03/27/1998 03:28 PM House L&C
| Audio | Topic |
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE LABOR AND COMMERCE STANDING COMMITTEE
March 27, 1998
3:28 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Norman Rokeberg, Chairman
Representative John Cowdery, Vice Chairman
Representative Bill Hudson
Representative Joe Ryan
Representative Gene Kubina
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Jerry Sanders
Representative Tom Brice
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 324
"An Act relating to liens for municipal assessments for certain
utility improvements."
- MOVED CSHB 324(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE
SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 349
"An Act prohibiting the use of the title 'social worker' without a
license; relating to social workers, licensure of social workers,
and the Board of Clinical Social Work Examiners; and providing for
an effective date."
- MOVED CSSSHB 349(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HOUSE BILL NO. 438
"An Act establishing an exemption for investment clubs from the
business license requirement."
- MOVED CSHB 438(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HOUSE BILL NO. 424
"An Act relating to civil liability for activities of volunteer
school crossing guards; and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
HOUSE BILL NO. 400
"An Act combining parts of the Department of Commerce and Economic
Development and parts of the Department of Community and Regional
Affairs by transferring some of their duties to a new Department of
Commerce and Rural Development; transferring some of the duties of
the Department of Commerce and Economic Development and the
Department of Community and Regional Affairs to other existing
agencies; eliminating the Department of Commerce and Economic
Development and the Department of Community and Regional Affairs;
relating to the Department of Commerce and Rural Development;
adjusting the membership of certain multi-member bodies to reflect
the transfer of duties among departments and the elimination of
departments; and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 324
SHORT TITLE: MUNICIPAL LIEN FOR UTILITY IMPROVEMENTS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) OGAN, Kohring
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
01/16/98 2061 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/16/98 2061 (H) L&C, JUDICIARY
02/04/98 2223 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KOHRING
02/09/98 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
02/09/98 (H) MINUTE(L&C)
BILL: HB 349
SHORT TITLE: REGULATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) JAMES, Kelly, Elton, Croft
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
01/23/98 2120 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/23/98 2120 (H) LABOR & COMMERCE
02/04/98 2223 (H) COSPONSOR(S): ELTON
03/04/98 2499 (H) SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE INTRODUCED -
REFERRALS
03/04/98 2499 (H) LABOR & COMMERCE
03/18/98 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
03/18/98 (H) MINUTE(L&C)
03/26/98 2761 (H) COSPONSOR(S): CROFT
BILL: HB 438
SHORT TITLE: INVESTMENT CLUB LICENSE EXEMPTION
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) RYAN
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
02/18/98 2355 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/98 2355 (H) L&C, FINANCE
03/25/98 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
03/25/98 (H) MINUTE(L&C)
03/27/98 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
WITNESS REGISTER
DAVE STANCLIFF, Legislative Assistant
to Representative Scott Ogan
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 128
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2338
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented committee substitute for HB 324.
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 102
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3743
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SSHB 349.
ANGELA SALERNO, Executive Director
Alaska Chapter
National Association of Social Workers
318 Fourth Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-4438
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on committee substitute for
SSHB 349.
DAVID PREE, Legislative Assistant
to Representative Joe Ryan
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 420
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3875
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 438.
FLOYD DAMRON, Co-President
Alaska Regional Council
National Association of Investors Corporation
P.O. BOX 141503
Anchorage, Alaska 99514-1503
Telephone: (907) 278-2551
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 438.
CATHERINE REARDON, Director
Division of Occupational Licensing
Department of Commerce and Economic Development
P.O. Box 110806
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0806
Telephone: (907) 465-2534
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 438.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-39, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIRMAN NORMAN ROKEBERG called the House Labor and Commerce
Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:28 p.m. Members present
at the call to order were Representatives Rokeberg, Cowdery, Hudson
and Ryan. Representative Kubina arrived at approximately 3:30 p.m.
Chairman Rokeberg noted the excused absences of Representatives
Sanders and Brice.
HB 324 - MUNICIPAL LIEN FOR UTILITY IMPROVEMENTS
Number 0257
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's first item of business
was HB 324, "An Act relating to liens for municipal assessments for
certain utility improvements." He asked the sponsor's
representative to briefly explain the differences between HB 324
and the proposed committee substitute.
Number 0260
DAVE STANCLIFF, Legislative Assistant to Representative Scott Ogan,
came forward to testify. Mr. Stancliff said it was the sponsor's
original intent to provide relief for people who could not afford
to hook-up to a utility for various reasons. He said it had been
discovered in the last committee meeting [House Labor and Commerce
Standing Committee meeting February 9, 1998], and after
conversations with municipal officials, that requiring
municipalities to grant complete exemptions could jeopardize the
financing package and cause problems for the local improvement
district (LID) process. He stated the proposed committee
substitute has been changed to simply grant, and make it clear in
statute, that local governments can provide a deferment according
to their terms and conditions for people who are elderly,
economically disadvantaged or otherwise unable to meet this cost.
Mr. Stancliff emphasized that the deferment does not mean the debt
goes unpaid. It can be deferred as long as municipalities wish and
that debt would still be liable when the property changed hands.
He said the bill was much more friendly toward the municipal
governments. The proposed committee substitute for HB 324, labeled
0-LS1150\B, Cook, dated 3/25/98, read:
* Section 1. AS 29.46.020 is amended by adding a new
subsection to read:
(d) A municipality may by ordinance provide for
deferral of payment of all or part of the assessments on
real property owned and occupied as the primary residence
and permanent place of abode by a resident who is elderly
or economically disadvantaged as determined under
criteria established in the ordinance. The assessment
becomes due when the property ceases to be owned by the
resident who qualified for the deferral.
Number 0380
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG confirmed the deferred amount would attach to the
title of the land and have to be satisfied upon the transfer of
title.
MR. STANCLIFF agreed that was correct.
Number 0398
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COWDERY asked if the deferment had to be until
the transfer of title, questioning whether this would work in a
situation he knew of, where the wage earner had been in an accident
and was "pretty stretched for a dollar" for a couple of years.
Number 0323
MR. STANCLIFF indicated the municipalities could set up any systems
they wanted to work with people who might be economically
disadvantaged for a couple of years in the situation Representative
Cowdery described. He added the examples of a single mother or
elderly person.
Number 0458
REPRESENTATIVE BILL HUDSON said the state of Oregon has "sort of"
a senior property tax deferral, asking if this was similar. He
commented he was thinking a lot of seniors in Alaska could be in
situations where what they had always considered to be their
retirement homes had become such valuable pieces of property that
they could not afford the tax loads. He gave the example of
seniors with beach-front homesteads on Fritz Cove Road in Juneau,
mentioning changes in property value and tax mechanism.
Representative Hudson noted this could possibly solve some of these
peoples' problems because the municipality could give them an
option to defer the taxes until their death. He indicated this
would allow them to stay in their homes, with the taxes due from
any heirs. Representative Hudson asked if that was what Mr.
Stancliff saw the proposed committee substitute for HB 324 doing.
Number 0530
MR. STANCLIFF replied, "Very much." He said they had been offered
some language from either Washington or Oregon, he believed, to do
exactly that. He said they used that generic approach here, and
the drafter, Tamara Cook, put it into her style. Mr. Stancliff
indicated the problem in statute is a difference in interpretation
of assessment for equal use, noting the Matanuska-Susitna (Mat-Su)
Borough's attorney said the borough felt it needed something a
little clearer in statute to give the borough the ability.
Number 0566
REPRESENTATIVE JOE RYAN asked the chairman, noting the chairman's
real estate background, if the assessment would come due on
transfer of inherited property to the beneficiary or if they would
have to wait for the sale of the property.
Number 0595
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said it was a very good question. He indicated
he thought it would come due on inheritance, based on his reading
of the last sentence of the bill ["The assessment becomes due when
the property ceases to be owned by the resident who qualified for
the deferral."]. He commented on the wording, "ceases to own",
noting he thinks there is a reason for that use of the words; it
would account for various changes or transfer of title. Therefore,
he said, whoever came into title would assume that obligation,
which is normally a payment amortized over a period of years with
accrued interest. He stated, "So, I - I think that that would be
the case. It's like a - a covenant that attaches itself to the
land ... and it goes with the land until it's satisfied. It's a
lien, actually, on the property and would show up on the title
report as a lien on the property."
Number 0648
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said, "My only concern is that some sharper
attorney may put a clause in there that the property would escheat
to the governmental unit at the time."
Number 0663
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he thinks this is a permissive type of
ordinance. It grants an election to a municipal government and
allows the government to make its decision; he thinks the municipal
government could develop a construct around that. He commented,
"And we don't want to have no attorneys screwing with our laws that
we make, how's that?" With that, Chairman Rokeberg stated he would
accept a motion to adopt the proposed committee substitute.
Number 0693
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to adopt the proposed committee
substitute for HB 324, Version B, for consideration. There being
no objections, Version B of HB 324 was adopted.
Number 0764
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to move the proposed committee
substitute for HB 324, Version B, out of committee with zero fiscal
note and individual recommendations, asking unanimous consent.
There being no objections, CSHB 324(L&C) was so moved.
SSHB 349 - REGULATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS
Number 0787
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business
was SSHB 349, "An Act prohibiting the use of the title 'social
worker' without a license; relating to social workers, licensure of
social workers, and the Board of Clinical Social Work Examiners;
and providing for an effective date."
Number 0800
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES came forward to present the proposed committee
substitute, Version P, for SSHB 349, labeled 0-LS1304\P,
Lauterbach, dated 3/25/98. She reviewed the concerns raised by the
committee that Version P addresses. Representative James stated on
page 2, lines 18 and 19, AS 08.01.070 (10) has been repealed [Lines
15, 15, 18 and 19 read: "* Sec. 7. As 08.95.030 is amended to
read: Sec. 08.95.030. Duties. The board shall ... (2) [SUBMIT AN
ANNUAL REPORT OF ITS PROCEEDINGS TO THE DEPARTMENT;"]. On page 4,
line 16, "licensed to practice clinical social work" has been added
so that subsection (11) reads, "(11) while licensed to practice
clinical social work, engaged in sexual contact with a person
during the time period that the person was a client or within two
years after termination of the licensee's professional relationship
with the client.". This amends that provision so it applies only
to LCSWs, while professional social workers practice under the
guidance of the National Association of Social Workers (NASW) code
of ethics which prohibits sexual contact with clients. This
addresses concerns that those social workers employed by the
Division of Family and Youth Services (DFYS) as licensed bachelor's
social workers (LBSWs) or licensed master's social workers (LMSWs)
would be cited for entering into sexual relationships with
individuals who were not their direct clients. On page 7, line 22,
the text "satisfactorily completed" has been substituted for "not
failed" so that subsection (3) now reads, "(3) has satisfactorily
completed the examination for a license to practice clinical social
work in this state;". This addresses the concern that an applicant
may never repeat the licensing exam if once failed. On page 7,
line 31, the wording "or surrendered in lieu of disciplinary
action" has been added so that subsection (5) now reads, "(5) has
not had a license to practice clinical social work revoked,
suspended, or surrendered in lieu of disciplinary action in this
state or another jurisdiction;". This clarifies the conditions
which must be met before the licensing board may award a license by
credentials.
Number 0893
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES continued that the wording "has not failed the
master or baccalaureate social work examination, as applicable, in
this state;", which occurred on page 8, lines 15 and 16, of SSHB
349, has been deleted in the proposed committee substitute. This
also addresses the concern that an applicant may never complete the
licensing examination if once failed. On page 8, line 21, of the
proposed committee substitute, the wording "or surrendered in lieu
of disciplinary action" has been added so that subsection (5) now
reads, "(5) has not had a license to practice social work or to use
the title "social worker" revoked, suspended, or surrendered in
lieu of disciplinary action in this state or another
jurisdiction;". This clarifies the conditions which must be met
before the licensing board may award a LBSW or LMSW license. On
page 9, line 2 and lines 20 to 21, the wording "health care or
mental health professionals" occurring in SSHB 349 has been
replaced by "practitioners of the healing arts". "Health care or
mental health professional" is not defined in law; use of the term
"practitioners of the healing arts" reduces ambiguity because that
term is defined in law. Representative James referred to previous
discussion regarding the fiscal note, stating she had not wanted to
have a fiscal note attached to this bill but there was a $25,000
fiscal note from the Division of Occupational Licensing.
Representative James stated she argued with the division and it
presented her another note for $13,200, but she is still not
satisfied; she believes this should be able to be done with
existing staff. Therefore, she has prepared a zero fiscal note
dated that day as the sponsor of HB 349, since this is the first
committee of referral, and she wishes the committee to take her
zero fiscal note rather than the Division of Occupational
Licensing's fiscal note.
Number 1000
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG thanked Representative James for her explanation.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to adopt the proposed committee
substitute Version P for SSHB 349, asking unanimous consent. There
being no objections, Version P, labeled 0-LS1304\P, Lauterbach,
dated 3/25/98, was adopted.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented to Representative James that Sections
24 and 25 were still in the bill, indicating social workers were
being made practitioners of the healing arts, and he asked for the
explanation of that again. Sections 24 and 25 read:
*Sec. 24. AS 47.17.020(a) is amended to read:
(a) The following persons who, in the performance of
their occupational duties, have reasonable cause to
suspect that a child has suffered from harm as a result
of child abuse or neglect shall immediately report the
harm to the nearest office of the department:
(1) practitioners of the healing arts;
(2) school teachers and school administrative
staff members of public and private schools;
(3) [SOCIAL WORKERS;
(4)] peace officers[,] and officers of the
Department of Corrections;
(4) [(5)] administrative officers of
institutions;
(5) [(6)] child care providers;
(6) [(7)] paid employees of domestic violence
and sexual assault programs, and crisis intervention and
prevention programs as defined in AS 18.66.990;
(7) [(8)] paid employees of an organization
that provides counseling or treatment to individuals
seeking to control their use of drugs or alcohol.
* Sec. 25. AS 47.17.290(13) is amended to read:
(13) "practitioner of the healing arts" includes
chiropractors, mental health counselors, social workers,
dental hygienists, dentists, health aides, nurses, nurse
practitioners, occupational therapists, occupational
therapy assistants, optometrists, osteopaths,
naturopaths, physical therapists, physical therapy
assistants, physicians, physician's assistants,
psychiatrists, psychologists, psychological associates,
audiologists licensed under AS 08.11, hearing aid dealers
licensed under AS 08.55, marital and family therapists
licensed under AS 08.63, religious healing practitioners,
acupuncturists, and surgeons;
Number 1070
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES deferred the explanation to Ms. Salerno,
noting it has to do with reporting child abuse.
Number 1079
ANGELA SALERNO, Executive Director, Alaska Chapter, National
Association of Social Workers, came forward to testify. She stated
this was inserted at the request of the Board of Clinical Social
Work Examiners. Practitioners of the healing arts are mandatory
reporters of child abuse and they also have the ability, without
parental consent, to send a child for a medical exam or x-ray, or
to take a picture of a child. She reiterated that this is
concerned with the issue of child abuse. Section 24 takes social
workers out of the list of mandatory reporters, avoiding redundancy
in Section 25 when social workers are added as practitioners of the
healing arts.
Number 1135
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called an at ease at 3:45 p.m. The committee
came back to order at 3:54 p.m.
Number 1146
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted for the record that the committee adjourned
momentarily to look at the statutory foundations of those bill
sections as they relate to the definition of practitioner of the
healing arts and its impact on: 1) Any insurance legislation. He
stated it is the committee's review that this will not have any
impact on insurance. 2) The committee has reviewed the Title 47
area of Medicaid reimbursements in terms of (indisc.); he said the
committee found no indication that a social worker would be
anywhere on the list under the current statutory scheme. Chairman
Rokeberg indicated that therefore the committee believes there will
not be any negative (indisc.) financial impacts on passage of this
bill because of the use of the term "practitioner of the healing
arts" ["practitioner of medical arts" stated on tape].
Number 1225
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to move Version P, the proposed
committee substitute for SSHB 349, with the March 27, 1998, zero
fiscal note, asking unanimous consent. There being no objections,
CSSSHB 349(L&C) moved out of the House Labor and Commerce Standing
Committee.
HB 438 - INVESTMENT CLUB LICENSE EXEMPTION
Number 1252
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business
was HB 438, "An Act establishing an exemption for investment clubs
from the business license requirement." He asked Representative
Ryan, the bill sponsor, how he wished to proceed.
Number 1276
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called a brief at ease at 3:57 p.m. The
committee came back to order at 4:00 p.m.
Number 1297
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made motion to adopt the proposed committee
substitute for HB 438, Version E, labeled 0-LS1607\E, Bannister,
dated 3/23/98, for discussion. There being no objections, Version
E of HB 438 was adopted.
Number 1304
DAVID PREE, Legislative Assistant to Representative Joe Ryan, came
forward to present HB 438. He stated HB 438 was generated at the
request of a constituent, noting the presence in the committee
members' bill packets of a letter from Floyd Damron requesting this
legislation and an explanatory letter from the president and chief
executive officer (CEO) of the national organization [Kenneth S.
Janke, President and CEO, National Association of Investors
Corporation (NAIC)]. Mr. Pree stated, "You'll find an A version of
this bill in your packet that simply took the statute AS
43.70.110(1) and added, businesses do not include the activities of
investment club and so forth. That proved problematic in a
companion bill on the Senate side, and consequently they were asked
to define business and make a couple of other changes. And due to
the drafting style of our 'leg' legal department [Legislative Legal
and Research Services], it appears as though the E version of this
bill is a completely different bill, when, in fact, it really
isn't. The Section 1 of this bill ... deletes the language
'Commerce and Economic Development may suspend or revoke a business
license under AS 43.70.020 and the commissioner of' ...."
MR. PREE continued, "Inasmuch as ... the people down here in the
rest of this paragraph, buying raw fish and so forth, were never
required to have a business license, it was never the purview of
the Commerce and Economic Development to suspend a license, so this
is rather a housekeeping measure. The change in Section 2 is the
word 'implement'. It's the understanding of our office, and the
Senate office that was handling this, that 'determine and collect
the fees imposed by' was not sufficient enough for them to conduct
their daily business and they needed the verbiage, 'implement',
because they ran into trouble interpreting what the ... rules meant
and meant for them to do. And Section 3 of Version E is simply a
simplified version of the exemptions from the chapter. ... If you
will look at AS 43.71.010, which is Section 1 of Version A, you see
a huge paragraph (indisc.) quite clumsy in a number of places, and
it makes it fairly simple ... it lists these people, and you see
that under (8)(A) 'investment club' is listed so that that
investment club would be exempted from the business licensing
requirement, and then Section 4 of this bill endeavors to define,
specify what a business is."
Version A of HB 438 read:
* Section 1. AS 43.70.110(1) is amended to read:
(1) "business" includes all activities or acts,
personal, professional, or corporate, engaged in or
caused to be engaged in, or following or engaging in a
trade, profession, or business, including receipts from
advertising services, rental of personal or real
property, construction, processing, or manufacturing, but
excluding fisheries businesses, fishermen, liquor
licenses, insurance businesses, mining, and coin-operated
amusement and gaming machines, calling or vocation, with
the object of financial or pecuniary gain, profit or
benefit, either direct or indirect, and not exempting
subactivities producing marketable commodities or
services used or consumed in the main business activity,
each of which subactivities shall be considered business;
the giving or supplying of services as an employee and
the furnishing of property, services, substances, or
things, by a person who does not represent to be
regularly engaging in those transactions, does not
constitute business under the meaning of this chapter;
"business" does not include the activities of an
investment club; in this paragraph, "investment club"
means a group of individuals, incorporated or otherwise
organized, that engages primarily in investing in
securities, that does not sell investment services to
another person, and the primary purpose of which is
educational; and in this paragraph, "security" has the
meaning given in AS 45.55.990;
Number 1495
FLOYD DAMRON, Co-President, Alaska Regional Council, National
Association of Investors Corporation, testified next via
teleconference from Anchorage. Mr. Damron said the national
organization has approximately 600,000 members with about 36,000
clubs. Many clubs in Alaska belong to this organization; he said
approximately 110 clubs with about 1,500 total members. Mr. Damron
stated they have requested that their clubs not be required to have
Alaska business licenses because these clubs are primarily
educational in nature and each member is personally responsible for
his or her own actions with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS); and
because the Security and Exchange Commission does not regard small
investment clubs as being security dealers, brokers or even
businesses.
Number 1589
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked why having a business license created a
burden for an investment club.
MR. DAMRON replied that many of the investment clubs are fairly new
in Alaska, and may have only six to ten members and assets of a few
hundred dollars. He said requiring these clubs to purchase $50
business licenses impacts the return the members would have on any
investments. He also noted they feel clubs are not truly
businesses because the clubs are not selling services, there is no
real trade, and no one outside the club has transactions.
Number 1633
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if any of the clubs had purchased or been
forced to purchase a business license.
MR. DAMRON responded he is involved in two clubs, and he was told
at the licensing office approximately 1 1/2 years ago that he must
purchase a business license, so he did so. He stated, "We've heard
testimony (indisc.) previous meeting for a Senate committee that
the licensing office is giving conflicting answers, and telling
some clubs, yes, they do have to have [a] license and telling other
clubs they don't. And I think it's because of the confusion of the
definition of a business."
Number 1665
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said that was certainly understandable,
commenting that issue is before the committee that day. He made a
humorous reference to the Beardstown Ladies investment club, noting
there is nothing in the bill "that the calculations of rates of
return and success of investment clubs is going to mandated,
outlawed or any other way proscribed by Alaska state statute."
Chairman Rokeberg told Mr. Damron that he is particularly
interested in the formation and education of people in investment
clubs, and he commented, "Ownership of equity in this country makes
us ... strong, and underlines the fact that we are a capitalistic
economy and society .... I think it's an important and wonderful
thing, and we're willing to help you out here."
Number 1728
CATHERINE REARDON, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,
Department of Commerce and Economic Development, came forward to
testify. Ms. Reardon stated she administers business licensing for
the state as well as professional licensing. She noted the request
to clean up the business licensing statute might not seem very
pressing, but she said it is actually is an activity impacting a
lot of the committee members' constituents. She reported in fiscal
year (FY) 1997 the division issued 17,000 new business licenses;
received 30,000 phone calls concerning business licensing; and
received 14,000 visits to the division's counter.
Number 1761
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked the total number of business licenses for
the calendar year. He also asked if the licenses were now
biennial.
Number 1763
MS. REARDON replied the licenses are biennial with a $50 fee;
approximately half expire each calendar year. For FY 1997 there
were 72,646 current business licenses. Of those, 17,715 were newly
issued in 1997; there were 30,900 telephone inquiries; and 12,784
in-person inquiries. Ms. Reardon noted the 1997 revenue was
$1,922,505.
REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA stated he had no problem whatsoever with
exempting these people from business licenses, noting he doesn't
think they should have to have one. He asked for a brief
explanation for the addition of all this other "stuff," commenting
that these aren't new people being exempted. He said he is
assuming the law is just being cleaned up.
Number 1830
MS. REARDON stated that was her goal. She said, "The current
definition of business is about 12 lines long, and we and the
public have a very great deal of difficulty understanding it -- all
these people who walk up to the counter. So my hope was that if we
pulled out those exemptions, [the] same exemptions that already
exist except for the added investment club one, and made a simpler
definition of business, that it would be easier for us all to
interact in collecting these $50 payments."
Number 1853
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG directed Representative Kubina's attention to the
original bill version.
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked why Section 1 was then needed.
Section 1 of Version E, proposed committee substitute for HB 438,
read:
* Section 1. AS 16.10.265(d) is amended to read:
(d) The commissioner of [COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT MAY SUSPEND OR REVOKE A BUSINESS LICENSE
ISSUED UNDER AS 43.70.020 AND THE COMMISSIONER OF]
revenue may suspend or revoke a license to engage in the
business of processing or buying raw fish if the licensee
or an officer, director, or employee in a policy-making
position of the licensee has been convicted of three
offenses under this section. Proceedings to suspend or
revoke a license are governed by AS 44.62 (Administrative
Procedure Act).
MS. REARDON said this was something added by the legislative
drafters, indicating the drafters thought of it as clean-up, and
she stated she had not brought it forward at all.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said, "Thanks for piling on a bill ..."
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA said, "I was just wondering how they figured
Title 16 need amended ... when we're ... in Title (indisc.)."
Number 1873
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said, "As the sponsor ... sometimes it's nice
to be consulted by these people that want to use your bill to clean
their act so that they could owe you a little bit in the future,
but I - I feel kind of ..." He indicated he had not been consulted
about this addition to the bill.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated Representative Ryan might want to say
something because it confused the reader of the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if the chairman wanted a motion to move
the bill.
Number 1890
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG answered in the negative, indicating he at first
thought a motion to delete Section 1 had been requested. He stated
there was a problem with the bill, with the new definition of
"business," noting Ms. Reardon had provided some materials to the
committee. He commented he had some questions with that,
indicating Version A of HB 438 contained the AS 43.70.110(1)
definition of business and Sections 3 and 4 of the Version E, the
proposed committee substitute contained a whole new one. He
referred to Ms. Reardon's hand-outs, indicating one was a copy from
Black's Law Dictionary, noting that then in Section 4 there were
different ways to look at this. He stated, "I guess what's
important here is that there's like 72,000 businesses here that
have an obligation to get a license if it's properly defined here,
and I mean that's why this is really kind of important ... and I
don't want to just 'slam dunk it' ...." He noted Representative
Kubina had to leave.
Sections 3 and 4 of Version E, the proposed committee substitute
for HB 438 read:
* Sec. 3. AS 43.70 is amended by adding a new section to
read:
Sec. 43.70.105. Exemptions. This chapter does not
apply to
(1) a fisheries business;
(2) the sale of liquor under a license issued under
AS 04.11;
(3) an insurance business;
(4) a mining business;
(5) sales through coin-operated amusement and gaming
machines;
(6) supplying services as an employee;
(7) furnishing goods or services by a person who
does not represent to be regularly engaged in furnishing
goods or services;
(8) the activities of an investment club; in this
paragraph,
(A) "investment club" means a group of
individuals, incorporated or otherwise organized, that
engages primarily in investing in securities, that does
not sell investment services to another person, and the
primary purpose of which is educational;
(B) "security" has the meaning given in AS
45.55.990.
* Sec. 4. AS 43.70.110(1) is repealed and reenacted to
read:
(1) "business" means engaging or offering to engage
in a trade, a profession, or an activity with the goal of
receiving a financial benefit in exchange for the
provision of services or goods or other property;
Note: There was a copy with three handwritten definitions Ms.
Reardon indicated she had written in further testimony. It read:
1) "business" means the exchange of goods, services or
other property
2) "business" means an activity, profession or enterprise
engaged in or offered to be engaged in for pecuniary
benefit or livelihood.
3) Delete definition and leave it to department
regulation
Number 1949
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA said he understood the chairman, indicating
he did not want the chairman to rush through this either.
Number 1951
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "I don't really have any problem with
these folks being able to clean stuff up a little, make the code
simpler. They can use this."
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated this "laundry list" would also make it
much easier for future legislators to amend the bill.
Number 1965
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN referred to the definition of "business" from
Black's Law Dictionary, which reads: "Business. Employment,
occupation, profession, or commercial activity engaged in for gain,
benefit, advantage or livelihood. Activity or enterprise for gain,
benefit, advantage or livelihood." He noted the first definition
seemed pretty comprehensive and the committee might want to
consider it, asking if the other members had anything better.
Number 1987
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that definition did not contain the word
"service" which he said was in the other. He indicated he thought
the definition presented by the department was not really that bad
but he had not had the change to closely examine it. He stated,
"The financial benefit -- I mean you could add 'or pecuniary
benefit or livelihood' in there without -- make sure ... you could
word-smith this thing all day long ...."
Number 2015
MS. REARDON indicated the three handwritten definitions were hers,
and explained the reason she eliminated employment from the Black's
law definition. She said, "Since we've exempted being an employee,
I thought maybe get rid of the word 'employment', and the reason I
took out the word 'commercial' from in front of 'activity' was to
make it a little bit broader. One thing you might want to think
about, just to further confuse you all, is whether you want
nonprofits to have to get business licenses or not. Right now,
correctly or incorrectly, we do ask them to get business licenses,
the theory being they receive grants and then they do work, but
..."
Number 2052
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented that this definition would exclude
nonprofits.
MS. REARDON stated, "Except that it says 'activity for livelihood',
so I thought ..."
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said that was not a nonprofit, unless those were
employees making livelihood not the organization.
Number 2060
MS. REARDON said she does not have a strong opinion about the
definition. She noted there isn't really any policy impact in
terms of public health or safety, it is just who will pay $50. She
said it is a tax system, and her goal is to ensure that it is
something relatively easy to understand.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he agreed with the goal, stating, "But then
you just throw in a ringer in here I didn't even think about." He
said there was a policy call there if nonprofits are being charged,
and he indicated he did not feel the definition as drafted included
nonprofits.
Number 2085
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN indicated he had not been aware nonprofits were
required to have business licenses.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that was what Ms. Reardon had just said.
MS. REARDON said, "We've been telling them to, maybe improperly
..."
Number 2095
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there were any other requirements in
state law for nonprofits. He indicated there were federal
requirements for nonprofits to be recognized by the IRS, and noted
he thought there were some requirements under the corporate
statutes for incorporated nonprofits. He stated, "I think there
are under the corporate statutes, if they're incorporated. I know
they have to be registered, but if they're a non-corporate
nonprofit organization, do they have any other registration are you
aware of?"
MS. REARDON replied if an organization is a nonprofit partnership
or sole proprietorship, not a nonprofit corporation, she does not
know. She stated that generally other laws say, "You have to be
properly licensed by the state."
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented, "This can of worms just got wider."
MS. REARDON apologized.
Number 2126
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN commented, "I think that we would be wise ...
having been a past practice of the government even though it may be
a little fuzzy -- for the purpose of the demographics of government
of knowing who's doing business in the state under what
circumstances, the attorney general's, consumer protection, so
forth (indisc.) wise to continue (indisc.) expand this definition
to include those people, put it in the statute, so that everybody
knows who's playing the game, that way we can keep track of 'em."
Number 2146
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he had no problem with that but said the
bill was not drafted like that.
Number 2156
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN noted his aide had just brought it to his
attention that the Senate Labor and Commerce Standing Committee was
also hearing the bill, having probably the same concerns this
committee was having, and he said the Senate committee was going to
have some input into what this committee does. He said, "So, if
you wouldn't mind, I don't really care if you'd like to hold this
over [a] little bit and I'll be happy to talk to the sponsor on the
other ... side, and see if they have some good ideas and perhaps we
can solve this (indisc.) everybody's benefit."
Number 2172
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said, all things considered, he preferred
Representative Ryan's bill over the Senate's. He asked if the
Senate's bill had moved from the Senate Judiciary Standing
Committee to the Senate Labor and Commerce Standing Committee.
MS. REARDON said the Senate's bill had moved out of the labor and
commerce committee and she indicated it would be heard in the
Senate Judiciary Standing Committee on March 30, 1998. She stated
the bill moved out in its original form.
Number 2194
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called an at ease at 4:20 p.m. The committee
came back to order at 4:37 p.m. [IT APPEARS THE COMMITTEE CAME
BACK TO ORDER BEFORE RECORDING BEGAN]
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said, "... go into consideration of House Bill
438, and the chair would recognize a motion to remove Section 1."
Number 2211
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to amend Version E of HB 438 by
deleting Section 1, lines 4 through 11 [page 1]. There being no
objections, Version E of HB 438 was so amended.
Number 2226
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG made a motion to amend Section 4, lines 19
through 21 [page 2], subsection (1), of HB 438, Version E, to read:
(1) "business" means a profit or nonprofit entity
engaging or offering to engage in a trade, a service, a
profession, or an activity with the goal of receiving a
pecuniary benefit in exchange for the provision of
services, or goods or other real or personal property and
nonprofit activity. [Note: only final punctuation is
specified on tape]
There being no objections, the amendment to Version E was adopted.
Number 2260
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to move the proposed committee
substitute for HB 438, Version E, with the attached zero fiscal
note and individual recommendations, out of committee, asking
unanimous consent. There being no objections, CSHB 438(L&C) moved
out of the House Labor and Commerce Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 2275
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG adjourned the House Labor and Commerce Standing
Committee meeting at 4:39 p.m.
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