Legislature(1995 - 1996)

05/06/1995 09:07 AM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                          May 6, 1995                                          
                           9:07 a.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman                                         
 Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chairman                                     
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman                                      
 Representative Alan Austerman                                                 
 Representative John Davies                                                    
 Representative Pete Kott                                                      
 Representative Irene Nicholia                                                 
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 Representative Eileen MacLean                                                 
 OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                     
 Representative Gary Davis                                                     
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 HJR 48:    Requesting that the Federal Subsistence Board not adopt            
            the proposed subsistence moose hunting regulations for             
            the Kenai Peninsula, not adopt any other federal                   
            regulation changes for hunting or fishing on the Kenai             
            Peninsula, and not adopt the changes in federal                    
            regulations that make a customary and traditional use              
            determination for certain communities on the Kenai                 
            CSHJR 48(RES) PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                              
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE MIKE NAVARRE                                                   
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 521                                                       
 Juneau, AK   99801                                                            
 Phone:  465-3779                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Prime Sponsor HJR 48                                     
 EDDIE GRASSER, Representative                                                 
 Alaska Outdoor Council                                                        
 P.O. Box 73902                                                                
 Fairbanks, AK   99707                                                         
 Phone:  466-4262                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HJR 48                                         
 ROB BOSWORTH, Director                                                        
 Division of Subsistence                                                       
 Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                            
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK   99802                                                            
 Phone:  465-4147                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HJR 48                                         
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  HJR 48                                                                
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) NAVARRE,G.Davis                                 
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                      
 05/02/95      1740    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 05/02/95      1740    (H)   RESOURCES                                         
 05/05/95              (H)   RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 05/06/95              (H)   RES AT 09:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 95-66, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
 The House Resources Committee was called back to order by Co-                 
 Chairman Joe Green at 9:07 a.m.  Members present at the call to               
 order were Representatives Green, Williams, Ogan, Austerman, and              
 Davies.  Members absent were Representatives Barnes, Kott, MacLean,           
 and Nicholia.                                                                 
 HJR 48 - KENAI PENINSULA SUBSISTENCE PROPOSAL                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MIKE NAVARRE, PRIME SPONSOR, told committee members            
 a work draft committee substitute, version K, was drafted to                  
 incorporate changes discussed at the meeting the prior day.  He               
 stated on page 2, the second Resolved was changed to include that             
 the customary and traditional use determinations not be changed on            
 a statewide basis until January 1, 1997.                                      
 version K.                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
 Number 080                                                                    
 the change addresses AOC's concerns about the customary and                   
 traditional use process the Federal Subsistence Board (FSB) adopted           
 and the direction the board was taking at this time.  AOC agrees              
 there has to be a period of time for Alaskans to come to a                    
 resolution to the subsistence issue and the process the FSB is                
 pursuing will be detrimental to that process.  He said the key to             
 the resolution is the Resolved clauses.                                       
 OF FISH AND GAME (ADF&G), stated the department supports HJR 48.              
 He said the resolution provides an opportunity for Alaskans to                
 discuss the subsistence issue further.                                        
 (Representatives KOTT and G. DAVIS joined the committee.)                     
 Number 122                                                                    
 page 1, line 7, following the word "Peninsula", insert "and the               
 State of Alaska".                                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES OBJECTED for discussion purposes.                       
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN felt if the resolution is good for the Kenai              
 Peninsula, it is good for the entire state of Alaska.  He stated he           
 supports putting any action by the FSB on hold until Alaskans can             
 work out a resolution to the subsistence issue.  He said he takes             
 offense in singling out the Kenai Peninsula in CSHJR 48(RES).  He             
 told committee members he cannot support the resolution without the           
 amendments he is proposing.                                                   
 Number 206                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN felt the amendment makes the language a little              
 awkward.  He wondered if Representative Ogan would accept a                   
 friendly amendment to the amendment and remove the words "to                  
 several communities on the Kenai Peninsula" and insert "in the                
 state of Alaska".                                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said the way he has it written is to just add             
 the words "and the state of Alaska".                                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated the way the line reads is "to several                
 communities on the Kenai Peninsula and the state of Alaska".  He              
 pointed out that is like saying "in my bedroom and in my whole                
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES suggested the words "and elsewhere".                    
 REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN asked if the FSB proposed granting              
 new subsistence preferences elsewhere in the state.                           
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated there have been other communities having           
 subsistence preferences granted but not recently.                             
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN pointed out page 1, lines 6-8, say the FSB           
 has proposed granting new subsistence preferences to several                  
 communities on the Kenai Peninsula.  He asked if the FSB has                  
 granted new subsistence preferences elsewhere in the state.                   
 Otherwise, the amendment does not make any sense.                             
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said that is a point well taken.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN WITHDREW his MOTION.                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE stated he understands Representative Ogan's            
 concerns.  He said there are concerns in other areas of the state             
 and that is why the resolution was expanded in the Resolved clause.           
 He told committee members that currently, while not wholeheartedly            
 endorsed, CSHJR 48(RES) is supported by the outdoor and recreation            
 groups.  Those groups feel the resolution may not quite go far                
 enough.  He noted in talking with the Alaska Federation of Natives            
 (AFN), AFN does not like CSHJR 48(RES), as they would like it to be           
 specific only to the Kenai Peninsula problem.  He stressed the                
 overriding goal now is to try to accomplish what is contained in              
 the second Resolved clause, which is to take a step back from the             
 subsistence issue and determine if Alaska can come up with a                  
 consensus in the next year.                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE said he does not necessarily oppose the                
 amendments being proposed but is concerned that the changes may               
 erode some of the support from people he has talked to among his              
 rural colleagues who are willing to support the resolution.  He               
 felt if the resolution is made only a statewide resolution, AFN               
 will not only oppose it but will actively oppose it and the                   
 resolution will become a divisive resolution rather than one with             
 a goal of bringing Alaskans together.                                         
 Number 307                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated there have been other areas of the                 
 state, such as the Copper River and the Katie John case, where                
 pending actions could be taken.  He felt the fact that HJR 33 did             
 not pass, CSHJR 48(RES) is a good approach to get the federal                 
 government to back off.  However, he stressed what is good for the            
 Kenai Peninsula is good for the rest of the state.  He thought it             
 was hypocritical that the resolution is only focused on the Kenai             
 Peninsula because it is a state issue.                                        
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said he objects to the word hypocritical.  He               
 felt Representative Navarre had done everything other than be                 
 hypocritical.  He thought Representative Navarre made a good point            
 in that it is better to get something done in the hottest area, if            
 possible, even though it is desired to get something done statewide           
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE suggested CSHJR 48(RES) be changed on page             
 1, lines 10 and 11, before the word "may" delete the word "hunting"           
 on line 10 and delete the words "the Kenai Peninsula and" on line             
 11.  He stated the resolution would then contain statewide                    
 language.  He noted when any minor change is made, additional                 
 controversy occurs.  He noted the suggested change does not                   
 accomplish all of the changes Representative Ogan desires, but it             
 does address the issue more on a statewide basis.                             
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE stated CSHJR 48(RES) is attempting to be               
 both specific to the Kenai Peninsula with respect to comments                 
 before the FSB on the proposed subsistence hunt there and trying to           
 approach it from a statewide perspective.  He said the resolution             
 originally was specific to the Kenai Peninsula and a number of                
 people told him that it was a resolution to get him out of hot                
 water.  Initially, that was part of the driving force behind the              
 resolution.  He recognized that, but also recognized his                      
 credibility with respect to the issue was going to make it                    
 difficult to try and find any consensus.  He noted with the help of           
 a number of other people on both sides of the issue, he tried to              
 draft language that will drive Alaskans to the middle ground and              
 avoid the divisiveness seen with HJR 33.                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE said unless there is broad support and an              
 ability to step back away from the subsistence issue, it will not             
 be possible to accomplish anything with CSHJR 48(RES) or any other            
 resolution brought before the legislature.  He expressed concern if           
 nothing is done, the subsistence issue will go further out of                 
 control and the legislature will not have the opportunity to                  
 address the issue.  He felt the time may have already passed to try           
 and resolve the subsistence issue and he is not sure everyone will            
 want to come to the table.  However, in talking with Lieutenant               
 Governor Ulmer, he discovered that all sides have agreed to sit               
 down and talk about the issue.                                                
 Number 390                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN stated subsistence is a war and it is a              
 war going on throughout Alaska.  He said what is going on in the              
 Kenai Peninsula is a battle specific to a particular area.  He                
 expressed surprise at Representative Ogan's way of trying to turn             
 CSHJR 48(RES) into a statewide resolution, when the resolution was            
 originally specific to the Kenai Peninsula or a Kenai Peninsula               
 battle.  He felt if the subsistence war is going to be fought, it             
 is better to win as many battles as possible.  He pointed out if              
 the battle on the Kenai Peninsula can be won, it is a step in the             
 right direction.                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES thought this was more of a truce and an                 
 attempt to declare a cease fire for a year.  He stated he reviewed            
 the rest of Representative Ogan's language changes and found                  
 similar kinds of problems as found in the first one.  The way the             
 language is constructed, the changes do not make sense.  He                   
 expressed support for the language change suggested by                        
 Representative Navarre and felt the language goes an appropriate              
 distance in addressing Representative Ogan's concerns without doing           
 some sniping in the process.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS stated the amendments proposed by                   
 Representative Ogan puts the entire subsistence issue back before             
 the legislature, similar to HJR 33, and makes the resolution more             
 contentious.  He felt in regard to the entire subsistence issue,              
 there is a need to find little niches of agreement.  He pointed out           
 if CSHJR 48(RES) can remain as it is, it would be a little plus for           
 everyone which is what is needed.  He thought the fact that the AFN           
 is lukewarm on the resolution is a positive step and that is the              
 way the entire subsistence issue is going to get moving.                      
 REPRESENTATIVE G. DAVIS felt in a resolution, there is need for               
 something like what has happened on the Kenai Peninsula to create             
 the focus.  He stated there is a need to slow up and use that as a            
 focus to generate some discussion.  He said if the amendments are             
 approved, the legislature will be back in the same war like HJR 33,           
 instead of a battle.                                                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN concurred.  He thought one of the driving forces            
 was the skirmish in the Upper Cook Inlet region which will                    
 adversely affect the Kenai area.  He observed that is probably why            
 Representative Ogan was desiring to expand the resolution.  He felt           
 there had been convincing testimony indicating that even                      
 Representative Navarre's suggested language change will be                    
 contentious to some degree.  He stated the emotions are as intense            
 as if the state was in a war and felt if it is possible to cool               
 down, that is the way to go.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated it is obvious there is not a lot of                
 support for his proposed amendments.                                          
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE stated the AFN will not oppose a resolution            
 that is specific to the Kenai Peninsula and includes no statewide             
 language.  He said he is hopeful the resolution will be supported             
 with the proposed change in it.  He pointed out if the AFN will not           
 endorse the resolution, he is hopeful he can get the AFN to not               
 take an official position against CSHJR 48(RES) but just allow the            
 resolution to go through the body, allowing members to vote the way           
 they want, with the AFN asking rural members to vote for or against           
 REPRESENTATIVE G. DAVIS said the key word is strategy.  The                   
 strategy is to try and get a niche of people in agreement, even if            
 it is on page 1 instead of the entire book.  Perhaps next time it             
 will be a chapter.                                                            
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN WITHDREW his MOTION.                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN made a MOTION to AMEND CSHJR 48(RES) on page 1,           
 lines 12-14, delete all material.                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES OBJECTED.                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated this amendment is proposed because this            
 is not the first time communities will have been given new                    
 subsistence preferences since the federal management took over the            
 management of subsistence hunting on federal lands.  He stressed it           
 is an incorrect statement.                                                    
 Number 538                                                                    
 MR. BOSWORTH stated it is correct to say that this is not the first           
 time.  He noted he does not speak on behalf of the FSB but as an              
 observer of their process.  He said the FSB has two approaches to             
 customary and traditional findings.  The first is a broad scale               
 approach which is what is being seen on the Kenai Peninsula where             
 the FSB takes a comprehensive look at customary and traditional               
 uses.  He added that the Kenai Peninsula is the first of the                  
 comprehensive approaches the FSB has scheduled.  He noted there are           
 several more coming down the road.                                            
 MR. BOSWORTH told committee members prior to this comprehensive               
 look at customary and traditional uses, the FSB has made interim              
 findings.  The most recent example is a finding specifically having           
 to do with musk ox on the Seward Peninsula.  In that sense, with an           
 interim finding for a specific community, for a specific species,             
 the FSB has made those determinations.  He stated as far as taking            
 a comprehensive look at an area like the Kenai Peninsula, this is             
 the first time for that.                                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN clarified that new subsistence preferences have           
 been given to Glennallen, Kodiak, Sitka, Cantwell, Nenana, Bethel,            
 Nome, Tok, and other communities.  He said this Whereas states this           
 is the first time that communities have been given new subsistence            
 preferences and that statement is not entirely correct.  He thought           
 Mr. Bosworth's answer was somewhat nebulous depending on which type           
 of subsistence was being looked at.                                           
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES suggested putting the word "comprehensive"              
 before the word "new" on page 1, line 12.                                     
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN felt if this is a new form of management it               
 needs to be more accurately described.                                        
 MR. BOSWORTH stated the words "comprehensive new subsistence                  
 preferences" as Representative Davies suggested is an accurate                
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES proposed to make a FRIENDLY AMENDMENT to the            
 AMENDMENT leaving the language on page 1, lines 12-14 as is and               
 insert the word "comprehensive" before the word "new" on line 12.             
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he would support that friendly amendment.            
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN made a MOTION to AMEND CSHJR 48(RES) on page 1,             
 line 14, delete the word "of".                                                
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN made a MOTION to AMEND CSHJR 48(RES) on page 1,             
 line 10, before the word "may", delete the word "hunting", and on             
 line 11, delete the words "the Kenai Peninsula and".                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
 amended, with attached fiscal note, out of committee with                     
 individual recommendations.                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
 There being no further business to come before the House Resources            
 Committee, Co-Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 9:50 a.m.               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects