Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/12/1998 01:11 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 12, 1998
1:11 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Joe Green
Representative Irene Nicholia
Representative Reggie Joule
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Ramona Barnes
Representative William K. (Bill) Williams
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HOUSE BILL NO. 284
"An Act relating to infestations and diseases of timber."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 284
SHORT TITLE: TIMBER THREATENED BY PESTS OR DISEASE
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) HODGINS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
05/10/97 1807 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
05/10/97 1807 (H) RESOURCES
03/12/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 110
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3779
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 284.
MARTHA WELBOURN, Deputy Director
Central Office
Division of Forestry
Department of Natural Resources
3601 "C" Street, Suite 1034
Anchorage, Alaska 99503-5937
Telephone: (907) 269-8473
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 284.
GEORGE PINE
P.O. Box 4
Tok, Alaska 99780
Telephone: (907) 883-2182
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284.
LARRY SMITH
1520 Lakeshore Drive
Homer, Alaska 99603
Telephone: (907) 235-3588
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284.
LAURA HENRY
P.O. Box 80284
Fairbanks, Alaska 99708
Telephone: (907) 455-6719
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284.
DOUGLAS YATES, Education Coordinator
Alaska Boreal Forest Council
P.O. Box 221
Ester, Alaska 99725
Telephone: (907) 479-8300
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284.
DAN STEIN
1712 Gilmore Trail
Fairbanks, Alaska 99712
Telephone: (907) 458-9386
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 284.
BRUCE ABEL, President
Juneau Chamber of Commerce
9999 Glacier Highway
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 789-2155
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of HB 284.
PAMELA LaBOLLE, President
Alaska State Chamber of Commerce
217 2nd Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-2323
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284.
MURRAY WALSH, Representative
Juneau Resource Alliance
2974 Foster Avenue
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-1106
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284.
WAYNE NICOLLS, Representative
Alaska Society of American Foresters
9723 Trappers Lane
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 789-5405
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284.
ROGER BURNSIDE
(Address not provided)
Telephone: (907) 269-8460
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions of the committee members on
HB 284.
CLIFF EAMES, Representative
Alaska Center for the Environment
519 West 8th Street, Number 201
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
Telephone: (907) 274-3621
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 284.
SEAN McGUIRE
351 Cloudberry Lane
Fairbanks, Alaska 99709
Telephone: (Not provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-33, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:11 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Masek, Dyson,
Nicholia and Joule. Representative Green arrived at 1:17 p.m.
HB 284 - TIMBER THREATENED BY PESTS OR DISEASE
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON announced the only order of business was House
Bill Number 284, "An Act relating to infestations and diseases of
timber."
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON called on Representative Mark Hodgins, sponsor
of the bill.
Number 0058
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of
HB 284, stated the bill is an attempt to prod state government into
reacting to the beetle kill situation, not only on the Kenai
Peninsula but other areas of the state. He read the following
sponsor statement:
"This legislation amends AS 41.17.082(d) to require the
commissioner to implement necessary salvage measures when timber on
state or municipal forest land is:
(1) infested or diseased and thereby poses a significant
threat to surrounding healthy timber, or
(2) subjected to an environmental catastrophe, and as a
result, is susceptible to infestation or disease, to
prevent the spread of infestation or disease, the timber
shall be salvaged as rapidly as practicable. If
possible, salvage should occur before there is a
significant loss of merchantability of the timber."
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated he will draw his comments on the
Kenai Peninsula. The area has been infested with spruce bark
beetle that attacks the white spruce tree. The infestation has
spread and because of the warming temperatures in Alaska the
spread is catastrophic. There are some areas on the Kenai
Peninsula that are from 80 to 90 percent infected. Unless
something is done with the timber, there is a tremendous fire
danger thereby not allowing any reforestation. He would like to
take the product - timber - that has been salvageable in the past
and open it up to operators to remove it and get some value out of
it. For the past few years there have been different task forces
to find out what can be done with the timber. The only task force
or commission that has not been done so far is to determine what
direction the trees are going to fall. Some of the timber is now
past its usefulness. It does not have enough moisture weight for
even the chipping process, the lowest possible use. But there is
quite a bit of timber available for high-grade, value-added type of
situations. There are a number of timber operators on the Kenai
Peninsula that would love to be able to select some of the timber,
harvest it, reforest the areas, and utilize it for log homes and
dimensional lumber. The longer the wait, the timber becomes more
and more useless. In Ninilchik there are areas where the timber is
virtually useless. He asked the committee members to consider HB
284 with the idea of mandating the commissioner to do something
when these types of infestations hit.
Number 0341
REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA asked Representative Hodgins whether
the Kenai Peninsula Borough has a spruce beetle task force.
Number 0359
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "Yes." He is not sure whether it
would be the task force to determine which way the trees fall when
they finally die. In all seriousness, the borough does have a task
force and has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to
study the issue. Each time the recommendation is to remove the
trees and reforest the area for its health, another task force is
developed. "I guess they're trying to figure out that there's
nothing we should do or else wait till the trees are completely
useless that they--nobody wants to cut them anymore." There is
danger of losing the forest in Kenai, Copper River, and other areas
infected. In Cooper Landing some areas were harvested about four
to five years ago. The Forest Service has tried to put forward
tracks of land, only to be stopped by the environmentalists. There
is a tremendous concern from the environmentalists, but they are
misguided because the intent is for reforestation, not to have the
areas burn creating a hazard. Last year, there was a meeting in
Homer regarding the potential for a fire. The fire department
reacted by having the people remove the timber from their homes or
there will be another Millers Reach fire. It is that critical in
terms of the dryness of the timber and how fires spread.
Firefighters are reluctant to go into a spruce bark beetle area
because of the intensity of the heat. There have been resolutions
brought forward from the borough and cities. It has been an
ongoing thing for the last six to eight years.
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON announced the arrival of Representative Green.
Number 0596
CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN asked Representative Hodgins whether there
are provisions in the bill that will actually help small timber
operators. He knows operators in his district that would like to
get their hands on some quality timber. In Montana, there was a
huge log home industry built around salvaged timber sales. He
would prefer to help the small operators than some of the bigger
ones.
Number 0694
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied that is exactly how he feels about
it too. He would prefer to have the small operator have the first
shot, but the state is past that now. Something needs to be done
with the trees. The bill would mandate the commissioner to do
those kinds of things. There are small operators that would love
to get some timber, but that is not going to solve the problem.
There are areas on the Kenai Peninsula that would be uneconomical
to salvage timber from. Even the environmentalist would like to
see something done when the forests turn red and the trees die.
For the beetles to move there has to be a wind with a 60 degree
temperature. Beetles are not strong flyers, but they can be
carried for four to five miles downwind. They infect usually a
nine-inch and above tree, the kind of tree a small operator would
like to harvest. He has gotten some of the fishing industry to
support selective harvesting, but it is cost prohibitive and the
red tape is too extensive for a small operator to get involved.
The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) is becoming more and more
amiable to help satisfy the needs of small operators which is why
the state's timber operations are usually geared to the larger
companies.
Number 0876
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 2, line 15, "exempt salvage and
emergency sales of less than 200 acres from the preparation of a
plan of operations under AS 41.17.090;" and asked Representative
Hodgins whether it covers the streambed.
Number 0917
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied there is a bill now that would
prevent activity from getting too close to the streambed.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the bill is for Southeast Alaska, not
anywhere else.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated in his area there is the Forest
Practices Act and the state. There would be a setback situation at
the commissioner's discretion.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated even though the language says 200
acres there still is no access. The larger operator is needed to
put in roads for access. The smaller operator works off of the
accesses, otherwise they are stuck to roadside type of sales.
Number 0991
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked Representative Hodgins whether
there is a mechanism whereby revenues could come from the harvest
of the timber to reimburse the state for the cost of the fiscal
note.
Number 1009
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "Yes." The state has the ability
to weight the monetary gain from harvesting against reforestation.
The borough has received money back from CIP (capital improvement
project) sales. In order to solve the entire problem on the Kenai
Peninsula it would cost the state about $9 million in revenues, and
it would not receive any back. He's not sure if even $9 million
would even solve all of the problem, but it would solve a lot of
it. The idea is to get the forests healthy. The beetles are
hitting trees 9 inches and above. With the warmer weather and the
tremendous amount of infestation, they are actually hitting the
smaller trees which is a natural defense because a smaller tree is
healthier so that when a beetle bores into the tree it is pitched
out like candle wax. If the wax is red in color it is from a
spruce bark beetle. The Forest Practices Act says there must be
450 live trees per acre left after seven years. If that cannot be
maintained through harvesting then reseeding is necessary. It is
imperative to remember the most important thing to do is reseed.
According to statute, 25 percent of all revenue that comes in on
forest lease sales has to go back for reseeding. The legislature
has been remiss by not following through with that statute.
Number 1153
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Co-Chairman Hudson whether it is his
intent to move the bill out of the committee today.
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON replied he has not decided. He definitely wants
to give it a good hearing.
Number 1163
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN stated several years ago the state tried
to do something in terms of safety because of the rapid expansion
of the devastation. A fire could "cook" a lot of tourists and
Alaskans given that the Kenai Peninsula is a one-road system. He
asked Representative Hodgins whether the plan in the bill is trying
to get ahead of the problem and suppress the possibility of fire,
trying to go back into areas that have already been devastated, or
both.
Number 1205
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied both. The infestation on the Kenai
Peninsula and the Hillside area in Anchorage is very, very
substantial. At this point, removing the fuel source is probably
the highest and best plan of attack along with reseeding. The
entire Kenai Peninsula has been infested - 45 to 50 percent - and
on average 60 to 70 percent of the infested areas are in various
states of dryness and flammable.
Number 1267
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Representative Hodgins, if the state is
to look at just salvaging lands, is there a rationale for the huge
fiscal note. He also asked Representative Hodgins whether there is
any avenue of federal assistance.
Number 1304
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied last year Senator Torgerson went to
Washington, D.C., talked with Senator Murkowski, and got $500,000
to go towards preparing timber sales similar to the idea in the
bill. It has gotten off track. Senator Torgerson had hoped that
he would get $6 to $8 million from the federal government since
most of Alaska is impacted by federal lands. The problem is, if
the state waits, it will probably be the one that writes the check.
He would like to be proactive to mitigate any problems. In
addition, testimony from the Kenai Peninsula Borough has indicated
there are concerns of beetle killed trees that could be blown over
in a high wind and affect the power lines, for example. It is time
to do something about it. The salvage idea is going in the right
direction.
Number 1415
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered, if the state does not get ahead of
the problem from a safety standpoint, is it too late to do
anything.
Number 1444
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated the fire on the Kenai Peninsula in
1947 burned for two years in Moose Pass. It smoldered in the
muskeg and sprang up the next year. Today, there is still evidence
that there was a fire. There will be areas on the Kenai Peninsula
that will not be harvested and they will burn naturally.
Logically, the areas that can be harvested should be harvested
along with reforestation, and try to keep fires contained from the
population centers.
Number 1500
MARTHA WELBOURN, Deputy Director, Central Office, Division of
Forestry, Department of Natural Resources, testified via
teleconference in Anchorage. The Department of Natural Resources
(DNR) shares the concerns about the impact of infestations and
diseases on Alaska's forests, particularly the impact of the bark
beetle epidemic in Southcentral. The department continues to have
active timber salvage and reforestation programs on the Kenai
Peninsula, Haines and Copper River. The department has appreciated
the support from the legislature in recent years through CIP
funding for the salvage programs. On the Kenai Peninsula, the
department has offered 23 sales and 21 have been sold. More sales
are in preparation now. The department is also working
cooperatively with the borough and local governments to reduce the
risk of fires. But many of the highest risk areas are not on state
lands; they are on private lands. The department is also working
with the Spruce Bark Beetle Task Force on the Kenai Peninsula under
the leadership of the borough. The task force is identifying
priorities for actions to respond to the infestation. It will
consider health and safety issues. It is coordinating information
and participation from a broad group of interests. The department
supports the process and looks forward to working with local, state
and federal agencies, and private landowners to implement the
recommendations. It will keep the legislature briefed on its
progress. It has to act quickly because the final report to
Congress is due in June. The department does not support HB 284 at
this time. Firstly, legislative action should wait for the
recommendations from the task force. Secondly, as written, it
would increase agency work load with having little affect on the
infestation on the ground. It would require additional insect and
disease surveys statewide to identify infestation zones, and
negotiation of agreements with numerous landowners. Additional
salvage would require funding for sale layout, design and
administration. The bill would not provide the department with
additional tools to address the funding, market and multiple-use
issues that constrain current responses to infestations and
diseases. A salvage sale often exceeds the cost of revenue
received, particularly when it requires reforestation. And
reforestation is required from all areas that have been salvaged on
state lands. Finally, the exemption from the notification
requirements would eliminate the department's ability to enforce
the Forest Practices Act on those sale areas, the only way to know
what is happening on those lands. A fiscal note from DNR has been
transmitted to the committee.
Number 1676
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn when she first noticed the
spruce bark epidemic.
Number 1681
MS. WELBOURN replied it would have preceded her tenure with the
division. It was noted back in the 1980s.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked MS. Welbourn what was done to try and
stem it.
Number 1690
MS. WELBOURN replied there were a variety of actions taken at the
local level. It has expanded at a speed and over a large enough
area that it is probably not possible to control it. The
contributing factor has been unusually warm weather. It is not
clear if it is controllable.
Number 1715
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he is concerned that the department
would still stand in the way of an attempt to try and do some good.
He asked Ms. Welbourn whether the department is going to wait until
the entire state has died off, or just weather the storm.
Number 1750
MS. WELBOURN replied the department has offered 23 salvage sales on
the Kenai Peninsula, in the Haines and Copper River areas. As
Representative Hodgins mentioned, much of the state's timber is not
accessible. In fact, access used to reach timber sales now has
been through private lands built by the owners which greatly has
reduced the cost of the sales.
Number 1775
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether there is a
deterioration in value with time after an attack.
MS. WELBOURN replied, "Yes."
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether a lot of the timber
sales suffer from too much time after the attack thereby reducing
its value.
MS. WELBOURN replied there are two things that have affected the
value - the time since the attack and the drop in the markets.
Number 1799
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn how far can a beetle go
from tree to tree.
Number 1815
MS. WELBOURN replied a beetle can travel a few hundred yards.
Number 1820
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether there has been the
concept of sacrificial trees discussed in order to keep the plague
from expanding and to act as a fire break.
Number 1840
MS. WELBOURN replied on small sites that is possible. A beetle can
travel 100 yards without the assistance of wind. As Representative
Hodgins noted, a beetle can travel further with wind assistance.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether the distance
depends on the strength of the wind.
MS. WELBOURN replied, "Yes." They can travel five to seven miles
perhaps.
Number 1855
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the spruce trees are completely dead on
Kalgin Island in the middle of Cook Inlet.
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Ms. Welbourn how it would get started on
a place like Kalgin Island when they are not moveable, except for
relatively short distances.
Number 1890
MS. WELBOURN replied bark beetles are endemic. Wherever there are
spruce forests there are bark beetles. They typically exist in
relatively low numbers then periodically expand. An outbreak
typically knocks out 30 percent of the mature trees, then die back
down. What is seen now is unusual, and part of the intensity is
due to the weather conditions.
Number 1912
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated the beetles also spread through
transporting wood from one area into another area.
Number 1922
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Ms. Welbourn whether the outbreak in
Southeast is expanding.
Number 1932
MS. WELBOURN replied there has been an active outbreak in the
Haines area and there have been salvage sales. She does not know
whether it is still expanding or starting to peak, however.
Number 1953
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated there is a $50 million budget cut
process underway. She wondered how the fiscal note would fit into
the budget scheme and where would the money come from.
Number 1964
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied the fiscal note would increase the
budget. It is a matter of weighing what is good for the people in
the state. To solve the entire problem on the Kenai Peninsula it
would cost from $8 to $9 million. He suggests moving the fiscal
note forward with the bill with the idea that any money spent on
the idea in the bill would not be spent on fighting forest fires.
In addition, it is important to remember that there could be human
lives involved. It is also a step towards healthy forests. The
state is outnumbered in terms of acres because of the outbreaks.
Emergency declarations and moves are needed.
Number 2058
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated, in reference to buffers on anadromous
streams mentioned earlier, it is his understanding that the Forest
Practices Act requires buffers on all anadromous streams statewide.
The bill recently introduced by Speaker Phillips (HB 373) would
widen it to tributaries and other waters in Southeast only. He
asked Ms. Welbourn if the bill was passed would there be buffers on
anadromous streams up North.
Number 2080
MS. WELBOURN replied there are different standards for public and
private lands now. The bill (HB 373) would require a 66 foot
buffer on type A anadramous streams on private lands in Region I
(the coastal areas). There is a zone along the anadramous streams
where harvest can take place in the rest of the state, but it has
to be done with consideration for fish habitat and water quality.
On state and municipal lands there is a required 100-foot set back
in Region I and Region II. Region II is state lands south of the
Alaska Range. In the area of Kenai and Copper River there is a
100-foot buffer on state lands. Under the bill, the department
will maintain buffers anyway. On private lands, if there is an
exemption for sales less than 200 acres from a plan of operation,
the department would not have a way of knowing about those
operations and no vehicle for enforcing the Forest Practices Act.
Number 2143
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 2, line 15 of the bill and asked
Ms. Welbourn whether there could be a timber clearing on less than
200 acres without a plan of operation and the department would not
have a way to verify it.
MS. WELBOURN replied, "Correct."
Number 2199
GEORGE PINE testified via teleconference in Tok. He supports the
bill. He supports (2) on page 2, line 13 because the eventual loss
of revenue would be greater in the long run than what it might cost
the state at that particular time. He also supports (3) and (4) on
page 2. Forestry wants to have its finger on everything that is
going on in the state, but in the process time is being wasted when
it could contribute to the harvesting of the timber. If there had
been a more aggressive program earlier, the state would not be
facing a lot of the problems today. In the Tok area there are
little patches of infested timber. He would like to make sure that
while it is small it can be harvested.
Number 2288
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Pine what he produces now in Tok in
terms of volume.
Number 2297
MR. PINE replied he has been producing and harvesting timber killed
from the 1986 fire. He has also been buying green timber from the
state. Production is around 400,000 cubic board feet.
Number 2319
LARRY SMITH testified via teleconference in Homer. He has been
using spruce on the Kenai Peninsula for 39 years as a matter of
preference. He participated in the rewrite of the Forest Practices
Act. The first meeting in Homer on controlling bark beetle was 20
years ago. The experts assured everyone that there was no problem.
There is a longer history than most people are aware of. He read
a forest service report from 1904, "Along both shores of Kachemak
Bay and on the elevated plateau between it and Cook Inlet, the
forest condition is poor. While there's a fair stand of trees for
the region, they are practically gone. Along the bays shore, 40 to
60 percent of the older standing trees are dead, and on the high
plateau 80 to 100 percent are dead but still standing. Having
evidently all died about the same time, they are being succeeded by
new growth not as thrifty as their predecessors. This growth has
not yet grown to lumber size. The largest being only 12 to 14
inches in diameter and without care their future is destruction by
fire." There has not been a significant fire along the low lands
in Kachemak Bay because it is not a fire ecology. As a resident of
Homer, he has cut down, sawed and turned into furniture old
standing dead wood. The Kenai burn in 1947 allowed him to build a
house 30 years after the burn. In fact, there are poles still
being sold from that burn. That is not to say that trees will
stand up forever.
TAPE 98-33, SIDE B
Number 0000
MR. SMITH continued. Studies have shown that dead trees going back
20 years are still useful for chips and pulp. The highest value
for the timber is when it is turned into houses and lodges.
Standing dead trees have always been a very valued commodity to
make log buildings, for example. Trees are deliberately killed by
girdling so they dry out standing to make log buildings. It
happens in Scandinavia and America. At the Kennicott Mine
deliberate fires were set to dry out the standing dead wood for
building and fuel. There is a history of miners up the Kuskokwim
and Yukon Rivers that deliberately carried beetle infested trees as
a logging technique and strapped them into un-infested areas to dry
other trees for a source of fuel wood for the steamboats and
building materials for the mining operations.
MR. SMITH stated ten years ago a group that he is associated with
in Homer asked that the provision in the Forest Practices Act
extend to their part of the state. They were pleased when there
was no opposition and now there is language in statute. He
sympathizes with Representative Hodgins because there has never
been a ticket written by the Department of Natural Resources to use
any of the tools that were increased in 1990. Therefore, he
suggests providing funds so that the state can step forward and
hire entomologists to enforce the Forest Practices Act (FPA) as it
exists. The Kenai Peninsula Borough and the Alaska Board of
Fisheries in resolutions have asked that the principle
responsibility for the FPA be transferred from DNR to the
Department of Fish and Game, an agency that might have a better
budget. Try it first before introducing additional legislation,
otherwise ten times as much money will be needed than what is
called for in the fiscal note.
Number 0194
LAURA HENRY testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. As a
relatively new citizen of Alaska, she wonders what is the purpose
of the bill. She's not convinced it is economics. It can't be
aesthetics because the sight of a clear cut is much more offensive
than dead trees left by beetles. The only thing left is an honest
attempt to control the threat of infestation or disease. Why try
to control a natural process? she asked. Nature generally knows
how to mange itself. Dead trees are a healthy part of a healthy
forest. Are we scared of the threat of fire? she asked. Biologist
have long agreed that fires are often necessary for the survival of
an ecosystem. Alaska is the easiest place in the nation to let
fires run their course. The bill would be a step in the exact
opposite direction. The bill does not make any sense at all.
Number 0310
DOUGLAS YATES, Education Coordinator, Alaska Boreal Forest Council,
testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. Beetles like fire are
a natural part of the forest ecosystem. Expert after expert will
say that the spread of beetles can not be controlled. He
recommends deferring any movement on the bill until the Kenai
Peninsula task force has the opportunity to investigate all of the
options available. Similarly, the council is sponsoring a beetle
workshop in Fairbanks on April 9 and 10 where other experts -
foresters, economist, ecologists - will bring issues to the public
that bear directly on this phenomena and bill. He is sympathetic
to Representative Hodgins' issue of defensible space for homes and
businesses, but the bill goes further than that.
Number 0393
DAN STEIN testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He is a
recent graduate in forest ecology. He is in opposition to HB 284.
It is a hasty move to deal with the bark beetle infestation around
the state. It is not about retarding the movement of the beetle,
but more of an excuse to cut healthy and diseased timber at an
increased rate. Harvesting will not stop the spread of beetles.
The bill mandates that salvage operations need to be implemented
even at a loss to the state. If logging will not stop the spread
of the beetle, the question should be asked if the timber industry
needs to be subsidized. The issue of a fire hazard is a concern to
communities, but live trees, especially spruce, can be a greater
fire risk because they retain their beetles and are extremely
flammable. The worry is valid, but it needs to be put into
perspective. The bill is premature and potentially undermines the
federally funded Kenai Peninsula Bark Beetle Task Force. It is
addressing the same issue with experts from various fields, House
Bill 284 was not drafted with the variety of interest and
expertise. In addition, in April the Alaska Boreal Forest Council
is hosting a symposium for land managers, legislators, and faculty
members from the university system. The main issue is the health
of forests in the Interior, primarily beetle infestations. The
bill would affect the whole state when management might be
different in Southeast, for example. The Board of Forestry is also
a forum to discuss these matters. It should be asked to review the
bill. In July, the board's agenda is to review what is known about
the bark beetle in the state. The bill would also call for greater
clarification - Section 2(3) and (5). Currently, the acreage
exempted from a plan of operation in Region I is 10 acres; Region
II - 48 acres; and Region III - 160 acres. Therefore, it is not a
drastic increase for the Interior, but what about Southeast and
Southcentral. Subsection (5) would allow any chapter in the Forest
Practices Act to be waived to allow for salvage logging. It would
also allow the public comment period to be waived.
Number 0578
BRUCE ABEL, President, Juneau Chamber of Commerce, testified in
Juneau. The chamber represents interests with the objective of
improving the business climate and to make communities more
prosperous, ecologically attractive, and a better place to work and
live. The chamber has been aware of the unprecedented loss of
spruce forests on the Kenai Peninsula, Southcentral and the
northern part of Southeast. The chamber is also aware that many
leaders have recognized the disastrous loss and the potential
threat of property and life by fire. Insects and disease
infestations pose adverse economic and environmental impacts on the
communities, lands, fish and wildlife resources. When a large part
of forests are devastated the resulting build-up of fuels also
threatens homes, businesses, schools and the people who live within
or adjacent to the dead forests. The Juneau Chamber of Commerce
strongly supports HB 284. The provisions to salvage dead trees
will not only yield economic benefits, but also help retard the
spread of infestation and ensure the restoration of the spruce
forest ecosystems essential for fish and wildlife species dependent
on the forest and restore the scenic and aesthetic values.
Number 0686
PAMELA LaBOLLE, President, Alaska State Chamber of Commerce,
testified in Juneau. The chamber is in favor of the bill. For the
last two years the issue of the spruce bark beetle epidemic has
been high on the chamber's priority list. Action should have been
taken years ago. It has now reached an emergency status. The
chamber is greatly concerned about the forest ecosystems, their
habitats and destruction in populated areas causing property values
to diminish, and the increasing risk of fires. The cost of
fighting a fire is very significant not only in dollars but lives
when it can be diverted. The chamber feels it is imperative that
the legislature take action now. If the state continues to study
the spruce bark beetle, there will be dead and rotten timber with
no economic value. It presents a significant fire danger that
harms the ecosystem and does not give back anything. At least in
logging one of the benefits is reseeding. The cost in the front-
end will save more money than if the states waits any longer. The
chamber very strongly urges the committee members to support the
bill.
Number 0880
MURRAY WALSH, Representative, Juneau Resource Alliance, testified
in Juneau. The alliance is associated with the chamber of
commerce, but fancies itself as more bony and gristly. The gravity
of the spruce bark beetle is not being appreciated. There is a lot
of talk about the natural cycles, but prairie fires can be
considered natural even if they burn towns because of the way
deserts work. The bark beetle should not be compared to that. It
should be compared to the bubonic plague as a natural cycle among
human beings. It is far more frightening and dangerous than what
prairie fires represent in California. If there is a complaint
from the alliance about the bill, it does not ring its bells
enough. It does not frighten enough. It is a good attempt to do
something, but if the legislature is going to do anything it should
do more. The spruce bark beetle could have a dramatic effect on
the forest landscape of Alaska as the goat did to the landscape of
the Middle East thousands of years ago. The introduction of the
goat turned the grasslands and forests into deserts.
Number 0971
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated, even if it is a delaying cause, the
state should do something proactive. He would sleep better at
night knowing that he did his very best to prevent something from
happening rather than watching it go.
Number 1016
WAYNE NICOLLS, Representative, Alaska Society of American
Foresters, testified in Juneau. The society generally supports HB
284. It is primarily concerned with the fire potential and all
that it could mean to the landscape, watersheds and so forth. The
primary interest in the long-term is the restoration of the spruce
forest ecosystem. The society does not presume to guess what the
task force will come up with, but there is nothing in the bill that
would bind or restrict what it may come up with. In regards to the
idea of it being natural, it depends on the definition of nature.
For example, the bronchitis that he has had since December is
natural, but he does not want to live with it any longer.
Initially, some measure of control is possible such as, removing
preferred trees in advance of an epidemic.
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated one of the suggestions by Representative
Green is to put up a beetle/fire break.
MR. NICOLLS stated it is passed that now for the vast majority of
areas.
Number 1195
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Nicolls whether there is any type of
spray that could be used in remote areas.
Number 1211
MR. NICOLLS replied he does not know about the use of any type of
pesticides on the beetle in a forest situation. There are
treatments for individual trees in home sites, however.
Number 1241
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated hypothetically a prisoner with an
electronic monitor could be sent out to the front areas with a
systemic fertilizer to help do something.
Number 1257
MR. NICOLLS replied the timeliness of anything effective is so
strict that it is very difficult to treat the problem on a large
scale with an aerial spray.
Number 1297
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Burnside to address the question of
using a spray to halt the disease.
Number 1300
ROGER BURNSIDE testified via teleconference in Anchorage. He
stated the use of a spray is only possible to prevent attacks on a
tree-by-tree basis, not over the landscape. A beetle is protected
for 99 percent of its life cycle under the bark where it can't be
reached by chemicals.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Burnside about a systemic attack.
MR. BURNSIDE replied a systemic attack has been tried with a
limited amount of success. It is cost prohibitive in remote areas
because of the transportation of people and equipment. There is no
way he can see any control of the beetle population because it is
out of control. There is no way to get ahead of it to attack it.
It is probably a natural event in terms of when the outbreaks have
occurred in the past. He does not know how throwing enough money
at it will address the problem statewide.
Number 1395
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Burnside whether there has been other
large disease areas like this that have cured themselves or
recovered and went on to be healthy forests.
MR. BURNSIDE replied he does not want to get into defining what is
a healthy forest. A healthy forest is a natural system with as
much growth and diversity of wildlife and plants as those dying
each year. He cited the Copper River valley in the early to mid
1920s. It did respond in some respects because there was
regeneration of some sites. It will depend a lot on the specific
areas. He does not see it occurring in the Interior unless there
is a major disturbance like a fire to clear the seedbed for
regeneration. He is not sure whether it will be fire or insects
that will shape the ecosystem of the Kenai Peninsula. This is a
complex subject and the intent of the legislation is good.
However, the state has been at it from seven to nine years now.
There is not the tools to deal with the outbreaks on the scale that
the state has experienced yet.
Number 1527
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated, in response to Representative
Green's question, when a beetle attacks a tree no nutrients can
travel up it. A prevention method is to keep them well watered and
healthy enough to pitch out the pest when it hits. A spray is
limited because it requires spraying the bottom of the tree. The
state is forced with a natural occurrence, but it needs to decide
what to do with the affected trees.
Number 1627
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated is seems ironic that people can be sent
to the moon, but an insect can beat us. It is ironic that the
federal government says do not log to prevent mill closures in
Southeast, and then stands by idling when the spruce bark beetle is
ruining the forests. A systemic bug killer should be able to be
done on the trees.
Number 1708
MR. NICOLLS stated he knows of two instances in southern Ontario
and northern Minnesota where there was an epidemic. Most of the
sites were converted to a low-value hardwood aspen and birch. It
is taking a whole cycle to evolve to what it was before the
epidemic. In another instance of a disease it went to grass and
very slowly became encroached by the conifers and started back.
Number 1770
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated from his observation, as a resident of
the Kenai Peninsula, the first thing that comes back are the birch.
Number 1802
MR. NICOLLS stated, depending on what is there, it is a logical
expectation in a lot of places.
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated then eventually spruce as was the case
Mr. Nicolls mentioned.
MR. NICOLLS stated it could be brought back to a spruce forest with
site preparation and artificial planting.
Number 1835
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated it will be an issue for the twenty-
second century legislators.
Number 1905
CLIFF EAMES, Representative, Alaska Center for the Environment,
testified via teleconference in Anchorage. Its membership includes
about 8,000 families. The center opposes HB 284. He has been
following the issue for many years. He noted that the Miller Reach
fire was not affected by the spruce bark beetle. He agrees with
the others who have suggested it is a bad time to take action on
the bill when the task force is just starting to deliberate. A
task force was established several years ago that recommended
deleting quite a few state proposals of large sales in the back
countries and recommended postponing a number of other large sales.
In December of 1996 the Division of Forestry indicated in a report
that the spruce bark beetle epidemic can not be controlled in
Southcentral Alaska. Fire is a great concern for a lot of people,
and it is likely that the task force will focus on the issue. Fire
in the back country is very beneficial ecologically, however. The
state should be focusing on communities, humans, and human
improvements. There can be defensible spaces and provide
assistance to create defensible spaces around homes and businesses.
There can be the prevention of fires from starting. Almost all of
the fires are caused by humans. There can be an adequate
firefighting capabilities to hit fires rapidly. And there can be
prescribed fire to reduce the risks. In terms of economics, the
large fiscal note suggests how uneconomical sales are. A former
state forester said salvage sales do not usually pay for
themselves; they pay for only part of the reforestation cost; and
usually, do not pay for all of the preparation and administration.
In addition, historically, there has not been a large timber
industry on the Kenai Peninsula. Fish and wildlife are important
to lots of Alaskans, but there is no evidence that infestations are
adversely affecting them in their balance. Again, a former state
forester said, "We have not been able to find a wildlife manager
who believes that the spruce bark beetle epidemic will be
detrimental to wildlife in the long-term. Likewise, we have not
been able to find a fisheries biologist who believes that the
epidemic will have a long-term impact on fish habitat or water
quality. Also, the wildlife managers and fisheries biologists we
know are reluctant to say that logging, even if done well, will
have fewer impacts than letting the epidemic run its course."
There has been a lot of talk about reforestation when there might
be some important ecological reasons for the delay in natural
regeneration. He challenged the committee members to find an
ecologist or fish and wildlife biologist who believes that the
infestation is an ecological catastrophe. As far as scenic beauty
is concerned, the changes in the landscape from spruce bark beetle
kills are naturally occurring and will cause a much less visible
impact than timber harvest. Finally, there is really very little
scientific or public support for logging and road building in the
back country. The center urges the committee members to keep the
bill in the committee.
Number 2350
SEAN McGUIRE testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. Look back
three or four years ago to a salvage writer at the federal level.
It was such a disaster that it came to be known as "logging without
logs." It caused huge controversy. It allowed timber operators to
just go in and take what they wanted. There was very little
oversight. It got so bad that timber operators later admitted,
even though they fought for the bill, they wished that it hadn't
happened because it became such a liability.
TAPE 98-34, SIDE A
Number 0000
MR. McGUIRE continued. And that logging would probably be worse
for wildlife and fish. Now, this isn't some environmentalist
saying this, it is the state forester for Alaska. In addition, the
forest before the whites got here was one of the great forests on
the planet. The forest did not have a problem with the spruce bark
beetle before white man came here. The idea that white man is
going to save the forest is kind of a joke. The forest does just
fine without us. Finally, the legislators in Juneau have very
little credibility. They have spent that last 15 years working at
odds with the environment trying to tear it down in many ways. It
does not wash to say that the environment is part of the reason for
the bill.
Number 0195
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON replied he has not heard anybody that has
testified before the committee indicate their political
affiliation.
MR. McGUIRE stated he is basically talking about the members of the
House Resources committee, minus the Democrats. The Republican
party does not have a very good track record for the environment.
That is not disputed among anybody.
Number 0270
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he supports the concept of the bill. For
the record, the Millers Reach fire was not a spruce bark beetle
fire. In fact, stands of hardware were being burnt. The spruce
bark beetle problem is because of the lack of management. Forests
were fine because they were allowed to burn naturally, and by
supressing fires over the years there are over mature trees. The
state should log as much as possible, but the legislators have a
public trust responsibility to make sure that the fish streams are
not harmed in any way. He is concerned that on page 2, line 15 it
could harm them on small tracts and loose important salmon spawning
streams. And on page 2, line 19, he has never seen a requirement
that gives the commissions the authority to waive a chapter and
regulations adopted under a chapter. It is not a good idea to
delegate legislative authority away to a commissioner. Enough is
delegated away as it is.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN made a motion to strike (5) on page 2, lines 19-
21.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN objected.
Number 0479
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated when the paragraph was put in there
was quite a bit of consternation and thinking. In a true salvage
situation the commissioner would be the steward of the land through
the governor, and there might be times when there would be areas
that would need to be waived in terms of bonding, and other
requirements to get critical land into the salvage operation. If
a commissioner started to waive other things that would safeguard
the salmon streams, there would be such human outcry. He is trying
to keep a simple bill that would allow the discretion of the
administration to determine if something should be done in a
certain way or not. He would like to see the subsection stay in
the bill, but the bill is more important than it.
Number 0603
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the commissioner is not the steward of the
land, the legislature is. The governor is not the steward of the
land, the legislature is. The Resources committee has the ultimate
authority and a fiduciary duty to manage the resources held in
trust. He reiterated he is real supportive of the bill, but cannot
support it and vote for it, if it would give the commissioner the
ability to waive a requirement of the chapter. It is a precedent
that should not be started with this legislature.
Number 0664
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the legislature empowers bureaucrats
with far more reaching authority than this when it allows the
commissioner of natural resources to establish royalties on oil and
gas leases.
Number 0698
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN responded yes the legislature does give the
commissioner the ability to negotiate royalties. Generally, it
comes back for legislative approval. Therefore, not complete
authority is delegated. He asked the committee members whether
they have seen a law put on the books that gives the commissioner
the ability to waive a requirement of a chapter.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied emergency reactions to fires when
there is not a competitive bid.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated that is not waiving a whole chapter.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated it is waiving a requirement for a
competitive bid. The subsection is waiving a requirement for
emergency operations in the case of a spruce bark epidemic.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he does not believe that waiving an entire
chapter has been put into statute.
Number 0812
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated (5) provides a waiver of a requirement of
the chapter and regulations if the commissioner finds that the
waiver will substantially contribute to controlling or eliminating
the infestation of disease. Co-Chairman Ogan is concerned that the
bill would give a broad waiver of all provisions in Chapter 17 as
opposed to some element of it. The intent is largely confined to
the applications of those controlling the spruce bark beetle, not
a carte blanche waiver. He does not read it the same way as Co-
Chairman Ogan.
Number 0881
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied he reads it the same way as Co-
Chairman Hudson. If action had been taken in a more timely fashion
in certain areas, the outbreaks could have been prevented or
postponed in very critical areas, according to testimony.
Number 0920
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, if there is not agreement on this, then
the bill should be held over until there is a legal opinion of the
provision. The subsection says "waive a requirement of this
chapter". It would give the commissioner the authority to waive a
requirement of anything in Chapter 17, including forest resources
and practices. He is supportive of the bill; he is not supportive
of undermining the legislature's authority.
Number 0991
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS suggested adding the language, "If the
commissioner finds that the waiver will substantially contribute to
controlling or eliminating the infestation or disease, the
commissioner may waive a requirement in this chapter and
regulations adopted."
Number 1012
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated he is not convinced that Representative
Hodgins' suggestion will work. He suggested inserting the
language, "waive a requirement of this chapter and regulations
related to the control of an infestation under this chapter if the
commissioner finds that the waiver will substantially contribute to
controlling or eliminating the infestation or disease." The
language would restrict a waiver to the subject of the bill.
Number 1063
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN responded he still has concerns that the
legislature is delegating its authority to allow the commissioner
to waive a law as he sees fit. It could ultimately harm fish
streams.
Number 1087
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied it could ultimately save fish
streams. A fire destroys soil that erodes into streams. And, if
there is a destroyed ecosystem in the soil, it will impact the
salmon streams. He understands the concern of Representative Ogan
about giving too much power to a single individual. He would like
to find a solution that they both can live with.
Number 1154
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated the committee has lost its quorum. No
further action can be taken. The motion will remain on the table
until the committee meets again.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1186
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting at 3:05 p.m.
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