Legislature(2003 - 2004)
05/09/2004 04:40 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
May 9, 2004
4:40 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Nancy Dahlstrom, Co-Chair
Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair
Representative Cheryll Heinze, Vice Chair
Representative Carl Gatto
Representative Bob Lynn
Representative Kelly Wolf
Representative Beth Kerttula
Representative David Guttenberg
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Nick Stepovich
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Senator Ralph Seekins (via teleconference)
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 297(RES)
"An Act relating to bear predation management and the donation
and sale of bear hides and skulls."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 297
SHORT TITLE: BEAR HUNTING/DISPOSAL OF HIDE/SKULL
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) SEEKINS
02/06/04 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/06/04 (S) RES, FIN
03/17/04 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
03/17/04 (S) Heard & Held
03/17/04 (S) MINUTE(RES)
04/02/04 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/02/04 (S) Heard & Held
04/02/04 (S) MINUTE(RES)
04/07/04 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/07/04 (S) -- Rescheduled to 4 pm 04/07/04 --
04/14/04 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/14/04 (S) Heard & Held
04/14/04 (S) MINUTE(RES)
04/16/04 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/16/04 (S) Moved CSSB 297(RES) Out of Committee
04/16/04 (S) MINUTE(RES)
04/19/04 (S) RES RPT CS FORTHCOMING 5DP
04/19/04 (S) DP: OGAN, DYSON, WAGONER,
04/19/04 (S) STEVENS B, SEEKINS
04/20/04 (S) RES CS RECEIVED NEW TITLE
04/21/04 (S) FIN REFERRAL WAIVED REFERRED TO RULES
04/29/04 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
04/29/04 (S) VERSION: CSSB 297(RES)
05/01/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
05/01/04 (H) STA, RES
05/04/04 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
05/04/04 (H) Moved Out of Committee
05/04/04 (H) MINUTE(STA)
05/05/04 (H) STA RPT 3NR 2AM
05/05/04 (H) NR: GRUENBERG, HOLM, LYNN;
05/05/04 (H) AM: SEATON, WEYHRAUCH
05/09/04 (H) RES AT 4:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
BRIAN HOVE, Staff
to Senator Ralph Seekins
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SB 297 on behalf of the sponsor,
Senator Seekins.
PAUL JOHNSON (ph)
(Address not provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of SB 297, provided
comments and suggested the bill should be amended.
ROB HOLT
Talkeetna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of SB 297, provided
comments and expressed opposition to "the measures of this
bill."
WILLIAM FRITZGERALD, Owner
Denali Guides & Outfitters
Talkeetna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to SB 297.
JENNIFER YUHAS, Executive Director
Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC)
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 297.
WAYNE REGELIN, Deputy Commissioner
Office of the Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of SB 297, provided
comments and responded to questions.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 04-29, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIR BEVERLY MASEK called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 4:40 p.m. Representatives Masek,
Dahlstrom, Gatto, Heinze, Wolf, Guttenberg, and Kerttula were
present at the call to order. Representative Lynn arrived as
the meeting was in progress.
SB 297 - BEAR HUNTING/DISPOSAL OF HIDE/SKULL
Number 0046
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the only order of business would
be CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 297(RES), "An Act relating to bear
predation management and the donation and sale of bear hides and
skulls."
Number 0120
BRIAN HOVE, Staff to Senator Ralph Seekins, Alaska State
Legislature, sponsor, presented SB 297 on behalf of Senator
Seekins. He offered his belief that SB 297 is in essence a
predator control program for bears only in those areas where
bears are identified as being a problem. He paraphrased from
the sponsor statement, which read [original punctuation
provided]:
There is no shortage of black or grizzly/brown bears
in Alaska. Here, they are neither threatened nor
endangered. In some Game Management Units the bear
populations are many multiples of the established
population objectives. The Alaska Department of Fish
and Game estimates statewide black bear populations as
high as 200,000 and the grizzly/brown bear population
as high as 35,000.
In certain Game Management Units, estimates range from
70-90% of all the moose calves are dead before they
reach two months of age due, in large part, to bear
predation. As a result, fall recruitment is virtually
zero and the reproductive base populations are
crashing. The well publicized 2003 McGrath bear
relocation experiment clearly demonstrated that a
reduction in bear populations has a direct positive
effect on increasing calf survivability and thus the
long-term health of the resource. But relocation
efforts do not solve the underlying problem.
Senate Bill 297 addresses Alaska's bear over-
population problem in those places - called Intensive
Management Areas - where the Board of Game has: (1)
first determined that consumptive use of the big game
population is a preferred use; (2) depletion of the
big game population has occurred and may result in a
significant reduction in the allowable human harvest
of the population; and (3) enhancement of abundance or
productivity of the big game prey population is
feasibly achievable utilizing recognized and prudent
active management techniques.
It is important to understand that the provisions in
SB 297 only come into play if the Board of Game,
advised by the Department of Fish and Game biologists,
finds that bears are a cause of the depletion or
reduction of big game productivity.
Once the above findings have been made, SB 297 allows
for remediation efforts through the issuance of bear
predation management permits. These special-purpose
permits relax certain restrictions relative to the
taking of bears in those areas where bear predation is
identified as a problem. The Bill also provides
guidance with respect to bear sealing as well as
disposition of hides and skulls taken under this Act.
A strong point of emphasis is that this program in all
reality is, and should be viewed as, a predator
control program. The provisions of the Act do not
apply to Game Management Units in which intensive
management is not necessary. Furthermore, proactive
measures end as soon as the bear populations are once
again within the population objectives that have been
set by the Board of Game.
Number 0501
PAUL JOHNSON (ph) said that he has "been around" game management
for many, many years. He relayed that Senator Seekins has
acknowledged in a prior hearing that he is "taking a gamble" on
"our guide-required law" and on a court case, likening it to a
50-50 coin toss. Mr. Johnson mentioned that an attorney he's
heard from has indicated that should the bill engender
litigation, the state would lose. He also mentioned that the
Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G) could not predict how
many more bears would be taken should the bill pass. He
expressed concern that should Alaska lose its "guide-required"
law, it would affect sheep and goat hunting and other aspects of
the [hunting] industry. He opined that it would not be right or
worth it to take a 50-50 gamble on this issue. If the goal is
predator control, then just do predator control, he remarked,
"but don't take it away from the guides." He concluded by
offering his belief that the bill needs to be amended by taking
the nonresident and nonresident alien sections out.
Number 0762
ROB HOLT mentioned that he is Vice President of the Alaska
Professional Hunters Association, Inc. (APHA), and that he is
speaking on behalf of himself and other concerned guides from
the Talkeetna area. He said that he is opposed to "the measures
of this bill," and relayed that he has submitted written
comments. He expressed agreement with Mr. Johnson's comments,
adding:
In areas where people rely on moose hunting and other
animals that don't have a guide-required law,
essentially the guiding business has gotten to the
point where it's struggling to survive, at best. And
in some of these areas where they've implemented
intensive management, such as "16 and 13", the only
resource that those guys have left is brown bears and
black bears. And if you remove [the] guide-required
law in any form in those areas, essentially those guys
will be put out of business by the wholesale market
that will ... spring out of this. ...
The basis of my concern is the fact that this kind of
an action, when you're looking at trying to control
the numbers of these bears in this manner, devalues
that wildlife on a scale that is recognized by people
around the world. In other countries where they have
valuable wildlife that they have to reduce in numbers,
they do it professionally - by culling - and they do
it in very specific areas to very specific numbers;
they do not rely on a resident populace that's
interested in hunting to bring about the reduction of
those numbers.
Number 0921
And one of the reasons they do that is the political
and scientific sensibility in what they're doing, and
what the end result is, [is] they maintain the value
associated to those animals. And I think that that's
primary, here. I think that the state of Alaska does
not want to put itself in a position where we're seen
as devaluing our brown bears anywhere. A brown bear
hunt in an area where intensive management is
necessary should always be bringing top value and top
dollar into the state, rather than reduced to the
point where it's essentially a varmint hunt - I think
that's going in leaps and bounds heading in the wrong
direction.
MR. HOLT added:
And then the other thing, just in consideration of
when we get into these areas where we're deciding that
we need to reduce these brown bear numbers, I don't
believe that the state has stepped up to the plate in
[regard] to employing the most accurate technology
available to have the right numbers to use. And I
think that any time the state's going to make those
kind of tests, it's absolutely essential that they do
that, and we haven't gotten to that point with what
the [ADF&G] uses for census and how they put their
numbers together. ... I thank you very, very much for
the opportunity to comment on this important issue.
CO-CHAIR MASEK acknowledged receipt of written testimony from
Mr. Holt's wife.
Number 1133
WILLIAM FRITZGERALD, Owner, Denali Guides & Outfitters,
mentioning that he is a registered guide, said he is opposed to
SB 297. He outlined the number of brown bear hunts his company
undertakes in a year, the location they occur, and the amount of
time he spends flying over that area in search of bear and other
big game animals. He went on to say:
I'm extremely aware of the populations of the animals,
and I'm entrusted to self-manage, both as an ethical
hunter and as [an] ethical business owner. What I've
seen over the past few years is a definite increase in
wolf populations, but under no circumstances can ...
the same be said of the brown/grizzly bear population.
As a matter of fact, I believe that [with regard to]
the [ADF&G], the only reliable source of information
... they have on bear populations is the harvest of
bears; I do not believe that they are actively in the
field counting bears.
And I think this is paramount in any type of a bill
like this - as a predator control. Actually, if this
bill were to come to fruition, the results could be
devastating to my business. In essence, the Alaska
State Legislature would be unleashing an unprecedented
number guides, hunting in competition for the
resource, in the name of a management tool. ...
Recently I drove down the highway and [saw] this
billboard that tells how many moose have been killed
by automobiles, and I think that [Senator] Seekins is
genuinely concerned about the huntable populations of
moose in Game Management Unit 13, and he should be
working tirelessly to reduce the number of moose
killed by automobiles and trucks in the Matanuska-
Susitna valley.
MR. FRITZGERALD went on to say:
That number of moose killed by automobiles - 375 over
the past seven months - does not include the number
killed by railroad activities, and that's also
traditionally a significant number. Also, right now
in Game Management Unit 13, we have the longest season
and the most liberal hunting parameters for
brown/grizzly bear hunting in North America. I'd like
to finish by saying that I believe that those
regulations that are in place for hunting bears in
Game Management Unit 13 are enough to prevent
overpopulation of bears, [and] will end predation on
the moose. And again I just want to go on record as
saying that I'm absolutely opposed to Senate Bill 297,
and I'd like to thank you for allowing me this
opportunity to speak and comment on this bill.
Number 1417
JENNIFER YUHAS, Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council
(AOC), said simply that she is speaking on behalf of the board
of directors of the AOC - "an umbrella organization representing
over 54 member clubs and over 12,000 individual members
including several former wildlife management professionals" -
and that the AOC supports SB 297 and considers it a "useful
wildlife management tool for the [ADF&G] in the areas designated
for intensive management." She relayed that the AOC urges the
committee to vote to pass the bill.
CO-CHAIR MASEK, after determining that no one else wished to
testify, suggested that the committee direct questions to the
sponsor's staff and the ADF&G's representative.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO, referring to the sponsor's statement which
asserted that 70 percent of moose calves are dead by the age of
two months, asked what portion of that death rate can be
attributed to bear predation, rather than weather conditions,
wolf predation, disease, poaching, and lack of a food supply.
MR. HOVE replied, "We do know that bears are a big part of that
number."
Number 1539
WAYNE REGELIN, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner,
Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G), relayed that about 70
percent of moose calves are killed in the first two months of
life, almost all by bears, though the type of bear and the exact
number of deaths varies in the different game management units.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO questioned, "Would you say that the control
of wolves is almost irrelevant compared to the control of
bears?"
MR. REGELIN replied, "Absolutely not." He added that calf
mortality in the first two months of life, when the calves are
vulnerable, is very high, and that wolves tend to take older
calves in the winter. He relayed that at least 30 percent of a
"calf crop" has to survive a year in order to have a healthy
moose population, and that goal is hard to achieve if 70 percent
of calves are lost "right off the bat." Therefore, in some
places, there must be a reduction in both wolves and bears in
order to have increased moose populations.
MR. HOVE, in response to a question, offered his belief that
statewide, Alaska's bear population is healthy.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF offered his understanding, however, that the
brown bear population on the Kenai Peninsula is in trouble to
the extent that residents can't have a brown bear hunt. He
remarked on this apparent discrepancy.
MR. REGELIN said:
On a statewide basis, we have very healthy black bear
populations - I can't think of anywhere we don't. The
same is true in most places for brown bears or grizzly
bears also. The one exception is the Kenai Peninsula,
where there's probably fewer than 300 grizzly bears
left, and it's just an encroachment of population and
people into an area. So that's the one place that we
manage ...; essentially we haven't had a hunt there
because the numbers of bears killed in defense of life
and property exceed the sustainable harvest.
Number 1730
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked whether the same is true of "the
valley."
MR. HOVE referred to a map, pointed out an area to members where
there are sustainable-harvest issues with regard to bears, and
surmised that the system proposed by SB 297 won't apply to that
area.
MR. REGELIN offered his belief that the way the bill is
currently structured, it would allow bear control programs
similar to those for wolf; therefore, it would be up to the
Board of Game to determine the methods and means that could be
used and the areas they could be used in. Currently, the only
area for which the ADF&G feels it has adequate data to do such a
program is in Game Management Unit 13, which is the "Nelchina
basin." Remarking that the whole issue of bear control is a
policy call for the legislature to make, he acknowledged that it
would create a risk for the guiding industry due to the
[possibility] that the change will engender litigation. The
change proposed by the bill will provide an opportunity for the
ADF&G to have more hunters go into the field in selected
locations to target bear populations that need to be reduced for
the purpose of reducing predation. He characterized the policy
call that the legislature has to make on this issue as a
difficult one.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked whether the bill refers specifically
to Game Management Unit 13.
MR. REGELIN said that the bill leaves the decision of whether to
institute a bear control program in a particular area completely
up to the Board of Game. He reiterated that the only area of
the state for which the ADF&G has enough information to even
consider instituting such a program is in Game Management Unit
13, and surmised that it probably wouldn't be instituted
anywhere else in the state and in particular not in the three
main trophy areas - the Alaska Peninsula, Kodiak, Admiralty
Island.
Number 1918
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG referred to the testimony
characterizing the proposed program as "a varmint hunt," and
asked Mr. Regelin to comment.
MR. REGELIN said that the way the bill is structured, it does
not propose a method of hunting; rather, it proposes instituting
a predator control program in which a special permit would be
required, and the Board of Game would be able to modify the
standard methods and means for hunting. The Board of Game, in
anticipation of the change proposed via SB 297, has discussed a
variety of things that might be tried to increase the bear
harvest, but one of things it has decided to exclude is allowing
bears to be taken out of airplanes and helicopters.
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG asked how much field research has been
done.
MR. REGELIN said that although bears are a difficult species to
study, the ADF&G has had continuous, long-term research programs
in Game Management Unit 13 since about 1981, and feels that it
has reasonably good estimates of the populations. He mentioned
that because of the difficulty in studying bears, the method the
ADF&G employs is to get population estimates in small portions
of the area and then expand those numbers to the larger area.
MR. REGELIN, in response to a question, said that several years
ago the Board of Game established a population goal of 300-350
[grizzly] bears for Game Management Unit 13, and the ADF&G
estimates that currently there are approximately 1,500 grizzly
bears in that area.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA said she didn't see how SB 297 wouldn't
be a "hunting bill," particularly since it would allow
nonresidents to get a permit and go out and hunt. She asked
whether anything similar is being done with other species.
MR. REGELIN said no, and characterized the bill as an innovative
way of looking at the issue of predator control. He remarked
that although in the eyes of the public the legislation might be
seen as a hunting bill, from a legal standpoint it would be
considered a predator control program, similar to the wolf
control program. Also, a big game brown bear tag wouldn't be
required; instead, a fee would be paid if a bear is harvested.
MR. HOVE said that there are few realistic alternatives to
what's being proposed by SB 297.
Number 2216
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA offered her belief that the concept
proposed by SB 297 for bear control is not similar enough to
what's done for wolf control to warrant comparing the two,
particularly given that people from out of state can come up and
get a permit for bears. She remarked that the bill appears to
threaten the guide system in Alaska, and asked whether the
attorney general has provided an opinion on the proposed change
with regard to the current guide system.
MR. REGELIN said that Kevin Saxby from the Department of Law
(DOL) has written a letter wherein he says it will be very
difficult to defend a court case that challenges "the guide
requirement bill" if SB 297 is passed. He offered his belief
that passage of SB 297 will allow people [from out of state] to
come up and hunt with their friends and acquaintances without a
guide.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Regelin to provide a copy of
that letter to committee members.
MR. REGELIN acknowledged that passage of SB 297 will increase
the risk of losing Alaska's guide-requirement law.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked how many guides are currently
registered for bear.
MR. FRITZGERALD offered his belief that there are currently 25
registered guides actively operating hunting camps in Game
Management Unit 13.
MR. JOHNSON added that it is important to recognize that more
than just the guides in that area that will be affected if the
"guide" law is [overturned]; such will affect guides statewide,
and will affect sheep and goat hunting as well as bear hunting.
MR. FRITZGERALD offered his belief that the aforementioned 25
guides are guiding 10-15 grizzly bear hunts per year, and
characterized those numbers as already putting a significant
amount of pressure on the resource. He offered his belief that
ADF&G's is simply guessing that there are 1,500 bears in the
area, and that the ADF&G gets its numbers from bears that have
been taken rather than from aerial surveys. He concluded by
saying that his aerial surveys of Game Management Unit 13 lead
him to believe that the bear population in that area is not
increasing.
Number 2497
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG asked how adoption of SB 297 would put
guiding at risk.
MR. REGELIN explained that when the state originally established
the requirements to have a guide, it was just for grizzly bears,
brown bears, and sheep, and it was intended to ensure the safety
of the hunter. So to then say, via adoption of SB 297, that
some hunters won't be required to have a guide, puts the current
law in jeopardy. He suggested, too, that changing the
requirements in some areas but not in others could violate the
commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution.
REPRESENTATIVE HEINZE asked what's required to become a big game
[guide].
MR. REGELIN said that one must pass a test after being an
assistant guide for several years, and that the registered guide
permits are issued by the Department of Commerce, Community, &
Economic Development (DCCED). He offered his belief that there
are probably several hundred guides, for all different species,
and that it is probably a $200 million industry. In response to
a question, he relayed that the cost of a grizzly bear hunt
varies by area, but in Southeast Alaska, the Alaska Peninsula,
and Kodiak the cost ranges between $12,000 and $15,000; in
contrast, the cost in Game Management Unit 13 ranges between
[$5,000 and $8,000].
REPRESENTATIVE HEINZE surmised that since moose calve out in the
open, the odds are against calves surviving at all.
MR. REGELIN remarked that in certain areas of Alaska, both brown
bear and black bear predation is a significant factor in moose
calf mortality during the first two months of life. In most
areas, he added, wolves take less than 10 percent of the calves
that die within the first two months of life; wolves, however,
do take a significant number of yearling moose at other times of
the year. Thus, in order to effectively manage moose
populations, the ADF&G must reduce both bear and wolf predation
in certain areas. In response to a comment, he remarked that
the goal of wildlife management is to try to stabilize
populations of moose so that people can have a reliable number
to harvest. Without human intervention, there will be extremely
low densities of moose populations, especially in Interior
Alaska.
Number 2824
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG asked how many moose are killed on the
road system every year.
MR. REGELIN said that number varies greatly from year to year.
This year, for example, he'd heard that from Willow down through
Palmer, there were approximately 360 moose were killed, but that
number can go as high as 500. With regard to how many moose
have been killed on the railroad, he said that during one year
in the early '80s, approximately 300 moose were killed, though
that number has significantly decreased in recent years.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF relayed that on the Kenai Peninsula a few
years back, almost 1,000 moose were killed on the road system.
With regard to the bill, he remarked that although it looks like
[a predator control] bill, using nonresidents for that task
while potentially hurting a $200 million industry defies good
common sense. He indicated that he would be voting "no" on the
bill.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 2920
The House Resources Standing Committee was recessed at 5:30 p.m.
to a call of the chair. [The meeting was never reconvened.]
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