 5, line
3, suggested requiring that the manufacturer shall certify in
writing "under oath". He asked Mr. Powell, "Do you think there
might be some benefit in making this, in addition, a
misdemeanor?"
8:43:31 AM
MR. POWELL responded that there might be some advantage to that.
8:43:41 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG noted that there would have to be some
conforming language on page 7.
8:44:14 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO said he is trying to make sense of how the
cigarette will be more loosely packed but have less toxins.
8:44:47 AM
MR. POWELL suggested that the study that was done is not flawed,
but that the entire product was measured, not just the tobacco.
He said he could get a copy of study or provide an expert
witness who was "the key to passing this in New York."
8:45:43 AM
MR. POWELL, in response to a question from Vice Chair Gatto,
reviewed the make up and purpose of the previously mentioned
speed bump.
8:46:09 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO, in response to a comment from Representative
Ramras, said he had asked Mr. Powell whether this new type of
cigarette would change the habits of smokers, for example,
requiring them to drag harder, deeper, or more often, and Mr.
Powell indicated to him that the smoker would not notice a
difference between the current and "safe" cigarette.
MR. POWELL confirmed that he has heard testimony of smokers who
had a preconceived idea that the cigarette would be different,
but in the end stated that they could tell no difference.
8:46:43 AM
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS expressed concern that people - perceiving
smoking as safer - would in turn smoke more cigarettes per day.
8:47:08 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO related that many fires start because someone
who was sitting or lying on a couch, drinking and smoking,
flicked some ashes away at 2:00 a.m., but the ashes didn't start
the fire until 4:00 a.m. He asked, "Would the safe cigarette
prevent that?"
8:48:29 AM
MR. POWELL replied:
That's exactly the scenario that this would prevent.
The idea is, as you said, it has to lay there for
quite some time to actually ignite a mattress, the
comforter, the easy chair, the recliner - whatever the
person's in. And the idea is this will actually self-
extinguish before it sets there that long to start a
fire, and it's precisely the issue we're trying to
solve here.
8:49:02 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS, in regard to Vice Chair Gatto's example,
said he thinks that that late at night there doesn't have to be
[alcohol] involved; somebody could just be drinking a soda and
have the same thing happen.
8:49:35 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO said that's true, but statistically it seems to
be "a can of beer." He said another factor is that smokers tend
to have a wastebasket next to the couch and just flick the
cigarette into the basket. Hours later the wastebasket is on
fire. He talked about the drastic injuries from fires. He
stated, "To see burn victims who survive is to see someone who
is truly devastated about the result of the fire, in addition to
the people who are grieving losses." He predicted that the
committee would be passing the bill, but noted that there were
some more people to testify.
8:50:14 AM
JEFF JOHNSON, President, Western Fire Chiefs Association (WFCA),
testified on behalf of Alaska and nine other western states
[affiliated with] the International Association of Fire Chiefs
(IAFC). He echoed the message of previous testifiers that
cigarettes are one of the leading causes of fires and this type
of legislation is "having a statistical impact." On behalf of
the association, he urged the committee to pass HB 413. He
concluded, "I thank you for the opportunity ... as a non-Alaskan
for you to accept my testimony on behalf of your state and its
membership in our association."
8:52:15 AM
MR. JOHNSON, in response to a question from Representative
Gruenberg, said he doesn't know whether HB 413 is based on the
New York model. Notwithstanding that, he said WFCA is asking
the 10 western states to introduce legislation that is based on
the New York model bill, "and in talking to our partners at the
coalition, ... this bill appears to work and is close enough to
that model." He deferred to Andrew McGuire for further
response.
8:53:24 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG stated for record that the sponsor and
his staff were nodding and telling him that HB 413 was based on
the New York and California models. He said he wants to know if
there is anything from other state laws that Alaska ought to
incorporate in order to pass the best bill possible.
8:53:45 AM
ANDREW McGUIRE testified on behalf of the National Fire
Protection Association, based in Massachusetts, in support of HB
413. He stated his understanding that Representative Joule's
staff used the language from the California bill to create HB
413; however, the California model, and most of the other
states' related bills - with rare minor exceptions - are based
on the New York bill. He said that is deliberate, because "the
last thing that we would want to do is have the cigarette
manufacturers have to comply to different standards." Mr.
McGuire revealed that he has been working on this issue for
almost 30 years.
8:55:38 AM
MR. McGUIRE, regarding Representative Ramras' previously stated
concern, said the Harvard School of Public Health conducted
studies to see if fire-safe cigarettes are more toxic or make
people smoke more. It was found that the smoking rate did not
increase or decrease in New York and neighboring Massachusetts
compared to prior years. Furthermore, testing more than 20
compounds, no major difference in toxicity was found between
fire-safe cigarettes and regular cigarettes within the same
brands. He added, "And these are cancer researchers; these are
people who are looking at this from that health point of view,
not from the fire point of view. They are satisfied that a
fire-safe cigarette - a cigarette that has slightly thicker
paper on a couple of ... bands on the ... tobacco column - ...
[does] not cause more toxicity to the smoker." He said that
information is public. He concluded, "If you do hear testimony
from the tobacco industry, you'll probably hear the opposite of
what I'm saying, but I let the science stand for itself."
8:58:17 AM
MR. McGUIRE, in response to questions from Representative
Gruenberg, specified that he has been employed by the National
Fire Protection Association (NFPA) as the director of the
national campaign for fire-safe cigarettes, and the NFPA has
been around for over a century and educates the public on fire
prevention, and establishes electrical codes that lead to the
prevention of fires that fire departments use around the world.
He offered his understanding that NFPA was initially formed by
the insurance industry and the fire service. In response to a
follow-up question from Representative Gruenberg, Mr. McGuire
said he is not an attorney, but the reason that he is involved
is that he suffered a burn injury as a child. In response to
further questions from Representative Gruenberg, he said he is
familiar with other statutes similar to HB 413 and he thinks
Representative Gruenberg's earlier suggestion to require [the
manufacturers' certifications] to be done under oath is a good
one and would not render Alaska's legislation different than
that of New York or other states. He said it is the prerogative
of the legislature to define what type of penalties it wants to
assign. He stated, "The real issue in conformity, state-to-
state, is that the ... fire safety performance standard and
everything around that is identical, so that the product itself
can meet each state's standard the same way."
9:00:22 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Mr. McGuire if he is aware if any
commerce clause or preemption issues have been raised. He
clarified, "Are states free to legislate in this area, or are
there any federal problems?"
9:00:35 AM
MR. McGUIRE replied:
The first time that was raised was when the State of
Maryland introduced the fire-safe cigarette bill in
1984. And then the tobacco institute raised the
commerce clause as a problem. ... The state attorney
general of Maryland issued an opinion that there was
no commerce clause issue, nor was there any preemption
issue, and since 1984, the tobacco industry has never
raised that issue. And there can't be preemption,
because there's no federal legislation in this arena
regarding fire safety and cigarettes, so, there's no
law to preempt.
MR. McGUIRE, in response to a request from Representative
Gruenberg, said he would send a copy of the Maryland attorney
general's opinion to him by facsimile.
9:01:44 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG reiterated that there is an existing
definition of "cigarette" in Alaska's revenue code that is
almost identical to the definition on page 8, lines 28-29,
except that the latter definition contains additional language
[text provided previously].
9:02:10 AM
MR. McGUIRE explained that the additional language was inserted
"in the iterations of creating the New York bill" to include
small cigars.
9:02:39 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said, "The reason I'm asking is not
because it's overinclusive, but because it might be
underinclusive."
9:02:50 AM
MR. McGUIRE responded, "The data shows that those kinds of small
cigars and regular cigars are not a fire problem; they typically
self-extinguish regardless of any technology or any purposeful
act of the tobacco companies, so that's why I think they were
excluded."
9:03:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to page 9, line 21,
which read:
(A) giving cigarettes as samples,
prizes, or gifts; or
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG noted that he had brought a bill to the
legislature years ago which did not pass, but which would have
made it illegal to do "tobacco sampling." He said he was told
that that whole practice is illegal in some jurisdictions. He
asked Mr. McGuire if he is aware of that.
9:04:06 AM
MR. McGUIRE said he has not heard of a statewide or national
standard in that regard, thus, it must be only jurisdictional.
9:04:26 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked that Mr. McGuire and Mr. Johnson send
their background information by facsimile to the bill sponsor.
9:05:30 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said he would like to know how the bill
would address the practice of buying cigarettes via the Internet
that are manufactured overseas.
9:06:02 AM
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS offered his understanding that a person
cannot buy cigarettes over the Internet, because they are
"regulated by state stamps."
9:06:26 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO stated his belief that there are people who
continue to try, but are "chased down by state authorities ...."
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said, "I have a personal friend who does."
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS stated, "It's illegal to do it in the
first place."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG noted that the House Special Committee
on Ways and Means had heard testimony on the issue a couple
years ago.
9:06:41 AM
MARGE LARSON, American Lung Association, testified as follows:
As a public health advocate, I am always leery of the
word "safe" in any way related to cigarettes, there
being no safe use of tobacco, and I'm sure that's what
a lot of folks expected me to say. That said, if we
can reduce the toll of tobacco deaths and reduce
wildfires and wildfire smoke by legislating self-
extinguishing cigarettes, American Lung Association of
Alaska supports that and applauds the firefighter's
strong advocacy on this bill. Our support, however,
is dependent on the Alaska statute strictly following
the strong model legislations of other states, and on
no additions being amended to this bill.
9:07:38 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO closed public testimony.
9:07:48 AM
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS expressed his support of the Alaska Fire
Standards Council.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO reopened public testimony for an additional
question.
9:08:37 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said language on page 4, lines 18-19
relates to cigarettes that cannot be tested by the generally
established method in national standards. He asked Mr. McGuire,
"What kind of a cigarette couldn't be tested, and why not?"
9:09:16 AM
MR. McGUIRE explained that 12-15 years ago, R.J. Reynolds
introduced a "smokeless cigarette." He said it consisted of an
aluminum tube wrapped on the outside with tobacco and white
paper, filled inside with pellets of nicotine, and a "burning
coal at the end that burned and, in a sense, decomposed the
nicotine for people to get nicotine." He said nothing ever
actually burned; "once you smoked one of those smokeless
cigarettes, you were left with a long tube." He said that
product would not cause fires, because the coal was hidden from
contact with any surface; however, it wouldn't apply to the
current ASTM International method of extinguishment "where you
place the cigarette on pieces of paper and watch whether or not
there [are] ignitions." He said [the language on page 4, lines
18-19] is there to take into account bizarre technology that may
come from the cigarette that won't cause ignition but won't pass
the ASTM standard.
[That was the last of the public testimony.]
9:10:41 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE told the committee that a cigarette-ignited
fire that occurred "as early as 1929" came to the attention of
someone in the U.S. Congress. The National Bureau of Standards
developed the technology for self-snubbing cigarettes in 1932,
after three years of research. He said the technology for fire-
safe cigarettes has been around a long time, and he urged the
committee to pass HB 413.
9:12:39 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Representative Joule if he would
support his previously suggested amendments. In response to a
request from Representative Joule, he reviewed that the first
amendment would include changes to the language on page 5,
between lines 3-7, page 5, line 31, and page 7, lines 5-8, and
would concern civil penalties added in addition to any other
criminal penalties and would "allow it to be false swearing,
which is a misdemeanor."
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE said he would have no objection to that
amendment.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said his second idea for an amendment
is in regard to page 6, lines 24-27, which read:
Sec. 18.74.160. Penalties for violations. (a) A
manufacturer or another person who knowingly sells or
offers to sell cigarettes other than through retail
sale and in violation of this chapter is subject to a
civil penalty not to exceed $10,000 for each sale.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he is not sure if the words "in
this state" should be added between the words "cigarettes" and
"other". He explained that he wants to ensure the language is
legal because "we don't have any jurisdiction outside the
state."
9:14:43 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE suggested that Representative Gruenberg
could "take a look between now and [the House Judiciary Standing
Committee hearing on HB 413] on the second possibility."
9:15:19 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved Conceptual Amendment 1, as
follows:
On page 5, line 3:
Between "certify" and "in"
Insert "under oath"
On page 5, line 31:
Between "submit" and "its"
Insert "under oath"
On page 7, line 5:
Between "other" and "penalty"
Insert "civil or criminal"
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he would leave it up to the bill
drafters to decide whether or not the third portion of
Conceptual Amendment 1 is necessary.
9:17:16 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked if there was any objection to Conceptual
Amendment 1. There being none, Conceptual Amendment 1 was
adopted.
9:18:02 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN moved to report HB 413, as amended, out of
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying
fiscal notes. There being no objection CSHB 413(STA) was
reported out of the House State Affairs Standing Committee.
HB 349-COMMISSION ON LEG. COMP. & ALLOWANCES
9:18:53 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO announced that the last order of business was
HOUSE BILL NO. 349, "An Act relating to legislator salary and
benefits; establishing the Citizens' Commission on Legislative
Salary and Benefits and defining its powers and duties and
abolishing the State Officers Compensation Commission; and
providing for an effective date by repealing secs. 9 and 12, ch.
124, SLA 1986."
9:19:31 AM
JACQUELINE TUPOU, Staff to Representative Bruce Weyhrauch,
Alaska State Legislature, on behalf of Representative Weyhrauch,
sponsor of HB 349, told the committee that the suggestions from
the committee at the last bill hearing were incorporated into a
committee substitute.
9:19:51 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER moved to adopt the proposed committee
substitute (CS) for HB 349, Version 24-LS1391\X, Wayne, 2/8/06,
as a work draft. There being no objections, Version X was
before the committee.
9:20:18 AM
MS. TUPOU said the sponsor, in response to a request from
Representative Gruenberg at the prior bill hearing, [reinstated]
language pertaining to the date by which the Alaska Legislative
Council would have to submit its final report to the
legislature, as shown on page 4, line 13, as follows:
during the first 30 [10] days of a legislative
session.
MS. TUPOU, regarding another change made, directed attention to
[page 4, beginning on line 16], which read:
The Alaska Legislative Council shall publish the final
report made available under AS 39.23.240(d)
MS. TUPOU explained that previously the language had been
permissive and read "may" instead of "shall".
9:21:15 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO, after ascertaining that there was no one to
testify, closed public testimony.
9:21:43 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER cited AS 39.23.240(a), which read:
Sec. 39.23.240. Duties of the commission.
(a) The commission shall review the salaries,
benefits, and allowances of members of the legislature
and prepare a report on its findings at least once
every two years, but not more frequently than every
year. The commission shall notify the legislature that
the report is available.
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked if what the committee is doing now
is working to "separate out who decides salaries from benefits
and allowances."
MS. TUPOU responded, "If you're referring to the current
statutes, the current statutes are not being implemented because
they're unconstitutional."
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER said she understands that.
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked Ms. Tupou, "Could you tell us what the
current statute that's unconstitutional is?"
9:22:38 AM
MS. TUPOU answered, "Yeah, the current statute provides for a
similar program in the way that it's a commission, but it has
members of the executive branch in there, and so, that sort of
violates the separation of powers. And so, it's
unconstitutional, and so, without a constitutional amendment,
it's never been implemented since it got on the books in 1986."
9:23:06 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER offered her understanding that under the
proposed bill the salary of the legislators would still
ultimately be determined by the Alaska Legislative Council.
9:23:23 AM
MS. TUPOU confirmed that is correct. She said the legislature
has to have authority over its salary; "any other change to that
would be unconstitutional."
9:23:36 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER proffered, "Except that [the President of
the Senate] and the Speaker of House would be getting this
additional 'bump' that's not ... considered and responded by the
[Alaska Legislative Council]."
9:23:56 AM
MS. TUPOU answered that's correct. She said the reason for that
is that, under the Alaska State Constitution, the aforementioned
two positions are separated to receive additional compensation.
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked, "And under the constitution, then,
it ... needs to be determined differently from other salary
matters?"
MS. TUPOU directed attention to page 1, [line 14] of Version X,
which shows that the amount that the President of the Senate and
the House Speaker has been changed from $500 a year to $500 a
month.
9:24:39 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked if the constitution directs the
legislature to address the question of the salaries of the
President of the Senate and the House Speaker, or "somehow we
interpreted that."
9:24:55 AM
MS. TUPOU conjectured that since there is specific reference in
the Alaska State Constitution that the aforementioned will
receive compensation, while "other legislators" are not
mentioned specifically, "that's why it would be initially in the
statute." She added, "And then we've amended it in our bill
because it was in the original statute."
9:25:20 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked Ms. Tupou if she is saying that the only
people entitled to any kind of compensation are the President of
the Senate and the House Speaker, and the rest of the
legislators are "subject to [the Alaska] Legislative Council's
desires."
MS. TUPOU deferred the question to Dan Wayne.
9:25:29 AM
DAN WAYNE, Attorney, Legislative Legal and Research Services,
referred to Article 2, Section 7, of the Alaska State
Constitution, which read as follows:
SECTION 7. Salary and Expenses.Legislators shall
receive annual salaries. They may receive a per diem
allowance for expenses while in session and are
entitled to travel expenses going to and from
sessions. Presiding officers may receive additional
compensation.
9:26:24 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked Mr. Wayne if there would be any
problem legally in having the additional compensation of the
presiding officers handled in the same way "that we're proposing
salaries be handled going through the commission and then
through [Legislative] Council."
9:26:42 AM
MR. WAYNE answered no, because ultimately it is the Alaska
Legislative Council that is making the decision about what the
salary and benefits will be. He stated, "Inserting the
commission into that process, with respect to salary and
benefits, ... allows a citizens' group to study it, make
recommendations, and so forth, which become effective if the
[Alaska] Legislative Council and the legislature decide not to
... make any changes to them." Mr. Wayne indicated that the
decision not to do anything is, in essence, "an act."
9:27:35 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER opined that in the interest of full
disclosure and public participation, all the salaries, including
"any additional," should go through the same process of a
citizens' commission and be possibly amended then confirmed by
the Alaska Legislative Council. She asked Ms. Tupou what the
sponsor's response would be to an amendment that would delete
the provision related to additional salary for the President of
the Senate and the House Speaker.
9:28:31 AM
MS. TUPOU said that she could not support or oppose any
amendments proposed during the meeting because the bill sponsor
would not have had a chance to consider them ahead of time.
The committee took an at-ease from 9:28:41 AM to 9:28:46 AM.
9:30:16 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO, in response to a request from Representative
Gruenberg, recapped Representative Gardner's amendment idea.
9:30:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER clarified that she has no objection to
the aforementioned positions receiving an increase in salary,
but she doesn't know that they should be handled differently
than the other issues.
9:30:51 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked Mr. Wayne for suggested language to
use in an amendment that would require that the salaries of the
President of the Senate and the House Speaker would be
determined in the same manner as other salary adjustments, which
would be through the commission's recommendations and through
the Alaska Legislative Council.
9:31:32 AM
MR. WAYNE suggested deleting the sentence [beginning on page 1,
line 13, through page 2, line 1], which read as follows:
The president of the senate and the speaker of the
house of representatives are each entitled to an
additional $500 a month [YEAR] during tenure of
office.
MR. WAYNE also suggested adding language under Section 4 so that
it would be another duty of the Alaska Legislative Council to
set the amount. Alternatively, he suggested that language could
be added under Section 10 to charge the commission with the task
of determining whether additional compensation is paid to the
President of the Senate and the House Speaker, and, if so, how
much it would be.
9:32:41 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO directed attention to the sentence beginning on
page 1, line 13 [text provided previously], and suggested
changing language within the sentence to read:
may each be entitled, at the discretion of Legislative
Council to an additional salary of
9:32:58 AM
MR. WAYNE responded that Vice Chair Gatto's suggestion would
accomplish the same thing as striking the sentence and "putting
a sentence under Section 4," but it would still leave the
commission out of the decision, leaving it up to the Alaska
Legislative Council. He said, "I suppose it just depends on
whether or not it's the will of the legislature to have ... the
commission study it and make recommendations to the council and
then have the council act, or to just have the council handle it
(indisc. -- paper shuffling) from that." He said he thinks one
issue is whether additional compensation, as shown in Article 2,
Section 7, is meant to be the same as salary, or if it is an
allowance. He said that as he was drafting the bill, he was
thinking of additional compensation as allowance.
9:34:23 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO suggested that the term "allowance" should only
apply during session, because that is the only time when [the
President of the Senate and the House Speaker] serve in an
official capacity "on the podium."
9:34:49 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS disagreed with Vice Chair Gatto's remark.
He said the work load of the President of the Senate and the
House Speaker doesn't diminish that much during interim, and may
even increase.
9:35:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER moved Conceptual Amendment 1, to make the
allowance be considered by the commission and ultimately
determined by the Alaska Legislative Council.
9:35:35 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS objected to Conceptual Amendment 1. He
explained:
I think it's pretty obvious by the salary of $2001 a
month that this legislature is not overpaid, and it's
been that way for a number of years. And as far as
public participation goes, if a pay raise would have
to come through in a bill, there's plenty of time for
all kinds of public input. ... Whether the public
likes it or [doesn't] like it, they have an
opportunity at us every two years in the House. And
I'm not in favor of setting up a commission outside of
this body to ... recommend our pay at all. I think
that's our job; I think that's what we were elected to
do, and then stand before the people and see if they
accept it.
9:36:29 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER reiterated that the question really is
not whether [certain members of the body] should get more or
less, but whether that decision should be handled any
differently than the decisions for the salary benefits and
allowances "for the rest of us."
9:37:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS reemphasized that his point is that "the
decision should be handled in this body and only in this body."
9:37:23 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO said that's a separate question. He suggested
that Representative Elkins is really saying that "we shouldn't
even have this bill."
9:37:40 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS responded, "Basically, yes."
VICE CHAIR GATTO said allowing the legislature to establish its
own salaries would look inherently unfair to the public, thus,
he said he thinks having a recommendation from a separate ground
is a good idea. He said Representative Gardner is proposing
that that separate group not only make a recommendation for the
legislature's salaries, but also for "any bump for the speaker
and the president."
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER concurred with Vice Chair Gatto's
estimation of the intent of Conceptual Amendment 1.
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked if there were any other objections to
Conceptual Amendment 1.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN objected, then removed his objection [when
it was clarified that Representative Elkins still objected.]
9:38:53 AM
A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Gardner and Gatto
voted in favor of Conceptual Amendment 1. Representatives Lynn
and Elkins voted against it. Therefore, Conceptual Amendment 1
failed to be adopted by a vote of 2-2.
9:39:52 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER restated her concern regarding full
disclosure and public participation, even bearing in mind the
previous remarks from Representative Elkins. She said she would
like the final report from the citizens' commission on
legislative benefits described in Section 12, line 13 [under the
old bill].
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER indicated that she would like to offer an
amendment that would require that the report the commission
makes available to the Alaska Legislative Council be
simultaneously made available to the public.
9:41:29 AM
MR. WAYNE suggested:
On page 4, line 10:
Between "to" and "the Alaska Legislative Council"
Insert "the public and"
9:41:44 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked Representative Gardner if that would be
sufficient.
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER answered, "That's great." [Conceptual
Amendment 2 was considered moved for adoption.]
9:42:11 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS offered his understanding that once the
report is distributed to the Alaska Legislative Council it is
available to the public already.
9:42:19 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO said he doesn't think that is necessarily true.
He explained that the Alaska Legislative Council has information
on other things that are discussed and are under contract, thus,
information given to the council can be public document, but in
some instances is not. He said Representative Gardner wants to
delineate that question by specifying that "this document - not
all documents - ... be available to the public."
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS replied, "I think this document would be
anyway because it's not proprietary and the other one is."
9:42:46 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER relayed her concern is to ensure the
public knows exactly what the commission recommends and
ultimately what the Alaska Legislative Council goes with, and
she wants both those elements "to be available without
question."
9:42:58 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO stated his agreement with Representative
Elkins' remark that the Alaska Legislative Council "would not
hold this as discretionary information anyway," thus,
[Conceptual Amendment 2] would not add any measure of
accountability to the bill.
9:43:39 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER responded:
You may very well be right [Vice Chair Gatto], but as
you explained earlier, it's very ... difficult for
legislators to make recommendations regarding their
own salary and benefits, and we're introducing this
bill, in part, to address that and have a process that
is open and allows input from other people, so that
ultimately what happens is clear and open. And I just
want to ensure that every part of that is clear and
open, so that afterwards we can't be accused of trying
to hide any part of the process.
9:44:12 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN recommended erring on the side of public
disclosure.
9:44:18 AM
VICE CHAIR GATTO reviewed Conceptual Amendment 2 and asked if
there was any objection.
9:44:36 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS objected for discussion purposes. He
admitted, "Sometimes I gristle when public disclosure comes up
because ... it ... implies ... we would do something illegal,
and I don't believe we would do anything illegal." He said, "I
do not believe for a minute that this item would be held ... not
for public discretion by the [Alaska] Legislative Council." He
said he has a problem with [Conceptual Amendment 2].
9:45:20 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER said she does not intend to imply that
the Alaska Legislative Council would be anything less than
honorable at any step of the way, but she wants to ensure the
public that "we are making every effort to be open about the
entire process of discussing possible raises, salaries, and
benefits."
9:46:30 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG indicated that [Conceptual Amendment 2]
may not be technically be necessary, but it would certainly
offer some assurance to the public. He told Representative
Elkins he hopes he will reconsider his objection, because the
bill is not controversial, will do no harm, and will offer
confidence to the public.
9:47:17 AM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS removed his objection.
VICE CHAIR GATTO asked if there was any further objection to
Conceptual Amendment 2. There being none, it was so ordered.
9:47:47 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER, in response to a request from
Representative Gruenberg, reviewed the subject of the failed
Conceptual Amendment 1.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG, after ascertaining that the vote on
Conceptual Amendment 1 had been 2-2, asked if any committee
member would be willing to ask for a reconsideration so he could
vote.
9:48:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked for reconsideration to Conceptual
Amendment 1.
[Discussion took place regarding the rules of reconsideration,
which members had actually been present during the roll call
vote on Conceptual Amendment 1, and the timing of holding the
bill versus moving it through committee.]
9:50:48 AM
A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Gruenberg, Gatto,
and Gardner voted in favor of Conceptual Amendment 1.
Representatives Elkins and Lynn voted against it. Therefore,
Conceptual Amendment 1 was adopted by a vote of 3-2.
9:51:42 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to report CSHB 349, Version 24-
LS1391\X, Wayne, 2/8/06, as amended, out of committee with
individual recommendations. There being no objection, CSHB
349(STA) was reported out of the House State Affairs Standing
Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at
9:53:03 AM.
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