Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/10/2000 01:45 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
April 10, 2000
1:45 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair
Representative John Cowdery, Vice Chair
Representative John Harris
Representative Carl Morgan
Representative Ramona Barnes
Representative Jim Whitaker
Representative Mary Kapsner
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chair
Representative Reggie Joule
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 311
"An Act eliminating a requirement that a social security number
be provided by an applicant for a hunting or sport fishing
license or tag."
- MOVED HB 311 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 311
SHORT TITLE: NO SOC SEC. # REQ'D ON HUNT/FISH LICENSE
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
1/24/00 1986 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
1/24/00 1986 (H) RES, JUD
1/26/00 2019 (H) COSPONSOR(S): THERRIAULT
4/10/00 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL, JR.
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 416
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as the sponsor of HB 311.
REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 421
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 311.
TOM CARPENTER, Owner
Whiskey Ridge Trading Company
P.O. Box 1663
Cordova, Alaska 99574
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 311.
MARK CHRYSON
2140 Wolverine Circle
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 311.
ERIC WEATHERS
Cordova, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 311.
JAMES GARHART
2480 Green Forest Drive
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 311.
DENNY KAY WEATHERS
Cordova, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 311.
BARBARA MIKLOS, Director
Child Support Enforcement Division
Department of Revenue
550 West Seventh Avenue, Suite 310
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 311.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 00-32, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIR MASEK called the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting to order at 1:45 p.m. Members present at the call to
order were Representatives Masek, Morgan, Barnes, Whitaker and
Kapsner. Representatives Cowdery and Harris arrived as the
meeting was in progress.
HB 311 - NO SOC SEC. # REQ'D ON HUNT/FISH LICENSE
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the first order of business was
HOUSE BILL NO. 311, "An Act eliminating a requirement that a
social security number be provided by an applicant for a hunting
or sport fishing license or tag."
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL, JR., Alaska State Legislature,
sponsor of HB 311, stated that HB 311 is a bill asking for the
elimination of AS 16.05.330(e), which requires that the social
security number (SSN) be provided on hunting and fishing
licenses. He indicated that it was brought to his attention by
several constituents who found it very objectionable, when they
went to get their hunting and fishing license, to have to supply
their social security numbers. The SSN was never intended to be
used as a means of identification, he said. It was meant to be
used for tracking benefits for those who were paying into the
social security system. The Personal Responsibility and Work
Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 was to help track down
"dead-beat dads." A variety of other licenses require SSNs,
which he also objects to, but this is where they wanted to start
[the legislation]. He believes that HB 311 will deprive Alaska
of the 77 million in federal funding that is given to the state
by the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity
Reconciliation Act.
Number 0410
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS requested clarification that the
elimination of the social security [number requirement] would not
affect any federal funds that the state receives.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL responded:
I asked that question as well, and the answer is maybe
- I don't know. But because it is required on so many
other licenses and we are complying with that, I'd say
no. I don't have a definitive answer on that, but, in
my view, what is the money worth if we have to give so
much private and personal information out? I think the
whole Act, itself, is wrong. This is just the
beginning place to start the discussion. And certainly
on licenses this is not a requirement in our fish and
game area."
Number 0506
CO-CHAIR MASEK referred to the fiscal note in the packet where it
states, "The federal funding lost will be over $14 million a year
for child support and $63 million a year for public assistance."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES recalled there being a federal law relating
to SSNs that precludes people from having to use them.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL indicated that he did not know the answer.
He said, with regard to Representative Masek's comment on the
fiscal note, that he is not sure it is a good legal [point]
because the U.S. Code does not mention the licenses specifically
but just says "recreational." He pointed out that although it
could be construed as "recreational," he thinks that they have a
good case to say that under particular circumstances they are not
going to require it. He still believes that it is within their
latitude to do that and that the fiscal note is questionable.
Number 0730
REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING, Alaska State Legislature, stated that
he supports HB 311. Referring to Representative Barnes'
question, and said when the Social Security Act was passed in
1913, there was concern that the number would be used for
identification purposes; therefore - according to a reliable
source - there was a major proviso in the federal legislation
that said the SSN was not for identification purposes.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING said he strongly objects to the
requirement of a SSN as a condition for issuing a driver's
license. He noted that several of his constituents have
expressed concern with it, as well, because they believe that it
is a violation of their constitutional right to privacy. He
asked that the committee entertain an amendment that would take
away the mandated requirement of a SSN being issued to obtain a
driver's license. He further stated that when social security
cards were issued, the cards clearly noted that they were not to
be used for identification purposes. The issue has become so
substantial that there is a court case pending in the Palmer
District Court, he noted.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES indicated she had received a note from her
staff saying that federal law used to prohibit use of SSNs for
identification, but Congress has since changed the law to allow
it.
Number 1129
TOM CARPENTER, Owner, Whiskey Ridge Trading Company, testified
via teleconference from Cordova. He indicated that he is also a
commercial fisherman and a vendor of Alaska Department of Fish &
Game (ADF&G) licenses and tags. The problem he sees with the SSN
being required is as follows: Each year, half of the residents
and nonresidents are frustrated and angry that they are required
to divulge their SSNs to purchase a hunting or fishing license.
It causes more stress and confusion for him, because if he does
not make them put their SSNs down, then the vendor is held
liable. Probably 10 percent of those people refuse to buy a
license and are fishing or hunting without one. Also, the state
is losing funding.
MR. CARPENTER said the SSN is solely a tracking number for the
U.S. government. He thinks the state should be outraged and
stand up for itself for once, because the state has been insulted
plenty. He wondered about the foreign visitors who have no
number; they are still allowed to purchase a hunting and fishing
license, but they are not required to put a SSN down. This
proves that it is only the U.S. government that is using that
number as a tracking source, he said, because they have no reason
to track foreign visitors. Alaska should consider why other
states are not requiring it, he concluded.
Number 1388
MARK CHRYSON testified via teleconference from Wasilla,
indicating he is a resident of District 28, Matanuska-Susitna
(Mat-Su) Borough, and is the President of the Alaska Independence
Party. He said he is in favor of HB 311, which repeals the law
that is in violation of the 1974 Privacy Act. There is a federal
law that states that if the information is required and it is
misused, there is a $10,000 fine; therefore, he wondered whether
that money will come out of the state's pocket if the court case
in Palmer proves that the law is unconstitutional.
MR. CHRYSON explained that people in the Mat-Su Borough have
stopped purchasing hunting and fishing licenses or stopped
renewing their driver's licenses, which means that the state is
losing money. The Constitution of the State of Alaska has the
right to privacy, he noted, which none of the other states have.
Alaskans need to stand up for themselves, he said. He referred
to Representative Kohring's comment about the 1913 Social
Security Act, where it states that the SSN was never to be used
for identification purposes. Mr. Chryson said the Privacy Act of
1974 has yet to be repealed. He noted that the SSN is a private
number between the individual and the Social Security
Administration for the "retirement account." However, currently
it is being used, as Representative Coghill pointed out, as a
national identification number. Many of the representatives have
heard horror stories about identity fraud and corruption - people
stealing other people's SSNs. He concluded by saying the people
of District 28 want the bill repealed.
Number 1688
ERIC WEATHERS testified via teleconference from Cordova. A
commercial fisherman, he spoke in full support of HB 311 but
asked that commercial fishing licenses and driver's licenses be
added to it. He said that he will not become a burden on the
government, because when people accept money from the government,
they become a servant to it. The majority of the people in
Alaska do not owe child support and will not collect welfare;
there is only a small percentage. The federal government, by
"blackmailing" the state to collect SSNs, asserts that "we" are
all its subjects. He quoted Samuel Adams:
If we love wealth better than liberty and tranquility
of servitude better than the animated contest of
freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your
counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands
of those that feed you. May your chains set lightly
upon you. May posterity forget that you were a
countryman.
MR. WEATHERS stressed that he will not give his SSN to anyone,
which makes him a criminal; therefore, passing HB 311 will be
keeping those people who choose to support themselves out of
jail.
Number 1789
JAMES GARHART testified via teleconference from Wasilla. He
stated that he is a resident of New York currently domiciled in
Alaska. He noted that in the Constitution of the State of
Alaska, under Article VIII, Section 3, Common Use, it says,
"Wherever occurring in their natural state, fish, wildlife, and
waters are reserved to the people for common use." He pointed
out that nowhere in the constitution does it say, "... are
reserved to the people who provide their social security number."
He told members:
I did some background work on this, and I found Section
7 of public law, 93-579. And basically what that says
is anybody can ask you for your social security number,
but if you don't give it to them that they cannot deny
you any right, benefit or privilege.
MR. GARHART indicated that he had gone fishing last year without
a state-issued fishing license. He referred to the comment made
earlier that foreigners do not have to provide a SSN and said it
irks him that foreigners can come in and get access to a share of
the fish that are supposedly constitutionally protected for the
people. He urged members to move HB 311 out of the committee.
Number 2013
DENNY KAY WEATHERS testified via teleconference from Cordova.
She noted that a staff member had informed her that HB 311 would
most likely die in committee. She indicated that she was
outraged by that statement because it meant that the fate of the
bill had already been decided before the voice of the people was
even heard. She stated that HB 311 is a great piece of
legislation and a good start in returning sovereignty to the
state. She requested that the committee include in the bill
noncommercial driver's licenses and commercial fishing permits
and crew licenses.
MS. WEATHERS said there is no federal law requiring that the
state must obtain a SSN for rights, benefits or privileges. In
1935, the social security was enacted as a federal Act, not a
state Act. In 1971, the Social Security Administration (SSA)
issued a task force report on issues raised by non-program social
security use; the report proposed that the SSA take a
conservative position and do nothing to promote the use of a SSN
as an identifier. In 1974, Ms. Weathers noted, Congress enacted
the Privacy Act; 93-579 limits the governmental use of the SSN.
The federal, state and local governments are prohibited from
withholding a right, benefit or privilege from a person simply
because the individual refuses to furnish his or her SSN, she
said, except under certain circumstances. She concluded that the
state is only required by federal law to give a SSN for those
people receiving federal benefits. She stressed that she hopes
that the legislators will stand up for Alaska and quit selling
out.
Number 2253
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated that she does not appreciate anyone
saying that she has sold out. She noted that everyone signed up
to testify was in support of HB 311. She asked Representative
Masek if she would entertain a motion to move HB 311 from the
committee.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said that she is a little bit offended by
some of the people testifying because the tenure implies that the
committee members are not in favor of the bill. She also does
not like to be told that she is a sellout. She said she came
into the committee meeting with the intention of moving the bill
out, but some of the testimony makes her uncomfortable. She
added that she is in favor of moving the bill.
Number 2339
BARBARA MIKLOS, Director, Child Support Enforcement Division
(DCED), Department of Revenue, testified via teleconference from
Anchorage. She noted that people have testified that it is not
part of federal law; however, it is. It is required that people
who are applying for fishing and hunting licenses provide their
SSNs. It is not necessarily a federal requirement that the state
has to adopt, but if the state does not adopt it, there is
approximately $77 million in federal funding at stake. She
agrees with many of the people testifying on the issues, she
said, but the federal government was very clear that [the state]
would lose all the child support funding, which is approximately
$14 million, as well as the public assistance (IV-A) funding.
She added that the requirements are in the Social Security Act.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES indicated that the question of losing $77
million is a question for the Finance Committee. She made a
motion to move HB 311 from committee with individual
recommendations and asked for unanimous consent. There being no
objection, HB 311 moved from the House Resources Standing
Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
CO-CHAIR MASEK adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting at 2:25 p.m.
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