Legislature(2017 - 2018)BARNES 124
02/19/2018 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
Note: the audio ![]()
and video ![]()
recordings are distinct records and are obtained from different sources. As such there may be key differences between the two. The audio recordings are captured by our records offices as the official record of the meeting and will have more accurate timestamps. Use the icons to switch between them.
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| Presentation: Proposed Pebble Mine | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 19, 2018
1:04 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Andy Josephson, Co-Chair
Representative Geran Tarr, Co-Chair
Representative John Lincoln, Vice Chair
Representative Harriet Drummond
Representative Justin Parish
Representative Chris Birch
Representative DeLena Johnson
Representative George Rauscher
Representative David Talerico
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Mike Chenault (alternate)
Representative Chris Tuck (alternate)
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
PRESENTATION: PROPOSED PEBBLE MINE
- HEARD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
No previous action to record
WITNESS REGISTER
LINDSAY LAYLAND, Deputy Director
United Tribes of Bristol Bay
Dillingham, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to the development of
the Pebble Mine.
NORMAN VAN VACTOR, President/CEO
Bristol Bay Economic Development Corporation
Dillingham, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to the development of
the Pebble Mine.
NANCI MORRIS LYON, Owner/Operator
Bear Trail Lodge
King Salmon, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to the development of
the Pebble Mine.
DAVID CHAMBERS PhD, President/Founder
Center for Science in Public Participation
Bozeman, Montana
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to the development of
the Pebble Mine.
DANIEL SCHINDLER PhD, Professor
School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences
University of Washington
Seattle, Washington
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to the development of
the Pebble Mine.
RICK HALFORD, Consultant
United Tribes of Bristol Bay; Registered Guide
Eagle River, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to the development of
the Pebble Mine.
TOM TILDEN, First Chief
Curyung Tribal Council; Board Member
Choggiung Ltd.
Dillingham, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to the development of
the Pebble Mine.
ACTION NARRATIVE
1:04:51 PM
CO-CHAIR ANDY JOSEPHSON called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:04 p.m. Representatives
Josephson, Birch, Parish, Talerico, Drummond, Tarr, and Lincoln
were present at the call to order. Representatives Johnson and
Rauscher arrived as the meeting was in progress.
^PRESENTATION: PROPOSED PEBBLE MINE
PRESENTATION: PROPOSED PEBBLE MINE
1:05:54 PM
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON announced that the only order of business
would be presentations on the proposed Pebble Mine.
1:06:24 PM
LINDSAY LAYLAND, Deputy Director, United Tribes of Bristol Bay
(UTBB), informed the committee UTTB is a Tribal government
consortium based in Dillingham representing 15 Tribes in the
Bristol Bay region, including 80 percent of the population
living year around in Bristol Bay. She stated the people of
Bristol Bay continue to oppose the Pebble project as they have
for many years; in fact, she has "grown up with the threat of
Pebble Mine." Ms. Layland stressed opposition from the
residents of Bristol Bay is not rooted in general disagreement
with mining, resource extraction, or economic development, but
is based on its location because the Pebble deposit rests under
the wetlands, streams, and surface and ground waters responsible
for Bristol Bay salmon. Much earlier, this issue was brought
forth by Tribal elders and subsistence users who know the
waterways and recognized the waters must be protected. Bristol
Bay is defined by its fish and pristine fish habitat that
provides economic opportunity, however, the fish are also
critical to a way of life; according to the Alaska Department of
Fish & Game (ADFG), families in Bristol Bay harvest an average
of 150-500 pounds of salmon each year for subsistence purposes.
Ms. Layland recalled previous information provided to the
committee [on 2/16/18] from a representative of Pebble that
indicated the North and South Koktuli Rivers are responsible for
0.5 of 1 percent of Bristol Bay salmon, and she pointed out this
percentage referred only to sockeye salmon; however, these
rivers provide the spawning and rearing habitat for two
important subsistence resources in Bristol Bay: king and silver
salmon. She said it is undeniable that the project would impact
waters and fish because the construction and operation of the
mine would require dewatering streams, filling in wetlands, and
changing the waterway, which is the basis for opposition to the
mine by the people of Bristol Bay. Ms. Layland noted her
resolute opposition to the Pebble project is based upon science
and history, and she is passionate about protecting her way of
life, her commercial fishing business, her livelihood, and her
home.
1:11:19 PM
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH asked for a sense of Tribal members'
support.
MS. LAYLAND, speaking from her experience with members of the
UTBB board, said member Tribes are committed to protecting and
preserving their way of life, thus support from Tribal
communities is strong. In further response to Representative
Parish's question as to whether there is controversy about the
project, she acknowledged in any community there are opposing
sides, although her personal and professional experience is that
opposition is comprehensive.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH asked whether many UTBB constituents
commute to work on the North Slope or hold jobs outside of their
communities.
MS. LAYLAND said she could not answer.
1:14:16 PM
NORMAN VAN VACTOR, President/CEO, Bristol Bay Economic
Development Corporation (BBEDC), said his corporation is one of
six Community Development Quota (CDQ), National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce, groups
in Alaska, and represents 17 coastal communities from Port
Heiden to Togiak. [BBEDC's] mission is to support, enhance, and
promote sustainable and renewable economy; in the last five
years BBEDC has spent an average of over $22 million per year of
net income into the communities and the watershed. He said the
following testimony from leaders of the community, and others,
will provide science based on fact and not on "the
hypothetical." Mr. Van Vactor said he has witnessed the
economic engine generated by the annual salmon runs in Bristol
Bay; Bristol Bay boasts the most valuable and largest salmon
fishery remaining in the world, supplying over one-half of the
world's wild sockeye. He explained the importance of the
Bristol Bay economic engine and the role of government and
regulatory agencies to assist residents of the region and the
state, and to protect important cultural and economic resources.
He recalled at the time of the new administration [in Alaska], a
fisheries' group informed the governor of the utmost importance
of fish to the state, a statement repeated recently by ADFG;
however, there has been no action. He cautioned that with no
action there is reaction, as evidenced by sponsors of HB 199 and
the "salmon initiative." Mr. Van Vactor suggested a Bristol Bay
management plan would review Pebble's water rights application
and other questions that need to be answered. Residents of
Bristol Bay have in common their lives and their economic focus
on salmon, which extends to other regions of Alaska, the rest of
the U.S., and the world. The fishery supports over 14,000 jobs,
raises over $1.6 billion, supports over 2,300 small businesses,
and last summer about 60 million fish returned. Further, the
gross revenue of $1.6 billion is facilitated by ADFG at a cost
to the state of about $2 million. Bristol Bay is sustained by
commercial, sport, and subsistence fisheries far beyond the
sockeye fishery credited by Pebble's statistics. Mr. Van Vactor
said Pebble is advancing its project based on untruths; even
though the region needs jobs, it is a deception that the project
can build a mine that will not harm salmon. For example, Mount
Polley [in British Columbia, Canada] was supposed to be a small
mine that would cause no harm. Even with the Pebble Mine's
smaller footprint, it is clear the mine cannot coexist safely
with salmon when toxic tailings are involved. He said BBEDC
supports efforts to protect salmon without turning away
responsible mining interests that may provide protections for
land and water. He provided an offending statement from a
representative of Northern Dynasty Minerals Ltd., comparing the
mine site to Kansas [document not provided]. He stressed the
legitimacy of supporting the people and the economy of the
region, and reported the U. S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA) acknowledged the value of the resources of Bristol Bay;
further, as a businessman, he said he would welcome regulators
informing him of the core parameters of the requirements to
obtain a permit. Mr. Van Vactor concluded the waters of Bristol
Bay support a fishery that is the foundation of the region and
is a national treasure, and residents are likeminded in their
efforts to protect the resource.
1:21:30 PM
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH recalled the committee has heard proposed
legislation to raise the minimum tax on oil from the North Slope
from 4 percent to 7 percent. He asked what proportion of the
value of the Bristol Bay fishery is paid out in taxes.
MR. VAN VACTOR estimated 2.25 percent, which can vary by
borough.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH questioned whether a more equitable rate
would be an increase to 4 percent.
MR. VAN VACTOR said, "... I think there's always room, but at
the end of the day, any taxes ... imposed would in all
likelihood, quite frankly, unfortunately, get passed along to
the lowest common denominator ... our fisher people and the
residents of the region ...."
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON noted in 2016, the governor proposed an
increase to the fisheries landing tax and to every revenue
[source] in the state; however, every tax [increase] was
rejected by the legislature.
MR. VAN VACTOR added [taxes on the fishing industry] have two
tiers, a tax based upon shore-based processors and a tax for
floating processers, because general funds benefit communities
that host shore-based processing plants.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH observed other economic development
corporations across the state support a variety of industries
and asked whether any industry besides fishing is addressed by
BBEDC; for example, there are merits to diversity in economic
development from high-paying jobs in other industries such as
mining.
1:24:32 PM
MR. VAN VACTOR acknowledged BBEDC has an emphasis on fisheries;
he explained CDQ corporations were created under the [Magnuson-
Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act] and BBEDC
benefits from revenue streams in the Bering Sea, and is charged
with investing in boats, quota, and allocation. Further, BBEDC
is a nonprofit and spends its money back in its communities. He
pointed out every CDQ group differs, and the BBEDC board of
directors is supportive of sustainable and renewable economy and
seeks to develop the right jobs for the right place.
1:25:52 PM
NANCI MORRIS LYON, Owner/Operator, Bear Trail Lodge, said her 5-
star lodge is located in Bristol Bay and she began her career as
an independent fishing guide in the Bristol Bay area in 1985.
There are dozens of lodges in Bristol Bay, which has been a key
sport fishing destination for many years, and worldwide
recognition of this area has established sport fishing as an
important part of the local and statewide economy. Her lodge
utilizes local businesses for fuel, food, transportation, and
other support services, such as employees; in fact, the
recreation fishing, hunting, and tourism industries support
1,000 jobs and contribute over $60 million a year to the
economies of Bristol Bay and Alaska. Alaskans and visitors
treasure Bristol Bay as evidenced by opposition to Pebble Mine
and similar mines. Because of tourism, thousands of visitors
bring money into Alaska to witness Bristol Bay's unique beauty.
She pointed out the effects of mining on salmon would also
affect other species such as grayling, Dolly Varden, Arctic
char, and rainbow trout. Pebble's current plan includes
transportation corridors across the Talarik Creek and the
Gibraltar Creek; road corridors on or near these fisheries would
mean a large percentage of fisherman would not return. Thirty-
five roundtrip truckloads crossing creeks and rivers each day,
and other activities like blasting, would eliminate visitors'
interest: Pebble's current plan would change the landscape.
Ms. Morris Lyon is also the lead instructor at the Bristol Bay
Fly Fishing and Guide Academy, which for 10 years has sought to
involve local residents in guiding and sports fishing, enhance
guests' experience in the culture of Bristol Bay, and provide
jobs, and she gave an example. She pointed out Bristol Bay can
- and is - creating a positive future for residents without
jeopardizing existing industries, and strongly suggested the
mining industry should wait until new technology provides safe
extraction methods, without dangerous chemicals and damaged
land.
1:32:08 PM
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH asked what proportion of jobs in the
affected area are affiliated with fishing and tourism, and the
growth status of the fishing and tourism industries.
MS. MORRIS LYON said, "... the trend is definitely headed more
towards tourism, that's a national fact, and ... tourism is
headed to areas that are harder to reach because people crave
that ...."
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH related the statewide fishing industry has
a dismal record for employing Alaskans, and many large fishing
ships are out of Seattle. He inquired as to the average annual
salary for a guide, and the percentage of guides who are Alaska
residents.
MS. MORRIS LYON explained salaries for guides vary and may
include room and board, transportation, and gear; she estimated
a salary range between $30,000-$50,000 per year. Over 85
percent of her employees are Alaska residents, which is a
substantial increase from 30 years ago.
CO-CHAIR TARR asked the names of the affected creeks.
MS. MORRIS LYON said Talarik and Gibraltar creeks are recognized
throughout the industry.
1:35:35 PM
DAVID CHAMBERS PhD, President/Founder, Center for Science in
Public Participation (CSP2), informed the committee he is a
geophysicist with CSP2, which is a small nonprofit located in
Montana - with one employee in Alaska - and he was asked to
review information previously presented by the Pebble
Partnership related to the size of the mine. He directed
attention to a PowerPoint presentation entitled, "The Pebble
Project A Pathway to Permitting," dated September 2017, which
indicated the total resource for the project is 10.8 billion
tons; however, recent testimony by Pebble indicated a project of
1.1 billion tons, which is 10 percent less than the information
provided to the project's investors. Dr. Chambers pointed out
regulatory agencies in the U.S. and Canada ensure companies do
not offer fraudulent information to investors, therefore, he
reasoned that the higher number is what Pebble has available to
develop.
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON asked whether Pebble continued to present the
aforementioned information to investors after it indicated last
fall the mine would be smaller.
DR. CHAMBERS responded, "As far as I know, this is the most
recent information and ... they would have to issue a
retraction." He then directed attention to a PowerPoint
presentation entitled, "The Pebble Project," dated December
2012, which indicated the total resource for the project at that
time was 10.7 billion tons; he said this was a preliminary
assessment - also known as a prefeasibility study - which looks
at the economics of a mining operation to an accuracy of 20-30
percent. During the study, the project revealed three mine
plans (cases): investment case, 25-year mine life, 2.0 billion
tons of ore; reference case, 45-year mine life, 3.8 billion tons
of ore; resource case, 78-year mine life, 6.5 billion tons of
ore. He concluded the resource case was only one-half the size
of the actual identified resource (slide 61). An untitled slide
illustrated the relative sizes of the open pits in the three
case models. Slide 57 illustrated a simulation of open pits and
the underground deposit that would be accessed by a block cave.
He explained an underground block cave is a method that almost
always causes surface subsidence because of the removal of
material underneath the surface. The area affected by the
illustrated block mine is located north and east of the open
pits, which is the area of the upper watershed of Upper Talarik
Creek; during mine operations, the water must be pumped out of
the pits which lowers the ground [water] table, likely affecting
the water levels in the creeks, although water losses have not
been discussed at this point. Slide 7 illustrated the 2017 20-
year, 1.2 billion tons of ore, small mine scenario, which was
similar to the 2012 25-year, 2.0 billion tons of ore mine,
except for how the waste rock is handled. He compared Pebble's
2017 proposal, EPA's 0.25 billion ton scenario, and EPA's 6.5
billion tons scenario - as illustrated on slide 8 - and noted
EPA concluded its small mine scenario was too large and caused
too much environmental damage. Furthermore, the EPA large mine
scenario reflected only one-half of the resource. Slide 9
illustrated the layout for the mine pit and tailings dam;
however, due to the volume of the 2017 proposal, he opined an
additional tailings dam would be needed over the North Fork of
the Koktuli River.
1:46:52 PM
DR. CHAMBERS noted in 2012, the Pebble Partnership did not
provide layouts for the 6.5 billion tons and 10.7 billion tons
mines; however, mining all of the resource would require bigger
open pits, underground block caving, and handling an additional
9 billion tons of tailings and waste rock. Further, because the
proposal expects 2.6 tons of waste would be mined to extract 1.0
ton of ore - a stripping ratio of 2.6:1 - waste rock will be a
problem due to its volume and geochemistry, making a larger mine
footprint likely. Slide 10 illustrated other mineral prospects
that have been identified in the region, and he said the
potential for additional mining is very high because additional
mining becomes economic once the original mine infrastructure is
in place. Dr. Chambers concluded the size of the mine is
important to habitat because of the amount of waste, the amount
of contamination that takes years to manifest, and the mine's
location in a sensitive area.
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON asked who holds the Humble, D Block, and H
Block claims.
DR. CHAMBERS was unsure.
1:49:40 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER questioned Dr. Chambers' reference to
25-30 percent accuracy.
DR. CHAMBERS explained there are three types of feasibility
studies: a rough estimate at 50 percent accuracy; a
prefeasibility study at 30-40 percent accuracy; a full
feasibility study at 10-15 percent accuracy. Generally, a full
feasibility study is not done until a mine plan is "solid"
because of the expense.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER asked for the percentage of accuracy
reflected [in the documents Dr. Chambers presented].
DR. CHAMBERS said the prefeasibility study in 2012 would be at
30-40 percent accuracy.
1:51:12 PM
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON surmised the presentation indicated a lack of
confidence in Pebble's published intent to limit the mine to a
20-year phase, with a reference to expansion.
1:51:45 PM
DR. CHAMBERS advised companies will always propose an initial
phase of a mine based on solid economics; however, the initial
proposal might not address the full development of the resource
because the full extent of the resource is unknown. After the
mine infrastructure is established, "mines expanding after their
initial footprint is the rule rather than the exception," he
said.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH, speaking as an Alaskan mining engineer,
expressed his excitement at the opportunity for the development
of state-owned land that has previously been identified for
mineral potential. He estimated the potential value of the
silver, gold, molybdenum, and copper in the deposit at in excess
of $300 billion, which is a significant opportunity for work for
Alaskans and resources for the state. In the Western U.S., coal
mining and farming are co-located, and he inquired as to the
same in Alaska so that the fisheries and mineral development can
be pursued at the same time.
DR. CHAMBERS stated Pebble Mine - compared to other mines in
Alaska - has the largest risk to habitat because of its location
and its size; in addition, mines developing a copper porphyry
ore body have a very poor environmental performance record
related to water quality, ranging from sulfate [contamination]
to acid mine drainage. He recalled the Mount Polley mine
failure evaluation panel concluded there needs to be a balance
between economic, environmental, and social risks; however,
currently there is more emphasis placed on economics.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH named several examples from Alaska's rich
mining history and expressed confidence all can work for a
solution that allows for mining and opportunities for future
generations; a world class resource demands a successful
process.
1:57:03 PM
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON recalled in 2014 he researched the
aforementioned land use plan that designated the area in
question for minerals. He related the Tribes located near the
mouth of the bay appealed the [Bristol Bay Area Plan] and
subsequently the Division of Mining, Land and Water, Department
of Natural Resources (DNR), rewrote the management plan and
found the area to be mixed use; he asked, "... some of it was
for mineral exploration, but literally next door to it, in sort
of a checkerboard fashion almost, there were areas designated
for habitat. Am I right about that?"
DR. CHAMBERS indicated yes, but deferred to legal counsel. He
added in the 1970s the legislature said there was to be no oil
drilling in "that whole area."
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON referred to Dr. Chambers' previous testimony
[before the House Resources Standing Committee meeting on
2/27/17] related to certain closed [borehole] sites and their
condition after abandonment. Mark Hamilton, [Executive Vice
President for External Affairs, Pebble Partnership, before the
House Resources Standing Committee meeting on 2/16/18], stated
the sites were properly closed.
DR. CHAMBERS explained he and others looked at exploration well
reclamation work in August 2016 - one week after the state
conducted its inspection tour - and well closures were not
complete, according to requirements. This year the state re-
inspected the sites and reported compliance; however, he said he
wished to revisit the sites because, prior to 2008, drill
cuttings were routinely left on the surface and they have now
become acidic. He opined the state should require drill
cuttings are cleaned up and the practice de-sanctioned by the
state. He confirmed the state re-inspected over 300 sites by
aerial survey.
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON questioned whether DNR is providing
sufficient scrutiny.
DR. CHALMERS said, "I'm totally neutral at this point, but I
want to go out and see.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER surmised Dr. Chambers observed
reclamation in process.
DR. CHAMBERS said no, most of the holes he inspected were
supposed to have been reclaimed.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER restated his question.
DR. CHAMBERS advised his inspection revealed several boreholes
that were left open temporarily because they were still in use;
however, others he inspected were supposed to be completely
reclaimed, including some of which were leaking, and some sites
with exposed drill pipes, that posed a safety hazard. In
further response to Representative Rauscher, Dr. Chambers
confirmed the state had "signed off" on said sites.
2:02:51 PM
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH returned attention to the aforementioned
presentation by Mark Hamilton and read from an untitled slide as
follows [in part]:
The purpose of the presentation is to facilitate
discussions with stakeholders and does not represent
an economic analysis, technical mine study, detailed
engineering proposal or similar study. It should not
be used as the basis for any investment decision.
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH asked whether the presentation Pebble gave
to shareholders had a similar disclaimer.
DR. CHAMBERS said, "Not to my knowledge."
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH compared slides from the two presentations
and pointed out "mine pit," "waste rock," and "tailings storage
facility" had been redacted from the presentation to the
legislature. He asked Dr. Chambers for his opinion on the
reason for the changes to the presentation.
DR. CHAMBERS remarked:
Just follow the guide of the Pebble Partnership
itself. It said that it's presenting a small mine
that's environmentally friendly. ... It's not going to
be a small mine and it's not going to be
environmentally friendly.
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON pointed out the Pebble presentation included
a slide entitled, "Figure 2-1 Mine Site Hydrography," which
illustrated a tailings cell, a management pond, and open pits.
REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO asked, "... if [the mine plan] grows
smaller and smaller, do, do we assume risk assessment goes down
because ... of volumes."
DR. CHAMBERS opined the risk goes down in relation to the size;
however, EPA judged the risk from a mine smaller than the mine
proposed was unacceptable because of its impact on aquatic
habitat: streams and connected wetlands.
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON asked how the current EPA statement of
continuing concern differs from that issued by the previous EPA
administration.
2:07:34 PM
DR. CHAMBERS said the current statement allows the mine to go
through the environmental impact assessment process now, but
leaves EPA's options open.
2:08:10 PM
DANIEL SCHINDLER, PhD, Professor, School of Aquatic and Fishery
Sciences, University of Washington (UW), provided a PowerPoint
presentation entitled, "Bristol Bay fisheries and water quality:
what are the risks of mining development?" Dr. Schindler said
Alaska's fisheries and fisheries management are the envy of the
world. Slide 2 was a graph of sockeye salmon returns to Bristol
Bay ranging from 30-50 million fish per year. Last year, in the
Nushagak Commercial Salmon Fishery Management District, one
million sockeye salmon were caught in one day from a fishery
with no enhancement from hatcheries; this is a return from a
sustainable fishery based on Alaska's culture, its constitution,
ADF&G, and the intact habitat of the fishery. He advised in the
Lower 48 many fisheries, particularly salmon fisheries, are in
disarray due to a disregard of the importance of habitat to
fisheries. Bristol Bay salmon and habitat have been studied by
the Fisheries Research Institute, UW, since 1946 at the request
of Bristol Bay fisherman. Salmon spend about one-half of their
lives in the North Pacific Ocean and guided by their sense of
smell - following the chemistry in the water - return to the
rivers and streams of their birth to spawn (slide 3). He
stressed the presentation is not about mining or about mining in
Alaska, but about mining in Bristol Bay and its impact on
Bristol Bay's unique geology and biology; for example, the
watershed is complex because retreating glaciers left a layer of
gravel and the region produces lots of water, which together
create productive salmon habitat. Water flows freely across the
porous landscape, and he cautioned in these conditions it is
difficult to contain mining problems, and with climate change,
the region will become wetter (slide 4).
2:13:16 PM
DR. SCHINDLER continued to slide 5, noting scientists do not
know what part of the Nushagak watershed produced the Chinook
salmon caught in the Nushagak River. Slides 6 and 7 pictured a
salmon otolith - also known as the ear stone - that is used for
navigation and which accumulates rings as the fish ages. The
otolith incorporates the chemistry of the water as the fish pass
through; thus, scientists can match the chemistry found in an
otolith with that of the chemistry in a river or stream to trace
the source of the fish. Also shown were maps of the Nushagak
River and its Mulchatna and Koktuli tributaries, indicating the
location of returning fish in 2011 (slide 6) and 2014 (slide 7).
He compared the tributaries that had low numbers of returning
fish in 2011, with high numbers returning to the same
tributaries in 2014, and concluded fish habitat is variable
across space and through time. Therefore, the primary reason
Bristol Bay fisheries are sustainable is that fish have a
diverse habitat, and the question of risk is not only to the
individual tributary directly impacted, but also the risk to the
habitat on a broader scale.
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON questioned whether scientists believe "this
sort of switching back between the Nushagak and Mulchatna" has
occurred over eons.
DR. SCHINDLER said similar studies on sockeye salmon report the
same pattern for hundreds of years.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH recalled the [Novarupta-Katmai volcanic
eruption of 1912] dumped seven cubic miles of ash. He asked for
its impact to fisheries, and how resilient fisheries are to a
catastrophic event.
2:19:18 PM
DR. SCHINDLER related the Katmai eruption deposited ash across
the region, and the region's lakes have a one and one-half foot
layer of ash buried at the bottom. Depending on the location,
volcanic ash can damage or boost fish, because volcanic ash is
rich in phosphorus which can fertilize lakes, possibly boosting
salmon production. However, in the direct outfall of Katmai,
salmon streams were probably devastated. He acknowledged salmon
are resilient because of the complexity of Alaska's watershed as
demonstrated by the presentation; in fact, certain parts of a
watershed can be wiped out and recolonized. He restated the
complexity of the system ensures reliability. To provide
another example of the complexity of fish habitat, slides 8-10
pictured the characteristics of Bear Creek, which is not located
near the mine. The stream supports juvenile coho salmon and
spawning sockeye; because of ground water influence, the stream
is warm at its outflow from a beaver meadow, and cools by 8-10
degrees near the bottom of the stream where it flows into a
lake. Dr. Schindler explained how scientists determined the
tiny coho travel one mile each way, every day, to the cold water
where they feed on sockeye eggs, and then return to the warm
water in the same stream to digest. He concluded the habitat
provides a variety in temperature, but must also provide
connectivity between the various benefits of habitat (slide 11).
Bristol Bay and similar reliable fisheries have complexity and
variation, thus elements of risk must include both risk from
catastrophic events, and risk from the subtle and chronic
effects of mine infrastructure, such as roads and powerlines,
that add to risk by simplifying the habitat (slide 12). Slide
13 provided examples of how development affects fish - the
magnitude of which depends upon the location and operation of
the mines - as follows:
• sulfuric acid mine drainage
• copper is a known toxin to fish, and indirectly reduces
their ability to "smell their way home, [and] smell their
predators, et cetera"
• dust, groundwater, and erosion make containment of
contaminants challenging
• dewatering streams and wetlands that are critical fish
habitat
• roads and other infrastructure prevent erosion that
generates varied habitat
• impacts can be permanent
• risks can be unknown for decades
2:26:21 PM
DR. SCHINDLER acknowledged the EPA was criticized for issuing a
risk assessment without a specific mine plan; however, EPA
developed scenarios for a large and a small mine that included
all of the risks shown on slide 13. Slide 14 was a picture of
the 2015 Samarco mine tailings dam failure in Brazil, and slide
15 was a picture of the 2014 Mount Polley dam failure in British
Columbia, Canada. He pointed out the risks to Bristol Bay must
also include subtle and chronic issues "that may take a long
time to develop ... it's the death of a thousand cuts issue";
for example, a road - not associated with a mine - disconnected
wetlands from the main channel of the Chena River, preventing
the river from regenerating new habitat (slide 16). Slide 17
was a map of mining deposits in the Bristol Bay region, and he
remarked:
If you cover this area in mines, tailings ponds,
roads, pipelines, et cetera, you can guarantee you're
taking away options for fish, and this has to be part
of the assessment when we think about risks to Alaska
and its fisheries, relative to the rewards of pulling
minerals out of the ground.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER returned attention to the second bullet
point on slide 13, and observed the Copper River supports fish.
DR. SCHINDLER agreed there is copper naturally in the
environment and, following acid mine drainage that makes the
water more acidic, the copper becomes more soluble, which
increases the concentration of copper; in addition, there are
factors of the local chemistry and geology. What is known is
the rocks have a lot of copper and potential to produce sulfuric
acid, and have little buffering capacity.
2:31:01 PM
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH asked how UW's research on this issue is
funded.
DR. SCHINDLER said the program was established in 1946 with
funding from the fishing industry; in the last 20 years,
additional funding has been received from a variety of sources
such as peer-reviewed grants from the National Science
Foundation, private funding from the Gordon and Betty Moore
Foundation, and partnerships with the Bristol Bay Science and
Research Institute, the Bristol Bay Regional Seafood Development
Association, and the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Department
of the Interior. He added his personal work is unpaid.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH asked whether UW is engaged in hatchery
research.
DR. SCHINDLER said UW has a long history of hatchery research
and has withdrawn from hatchery work because "... hatcheries
cause more damage to wild stocks than they do good for fisheries
and fishing communities."
CO-CHAIR TARR returned attention to Dr. Schindler's statement
about the importance of the Bristol Bay fishery because it is an
entirely wild fishery and is not supplemented with hatchery
stock.
DR. SCHINDLER said the unique genetic diversity of Bristol Bay
salmon is intact, unlike salmon of the Columbia River, most
places in British Columbia, and any place south of Washington.
Hatcheries have essentially polluted the genetics of wild
stocks. Although fish return to their natal stream, some stray,
and research has proven genes from hatchery fish reduce the
fitness of wild populations; therefore, hatcheries are not the
solution to maintaining habitat and preserving fisheries in
Alaska.
2:35:07 PM
RICK HALFORD, Consultant, UTBB, provided a PowerPoint
presentation entitled, "Bristol Bay & The Pebble Mine." Mr.
Halford informed the committee he has worked with most of the
groups in Bristol Bay, has flown [as a commercial pilot] for
most of the news organizations involved in this issue, and is a
guide. He explained he is not an anti-mining person, and spoke
of his long experience as a former legislator working on
legislation in support of mining issues and with the support "of
the Alaska miners." However, after years of reviewing the
Pebble Mine, he advised although most [mines] do work, the
[Pebble Mine] does not work due to its critical location.
Further, the type and size of the ore body are "beyond
imagination" as presented by representatives of the project. He
suggested the committee review Attachment D [to the Pebble
Project application to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers,
provided in the committee packet], because it is the simplest
description of the proposal, without disclaimers. Mr. Halford
said [Pebble] presentations are based on questions that have
never been answered, and on previous mine plans; for example,
some of the proposals were first presented and rejected in 1991
by previous mine operators. He said [opposition to the mine] is
not just environmental and local, but "leaders of the industry
worldwide," including Cameco, Rio Tinto, Mitsubishi Materials,
and Anglo American, have rejected the Pebble Mine based on
economics because of the low-grade ore body. He pointed out
page 14, Attachment D, describes a $10.8 billion prospect - as
does the presentation to shareholders - and not the 1/10th
proposal Pebble is marketing. Slide 2 was a picture of Frying
Pan Lake; slide 3 illustrated the impact on the Bristol Bay
fishery by volume, and he compared gravity and the connectivity
of water to that of blood in the human circulatory system. Mr.
Halford said, "It's not just the numbers game ... it's the
reality of the way the water system works, the way the human
body works, water is the, the blood of the ecosystem." Slide 4
illustrated the actual size of the deposit is 10.8 billion tons,
reaching from 1,000 feet above sea level to about 4,400 feet
below sea level. Mr. Halford advised at the bottom and the east
of the deposit, identified as "open," are some of the highest
concentrations; thus, the minimum potential proposed to
shareholders is almost 11 billion tons. Slide 5 illustrated the
size of recoverable ore compared to other mines; he added the
Donlin [gold mine] deposit is also astronomically smaller than
that of Pebble, and said, "It's important to understand the, the
difference in what they're proposing and what they really mean."
Mr. Halford then reviewed some of the activities of the mine
plan and emphasized, "That's a lot of activity, that's not a
small mine." Continuing the presentation, he directed attention
to page 58, Attachment D [4.1.1. Water Balance Model], which
refers to the water balance between the edge of Upper Talarik
Creek and a 1,750-foot-deep hole, in an area with 1,300 uncased
and unplugged [boreholes]. He cautioned as the hole is pumped
out, the upper end of Upper Talarik Creek will disappear due to
water balance.
2:43:35 PM
MR. HALFORD urged the committee to question state agencies about
water balance, because this is a state land issue, except for a
dredge and fill permit, which is one federal issue. Also from
page 58 of Attachment D, he read a disclaimer as follows:
The ultimate project design will incorporate detailed
analysis of water collection and management ...
MR. HALFORD stressed the project is nowhere near its ultimate
design and questions are unanswered, such as the effects of
digging a hole 1,000 feet down below sea level. On page 63 of
Attachment D, he read as follows:
The accuracy of water balance models is limited by
many factors including the stochastic nature of the
inputs and the potential affects of climate change.
In recognition of these limitations, an adaptive water
management strategy is planned.
MR. HALFORD presented slides 6-7, which were pictures of mine
infrastructure, and slide 8, which was a picture of the mine
site as it is now. He read from page 70, Attachment D as
follows [in part]:
Once mining the open pit stops, dewatering will stop,
and the open pit will begin to flood. The pit will
continue to fill until the pit lake is formed.
Surface runoff from the walls may result in metal
leaching. Water quality is expected to be acidic with
elevated metals due to overall oxidation of the open
pit walls. Pit lake water quality will be monitored,
and appropriate actions will be taken to manage
wildlife activity on the lake. Once the level of the
pit lake has risen to about 890 feet, water treatment
will commence.
MR. HALDORD presented slide 9 which was a picture of a pit lake,
and said water treatment would prevent water from flowing over
the top of the pit; he warned the pit lake would be the same as
the [Berkley Pit and pit lake in Montana], with fencing
necessary to keep out wildlife, and that anything that lands on
the pit lake dies. Continuing on page 70, he read as follows:
The reclamation and closure bond package will include
provisions for periodic replacement of water treatment
facilities and ongoing operating and monitoring costs
over the long-term, post-closure period.
MR. HALFORD remarked:
This reads like perpetual remediation, and do we have
a right to pass that on to the next generation of
Alaskans, just to monetize something in conflict with
the renewable resources that will otherwise go on
forever?
2:47:47 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER returned attention to slide 8 and
pointed out the picture is of the area in which machinery was
brought in to drill 1,300 holes, which are now closed.
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON disagreed that all of the 1,300 boreholes
were in the area shown on slide 8.
MR. HALFORD agreed with Representative Rauscher that machinery
was needed to drill the holes in that area. He presented an
exhibit from [a legal dispute] in 2008-2009 [document not
provided] and said:
... doing it takes [putting] shoring out there, [and
setting] up a system, and it was all done by
helicopter. This one is a bad example, but there were
a lot of good examples, so you can't say that 1,300
holes were, and they weren't all deep holes either.
Some of them were geophysical to try and tie into
bedrock and other things, but our objection to this
one was that it was in basically in wetlands, that's a
salmon stream behind us. And as it - the rig - kind
of beat itself down into its own shoring, the drilling
mud spread everywhere, and it was not a good example,
from their perspective.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH asked for an estimate of employment
[numbers] proposed by the project.
MR. HALFORD advised employment information was included in the
presentation [at the House Resources Standing Committee meeting
on 2/16/18].
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH estimated the value of the deposit to be
$300 billion and questioned whether Mr. Halford estimated the
current value of the project to be $30 billion.
MR. HALFORD said the value is about 10 percent of the total
amount.
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH asked Mr. Halford whether he was speaking
as a volunteer or represented an employer.
MR. HALFORD said he has a current contract for advice to UTBB
and has also worked for a number of other organizations. He
then referred to a statement by Mark Hamilton [at the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting on 2/16/18] that Pebble has
requested "normal standards," and said Pebble has requested
formal approval under the [Fixing America's Surface
Transportation (FAST-41) Act] program, that would grant
expedited federal review of their permit application. He
offered to provide copies of said request.
2:52:06 PM
TOM TILDEN, First Chief, Curyung Tribal Council, informed the
committee he was speaking as a board member of the village
corporation of Choggiung Ltd., which owns land at the lower part
of the Nushagak River. He said he is a fisherman and his father
came to Alaska in the winter of 1932 prospecting for gold. Mr.
Tilden related his father's story of not finding much gold in
the Mulchatna River so instead he caught animals and sold their
fur in the spring. Mr. Tilden's father found "gold," not in
mineral form, but in the furs and salmon he caught and sold.
Mr. Tilden said he has made his living as a subsistence and
commercial fisherman since 1965, fishing many methods for
salmon, herring, and halibut. Before the commercial season, he
puts fish away for the winter. He grew up with his family on
the Nushagak River in the village of Portage Creek, living a
subsistence lifestyle, and depending upon natural resources to
survive. He described in detail his family's use of fish,
animals, berries from the land, and birds from the air, all of
which depend on clean water. Further, he pointed out the water
system provides transportation in winter and summer, and all
rivers in Alaska need protection; in fact, according to the
Alaska State Constitution, the resources are for all, and a
driving force behind statehood was the concept that Alaska would
manage and protect its own resources.
2:57:25 PM
MR. TILDEN related a two-year study found village residents seek
the preservation of natural resources and development that does
not harm natural resources. He advised: Pebble Mine has
promised jobs, but would not put its promise in writing; Pebble
said it would be a good steward of the environment, but took
water for two years without a permit; Pebble initially did not
cap the wells as required by the state. Due to exploration, a
negative impact to the community of Newhalen is that low-flying
aircraft have caused the moose and caribou to move due to noise
pollution. Mr. Tilden visited the Mount Polley [site of a
tailings dam failure], Gibraltar, and Highland mines in Canada
and said the Gibraltar and Highland mines cannot compare to
Pebble because they import water, but Pebble has too much water.
In addition, Gibraltar and Highland mines are located in a
highland area and have different geology and hydrology, whereas
Pebble is in a wetlands area.
3:02:39 PM
MR. TILDEN questioned why Rio Tinto and Anglo would withdraw
from the Pebble project after making large investments, and
cautioned shareholders may pressure the Pebble Mine to amend its
plan and use cyanide, because it is the most efficient and cost-
effective way to extract gold. Mr. Tilden urged all Alaskans to
look closely at the project plan and to consider the value of an
abundance of water to the future of the state. In fact, water,
natural beauty, and tourism are Alaska's future resource, and he
agreed with [former First Lady Bella Hammond] when, in 2009, she
said it is time to decide what we really value.
3:07:19 PM
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:07 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| Kerrisdale Capital Releases Negative Report on Northern Dynasty Minerals Ltd.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| Kerrisdale Summary Negative Report.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| Pebble Factsheet-Trout Unlmtd.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| Witness List, Pebble Opponents .docx |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| 1 Chambers Pebble presentation.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| 2 Schindler Pebble Presentation.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| 3 Halford Pebble Presentation.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| Trout Unlimited Packet.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| Project Description_USACE Applic..pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| Partnership req for FAST federal permitting.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |
|
| 2018-03-09 -- BB Scoping ltr to Corps.pdf |
HRES 2/19/2018 1:00:00 PM |