Legislature(2023 - 2024)BARNES 124
04/14/2023 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB120 | |
| HB104 | |
| Big Game Commercial Services Board | |
| HB98 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | HB 120 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | HB 104 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| + | HB 98 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
April 14, 2023
1:05 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Tom McKay, Chair
Representative George Rauscher, Vice Chair
Representative Josiah Patkotak
Representative Kevin McCabe
Representative Dan Saddler
Representative Stanley Wright
Representative Jennie Armstrong
Representative Donna Mears
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Maxine Dibert
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 120
"An Act relating to hunting, trapping, and fishing licenses for
certain nonresident postsecondary students; and providing for an
effective date."
- MOVED HB 120 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 104
"An Act relating to expedited timber sales."
- MOVED CSHB 104(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
CONFIRMATION HEARING(S):
Board of Game
Jacob Fletcher - Talkeetna
- CONFIRMATION(S) ADVANCED
Big Game Commercial Services Board
Michael Flores - Soldotna
- CONFIRMATION(S) ADVANCED
HOUSE BILL NO. 98
"An Act relating to state ownership of submerged land underlying
navigable water within the boundaries of and adjacent to federal
areas; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD & HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 120
SHORT TITLE: HUNT/FISH LICENSE FOR NONRESIDENT STUDENT
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) TOMASZEWSKI
03/17/23 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/17/23 (H) RES, FIN
04/03/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
04/03/23 (H) -- MEETING CANCELED --
04/05/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
04/05/23 (H) -- MEETING CANCELED --
04/12/23 (H) FIN REFERRAL REMOVED
04/12/23 (H) BILL REPRINTED
04/12/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
04/12/23 (H) Heard & Held
04/12/23 (H) MINUTE(RES)
04/14/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
BILL: HB 104
SHORT TITLE: EXPEDITED TIMBER SALES
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) CRONK
03/08/23 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/08/23 (H) RES
03/20/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
03/20/23 (H) Heard & Held
03/20/23 (H) MINUTE(RES)
03/24/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
03/24/23 (H) Heard & Held
03/24/23 (H) MINUTE(RES)
04/03/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
04/03/23 (H) -- MEETING CANCELED --
04/14/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
BILL: HB 98
SHORT TITLE: STATE OWNERSHIP OF SUBMERGED LAND
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) SADDLER
03/06/23 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/06/23 (H) JUD, RES
03/29/23 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM GRUENBERG 120
03/29/23 (H) Heard & Held
03/29/23 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
03/31/23 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM GRUENBERG 120
03/31/23 (H) Moved HB 98 Out of Committee
03/31/23 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
04/03/23 (H) JUD RPT 6DP
04/03/23 (H) DP: C.JOHNSON, CARPENTER, EASTMAN,
GRAY, ALLARD, VANCE
04/14/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
WITNESS REGISTER
JOHN ANDERSON, representing self
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 120.
AL BARRETTE, representing self
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 120.
MICHAELA ANDERSON, Staff
Representative Frank Tomaszewski
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: On behalf of Representative Tomaszewski,
prime sponsor, answered questions about HB 120.
ED KING, Staff
Representative Tom McKay
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the hearing on HB 104, reviewed the
changes between versions B and U of the bill on behalf of
Representative McKay, a sponsor of HB 104.
DAVE STANCLIFFE, Staff
Representative Mike Cronk
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the hearing on HB 104, answered
questions about Version U of the bill on behalf of
Representative Cronk, prime sponsor of HB 104.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE CRONK
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the hearing on HB 104, answered
questions as prime sponsor of the bill.
JACOB FLETCHER, Appointee
Board of Game
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
Talkeetna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as appointee to the Board of
Game.
MICHAEL FLORES, Appointee
Big Game Commercial Services Board
Division of Corporations, Business and Professional Licensing
Department of Commerce, Community, and Economic Development
Soldotna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as appointee to the Big Game
Commercial Services Board.
WAYNE KUBAT, Vice President
Alaska Professional Hunters Association
Wasilla, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the confirmation hearing for
appointees to the Board of Game and Big Game Commercial Services
Board, testified in support of Mr. Michael Flores, appointee to
the CSB, and in support of Mr. Jacob Fletcher, appointee to the
BOG.
MARK RICHARDS, Executive Director
Resident Hunters of Alaska
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the confirmation hearing for
appointees to the Board of Game and Big Game Commercial Services
Board, testified RHAK is neutral to Mr. Jacob Fletcher's
appointment to the BOG and that RHAK believes the BOG is
unbalanced in favor of commercial hunting interests.
MARY JACKSON, Staff
Representative Dan Saddler
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the hearing on HB 98, provided the
committee with hard copies of the sectional analysis on behalf
of Representative Saddler, prime sponsor.
BRENT GOODRUM, Deputy Commissioner
Office of the Commissioner
Department of Natural Resources
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of HB 98.
JIM WALKER, Chief
Public Access Assertion & Defense Section
Division of Mining, Land and Water
Department of Natural Resources
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the hearing on HB 98, provided a
PowerPoint presentation titled "State Ownership of Submerged
Lands House Resources HB 98," dated 4/14/23.
ACTION NARRATIVE
1:05:58 PM
CHAIR TOM MCKAY called the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting to order at 1:05 p.m. Representatives Armstrong,
McCabe, Rauscher, Saddler, and McKay were present at the call to
order. Representatives Patkotak, Mears, and Wright arrived as
the meeting was in progress.
HB 120-HUNT/FISH LICENSE FOR NONRESIDENT STUDENT
1:06:45 PM
CHAIR MCKAY announced that the first order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 120, "An Act relating to hunting, trapping, and
fishing licenses for certain nonresident postsecondary students;
and providing for an effective date."
1:06:52 PM
CHAIR MCKAY opened public testimony on HB 120.
1:07:28 PM
JOHN ANDERSON, representing self, testified in support of HB
120. He related that 10 years ago as a student at the
University of Alaska, Fairbanks (UAF), he and other students in
his fraternity went on a fishing trip, but several [non-
resident] students couldn't go because they couldn't afford the
cost of a one-day or three-day fishing license. He said HB 120
could help build stronger organizations and links to Alaska
regardless of whether the students stay in or leave Alaska. If
the students stay, he added, it builds Alaska's workforce and
economy.
1:10:52 PM
AL BARRETTE, representing self, testified in support of HB 120.
He qualified that he is providing his own opinion, not that of
the Board of Game, of which he is a member. He said
[nonresident students] spend a lot of time in Alaska and help
fund the state's education system, and allowing them to
participate in hunting, trapping, and fishing at a resident fee
will benefit the students and the state. He related that the
State of Alaska and non-governmental organizations in Alaska are
participating in a national program called Recruitment,
Retainment, and Reactivate; he submitted that HB 120 would help
promote hunting, fishing, and trapping within Alaska.
1:12:31 PM
CHAIR MCKAY closed public testimony on HB 120 after ascertaining
that no one else wished to testify.
1:12:51 PM
MICHAELA ANDERSON, Staff, Representative Frank Tomaszewski,
Alaska State Legislature, on behalf of Representative
Tomaszewski, prime sponsor, answered questions about HB 120 that
were asked at the [bill's previous hearing]. She explained that
someone falling below the poverty line already gets a well
reduced fee on their license. However, she continued, someone
dependent on their parents and not falling under low income is
when the $5 and free license exemption would activate.
Regarding large game hunting, she advised that HB 120 would not
make someone a resident; the bill deals strictly with licenses
and does not deal with tags, stamps, or other regulations. She
further advised that for large game muzzle loading the student
would still have to go through muzzle loading training and for
bear hunting the student would have to be guided. Ms. Anderson
pointed out that these students would not qualify for dipnetting
because they aren't a resident. She specified that these
students would fall under the same salvage laws as any resident
or nonresident hunter who isn't a student, meaning nonresident
students would have to pack out and utilize any animal that they
shoot.
1:14:44 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ARMSTRONG asked if the sponsor had considered
nonresident high school exchange students since the license age
is 16 and Alaska receives numerous exchange students.
MS. ANDERSON replied that there was no discussion of that, but
the sponsor would like to have that conversation. She added
that [applicants for this exemption] would have to sign a
certificate certifying they are a student. If stopped by law
enforcement, she continued, the person would have to go through
the route of proving they are a student or dealing with the
consequences [if they aren't a student].
REPRESENTATIVE TOMASZEWSKI stated he is willing to look at the
representative's suggestion before HB 120 goes to the floor.
REPRESENTATIVE ARMSTRONG said she will schedule a meeting with
the sponsor.
1:16:18 PM
The committee took a brief at-ease.
1:16:57 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SADDLER inquired about the number of full-time
and part-time students in the university system. He said he is
wondering how extending this nonresident postsecondary student
license would affect the demand on Alaska's fish and game
resources.
REPRESENTATIVE TOMASZEWSKI responded that Anchorage has about
1,200 and Fairbanks about 700 enrolled nonresident full-time
students. Responding further, he said he doesn't have the
number of part-time nonresident students.
MS. ANDERSON stated she will get those numbers from the
university and provide them to the committee.
1:18:16 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER moved to report HB 120 out of committee
with individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal
notes. There being no objection, HB 120 was moved out of the
House Resources Standing Committee.
1:18:47 PM
The committee took an at-ease from 1:18 p.m. to 1:21 p.m.
HB 104-EXPEDITED TIMBER SALES
1:21:56 PM
CHAIR MCKAY announced that the next order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 104, "An Act relating to expedited timber sales."
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER moved to adopt the proposed committee
substitute (CS) for HB 104, Version 33-LS0474\U, Bullard,
4/12/23, as the working document.
CHAIR MCKAY objected for purposes of discussion.
1:23:05 PM
ED KING, Staff, Representative Tom McKay, Alaska State
Legislature, reviewed the changes between versions B and U of HB
104 on behalf of Representative McKay, a sponsor of the bill.
He explained that Version U makes a few additions to the bill to
clarify the distinction between expedited timber sales and the
salvage sales already in existing law. He spoke from the
document in the committee packet titled "House Bill 104,
Expedited Timber Sales, Summary of Changes from Version B to U,"
which read as follows [original punctuation provided with some
formatting changes]:
Change 1: A new bill section 2 was added to exempt
salvage sales from the best interest finding
requirement. Note: public notice is still required per
the state constitution (Art. 8, Sec. 10).
(Page 1, line 10 through page 6, line 4)
Change 2: New bill sections 4 and 5 were added to
exempt salvage sales and expedited sales from the
forest land use plan and five-year sale schedule
requirements.
(Page 6, lines 9 - 22)
Change 3: A new bill section 6 was added to create a
new subsection under AS 38.05.115 (terms and
conditions of sales) which lengthens the default term
for timber sales subject to a forest land use plan to
25 years unless a shorter term is requested or
required.
(Page 6, line 23 - 30)
Change 4: New bill sections 7 and 8 were added to
clarify the difference between salvage sales and
expedited timber sales.
(Page 6, line 31 through page 7, line 19)
Change 5: A new bill section 9 was added to encourage
more high-value wood production in Alaska.
(Page 7, line 20 through page 8, line 7)
Change 6: The language from bill section 3 of version
B (now bill section 10) was adjusted by:
1. Changing the terms and conditions to better reflect
the sponsor's intent (page 8, lines 13 - 19)
2. Adding prevention of habitat degradation as a
condition in which an expedited timber sale may occur
(page 8, lines 25 - 26)
3. Including language to make clear that the new
provisions my [sic] not be used to reduce the sale of
higher quality timber (page 9, lines 3 4)
Change 7: Adds an immediate effective date to avoid
the loss of this summer season (page 9, line 10)
MR. KING pointed out that Change 1 itself is located on page 4,
lines 29-30, and the rest of the provisions in the new Section 2
are existing law. Regarding Change 4, he clarified that salvage
sales in general refer to timber that has already been killed by
beetles or fire, whereas expedited timber sales are preemptive
measures for fire risk or infestation spread. Mr. King noted
that Change 5 is what would allow for the seven-year sales for
negotiated sale for high-value wood, a request by some members
of the industry to support financing efforts. He elaborated
that Change 6 is recognizing that expedited timber sales are
preventing fire and infestation spread and thereby saving the
[state] money, so the price collected from those timber sales
should reflect the savings to the state.
1:26:42 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE drew attention to page 7, line 26, and
asked why seven [years] was chosen instead of something greater.
He said loggers are having a horrible time getting financing for
equipment because the timber sale is seven years but the loan on
a piece of equipment is 30 years.
MR. KING responded by drawing attention to page 6, lines 23-30.
He noted that line 25 states that the period of a contract for
timber sales is 25 years unless [a shorter period] is requested
or required by the commissioner. He deferred to Mr. Stancliffe
to explain AS 38.05.123, which is the seven-year sale provision
that is being spoken to by Representative McCabe.
1:27:43 PM
DAVE STANCLIFFE, Staff, Representative Mike Cronk, Alaska State
Legislature, He stated that in working with the Department of
Law, the administration, the Division of Forestry, Alaska Forest
Association, and small-time operators, seven years was set as a
minimum because banks turn their heads at anything less than
that.
1:28:16 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ARMSTRONG inquired about how the decision would
be made for expedited timber sales due to threat of fire, for
example whether the decision is made during active fires and [if
not], how it is known what could possibly become burnt.
MR. KING deferred to the department to provide an answer.
MR. STANCLIFFE answered that [the prime sponsor] lives in an
area where timber becomes either boards and cabin logs, or the
timber gets burned. He said mature timber stands that are fire
prone would become under the expedited classification, thereby
feeding an enterprise that needs the timber and protecting
against fires for public safety.
1:30:13 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER asked whether the prime sponsor supports
the proposed CS.
1:30:47 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE CRONK, Alaska State Legislature, as prime
sponsor of HB 104, confirmed he supports Version U.
1:31:10 PM
CHAIR MCKAY removed his objection to the adoption of Version U,
the proposed CS for HB 104, as the working document. There
being no further objection, Version U was before the committee.
1:31:49 PM
1:31:54 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER moved to report the proposed CS, Version
33-LS0474\U, Bullard, 4/12/23, out of committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. There being
no objection, CSHB 104(RES) was reported out of the House
Resources Standing Committee.
1:32:33 PM
The committee took an at-ease from 1:32 p.m. to 1:34 p.m.
^CONFIRMATION HEARING(S):
CONFIRMATION HEARING(S):
^BOARD OF GAME
BOARD OF GAME
^BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD
BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD
1:34:25 PM
CHAIR MCKAY announced that the final order of business would be
consideration of the appointees to the Board of Game (BOG) and
the Big Game Commercial Services Board (CSB).
1:35:29 PM
The committee took an at-ease from 1:35 p.m. to 1:36 p.m.
1:36:05 PM
CHAIR MCKAY invited Mr. Jacob Fletcher, appointee to the Board
of Game, to provide his statement.
1:37:17 PM
JACOB FLETCHER, Appointee, Board of Game (BOG), Alaska
Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), appointee to the Board of
Game (BOG), stated he is up for reappointment to the board,
having previously served one term. He said outlined his various
sources of employment: owner of a big game guiding business
that predominantly operates on Kodiak Island in the spring and
fall, holder of a federal guide use area on the Kenai National
Wildlife Refuge, jet boat operator during the summer months on
the Susitna and Talkeetna rivers for Mahay's Jet Boat Adventures
of Talkeetna, snowmachine operator for a snowmachine tourism
business, and occasional guide and trainer at Dallas Seavey's
kennel in Talkeetna. He noted that as a packer, an assistant,
and a registered guide for over 20 years, he is familiar with
the way that game regulations are implemented in the field. He
added that he will continue to look out for Alaska's wild game
and residents.
1:39:31 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE requested Mr. Fletcher's thoughts on
allowing disabled veterans and older people to use motorized or
electric bicycles in nonmotorized hunt areas. He further asked
whether the Board of Game would consider suggesting certain
nonmotorized areas for this type of use.
MR. FLETCHER replied that his position is that absolutely the
Board of Game would be interested in that. He related that
occasionally disabled people testify at BOG meetings, and
recently the BOG approved a proposed moose hunt for disabled
folks in Kincaid Park in Anchorage.
1:41:28 PM
REPRESENTATIVE PATKOTAK related that various [caribou] herds are
dwindling in Game Management Units (GMU) 23, 26A, 26B, and 26C,
and that the advisory committee [has recommended] scaling back
the take for the subsistence preference. He requested Mr.
Fletcher's opinion on whether the commercial take should also be
scaled back.
MR. FLETCHER responded that abundant animals are easy to manage,
whereas management of animals that are dwindling is difficult.
He said he relies on the local input and the advisory committees
work hard. He stated that whenever animals are dwindling,
commercial use must also get scaled back.
1:44:19 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER related that as the state has begun to
create hunts where only local clientele can apply for the hunt,
he has received letters saying that Alaska's game is for
everybody and there should be an equal opportunity for everyone
to participate. He requested Mr. Fletcher's opinion on this
issue. In response to Mr. Fletcher, Representative Rauscher
confirmed he is talking about the community harvest hunt.
MR. FLETCHER answered that after the different community harvest
hunts were implemented, not all user groups were 100 percent
satisfied. He said he hopes the user groups will come together
during the process of refining those hunts to make them more
agreeable to all user groups.
CHAIR MCKAY invited Michael Flores, appointee to the Big Game
Commercial Services Board (BGCSB), to provide his statement.
1:46:24 PM
MICHAEL FLORES, Appointee, Big Game Commercial Services Board
(CSB), Division of Corporations, Business and Professional
Licensing, Department of Commerce, Community, and Economic
Development, appointee to the Big Game Commercial Services Board
(CSB), stated he is currently on this board as a marine
transporter. He said he is a bush pilot, big game guide, marine
transporter, fishing guide, a delegate to the International
Pacific Halibut Commission, and a member of the governor's
Alaska Bycatch Review Task Force. He said the Commercial
Service Board has dealt with a lot of changes. He related that
at last month's Board of Game meeting the Afognak Native
Corporation spoke about being overrun with transporters, so the
Commercial Services Board is looking into that. He further
related that the Commercial Services Board is considering
looking into whether there are too many transporters in Alaska
or whether it is the public trying to fill their freezers for
the winter.
CHAIR MCKAY opened public testimony on the appointees to the
Board of Game and the Big Game Commercial Services Board.
1:48:52 PM
REPRESENTATIVE PATKOTAK reiterated that the fish and game
advisory committee has forwarded recommendations to scale back
the subsistence take for the declining [caribou] herds in GMUs
23, 26A, 26B, and 26C, which is his district. He requested Mr.
Flores's opinion on whether the commercial take should also be
scaled back.
MR. FLORES replied that it appears the Kodiak Fish and Game
Advisory Committee and the villagers think there is a problem
with too much harvest. As for marine transporters, he said a
lot of animals are harvested off the beach and that this year
the Board of Game voted to reduce the nonresident harvest to one
buck only while keeping the harvest limit for locals at three
for Kodiak. He related that the Commercial Services Board saw
22 new transporters sign up for licenses last year and 12 have
signed up so far this year. He noted that there were 27 fewer
registered guides last year, probably due to closing of the
areas referred to by Representative Patkotak. He pointed out
that there is no limit on transporters but there is on guides
because guides must test to become licensed in Alaska whereas
transporters do not.
1:51:55 PM
WAYNE KUBAT, Vice President, Alaska Professional Hunters
Association (APHA), testified in support of the reappointment of
Mr. Michael Flores to the Big Game Commercial Services Board
(CSB). He said Mr. Flores has been an engaged member of the
board, brings unique experiences to the board process, has been
accessible to the public, and is willing to listen to all sides
of an issue so he can make the best decision possible.
1:53:06 PM
MARK RICHARDS, Executive Director, Resident Hunters of Alaska
(RHAK), related that RHAK works on prioritizing Alaska resident
hunter opportunities. He stated that RHAK has decided to remain
neutral to Mr. Jacob Fletcher's appointment to the Board of
Game. He further stated that RHAK's position continues to be
that the Board of Game's current makeup is unbalanced in favor
of commercial hunting interests. He pointed out that Mr.
Fletcher is currently one of the five licensed guides and one
retired guide on the seven-member board and if reappointed Mr.
Fletcher will be one of four guides on the seven-member board.
For perspective, he specified that less than one percent of the
more than 100,000 Alaska residents who purchase a hunting
license each year are licensed guides. He noted that while Mr.
Fletcher's answer to Representative Patkotak's question was that
commercial hunting should be scaled back, Mr. Fletcher voted
against RHAK's proposal to the Board of Game to limit
nonresident sheep hunters in GMU 19C, which has a declining
sheep population.
1:56:59 PM
MR. KUBAT resumed his testimony. He stated that the APHA
supports reappointment of Mr. Jacob Fletcher to the Board of
Game. He said Mr. Fletcher lives full time in rural Alaska and
knows firsthand of the importance of Alaska's wildlife resources
to rural communities. He added that Mr. Fletcher brings unique
experiences from across the state to the board process, is
accessible to the public, and is willing to listen to all sides
of an issue and make the best decision he can.
1:58:06 PM
CHAIR MCKAY asked Mr. Fletcher whether he will consider the need
for balance between all users of wildlife in Alaska.
1:58:43 PM
MR. FLETCHER replied yes. In further response to Chair McKay,
he stated that [Representative Patkotak's] question was about
caribou and Mr. Richards' testimony was about sheep. He stated
he fully believes in the full-curl rule of management, meaning a
ram that is full curl or eight years old, is a ram that can be
taken, and a harvestable surplus will remain on the hill each
year. He offered his belief that [in the area referenced by Mr.
Richardson] only one sheep has been taken in the winter
subsistence hunt in a long time. He added that in his opinion
it is two different subjects.
1:59:57 PM
CHAIR MCKAY stated that in accordance with AS 39.05.080, the
House Resources Standing Committee held a hearing on Michael
Flores and Jacob Fletcher. Signing the committee report
testifies to the member's participation in this hearing and does
not reflect the intent of any member to vote for or against the
confirmation during joint session.
2:00:27 PM
The committee took an at-ease from 2:00 p.m. to 2:03 p.m.
HB 98-STATE OWNERSHIP OF SUBMERGED LAND
2:03:16 PM
CHAIR MCKAY announced that the final order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 98, "An Act relating to state ownership of
submerged land underlying navigable water within the boundaries
of and adjacent to federal areas; and providing for an effective
date."
2:03:54 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SADDLER, prime sponsor of HB 98, introduced the
bill to the committee. He said HB 98 seeks to end the federal
government's decades-long, unjust denial of a fundamental right
of Alaska's statehood: control of navigable waters in Alaska and
the lands beneath them, regardless of whether they are in
federal conservation units or not. He continued to paraphrase
from the document in the committee packet titled "HB 98 Sponsor
Statement," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
The 1959 Statehood Act transferred 105 million acres
of federal land to Alaska. In addition, the U.S.
Constitution and federal law also made the state owner
of navigable waters and the lands beneath them at the
instant of statehood.
Navigable waters are the lakes, rivers and streams
that supported, or could have supported, in-state
travel at the time of Statehood. They provide travel
routes, recreational access, hunting opportunities,
aquatic habitat and more, and represent corridors of
commercial travel critical to Alaska's prosperity. All
other states assumed undisputed control of such lands
and waters inside their borders upon joining the
Union.
Despite their obligation to do so, federal authorities
have dragged their heels in granting Alaska clear
title to its submerged lands. Instead, they've forced
the state to prove the navigability of waterways on a
case-by-case basis at a rate that would take hundreds
of years to conclude.
Enough is enough. HB 98 simply but confidently
declares Alaska's title to the beds of navigable
waters, including those within federal parks, wildlife
refuges, forests and other conservation units, unless
specifically withdrawn before Statehood. It identifies
and enumerates water bodies within federal areas in
which the State has a title interest. And it directs
the Department of Natural Resources to make progress
reports to the Legislature on its continuing effort to
delineate navigable waters in federal areas in Alaska.
The need for this bill is dramatized by the case of
Alaska hunter John Sturgeon, who fought and won two
U.S. Supreme Court decisions clarifying that Alaskans
have the right to use navigable waters inside federal
areas, and that federal regulations do not trump state
ownership, even in conservation units created by the
Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act in
1980.
REPRESENTATIVE SADDLER noted that the Tongass National Forest is
one of those federal forest units withdrawn before statehood.
2:07:03 PM
MARY JACKSON, Staff, Representative Dan Saddler, Alaska State
Legislature, on behalf of Representative Saddler, prime sponsor
of HB 98, pointed out that Section 9 is the detailed list of
waterways and comprises 83 of the bill's 88 pages. She provided
the committee with hard copies of the sectional analysis titled
"HB 98 Sectional Analysis," which read as follows [original
punctuation provided]:
Section 1 Amends uncodified law by adding a new
section to describe the purpose of the bill.
Section 2 Amends AS 38.04.062(a) to Page 2, line 1,
revises the phrase "at the time" to become "on the
date", and adds the clause ', including submerged land
underlying navigable water listed in AS in AS
38.04.063 that is within the boundaries of and
adjacent to federal areas.' Provides clarity that the
State owns all submerged lands under navigable from
the date of statehood, including lands within the
boundaries of sand adjacent to federal lands. AS
38.04.062(a) declares that 'the state owns all
submerged land underlying navigable water to which
title passed to the state at the time the state
achieved statehood under the equal footing doctrine or
43 U.S.C. 1301 - 1315 (Submerged Lands Act of 1953).'
Section 3 Amends AS 38.04.062(d) by (Page 2, line
10), revising the phrase "at the time" to become "on
the date", and adds the following sentence: 'The
commissioner shall conduct ongoing research to
identify submerged land underlying navigable water
within the boundaries of and adjacent to federal areas
to determine state title to corresponding submerged
land underlying navigable water.'
Section 4 amends AS 38.04.062(c) by revising the
phrase "at the time" to become "on the date".
Section 5 amends AS 38.04.062(d) by referencing the
list of navigable waters described fully in new AS
38.04.063 and revises the phrase "at the time" to
become "on the date".
Section 6 - Amends AS 38.04.062(e) by inserting the
clause '(b) or (c) of (new section 3 and 4).'
Subsection (e) operates as a disclaimer for
determinations of navigability by the DNR
commissioner, providing that they do not create an
interest in real property, may not be recorded, and do
not constitute final agency action. Because the
proposed edits to AS 38.04.062 create new obligations
for the DNR commissioner concerning navigable waters
in SA HB 98 3/15/23: maj federal areas, which may
include navigability determinations made because of
administrative or judicial proceedings, '(b) or (c)
of' was inserted before 'this section' to distinguish
the commissioner's non-binding determinations from
determinations that have binding effect.
Section 7 amends by revising the phrase "at the
time" to become "on the date".
Section 8 - Adds new subsections (h) - (j) to AS
38.04.062 that creates an obligation on DNR to report
annually to the legislature. Subsection (h) requires
the commissioner to submit an annual report to the
legislature by the first day of each regular session
identifying navigable waters within the boundaries of
and adjacent to federal areas that are not listed in
AS 38.04.063(b) and any modifications or changes to
navigable waters within the boundaries of and adjacent
to federal areas that have been previously identified
and listed in AS 38.04.063(b) Subsection (i) provides
that the commissioner's failure to include or identify
navigable waters in accordance with the requirements
of AS 38.04.062 does not relinquish any state right in
the submerged lands underlying those navigable waters.
Subsection (i) is intended to preserve the state's
rights to submerged lands. Subsection (j) provides
that a navigability determination of the commissioner
is based on evidence consistent with the definition of
'navigable water' at AS 38.04.062(g) and consideration
of the factors listed in AS 38.04.062(j)(1-4).
Section 9 - Amends AS 38.04 by adding a new section AS
38.04.063 concerning state ownership of submerged
within federal areas. This section makes clear that
since statehood, that the State owns, claims,
occupies, possesses, manages, and controls all
submerged lands underlying navigable waters listed in
(b) of this new section of statute, except as provided
under AS 38.04.062(f). It further identifies navigable
waterbodies that are currently known within the
boundaries of and adjacent to federal areas. This
section was drafted to model existing AS 19.30.400
which codifies state claims of rights-of-way granted
under former 43 U.S.C. 932 (Revised Statute 2477).
Page 4 to page 87.
Section 10 - Amends AS 38.04.910 by adding new
paragraphs for definitions, renumbering existing
definitions, and adding proposed definitions for
'federal areas,' 'mean high water,' 'mean high water
line,' 'ordinary high water mark,' and 'submerged
land.'
Section 11 repeals existing 38.04.06(g) which is
current definition.
Section 12 - Amends the uncodified law of the state to
add a new section providing that Section 9 of the bill
is retroactive to January 3, 1959. This bill will
require a special vote of two-thirds of the members of
each house because the proposed retroactive effective
date for this section varies from the standard
language providing for an effective date 90 days after
enactment.
Section 13 - Provides for an immediate effective date
under AS 01.10.070(c).
2:08:38 PM
BRENT GOODRUM, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner,
Department of Natural Resources (DNR), testified in favor of HB
98. He explained that oftentimes the federal government does
not take a position on the ownership of submerged lands and does
not say that it explicitly has ownership interest, thereby
denying the State of Alaska the ability to bring a quiet title
action in federal court because such an action requires a case
or controversy. He said HB 98 would flip the script by
codifying the navigable water bodies in federal areas as
navigable-in-fact for title purposes. The federal government,
he continued, would be put on formal notice that the State of
Alaska owns these submerged lands and intends to manage these
water bodies even though they flow through post-statehood
federal conservation system units (CSUs). The burden would then
be on the federal government, he specified, to gather data and
to find resolution if it disagrees with the state's position.
Federal CSU enforcement officers, he added, wouldn't be to carry
out federal action or enforcement by saying that an affirmative
decision or determination hasn't been made. He referenced two
unanimous US Supreme Court decisions on that point in the matter
of Sturgeon v. Frost.
MR. GOODRUM pointed out that the state has waited 64 years for
federal authorities to determine the navigability of the state's
water bodies. He said the current status quo of uncertainty and
ambiguity of ownership, management, and control of the state's
navigable water bodies is not in the state's or anyone's best
interest. The time is now for the State of Alaska to flip the
script, he opined, and to decisively identify and codify the
state's navigable rivers and lakes.
2:12:00 PM
The committee took a brief at-ease to deal with sound system
technicalities.
2:12:49 PM
REPRESENTATIVE PATKOTAK inquired about the administration's
intended end consequence for vessel traffic through navigable
waters and the potential for political subdivisions of the State
of Alaska to take some degree of permitting authority for access
to navigable waters.
MR. GOODRUM related the state's belief that under the equal
footing doctrine, all navigable waters within the state
rightfully vested with the state as of 1959, but to date the
federal government hasn't acknowledged the state's ownership
rights. Ownership rights, he explained, give the state the
ability to manage the resources beneath those submerged lands as
well as the activity above them regarding transportation. He
related that when Mr. Sturgeon was using his hovercraft on the
Nation River, a river that had already been determined navigable
in a federal court, Mr. Sturgeon believed he was on state land
and therefore state regulations applied as opposed to US
National Park Service regulations that prohibited hovercraft
from operating within [national] parks. Mr. Goodrum further
related that the water body Mr. Sturgeon was on was an inholding
within a [national] park.
REPRESENTATIVE PATKOTAK asked whether the intent with passage of
HB 98 is that subdivisions like a municipality or borough can
assume the authority that the state is assuming if it's within
their first-class status or not.
MR. GOODRUM responded that he believes the intent of HB 98 is to
verify that the State of Alaska is the rightful entity, and the
state would be the one determining what types of access would be
appropriate on those water bodies.
2:16:10 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE requested the definition of "navigable
waters" for the purposes of what HB 98 would do.
MR. GOODRUM answered that court rulings have defined navigable
water as those on which customary and ordinary vessels [could
navigate] for travel, trade travel, or commerce within the state
as of statehood. He deferred to Mr. Jim Walker to provide
further definition.
MR. GOODRUM, in further response to Representative McCabe,
confirmed that the crux of HB 98 is to expedite the ability to
declare a body of water navigable so that everyone knows whose
water it is and there isn't another court case like that of Mr.
Sturgeon's.
2:18:53 PM
JIM WALKER, Chief, Public Access Assertion & Defense Section
(PAAD), Division of Mining, Land and Water (DMLW), Department of
Natural Resources (DNR), provided a PowerPoint presentation
titled "State Ownership of Submerged Lands House Resources HB
98," dated 4/14/23. He said he would like to phrase the issue
of why these navigable waters are so important. He addressed
slide 2, "The Navigable Waters Issue," which read as follows
[original punctuation provided]:
• Alaska holds an estimated 800,000 miles of navigable
rivers
• Alaska holds an estimated 30 million acres of
navigable lakes
• Alaska owns the submerged lands beneath every
navigable-in-fact river and lake, and beneath
tidally influenced waters in the state, unless a
valid pre-statehood withdrawal EXPLICITLY defeats
state title
• In Federal Conservation System Unit areas created in
Alaska post-statehood, the submerged lands beneath
navigable-in-fact and tidally influenced waters are
State-owned lands
MR. WALKER maintained that in most federal areas it is the State
of Alaska, not the federal government, that owns the submerged
lands under navigable waters and tidally influenced waters. He
spoke to slide 3, "Federal Areas Where the State of Alaska Owns
Submerged Lands," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
• National Park Service: Noatak National Preserve
(NPr), Kobuk Valley National Park (NP), Bering Land
Bridge NPr, Denali National Park and Preserve (NPP)
(ANILCA additions), Wrangell-St. Elias NPP, Glacier
Bay NPP, Katmai NPP, Kenai Fjords NP, Gates of the
Arctic NPP, Lake Clark NPP, Yukon-Charley Rivers
NPr, etc.
• U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: Becharof National
Wildlife Refuge (NWR), Innoko NWR, Izembek NWR,
Kanuti NWR, Kenai NWR, Kodiak NWR, Koyukuk NWR,
Nowitna NWR, Selawik NWR, Tetlin NWR, Togiak NWR,
Yukon Delta NWR, Yukon Flats NWR, etc.
• U.S. Forest Service: Tongass National Forest,
Chugach National Forest
• Bureau of Land Management: Beaver Creek Wild and
Scenic River (WSR), Birch Creek WSR, Fortymile River
WSR, Gulkana River WSR, Unalakleet River WSR, Delta
River WSR, etc.
2:22:53 PM
MR. WALKER discussed slide 4, "Status of Efforts to Clear Title
1959 to Present," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
The federal government acknowledges Alaska's clear
title to its submerged lands beneath navigable-in-fact
and tidally influenced rivers and lakes in only:
• 9 percent of 800,000 river miles of submerged
lands under state-owned rivers
• 16 percent of 30,000,000 acres of submerged lands
under state-owned lakes
MR. WALKER, in reference to the importance of state ownership,
said it will take hundreds of years at this rate [for the
federal government to acknowledge the State of Alaska's
ownership]. He spoke to slide 5, "Sturgeon vs. Frost 136 S. Ct.
1061 (2016) & 139 S. Ct. 1066 (2019)," which read as follows
[original punctuation provided]:
U.S. Supreme Court rules unanimously: federal
regulations do not supersede SOA ownership and
management of navigable waters in ANILCA CSUs
MR. WALKER addressed the bubble chart on slide 6, "Statehood
Defense of Navigable Waters Involves Many Interrelated
Assertions of State Ownership and Authority." He related that
DNR and the Department of Law (DOL) are working together
attempting to fulfill the promises of statehood, which include
the equal footing doctrine and other federal law that say the
state owns these submerged lands. He specified that the state
has intensified [quiet title] litigation against federal
authorities and has intensified management action and state
mapping of navigable waters. He submitted that legislatively
codifying state ownership of submerged lands in federal lands is
key to expediting state ownership.
2:25:51 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER inquired about who currently owns the
submerged lands under man-made lakes or ponds.
MR. WALKER replied that free-flowing water impounded to create a
pond or lake is never owned privately, the water is owned by the
people of Alaska pursuant to the public trust doctrine.
However, he continued, when impounding water and creating a
larger footprint of submerged land, that submerged land doesn't
necessarily belong to the State of Alaska. The water itself
belongs to the public, he advised, but whether the submerged
land is in public or private ownership is going to depend on
case specific information.
2:27:41 PM
MR. WALKER resumed DNR's presentation for HB 98. He spoke to
slide 7, "Proposed Codification Legislation Overview," which
read as follows [original punctuation provided]:
1. Codifies State of Alaska (SOA) ownership, management
and control of navigable waters and submerged lands
within federal areas not covered by a valid pre-
statehood withdrawal explicitly defeating state
title
2. Lists specific navigable waters and submerged lands
in federal areas statewide belonging to SOA
3. Enshrines foundational elements of relevant caselaw
to guide in navigability determinations
4. Establishes annual reporting requirement to
legislature
MR. WALKER discussed slide 8, "Proposed Codification
Legislation," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
1. Codifies SOA ownership, management and control of
navigable waters and submerged lands within federal
areas not covered by a valid pre-statehood
withdrawal explicitly defeating state title
• Underscore state ownership, management and
control of lands owned by the state since
statehood
• Clarify and educate: Clearly enumerates the
extent of state management authority within
federal boundaries
• Increases public understanding and aids in
management
• Correlates with publicly maintained records and
maps
• Reflect reality: Accurately depicts land
ownership and state boundaries with ongoing
quality control
MR. WALKER expounded that the first phase codifying the
state's ownership clarifies for the public, federal agencies,
and state adjudicators as to exactly what the state owns. This
educational aspect of the legislation, he said, will make the
job easier and more efficient for the state's adjudicators for
permit applications and will clarify in the public's mind
whether a person needs to apply to the state for a permit or
whether it falls within federal jurisdiction. This bill, he
added, will reflect reality on what is navigable within federal
areas and plants the state's flag onto state-owned lands.
2:30:39 PM
Mr. Walker paraphrased from slide 9, "Proposed Codification
Legislation," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
2. Lists specific navigable waters and submerged lands
in federal areas statewide belonging to SOA
• First phase: All NPS and USFS areas statewide
plus Tetlin National Wildlife Refuge
• Second phase: Remaining USFWS refuges
• Third phase: All BLM lands
• Fourth phase: Ongoing process of clarification,
modification and amendment
Framework for proposed statute is based upon RS 2477
Right-of-Way codification project in 1990s [AS
19.30.400].
MR. WALKER elaborated that in the second phase, the list of
specific navigable rivers will become longer if HB 98 is passed.
He related that five members of his team have been studying
aerial imagery, prior navigability reports prepared by federal
authorities, and looking at historical records of usage to
assess where the navigable waters are within federal areas. So
far, he said, the team has completed its studies of National
Park Service (NPS) and US Forest Service (USFS) areas, and one
US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) refuge. If the bill is
passed, he continued, [PAAD] will hopefully have concluded its
work on USFWS refuges and will come before the committee next
session to ask for the addition of the navigable rivers found in
those refuges. Mr. Walker stated his hope that the following
year [PAAD] would again come before the committee to ask for the
addition of the navigable waters and tidally influenced waters
within US Bureau of Land Management (BLM) areas statewide.
Afterwards, he specified, DNR would have ongoing responsibility
to come back to the legislature with corrections and updates to
the list within statute. He added that DNR would maintain an
online digital map that uses the bill's proposed framework which
is based upon RS 2477 right-of-way so the public and agencies
would be able to see exactly what the state owns.
2:34:08 PM
MR. WALKER displayed slide 10, "State-Owned Navigable Waters
Federally-Acknowledged to Date," a map of rivers and federal
areas in Alaska. He explained that the rivers shown in blue
represent places where there is a grievance, and the federal
government has acknowledged state ownership. The rivers
depicted in pink represent the rivers for which the federal
government has yet to decide, he further explained, so until
such time as it appoints a determination the federal government
is continuing to act like these rivers are not navigable.
2:37:06 PM
MR. WALKER addressed the map on slide 11, "State-owned Navigable
Waters after proposed codification." He explained that the map
depicts [all the navigable waters] currently included within the
[proposed] statute, such that many of the pink areas have become
blue. He said [PAAD] undertook its own navigability assessments
by applying the standards in federal law to determine which
waters are truly navigable-in-fact and tidally influenced.
MR. WALKER proceeded to the map on slide 12, "Noatak and Kobuk
Valley National Parks Federally-Acknowledged Navigable Waters."
The federal government, he noted, has acknowledged state
ownership of the Kobuk River [shown in blue] as it runs through
Kobuk Valley National Park (shown in green). The federal
government, he continued, has also acknowledged partial state
ownership of the Noatak River [shown in blue and purple] as it
runs the Noatak National Preserve (shown in tan). He drew
attention to the confluence of the Noatak and Aniuk rivers,
shown in [purple], and advised that the federal government says
this area is not navigable despite being approximately 300 feet
wide and flowing at a rate of over 3,000 cubic feet per second.
He said the State of Alaska will file litigation in this regard
later this year or in early 2024.
2:38:52 PM
MR. WALKER specified that HB 98 looks at the waters depicted in
pink on the map and which [PAAD] will assess [for navigability].
He moved to slide 13, "Noatak and Kobuk Valley National Parks
Navigable Waters After Codification," and said that under HB 98
each of the waters depicted in blue would be owned, managed, and
controlled by the State of Alaska.
CHAIR MCKAY remarked that that is a stunning difference.
MR. WALKER reviewed slide 14, "Proposed Codification
Legislation," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided with some formatting changes]:
3. Enshrines foundational elements of relevant caselaw
to guide in navigability determinations
Susceptibility criteria to guide DNR in making
navigability determinations includes, but is not
limited to:
o Watercraft Type: Round raft, Canoe, Jon boat, Jet
1
boat
o Susceptibility: Documented modern day use is
2
sufficient
o Navigability doesn't require a clear channel,
two-way traffic, or historical evidence if the
3
river is susceptible to navigation
1
Alaska v. Ahtna, Inc., 891 F. 2d 1401 (9th Cir. 1989)
(Gulkana River)
2
Alaska v. United States, Case No. 3:12-cv-00114-SLG
(D. Alaska 2016) (Mosquito Fork (Fortymile) River)
3
PPL Montana, LLC v. Montana, 132 S. Ct. 1215 (2012);
Utah v. United States, 403 U.S. 9 (1971); United
States v. Utah, 283 U.S. 64 (1931)
2:40:50 PM
MR. WALKER paraphrased from slide 15, "Proposed Codification
Legislation," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
1. Enshrines foundational elements of relevant caselaw
to guide in navigability determinations
• Section Ten:
o Define geographical scope of legislation
square4 Post-statehood federal area
o Define key navigability terms for purposes of
legislation including
square4 Mean high water
square4 Mean high water line
square4 Navigable water
square4 Ordinary high-water mark
square4 Submerged land
MR. WALKER referenced Representative Patkotak's earlier question
and said HB 98 specifically only covers federally owned lands
managed by federal authorities. The bill, he added, does not
address Native corporation lands or private property in any way.
MR. WALKER addressed slide 16, "Proposed Codification
Legislation," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
4. Establishes annual reporting requirement to
legislature
Charges DNR with responsibility to conduct ongoing
navigability research to determine state title to
submerged lands within relevant federal areas
• Ensures non-exhaustive codified list best reflects
reality
o Ensures public facing document is accurate
• Further refinement and fine tuning as our quiet
title litigation continues
• Provides leadership to federal authorities and a
path forward to settle ambiguity so that land
management benefiting the public will follow
MR. WALKER concluded his PowerPoint presentation with slide 17,
"Proposed Legislation," which read as follows [original
punctuation provided]:
Alaska's ownership of Submerged Lands beneath
navigable-in-fact and tidally influenced rivers and
lakes is one of the fundamental promises of Statehood.
It's been 64 years. It is time for the Federal
Government to keep its promise to the State of Alaska.
HB98 is a bold step in that direction.
CHAIR MCKAY announced that HB 98 was held over.
2:43:41 PM
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:43 p.m.