Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/28/1998 02:10 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
April 28, 1998
2:10 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Ramona Barnes
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Joe Green
Representative William K. (Bill) Williams
Representative Reggie Joule
Representative Irene Nicholia
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS:
Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission
Mary McDowell - Juneau
- CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
Board of Game
Robert Churchill - Anchorage
- CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
Board of Game
Walter Sampson - Kotzebue
- CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
Board of Fisheries
Dr. John R. White - Bethel
- CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
Board of Fisheries
Russell Nelson - Dillingham
- CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
No previous action to record
WITNESS REGISTER
MARY McDOWELL, appointee
to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission
555 Hemlock Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 463-5160
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of
the committee members regarding her
confirmation to the Alaska Commercial
Fisheries Entry Commission.
DICK HOFFMAN, President
Alaska Trollers Association
130 Seward Street, Suite 505
Juneau, Alaska 99802
Telephone: (907) 586-9400
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial
Fisheries Entry Commission.
JERRY McCUNE, Representative
United Fishermen of Alaska
211 Fourth Street, Suite 112
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-2820.
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial
Fisheries Entry Commission.
ROBERT CHURCHILL, appointee
to the Board of Game
3415 Wentworth
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
Telephone: (907) 279-8927
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of
the committee members regarding his
confirmation to the Board of Game.
DICK BISHOP, Vice President
Alaska Outdoor Council
211 4th Street, Suite 302 A
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 463-3830
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Robert Churchill and Walter Sampson to the
Board of Game; and Dr. White and Russell
Nelson to the Board of Fisheries.
WALTER SAMPSON, appointee
to the Board of Game
P.O. Box 1088
Kotzebue, Alaska 99752
Telephone: (907) 442-3605
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of
the committee members regarding his
appointment to the Board of Game.
PATRICK WRIGHT, Chair
Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee
P.O. Box 90386
Anchorage, Alaska 99509
Telephone: (907) 279-1340
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Walter Sampson, Robert Churchill and Eric
Williamson to the Board of Game; and Russell
Nelson to the Board of Fisheries.
JOHN R. WHITE, Doctor, appointee
to the Board of Fisheries
P.O. Box 190
Bethel, Alaska 99559
Telephone: (907) 543-2926
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of
the committee members regarding his
confirmation to the Board of Fisheries.
BEN ELLIS, Executive Director
Kenai River Sport Fishing Association
P.O. Box 1228
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-8585
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries.
JOE HANES
P.O. Box 3132
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-6388
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries.
MYRA OLSEN, Chair
Lower Bristol Bay Advisory Committee
P.O. Box 74
Egegik, Alaska 99579
Telephone: (907) 233-2424
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries.
HAZEL NELSON
1577 "C" Street, Number 304
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
Telephone: (907) 263-9820
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries.
ALVIN PEDERSEN
PO BOX 29
CHIGNIK LAGOON, Alaska 99565
Telephone: (907) 840-2229
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries.
RICHARD SHARP
(Address not provided)
Chignik, Alaska 99564
Telephone: (Not provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries.
TONY GRAGORIO
(Address not provided)
Chignik, Alaska 99564
Telephone: (Not provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White to the Board of Fisheries.
REUBEN HANKE
P.O. Box 624
Soldotna, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 262-5097
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries.
ANDY SZCZESNY
198 Hillcrest Avenue
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-9439
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of
Dr. John White to the Board of Fisheries.
BILL SULLIVAN
P.O. Box 943
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 283-4850
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to the confirmation of
Dr. John White to the Board of Fisheries.
GRACIE KENDALL
P.O. Box 2523
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-6130
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to the confirmation of
Dr. John White to the Board of Fisheries.
RUSSELL NELSON, appointee
to the Board of Fisheries
P.O. Box 190
Dillingham, Alaska 99576
Telephone: (907) 842-2370
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of
the committee members regarding his
appointment to the Board of Fisheries.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-51, SIDE A
Number 001
CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 2:10 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Masek, Dyson, and
Green. Representatives Williams, Barnes and Joule arrived at 2:15
p.m., and 2:18 p.m. and 2:18 p.m., respectively. Representative
Nicholia arrived sometime after the call to order.
CONFIRMATION HEARING
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was the
confirmation hearing of Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial
Fisheries Entry Commission.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. McDowell to tell the committee members
why she is qualified for the job.
Number 020
MARY McDOWELL, appointee to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry
Commission, stated there are several important quasi-judicial
traits important as a member of the commission. They include the
following: being fair, objective, thorough, committed to due
process, understanding and following the law, working well with
people, and having a solid understanding of Alaska's fisheries.
She has hands-on experience in fisheries as a small business
operator providing fish-buying services to the village of Angoon,
where she learned about the importance of fisheries to individual
fishermen and their families. She also worked 16 sessions for the
Alaska State Legislature focusing mostly on fisheries issues. She
spent four years as the aide to the House Resources Standing
Committee and two years as the aide to the Senate Special Committee
on Fisheries. Her work with the legislature provided a basic
understanding of Alaska's statutes and fish and game policy
matters. In addition, she worked three years with the lieutenant
governor and governor on fisheries issues which broadened her
understanding of the executive branch by working with the
Department of Fish and Game and other individuals around the state.
She has served for about four months now with the commission and
has found that her background has prepared her well for the job.
She is committed to working hard to serve Alaska as a member of the
commission.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the arrival of Representative Bill
Williams.
Number 080
CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON noted that he knew Ms. McDowell when she
was an aide in the legislature. He found her to be very thorough
and professional. The commission is looking for people who are
balanced and judicial. He believes that Ms. McDowell would
probably provide those types of services.
Number 089
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS noted that Ms. McDowell worked for him
for two years as aide to the House Resources Standing Committee.
She was very thorough.
Number 110
REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK stated, based on Ms. McDowell's
background in Juneau and her knowledge of the statutes, she thinks
she would be pretty qualified.
Number 120
DICK HOFFMAN, President, Alaska Trollers Association, testified in
Juneau. He has known Ms. McDowell in various capacities since her
time in the legislature. He has always found her to be a tireless
worker in both the hours she puts in and her efforts to make a good
decision. For those reason, she is a good candidate. The Alaska
Trollers Association urges the committee members to vote in favor
of her confirmation.
Number 135
JERRY McCUNE, Representative, United Fishermen of Alaska, testified
in Juneau. He has personally known Ms. McDowell for the last six
years. She is very fair, a very hard worker, and very well
qualified. She knows the industry and the administrative side of
the industry. The United Fishermen of Alaska wholeheartedly
support her confirmation.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN wondered whether there is a reason for the glowing
recommendations.
MR. McCUNE replied there is no hidden agenda. She has been very
helpful, honest, and fair as a commissioner when she has had to
review a case.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, "When you do something wrong and you loose
your license, you're not going--because she knows you she'll yank
your license."
MR. McCUNE replied, "No."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced that Representatives Joule and Barnes
have joined the meeting.
Number 160
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON made a motion to recommend Mary McDowell
for her appointment.
Number 166
REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES objected and explained the process is
to report the recommendation out of the committee, not to recommend
a nomination.
Number 179
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON made a motion to recommend that the
appointment of Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries
Entry Commission be forwarded to a joint session for consideration.
There being no objection, it was so moved.
CONFIRMATION HEARING
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the
confirmation hearing of Robert Churchill to the Board of Game.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill to tell the committee members
why they should consider him favorable.
Number 199
ROBERT CHURCHILL, appointee to the Board of Game, testified in
Juneau. He has hunted since he was 10 or 11 years old. He spends
a fair amount of time both hunting and fishing. He has been a
member of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee for the
last seven years. He was chairman for two years. He thinks he can
do a good job of meeting the mandates in order to provide the
sustainable resources for Alaskans. He wants to do that for
himself, his family, his children, and hopefully their children.
Number 213
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether it is correct to
say that he has been a member of the Board of Game for awhile now.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "That's correct."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether he was part of
the meeting that adopted the "bone-in-bone-out" regulation for the
Holitna River drainage.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "No." He was present when the issues were
considered in Fairbanks, but he was not on the board when it was
originally considered.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether he was at the
meeting in Anchorage when the board reconsidered it.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he doesn't believe so. It was discussed in
Fairbanks where it was modified by removing parts of the
requirements. He cited shortening the period of time as an
example.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill to tell the committee
members exactly what his position was on the issue.
MR. CHURCHILL stated there was testimony from enforcement that
indicated it made their job much easier to deal with the wanton
waste problem. There was also testimony from Kevin Saxby from the
Department of Law because of the concerns raised by the House
Resources Committee. Mr. Saxby and the attorney general both felt
that the Board of Game had the authority to enact a meat-on-the-
bone regulation.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether Mr. Saxby cited
the specific law that gives the Board of Game the authority.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Not that I remember."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill to read the highlighted
portion of Section 16.30.030 from the Alaska Statutes.
MR. CHURCHILL read the following:
"(3) "edible meat" means, in the case of big game
animals, the meat of the ribs, neck, brisket, front
quarters as far as the distal joint of the radius-ulna
(knee), hindquarters as far as the distal joint of the
tibia-fibula (hock), and that portion of the animal
between the front and hindquarters; in the case of wild
fowl, the meat of the breast; however, "edible meat" of
big game or wild fowl does not include
(A) meat of the head;
(B) meat that has been damaged and made inedible by the
method of taking;
(C) bones, sinew, and incidental meat reasonably lost as
a result of boning or a close trimming of the bones;"
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill, after reading the
section, whether the Board of Game has the authority to require the
bone be carried out of any game management unit in the state.
MR. CHURCHILL replied yes based on the advise from the attorney
general's office.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether he believes what
the law says.
MR. CHURCHILL replied that is not what he is saying.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated either the law does not say what it
says, or he is relying on an opinion of an attorney general that
may or may not be accurate. It is simply the opinion of one
attorney. She has an opposite opinion from Legislative Legal
Services. She asked Mr. Churchill whether he believes the law or
what an attorney general says.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he believes that the attorney general is
accurate.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES said, "Mr. Chairman, in no way will I support
this person's appointment, and I will do everything in my power to
see that he is not appointed to the Board of Game."
Number 297
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked Mr. Churchill how he felt about the
initiative to stop people from using snares.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he was absolutely against it.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked Mr. Churchill how he feels about
initiatives for the purposes of managing fish and game.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he is not in favor of managing fish and game
by the ballot box. In Fairbanks, a great deal of testimony was
taken in regards to using snares. The testimony against using
snares clearly did not represent the facts. The people can manage
fish and game by the ballot box through electing legislators.
Number 322
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated Representative Barnes is reading the law
as it is clear on its face. He understands that as a board member
if something is hazy or ambiguous a member should ask for an
opinion from an attorney in order to make a decision. He asked Mr.
Churchill whether he and the other board members sat down and
discussed the law as it is currently written.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he discussed it with Kevin Saxby. He said,
"To be real candid I'm sure that we'll get a legal opinion from a
judge that tells the board whether they had that authority when
they adopted it. I didn't have the benefit of listening to those
discussion or participating in them." It might turn out that this
is something that the board doesn't have the authority to do. If
so, obviously he would support that position as a member of the
board. He said, "I understand my obligation to...to big decisions
consistent with the law of the state of Alaska. And I take it very
seriously. I would never do anything to fly in the face
consciously of those laws. But, like I said, I was not there when
those decisions were made. If the law was discussed and was
presented with a situation where it was an accomplished fact...As
I said earlier, I think we've tried to do some things as the Board
of Game to deal with the most objectional parts of that. We've
eliminated the requirement to bring out the ribs. We've reduced
the amount of time involved after October 1. That it's no longer
required to...to bring out the meat on the bone. So, no I don't
want to appear that I would arrogantly fly in the face of the law.
It's not--I would never consciously do that. But, I've never been
in the position of...of having to vote at the get-go to make these
areas an area requirement."
Number 364
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether it is correct
that the meeting in Fairbanks was in March.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Yes."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated the bone-in-bone-out issue came out as
a direct result of the Legislative Council Committee challenging
the Board of Game's authority to write a regulation that conflicts
with a statute.
MR. CHURCHILL replied there were a number of proposals dealing with
the meat-on-the-bone issue.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she took the position of the
Legislative Council Committee herself to the Board of Game in the
fall and stated very clearly that the board had violated the law.
The board said that it would take the issue up at the March
meeting. It just didn't appear at the March meeting.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he is aware of the controversy regarding the
meat-on-the-bone issue.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated somebody must have told him what the
law was otherwise he would have gotten it to read it himself,
contrary to what he stated earlier in response to Representative
Hudson's question.
MR. CHURCHILL replied that is not what he intended to say. He
knows the law. He knows how it is written. But, he is not an
attorney and he is not skilled at interpreting laws or the other
laws that relate to a law.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether the law on its
face needs an interpretation.
MR. CHURCHILL replied an interpretation was asked by the attorney
general's office. He did not ask for it and had no reason to argue
with it.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated only the legislature has the power to
manage fish and game in Alaska. The legislature delegates some of
its responsibilities through the law to the Board of Game. It does
not delegate power to the board to write laws. It delegates power
to live within the laws adopted by the legislature. The board is
to carry out the policies that the legislature sets. There is a
law on the book that is clear on its face, and it is certainly
clear on its face to any three year old who can read, but Mr.
Churchill still says that he would rely on the advise of the
attorney general rather than the advise of what's in the law. The
attorney general has no power.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he would like to have the legal issues
resolved. Obviously, any decision he has made or will make in the
future he wants it to be consistent with the laws of the state.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated Mr. Churchill indicated earlier that
he is sure that the issue will be challenged in court. Anytime a
citizen challenges something in court it costs him money. Anytime
the legislature challenges a citizen in court it costs the state
money. Neither should happen when a law is clear on its face.
Number 438
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated Representative Barnes was here when the law
was made and she went to great lengths to tell the Board of Game
that there is a problem, and the board just thumbed its nose at the
Legislative Council Committee.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill how he feels about the money
spent on the consultant from outside who studied the wolves and
intensive management. It is an area of the law that is not
enforced when it is clear that the legislature likes intensive
management activities, including predation control when necessary.
He asked Mr. Churchill, if there was a threat of a tourist boycott,
would he vote on the side of managing game according to the way the
legislature intended or would he vote on the side of keeping more
tourists from coming to Alaska.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he is on the record as supporting predator
control. As a member of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory
Committee, it put together a pretty good predator control plan.
His actions since being a member of the Board of Game have clearly
shown his position as well. Predator control in Alaska is real
important. At the Board of Game hearings he frequently asks about
the populations. He is concerned because he hears from biologists
and citizens that there appears to be a significant increase in the
predator populations - wolf and bear. The anecdotal evidence seems
to support that they are knocking down ungulate populations and in
some areas extensively. Absolutely, he supports predator control.
Similar to Representative Masek's question, people need the tools
necessary to allow them to balance the populations in their areas.
Number 488
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Churchill whether he hunts.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Yes." He has hunted both ungulates and
birds since he was relatively young.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he is familiar with
Article VIII, Section 4, of the state constitution.
MR. CHURCHILL replied somewhat.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he can paraphrase what
it says.
MR. CHURCHILL replied it means the responsible management of fish
and game for harvest.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he is familiar with
the language, "subject to preferences among beneficial uses."
MR. CHURCHILL replied he knows that the language is in it.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill to articulate what it means.
MR. CHURCHILL replied it means that when looking at game
populations the board might be making decisions that give an
advantage to local folks for example. It is similar to the
decision to make a number of the moose cow hunts in the Anchorage
area for residents only when it used to be for both residents and
nonresidents. The testimony indicated that the residents wanted a
greater opportunity to harvest the moose.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained a use is like sport hunting or fishing,
while a user is like a geographical location. He asked Mr.
Churchill in a time of shortage what would his priority be for the
user of fish and game.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he grew up in a rural area and put meat on
the table by hunting. There were also folks that didn't appear to
have the same need. He has mixed feelings about it. He believes
in managing the resources in a way that makes them healthy so that
there isn't a time of shortage.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he is aware of the
Article VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - the common use
clause.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Absolutely."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill to explain his understanding
of the clause.
MR. CHURCHILL replied it goes back to the basic belief that fish
and game are here for all of us. For example, no single person
owns a moose, until someone shoots it. In Western culture, it goes
back to the Magna Carta to ensure that people have the opportunity
to feed themselves off of the fish and game populations.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated it sounds like Mr. Churchill is familiar
with the public trust doctrine.
MR. CHURCHILL replied a little bit.
Number 853
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON referred to Mr. Churchill's resume and asked
him what is Alaska Resources Consulting.
MR. CHURCHILL replied it is a business that he started up a few
years ago as a consultant for human resource issues. It is pretty
much dormant at this point, but he does have the ability through a
business license to help folks with business problems.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Churchill whether it has anything to
do with natural resources.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "No."
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Churchill, in light of the strong
opinions of Representative Barnes, which he agrees with, would he
in the future see that the board is bound by opinions delivered by
the attorney general's office.
MR. CHURCHILL replied he has a high respect for Kevin Saxby from
the Department of Law, but he will start digging into the issue and
find out everything that he can. His intent is not to fly in the
face of the legislature. If the Board of Game has done something
that is not legal...
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Churchill whether he could just say
no he would not feel bound by them, but take them under advisement
and seek other opinions.
MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Yes."
Number 583
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill what was the basis for Mr.
Saxby's recommendation when the statute is so clear.
MR. CHURCHILL replied Mr. Saxby indicated that he had researched
the laws and discussed the issue with the attorney general.
Number 605
DICK BISHOP, Vice President, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC),
testified in Juneau. The AOC board of directors recommends the
confirmation of Robert Churchill and Walter Sampson to the Board of
Game. It does not make a recommendation on the confirmation of
Eric Williamson. In addition, the board recommends the
confirmation of Dr. John White and Russell Nelson to the Board of
Fisheries. The recommendations are the result of the collective
judgements and experiences of the board members.
Number 627
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the recommendation of
Robert Churchill to the Board of Game with individual
recommendations. There being no objection, it was so moved.
CONFIRMATION HEARING
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the
confirmation hearing of Walter Sampson to the Board of Game.
Number 634
WALTER SAMPSON, appointee to the Board of Game, testified via
teleconference in Kotzebue. He is a lifelong resident of Alaska.
He was born and raised in Noorvik. He has been with the Nana
Regional Corporation for the past 25 years. It has been a
challenge to him for the past three years as a member of the Board
of Game, especially coming from a culture of sharing, giving, and
taking only what is needed, versus a culture that provides for
those types of things by laws. He is not professing that he knows
every law on the book, but he tries to deal with them whenever he
can. He tries to get a good background knowledge of what the laws
say. Having not gone to college, he still lacks for some
educational background in reading the laws.
MR. SAMPSON further stated he thinks that the board has made some
accomplishments over the last three years. It has expanded the
opportunity for the public to participate through the advisory
councils. It has extended its meetings to regional centers to give
more opportunities to folks who are unable to make it to Fairbanks
or Anchorage. It has expanded the opportunity for its members to
go out to areas that the public cannot come in from, such as
Glennallen and Tyonek. People address their issues to the board
members over the resources and sometimes use them as a means to
vent frustrations. He hopes the changes that the board has made
can be implemented for the next three years. He understands the
concern of the cost for regional board meetings, but suggested
looking at the issues and their cost differentials.
Number 692
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson whether he was at the
special Board of Game meeting in July.
MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson to state the reason for the
board meeting.
MR. SAMPSON replied it was the issue in regards to the....
TAPE 98-51, SIDE B
Number 000
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson whether he recalls that the
board debated approximately one hour before it allowed her to
deliver the message from the Legislative Council Committee.
MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson whether he thinks that any
time a legislator comes before the Board of Game to deliver a
message on behalf of the legislature that it should take an hour to
debate whether or not the message should be delivered.
MR. SAMPSON replied he doesn't think so. The board also recognized
that if it gave an opportunity for one group it also had to give an
opportunity for the rest of the residents of Alaska.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she came before the board as an
elected official, not as a special interest group. She came as an
elected official representing the legislature yet the members of
the board debated whether or not she was a special interest group
because it was concerned about giving time to a special interest
group. As an elected representative by the people of Alaska, she
does not believe that she is in the area of a special interest
group. After extensive debate, it was decided that she could
deliver the message. She stated she will never forget that as long
as she lives. She asked Mr. Sampson, after delivering the message
and before the meeting in the fall, whether or whether not he
questioned in his mind that the law is clear on its face relating
to the bone-in-bone-out law.
MR. SAMPSON replied he thinks the law is clear.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated the only power that the board has is
what has been delegated by the legislative branch through the law.
Mr. Sampson has an obligation to go back to the board and raise the
issue again to undo the law. She asked Mr. Sampson now that he
recognizes that the law is clear on its face whether he feels an
obligation as a board member to bring the issue back before the
board recognizing that the only power of the board has been
delegated through laws by the legislature.
MR. SAMPSON replied if the board wishes to go through the process,
it can do it. If there is an attorney that says there is room in
the law, what else can you do not being an attorney to interpret
what it says? he asked.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she is not an attorney either. In
fact, she is glad that she is not an attorney. She is not the best
educated person in the world either, but she can read. "You don't
have to be an attorney to read a law that's clear on its face," she
declared. As a legislator, she has attorneys telling her day in
and day out different opinions. But it is up to her to make up her
mind what is correct.
Number 123
REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE asked Mr. Sampson, prior to his
involvement on the Board of Game, how active were the advisory
councils with regards to their access to the board.
MR. SAMPSON replied at that point in time the advisory councils
were not really active. They didn't really interact with the Board
of Game. Today, the participation of the councils are honored at
the Board of Game meetings.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sampson whether the decisions that
the board is making are the results from all perspectives because
of the councils involvement.
MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." The local advisory councils represent
different interest groups and have a voice at the board meetings.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sampson whether he feels it is a
result of the participation by the local advisory committees.
MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." The board wants to continue that
process. It is only fair and gives an opportunity for folks who
cannot come to the meetings as a means to speak to the board.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated he has known Mr. Sampson for a lot of
years. He has a lot to contribute and his education does not
require an apology. His contribution has been tremendous. The
people at home are real comfortable with just the way he is.
MR. SAMPSON thanked Representative Joule for the recognition.
Number 188
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Sampson whether he is familiar with
Article VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - the common use
clause.
MR. SAMPSON replied he is partially familiar with it. It deals
with fish and game uses for all Alaskans.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, "Reserved for the common use."
MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated a board member takes an oath to defend the
constitution and asked Mr. Sampson whether he is willing to defend
it.
MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." He tries to balance things for all
interest groups - all Alaskans. In that manner, he fits within the
Board of Game.
Number 206
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON commended Mr. Sampson for his four years of army
duty in Vietnam and for his volunteer work. Someone who is willing
to volunteer his time to the Board of Game has a strong commitment
to serve the state.
MR. SAMPSON thanked Representative Hudson for the recognition. It
is part of his culture and the way he grew up. His grandmother
told him to help anybody who needs it.
Number 230
REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA stated she has also known Mr. Sampson
for quite some time. She sat with him as a board member of the
Alaska Federation of Natives (AFN). She knows him through
conversations on statewide policies and issues, the issues that
affect the lives of the people who live in Alaska. He would be an
asset to the board and would do a good job. Despite the negative
questions, he would overcome them and contribute a lot to the
board. She supports his confirmation.
Number 254
PATRICK WRIGHT, Chair, Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee,
testified via teleconference in Anchorage. He is here to recommend
the positive confirmations of three nominees to the Board of Game -
Walter Sampson, Robert Churchill and Eric Williamson; and one to
the Board of Fisheries - Russell Nelson.
MR. WRIGHT further stated Mr. Sampson has often testified to the
Board of Game on behalf of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory
Committee and has always found that he is dedicated to the public
process. He has pursued clarification of wildlife issues by asking
questions of the advisory committee representatives to get local
input for regulatory concerns.
MR. WRIGHT stated he has worked with Mr. Churchill directly on the
Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee. He has found him to be
inspirational in always making the public feel free to express
their concerns of the natural relations. His public relations and
management skills will certainly be an asset to the Board of Game.
MR. WRIGHT stated Mr. Williamson brought special insight as a big
game guide and river guide with nonconsumptive clients, as a member
of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee.
MR. WRIGHT stated Mr. Nelson has been on the Nushagak Fish and Game
Advisory Committee and has worked with other advisory committees
both rural and urban to protect the resources in the Central
Bristol Bay Fish and Game Reserve Proposal considering the economic
dependence of commercial fisheries and the emerging tourism there.
Number 309
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the nomination of
Walter Sampson to the Board of Game from the committee with
individual recommendations. There being no objection, it was so
moved.
CONFIRMATION HEARING
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the
confirmation hearing of Doctor John R. White to the Board of
Fisheries.
Number 322
JOHN R. WHITE, Doctor, appointee to the Board of Fisheries,
testified via teleconference in Bethel. He is a 25-year resident
of Alaska and a 24-year commercial fisherman on the Kuskokwim River
and Kuskokwim Bay. He has served on the Board of Fisheries for the
preceding three years. He cited the things that he has
participated in while on the board that he thinks are notable:
shellfish depletion, Norton Sound chum salmon, cod fisheries in the
Gulf of Alaska, an open point herring fishery in Sitka Sound,
strident conflict in Cook Inlet between Area M and the Alaska
Yukon-Kuskokwim area, and the Copper River Delta users of the
resources. He always tries to use the best science available, to
be fair to all parties, and to make balanced decisions. That is
what a good board member has to do. He has been very involved in
the initiation of the sustainable fisheries project by the board.
It will hopefully mature one day so that the board and public can
have access and confidence of the objective measurement tools for
salmon stock and management success. Under his chairmanship, the
present board has been using a committee system to interact with
the public to broaden their participation in the process, and to
use the board's time more economically. The board is meeting over
100 days a year now when including the committees it uses to tackle
the broad sweep of problems before it. The committee system allows
each board member and members of the public to garner better
clarity of the issues. Finally, the Board of Fisheries will face
many challenges in the future. It is staring down the barrel of
more allocation decisions that are equally contentious. It is in
constant need of more and better research. They are formidable
challenges, and he looks forward to facing them for the next three
years.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN wondered why Dr. White or anybody would want to
volunteer another term with the Board of Fisheries. It is a
tremendous sacrifice professionally with over 100 days of meetings.
Number 400
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated there seems to be a spattering of
opposition to Dr. White's reappointment from the Kenai Peninsula in
reference to the failure to hold a meeting there. He asked Dr.
White why he made that decision.
DR. WHITE replied the decision was never made to not hold the
meeting. It was under review at the request of the members of the
board. The Board of Fisheries heard concerns from the legislators
from the area and Mayor Navarre in regards to representation
between the Kenai and Mat-Su Valley users, as well as other
concerns. The meeting is to be next February as always including
the additional element of holding public testimony in the Mat-Su
Valley to try to find a balance.
Number 428
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, according to his experience, fish
allocation issues sometime come to the brink of war. They tend to
be more contentious than any other issue in the legislature. He
asked Dr. White whether he is aware of Article VIII, Section 4, of
the state constitution - the sustained yield principle. He also
asked Dr. White to say what it means to him.
DR. WHITE replied the sustained yield principle is interpreted
differently by people. It goes to the heart of the conservation
debates that come before the board, and many times those debates
are shrouded for allocation determinations. Sustained yield to him
means that for perpetuity the opportunity for fish and game
resources will be available to the citizens and that there will be
adequate populations re-breeding for their reuse.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Dr. White whether he is aware of Article
VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - the common use clause.
DR. WHITE replied he is very aware of it. The board members were
presented with a document on the public trust doctrine at a joint
meeting. He has also been following the debates in the
legislature.
Number 467
BEN ELLIS, Executive Director, Kenai River Sport Fishing
Association, testified via teleconference in Kenai. The
association supports the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell
Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. As chairman of the board, Dr.
White has been establishing the groundwork through the sustainable
fisheries project to ensure that the salmon resources are managed
in a manner to provide sustainable salmon runs for generations to
come. His dedication to the process is unfaltering. It is a
project that will benefit not only the resource but all users. His
grasp of the fisheries issues and the ramifications of those issues
on spawning grounds is unsurpassed. He has earned the respect of
fishery scientists and lay fishermen. A second term will allow him
to bring to fruition his most worthwhile effort.
MR. ELLIS stated the association also supports Russell Nelson to
the Board of Fisheries. There is no where else in the world like
Bristol Bay for harvesting sockeye salmon. On average the
tributaries of the bay produce the largest returns of sockeye in
the world. Therefore, every governor since 1974 has placed a
representative from the bay on the board, and Mr. Nelson will
continue that rich tradition. As a former commercial drift
fisherman and herring and salmon spotting pilot, Mr. Nelson is
currently the land manager of a Dillingham Native corporation
interacting with recreational anglers. He brings that perspective
too. He is a man of integrity and has the respect of many people
in the bay and Native community. Mr. Nelson is also an avid
supporter of the sustainable fisheries project and is looking
forward to working with the other board members on the issue.
JOE HANES testified via teleconference in Kenai. He has been
fishing the Kenai River for 30 years. He was born and raised in
Alaska. He has been guiding for the last 20 years and has been
involved in the board process since 1985 as a citizen. He has been
dealing with Dr. White since his inception on the board and has
found his insight into the fisheries to be exemplary. He is
thrilled to hear that he will be devoting more time to the process.
The fisheries on the Kenai Peninsula are in deep trouble. There
are severe imbalances. Dr. White has the insight and fortitude to
take the bull by its horns and fix the fisheries so that they will
be here for both commercial and sport users for years to come.
MR. HANES stated he also supports the confirmation of Russell
Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. The size and importance of the
fishery in Bristol Bay speaks for itself.
Number 516
MYRA OLSEN, Chair, Lower Bristol Bay Advisory Committee, testified
via teleconference in Anchorage. She is a Bristol Bay drift
gillnetter and subsistence user. She is speaking in support of Dr.
White and Russell Nelson's confirmation. She has often been
frustrated at the lack of meaningful participation by the people
until last November's board meeting in Naknek where she first saw
the effectiveness of Dr. White's leadership in brining all the
stakeholders together to build consensus on the proposals that
affect us all. Finally, there is a way to regulate fisheries
taking into consideration the impacts of legislation, the
conservation of the resources, and the sustained yield principle as
a mandate for good decisions. She appreciates Dr. White's
leadership and urges his confirmation to continue the positive
influences that he has begun.
MS. OLSEN stated Russell Nelson is intelligent, articulate, and
committed to whatever he chooses to work at. He brings a well-
rounded presence. He will be a valuable addition to the board.
She has known Mr. Nelson his entire life and has always been
impressed with his fairness, hard work, and integrity. It would be
hard to find a better person to serve on the board. She supports
wholeheartedly his nomination.
Number 541
HAZEL NELSON testified via teleconference in Anchorage. She was
born and raised in Egegik. She has lived and worked in Anchorage
since the early 1980s as a representative of the Becharof
Corporation. In regards to Dr. White, she has grown to appreciate
his ability to improve the board process. He is an excellent
chairman and board member. He is always trying to make sure that
the regular fisherman is heard - those without a spokesperson. It
is important in being fair to the process. She participated at the
Bristol Bay meeting in Naknek and got to see how well the committee
process can work. It utilized the fishermen, the advisory
committees, and the board very effectively. A lot of it had to do
with the chairman allowing everyone to work out the issues amongst
everyone else so that there was more input into the process
resulting in an agreement. It also kept the board from coming up
with something that nobody would have liked and saved a lot of
time. In addition, not many people have the courage to move
forward with a political hot potato like the sustainable fisheries
effort. Those that work in the regulatory arena know that if the
initiative is not taken to address the problems of the weak stocks
everybody will pay down the road. The issue can be worked out in
the regions on a case-by-case basis and Dr. White will continue his
dedication to fairly carry the issue through the public process.
MS. NELSON stated, in regards to Russell Nelson, he is fair and
objective. She has known him for most of her life. He has been
involved in fishery resource concerns for a long time. His
experience has enabled him to see resource management from a broad
perspective of user groups within Bristol Bay. His work with
Choggiung Limited is a good example of how a Native corporation can
work with different user groups. His track record shows that the
resources come first. He will do his best to listen at the board
meetings and to understand the issues from all the perspectives.
Number 588
ALVIN PEDERSEN testified via teleconference in Chignik Lagoon. He
has worked with the board process for many years. He was involved
with the statewide implementation of the much needed State Waters
Cod Fishery. He supports the appointment of Dr. White and Russell
Nelson. Dr. White has done an excellent job as chairman and board
member. He is well respected, fair, and does a very professional
job in representing all user groups.
MR. PEDERSEN further stated Russell Nelson is well known in the
Bristol Bay region. He is fair, well-respected, and would do a
great job in representing all user groups.
MR. PEDERSEN further stated both appointments are supported by the
Lake and Peninsula Borough, Chignik Lagoon Village Council, Chignik
Advisory Committee, Chignik Marketing Association, and Chignik
Seiners Association.
Number 603
RICHARD SHARP testified via teleconference in Chignik. The Chignik
City Council passed a resolution supporting the appointment of Dr.
White and Russell Nelson.
Number 612
TONY GRAGORIO testified via teleconference in Chignik. He has
served on the Chignik Advisory Committee for 10 years and has
worked with the board process. Dr. White has helped to bring
regions together with the committee process. He appreciates the
ability for each committee to get together and talk about the
issues. There isn't always conclusion, but it is a step in the
right direction. He thanked the Board of Fisheries for the cod
fishery.
Number 624
REUBEN HANKE testified via teleconference in Kenai. He is speaking
on behalf of Dr. White and Russell Nelson and recommends their
confirmation to the Board of Fisheries.
Number 629
ANDY SZCZESNY testified via teleconference in Kenai. He is a fly
fishing guide for trout with a business in Cooper Landing. He is
in favor of Dr. White's appointment. He has been a big help on the
upper river trout issues. He has done a great job.
Number 633
BILL SULLIVAN testified via teleconference in Kenai. He is an 18-
year registered voter and resident of the Kenai Peninsula. He
feels that he has the unenviable position of enjoying Dr. White on
a personal level, but finds it increasingly difficult to relate to
him on a professional level. He feels it would be irresponsible to
suggest that Dr. White has not contributed generous amounts of his
time and energy, but he also feels strongly that the usage of his
time and talents have come and gone. The Governor is on record for
promising to restore balance to the board yet it currently is made
up of three members from Southcentral, and six out of the seven
members' expertise is invested with salmon. This does not denote
any balance in geographic representation or representation of the
full spectrum of multi-species issues that the board is challenged
with. In addition, his rewrite of the board's process distanced
the public in the offset. As a board of fish appointee, Dr. White
should be asked to explain his active participation in
orchestrating a special out-of-cycle board meeting to review the
Cook Inlet salmon fishery a few short months after Cook Inlet had
gone through the entire Board of Fisheries proposal process on its
regular cycle. The additional meeting was a significant cost to
the tax payers and individuals who chose to participate. Dr. White
should be asked to justify his participation in a board vote of 4
to 3 to carry the out-of-cycle proposals forward followed by a 6 to
1 vote the following morning to kill the proposals. This record
setting does nothing to promote participation by the public in the
process, unless one is a stakeholder from the camp that the board
has undeniably waited in favor of. In addition, he is opposed to
Dr. White's reappointment because of his intended use of the
subcommittee process pushed forward as the chairman of the board.
He feels that the board is record building to justify the actions
destined to come out of these subcommittees at the February-1999
meeting. He feels that the board is record building in order to
claim stakeholder participation in the process while enabling the
board to push through its own agenda on Cook Inlet issues. At the
recent February board meeting Dr. White put every proposal into
committee process when history speaks well of past chairs
effectively doing business without going to this extreme. Again,
his point is that the committee process has merit, but its recent
use by Dr. White is diluting the participation by the public and in
an unprecedented manner diluting the input of the advisory
committees. This is a classic strategy to divide and conquer and
does nothing to endure a board with a lengthening record of suspect
actions. He feels that Dr. White has made a valuable contribution
to the board, but feels even stronger that the direction the board
is taking under his participation as vice chair and chair does not
serve the public process constructively. The legislature would be
well advised to oppose his confirmation.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Sullivan whether he is representing
himself.
MR. SULLIVAN replied, "Correct."
Number 690
GRACIE KENDALL testified via teleconference in Kenai. She is
against the reappointment of John White. He has already served one
term on the board and is not objective. He needs to move aside and
allow someone else to serve. The board alienates the public
process and advisory committees and Dr. White is confusing
allocation with conservation. He seems to want to allocate more
fish to sport guides above and beyond biological escapement goals
for the Kenai River which encourages more habitat destruction and
more unlimited guides. There are already 400 registered guides and
about 75 that aren't registered on the Kenai River alone for last
year. Dr. White wants the coastal communities to choose between
commercial fishers in Cook Inlet and commercial fishers in the
river. There are too many guides commercializing within the river.
If it continues, the fisheries will be destroyed....
TAPE 98-52, SIDE A
Number 000
MS. KENDALL continued. He is biased against Cook Inlet fishers and
should give someone else a chance to serve who is more objective.
She thinks that the Board of Fisheries is a joke. There needs to
be objective and fair people on the board and Dr. White is not one
of them.
Number 016
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. Kendall whether Dr. White is against
commercial drift fishers in Cook Inlet.
MS. KENDALL replied she is talking about commercial fishers in Cook
Inlet versus the in-river commercial sport guides.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated there are those in the upper Cook Inlet
area who are advocating that sustained yield is not being
maintained on some streams because of intercept fisheries and other
pressures being put on its management, especially in regards to
Kenai River red salmon. Members of the Department of Fish and Game
have admitted to him that the upper Cook Inlet is managed by
default when there is a large return of red salmon to the Kenai
River. He asked Dr. White to comment on the issue.
Number 053
DR. WHITE replied he has commented a lot already. He thinks his
decisions have been pretty fair. They have tried to address
allocation between the central district drift fleet and the in-
river users in the Mat-Su Valley. The best answer to the sustained
yield question is the adequacy of the science that sorts out the
stocks while they are involved in the set net fishery of the
northern district and the drift fishery in the central district,
and the ability to distinguish the stocks and their destinations.
That science isn't there. Any measure of how to achieve that isn't
there. It is one of the things that he hopes to come out of the
back end of the sustainable fisheries project - long-term research
plans that actually figure out the research needed for the stock
separation. Otherwise, fighting over who has the responsibility to
conserve will result in no stocks. The concern about the sustain
ability of the stock is very real right now.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Dr. White how far off the set nets run on
the Kenai Peninsula.
DR. WHITE replied he would have to find the answer in a book.
CONFIRMATION HEARING
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the
confirmation hearing of Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries.
Number 123
RUSSELL NELSON, appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testified via
teleconference in Dillingham. He is supportive of the board
process. If appointed, he will work hard for the conservation and
development of fishery resources. As a member of the Nushagak Fish
and Game Advisory Council, the Dillingham City Planing Commission,
and former chairman of the Alaska Rural Communications Council and
present member, he has shown his interest in community service. He
understands the time and commitment involved to be a competent
member of the board. He also feels his resume shows that his
abilities and experiences are consistent with the responsibilities
of the position. He has the support of his family and employer.
He has discussed the travel away from Bristol Bay with each of them
and both have agreed to his involvement. He is in excellent
health, enjoys traveling, and meeting people. He would thank the
committee members for their consideration of his qualifications for
the position.
Number 156
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Nelson whether he is familiar with
Article VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - common use
clause.
MR. NELSON replied, "Yes."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Nelson whether he is familiar with
Article VIII, Section 4, of the state constitution - sustained
yield principle.
MR. NELSON replied, "Yes."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Nelson what his interpretation is of the
provision in the sustained yield principle, "subject to preferences
among beneficial uses."
MR. NELSON replied he believes it is a good section. Fish and
wildlife resources should be available to everyone. In terms of
sustained yield, it is important to have enough brood stock. "If
you just utilize a resource without conservation, then eventually
you're not going to have anything left for everyone to divide up,"
he stated. He would like to go for a maximum yield depending on
what is being harvested and what the rivers can support.
Number 202
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the recommendations of
Dr. John R. White, Russell Nelson, and Eric Williamson from the
committee.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that there isn't a quorum.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order.
Number 223
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the recommendations of
Dr. John R. White, Russell Nelson and Eric Williamson from the
committee. There being no objection, it was so moved.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 227
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting at 3:55 p.m.
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