Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/11/1997 03:06 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 11, 1997
3:06 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Chairman
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative J. Allen Kemplen
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Al Vezey
Representative Tom Brice
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 147
"An Act relating to charter schools and to the establishment of
state boarding schools."
- MOVED CSHB 147(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 146
"An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary
students; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 147
SHORT TITLE: STATE BOARDING SCHOOLS/CHARTER SCHOOLS
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
CURRENT STATUS: (H) HES STATUS DATE: 2/18/97
TITLE: "An Act relating to charter schools and to the establishment
of state
boarding schools."
02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/97 382 (H) HES
03/06/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
03/06/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/11/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 146
SHORT TITLE: PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/97 381 (H) HES
02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/27/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/06/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
03/06/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/11/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
BRUCE JOHNSON, Director
Mt. Edgecumbe High School
Sitka, Alaska 99835
Telephone: (907) 966-2201
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 147
JOHN CYR, President
National Education Association-Alaska, (NEA-Alaska)
114 Second Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-3090
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 147
DENNIS BOYER, Behavior Consultant
Mat-Su School District
5500 Revolutionary Way
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-6944
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146
NANCY BUELL, Ed. D., Director
Teaching and Learning Support
Department of Education
801 West Tenth Street, Suite 200
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1894
Telephone: (907) 465-8689
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-17, SIDE A
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:06 p.m. Members
present at the call to order were Representatives Bunde, Porter,
Dyson, and Kemplen. Representative Green arrived at 3:09 p.m.
Representative Vezey and Brice were absent. Chairman Bunde said
Representative Brice was absent due to a conflict, with another
meeting. This meeting was teleconferenced to Sitka.
HB 147 - STATE BOARDING SCHOOLS/CHARTER SCHOOLS
Number 0027
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the first item on the agenda was HB 147,
"An Act relating to charter schools and to the establishment of
state boarding schools."
Number 0085
BRUCE JOHNSON, Director, Mt. Edgecumbe High School, testified next
via teleconference from Sitka. He said Mt. Edgecumbe High School
is the only residential public high school in the state of Alaska.
As director of the Mt. Edgecumbe High School he urged the committee
to approach the establishment of residential high schools in a
considerate manner. He has only been the director of Mt. Edgecumbe
High School for the past seven months, but previously worked in
both Juneau and Kodiak Island. He said Mt. Edgecumbe High School
remains a viable residential high school due to the unique
circumstances present in the Sitka community. These include: the
strong 50 year tradition that started with Mt. Edgecumbe's founding
as a Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) school in 1947; the long
standing support and partnership of the Sitka community, which at
times creates a need for considerable understanding and tolerance;
the cooperation of the Sitka community due in part to its size,
which allows the sharing of services and the economic viability of
private enterprise to participate in the delivery of services in a
residential program in a cost effective manner; and finally the
commitment of former BIA employees, who have been associated with
Mt. Edgecumbe High School for a considerable time and continue to
serve the students despite modest wages and benefit packages.
Number 0188
MR. JOHNSON said it was his belief that other residential high
schools, while potentially valuable to select students throughout
Alaska, would result in additional costs to the state or individual
school districts beyond the average costs associated in educating,
housing and feeding Mt. Edgecumbe High School students. Also, not
in spite of the need for rural high schools, residential schools do
not work for all students. Creating a residential school would
also need to be approached in a deliberate manner to ensure the
safety concerns, as well as educational programming, be appropriate
to the student body being served.
Number 0244
MR. JOHNSON added that Mt. Edgecumbe High School staff would be
willing to participate with any school district or community
considering the establishment of a residential high school. They
have learned a lot with their ongoing efforts and would be more
than willing to assist.
Number 0278
CHAIRMAN BUNDE thanked him for the willingness to work with other
districts that might be interested in residential schools. He said
HB 147 is permissive, allowing others to explore the option without
requiring residential schools to be established.
Number 0317
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked him if he thought boarding schools
should be under the jurisdiction of the state, rather than under
the local school districts.
Number 0343
MR. JOHNSON felt that residential high schools, by their nature,
are complicated. They are different than day programs and
therefore it makes sense that they are approached cautiously.
Attempting to care for 13 and 14-year-old children, 24 hours a day,
months on end, seven days a week is difficult. He underestimated
the requirements and the watchfulness that is appropriate in a
boarding situation. He had thought; you only have 235 kids, you
can keep them from outside influences, get them to study in the
evening, make sure they're adequately fed and well rested, and this
should create an idyllic situation. In reality, it is clearly more
than a full time job and he is as pressed upon in his job at Mt.
Edgecumbe High School as he was as a superintendent in either
Juneau or Kodiak Island.
Number 0432
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if we should require that boarding
schools be under the jurisdiction of the state as opposed to being
under the jurisdiction of local school districts.
Number 0457
MR. JOHNSON said, if you explore that question carefully, you will
find that the residential component is costly and probably out of
the reach of most school districts without some special
appropriation. From that standpoint, there is a need for
additional money for any large scale residential program that
cannot be secured strictly through the state foundation program and
the contribution at the local level.
Number 0497
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he was asking about the administrative
level. He asked if local school districts would be largely
incapable of administering a residential program.
MR. JOHNSON said no.
Number 0533
JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska, (NEA-
Alaska), said much of what he was going to cover was already
addressed by Mr. Johnson. His organization believes that to build
boarding charter schools on the local level will cost money. We
only have to look at the experience with charter schools in our own
districts, which are not boarding schools, as an example. All of
them, that he knows of, are pleading with the state to provide
extra funds to help them with start up costs and funds to make
their programs more viable. Charter schools, by their very nature,
have higher start up costs than anyone realized when they supported
the legislation last year. A charter school, with a boarding
school component, will be beyond the reach of most districts. It
will be impossible for districts to put that together without some
funding mechanism from the state. If it's not in place and
districts attempt to do it anyway, it will do two things: it will
hurt existing programs because the extra money needed for housing
students has to come from somewhere and it will have to come from
the foundation formula; without funding there is the chance that it
would weaken the program at Mt. Edgecumbe High School. Mt.
Edgecumbe High School has a number of students, if you pull
students away from that school then you have an exemplary program
that has the potential to suffer because of a lack of funding.
Number 0676
MR. CYR referred to the question of the administration. He
believed that yes, local school districts can administer boarding
schools. The deeper question is whether a single school district
should administer a program that draws students from all over the
state or should they administer programs for students within their
districts. The Anchorage school district is the administration,
the governance if you will, for the kids in Anchorage. The MatSu
district is for the kids in MatSu. Now, we are talking about a
broader spectrum, potentially children from all over the state
going to a single school which makes it a statewide concern. The
only body that deals with that wide concern is the DOE and the
state school board. It seems to him that they would be the
appropriate body to be the administrative force behind any
statewide program.
Number 0741
CHAIRMAN BUNDE repeated that HB 147 is permissive language, not
even an unfunded mandate.
Number 0752
REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN referred to page 1, line 8, "the
local school board shall supply funds necessary to pay the expenses
of housing". He suggested changing the word, "shall", to, "may",
and asked if that would make a significant difference. It seemed
to him that it would open up partnerships with local nonprofit
organizations such as a Native corporation. A scenario was
presented where a corporation is interested in aggregating a number
of students in the Yukon-Kuskokwim area into Bethel or Dillingham
for a boarding home. Their contribution is the development of a
residential complex so the threshold of creating a boarding school
alternative is lowered.
Number 0839
MR. CYR believed that option currently exists. If the Lower
Kuskokwim school district decides they want a boarding school in
Bethel, they have the opportunity to build and maintain a boarding
school.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE disagreed.
MR. CYR clarified that he could be wrong. The point he was trying
to make was that a partnership could take place, if this law were
to pass. Right now school districts enter into partnerships with
private corporations to do a number of things. The ability is
there to form those partnerships.
Number 0906
MR. CYR said ultimately, in any partnership, it is the school
district's responsibility. Otherwise you could have Nana
corporation build a dorm, run a dorm and provide the housing,
separate from the school. They can build a hotel in Kotzebue and
fill it with high school age kids, the district can have those kids
go to high school in Kotzebue.
Number 0924
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said that is true, but under state law there can
only be one boarding school, Mt. Edgecumbe High School. He added
that Mt. Edgecumbe High School turns away students every year and
if other districts wanted to have a boarding school they should
have the right to do so.
Number 0947
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN said, "Well I'm not sure whether this is
directed to Mr. Cyr or maybe he could answer it. It's actually
more along what was just discussed by Representative Kemplen, the
word, "shall" in there. Is it the intention of this legislation
that if you have a charter school, then that charter school will
supply the funds or is that you may want a charter school to be
established that doesn't want to, this bill would preclude that."
Number 0976
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the intent of HB 147 is to allow a local
district, whether it be a public school or a charter school, to
establish a boarding school. The district will pay for this
boarding component themselves. The word, "shall", is there so that
it is clear that the state does not provide funding for the
boarding school.
Number 1002
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER said it would not preclude a private
donation to accommodate funds for that individual school district.
Number 1012
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the district can partner however they want. It
needs to be understood that we aren't setting up an additional
state funded boarding school like Mt. Edgecumbe High School. Mt.
Edgecumbe High School is funded directly by the state.
Number 1038
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN expressed concern that someone is going to
misread Section 1(d). He suggested language to add that the state
will not be responsible for boarding.
Number 1058
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he could pursue that line of thought, in the
House Rules Committee, to make sure that it isn't possible to
misunderstand the language.
Number 1077
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to adopt CSHB 147(HES), O-
LSO469\B, dated March 7, 1997, Ford as the working document.
Hearing no objection, CSHB 147(HES) was before the committee.
Number 1095
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to the committee substitute and said he
felt it was necessary to tighten up the title so that it would
stick to the subject that this bill addresses and not allow
confusion as it goes through the process.
Number 1125
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that the purpose of the
legislation is just to provide the opportunity for more boarding
schools to be established in the state as the current statutes
preclude that possibility. He verified that Mt. Edgecumbe High
School is completely funded by the state. He asked if someone
wanted to come forward, wanted to create another boarding school
funding come from the local school district.
Number 1170
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the intent is that the monies would be funneled
through the local school districts. If there were monies that came
from a non-profit corporation, fundraising or a federal grant then
the school district would administer the program. The Anchorage
school district contracts with a private agency for transportation.
A school district or a charter school might contract with Nana
corporation for housing.
Number 1161
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to the human threshold and
resources that are needed to reach a critical mass which is
sometimes a major obstacle to creative initiatives out in our
communities. He liked the idea of having more boarding schools in
the state, in concept it seems like an appropriate thing to do.
The issue of the local school district having to supply funds
concerns him because it is similar to previous issues involving the
relationship between the state and local community entities. He
asked if the state is mandating what they shall do or is the state
going to give them the opportunity to be flexible. When you use
words like "shall" it seems to be a definitive statement of intent,
rather than something that provides more flexibility to a local
school board. He suggested that we want to give them the
opportunity, but also give them the flexibility to make decisions
at the local level.
Number 1340
CHAIRMAN BUNDE did not disagree with Representative Kemplen. This
bill was based on requests from potential areas that would like to
establish charter schools, but it was not his intent to establish
other state funded boarding schools like Mt. Edgecumbe High School.
He said, at one time, Mt. Edgecumbe High School was supposed to be
replaced by regional schools. It was re-established and is serving
a good purpose, but he did not know that the state could duplicate
a number of Mt. Edgecumbe High Schools. He referred to testimony
where duplication of the school might erode Mt. Edgecumbe High
School's base.
Number 1380
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to Section 1(d), which as he reads
it, the only permissible funding would be funding from that
particular school board. He proposed a conceptual amendment on
page 1, line 8, strike the first five words and add after the word,
"expenses", on line 10, "shall not be provided by the state." He
read the proposed change, "the funds necessary to pay the expenses
of housing nonresident students who attend the charter school,
including room, board, and other reasonable housing expenses shall
not be provided by the state." He said this would not state,
specifically, that the school board would have to supply the funds.
He felt the language accomplished what the chair indicated he
wanted to do, not burden the state with another Mt. Edgecumbe High
School. This language does not necessarily indicate that the
school board does it, it is open to anyone except the state.
Number 1446
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this conceptual amendment seems reasonable.
Number 1461
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER emphasized that Representative Green had made
this a conceptual amendment, the committee could let the bill
drafter put what our conception is into the proper language. If
the committee sees a problem with it, we won't accept it.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he was deciding whether to do this as a
committee substitute or pass it as a conceptual amendment where if
problems developed they could be addressed in the House Rules
Standing Committee.
Number 1494
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to adopt a conceptual amendment
which would, "strike the first five words on line 8, `local school
board shall supply' and then at the end of line 10, after the word
`expenses' insert, `shall not be provided by the state.'"
Number 1531
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked for an explanation of conceptual
amendments.
Number 1535
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the thrust of the idea is here, it might have
to be worded somewhat differently in legalese by Legislative Legal
and by the bill drafter to get proper language to fit the bill.
Number 1548
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER clarified that the committee is trying to
make the language say, in (d) on page 1, that an individual school
district may seek outside funds to assist in the funding of this
school, but should not look to the state to be the source of those
funds. Virtually everywhere else that is legal may be a funding
source for the boarding school.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced, that hearing no objection, Amendment
Green-1 was adopted.
Number 1578
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to move CSHB 147(HES) as
amended with individual recommendations and zero fiscal note.
Hearing no objections CSHB 147(HES) was moved from the House
Health, Education and Social Services Committee.
HB 146 - PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING
Number 1603
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 146,
"An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary
students; and providing for an effective date." He said this is
the third time this bill has been heard.
Number 1623
DENNIS BOYER, Behavior Consultant, Mat-Su School District, said he
works as a liaison between the school district and mental health
agencies. Many of the kids he works with are learning disabled,
have attention deficit disorder (ADD), are behaviorally disordered,
severely emotionally disturbed or kids who are having a really
tough time. He was in general support of HB 146, but expressed
concerned about the bill's impact on this population of students.
Number 1671
MR. BOYER said handicapped students cannot be legally or ethically
held to the same standards as non-handicapped students. We can't
expect students who are academically handicapped to compete with
their peers, anymore than we would expect a child with crippled
legs to compete with peers in a foot race. When he read this bill,
he imagined how he was going to tell parents that their third grade
child, considering the handicaps, would most likely never be able
to pass a test and therefore would not be able to receive a high
school diploma.
Number 1702
MR. BOYER said, from a legal standpoint, saying that no handicapped
child will be given a diploma unless the pass the same exit exam as
regular kids will provide a legal opportunity for parents and the
Office of Civil Rights. Conversely, if we grant waivers to these
kids and require a non-handicapped student to pass this exit exam,
we may be guilty of reverse discrimination.
Number 1726
MR. BOYER recommended that extreme caution be taken to avoid
discrimination against the many culturally unique communities in
this state. Perhaps our state, more than any other, has a deep
cultural divide and any statewide exit exam standards are going to
be highly controversial. For many rural students, it is going to
be extremely difficult to do well on a standardized test written
for the main stream, when many of them have never seen a street
light, fire hydrant or an elevator.
MR. BOYER said he commercial fished on the Yukon River each summer
and often wondered if he moved to Mountain Village, Emmonak or
Saint Mary's how he would devise a curriculum that was culturally
relevant and would enlist the support of the village elders.
Maintaining the heritage of these students, while giving them an
accurate vision of what their future should be. He thought it
would be a tremendous challenge to devise a test that is culturally
relevant to many bush communities, while being equally relevant to
urban Alaska. If our exit test is not equally relevant, then it is
going to be discriminatory.
Number 1780
MR. BOYER commented that he did not know what the standards would
be and it is not the committee's job to determine them. In order
to be credible, we cannot hold the students to seventh or even
tenth grade standards. However if we make the standards above
sixth, seventh or eighth grade, many handicapped students will
never get a diploma unless they are granted a waiver. A majority
of students in this state will pass the exam, because a majority of
our students are above the national average. Some of these
functionally able students won't pass. He felt that some of them
deserve to fail.
Number 1813
MR. BOYER referred to one slice of the population of students that
are non-handicapped, but will be at risk of injustice. He works
with students with an i.q. of approximately 80. These students are
good, healthy, honest, moral kids who are working 100 percent to
their potential, but because their i.q. matches their achievement,
they do not qualify as handicapped. In spite of their best
efforts, they cannot and will not achieve more than a sixth to
seventh grade level in English, reading and math. He knew that it
would break the hearts of those teachers who invest great time and
great energy to see that child denied a diploma. He thought it
would be a crime to deny this student the opportunities provided by
a diploma. This student might not be capable of further academic
growth, but may excel in specific areas. There are many areas of
intelligence beyond what is proposed in this exit test, they
include; music, art, athletics, social skills and salesmanship. If
this student does not get a diploma, he might not get that chance
to find and pursue his area of strength. He asked the committee to
imagine this student's hurt and anger. Despite his best efforts,
he is denied access to the post-secondary system. The school
district will, justifiably, face a legal challenge.
Number 1892
MR. BOYER questioned whether kids like these are going to stay in
school. They are bright enough to know that, in spite of their
best efforts, any attempt to receive a diploma is futile. If we
reject these students, they will drop out and we lose the
opportunity to help these students. Higher drop-out rates have
followed the use of exit tests in other states. We need to take a
close look at the factors behind this issue, if increased drop-outs
are the casualties of this exit exam system. If so, we need to
prepare alternatives for them. The drop-outs are going to cost us;
not only in the loss of revenue as our school population drops, but
the downstream cost of corrections for kids who are shut out of our
systems. Kids, out of school and on the street, are at a high risk
of trouble; drugs, stealing and violence. The cost of
incarceration is extremely high.
Number 1934
MR. BOYER said the chances for getting public support for this
credible bill and for it to succeed are much greater if we plan in
advance for the handicapped, the borderline and the drop-outs of
this new system that we are proposing.
Number 1934
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked for clarification that if achievement
matches potential, a person cannot be classified as handicapped.
Number 1942
MR. BOYER responded that the student probably will not be
classified as learning disabled, the student could be classified as
ADD is they meet those criteria. There is a possibility that they
could be classified as severely emotionally disturbed from a mental
health point of view, or other medically impaired. We cannot
necessarily get a handicapping condition that will fit each of
these children who are borderline.
Number 1975
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he did not follow the logic and asked if
not granting a diploma was rejecting a student.
Number 1984
MR. BOYER expressed, from his point of view, that if we have a
student with an 80 i.q. who is told that if; he comes to school,
follows the rules, enters classes, studies this material and
receives at least D grades, accumulates 21 credits, then he will
graduate with a diploma. With this legislation another criteria is
added; you must pass a test. This test, if it is going to be
credible, must at least expect kids to function in English, math
and reading at a ninth grade level, which will be beyond the
ability of this 80 i.q. student, regardless of how hard this
student tries. He might have an area of specialty such as reading
without comprehension, it may be math without the ability to write.
Number 2027
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if he had a suggestion for how to
address the issue of the impaired student, such as lowering the
expected level of expectation or not having this level of
expectation in order to receive a different type of high school
diploma. He asked if this would further segregate those students
from the rest.
Number 2059
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to personal examples of people he had
worked with who had lower i.q. levels with whom he had a good
working relationship and respect for what they could do.
Number 2095
MR. BOYER knew that we could grant diplomas to severely handicapped
children by putting an asterisk on the grades, which shows that it
is a special class. However, it is the same diploma. There are
students out there who should take this test and if they fail they
need to be held accountable. He said this test will wake parents
up to what their children need to know. He questioned how to make
accommodations for the legitimately handicapped and how to hold the
academically able student accountable. He agreed to write a letter
in the next few days to the committee with any suggestions he had.
Number 2149
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he is approaching this exam from another
position. While he recognized the need to be sensitive to the
needs of the handicapped and the limited capable kids, he felt it
was, to a degree, insensitive to give them a diploma that has the
same status as the one given to the valedictorian. Consequently,
he thought it was fair that the high school diploma should
represent something of significance to a future employer or
college. It should mean that this person has met certain
standards. He asked if it would not meet the purpose to have a
certificate of attendance for kids, having the ability to highlight
the positive traits that they have. If they have an avocation in
music, the certificate of attendance could state that this person
has been diligent in their classes all the way through the system
with high points here.
Number 2208
MR. BOYER said part of this could be taken care of with a
legitimate grading system. Unfortunately, we have inflated grades
at times. If we have a student that has an A in math and an A in
music and a D in English, then vocational college recruiters or any
other one should have the responsibility of looking at the diploma
and the grades. The person looking at the transcript can note that
there is an asterisk on the grades with a note referring to the
fact that this was a resource class. If an employer is responsible
at all, he should know what that means. He did not think that the
school district, at the high school level for children under the
age of 18, should be doing the weeding out process. We ought to do
everything that we can to give them a legitimate diploma that does
not shut them out of anything, while holding them accountable
through a grading system and through asterisk grades for those who
are handicapped. With no doors being shut, let those students make
the applications to the college or the trade school. Then as a
school we would have told those students the truth; make good
grades, show good attendance, join activities and get letters of
reference. Rather than us, as a district, saying you're washed out
and you get a certificate of attendance instead of a diploma.
Number 2280
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said as a legislator, you have to make some
decisions that will benefit the most, while hurting the least. He
questioned what a high school diploma should mean. The business
community and, recently, the university system are frustrated that
they are getting high school students who do not function at a high
school level, they are functionally illiterate. He asked if the
student with the 80 i.q. should get the high school diploma, if the
student with the 50 i.q. should get one as well.
MR. BOYER wished he had those answers.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE commented that the student with the 50 i.q. has an
impact on the student with the 120 i.q. if they both receive a high
school diploma.
MR. BOYER said any student that is going to college has to pass the
SAT exams.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE offered that this is not the case for the University
of Alaska.
MR. BOYER suggested raising the standards of entry.
TAPE 97-17, SIDE B
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said 22 or 23 other states have exit exams, maybe we
have to look at what they've done. Perhaps there will be a high
school diploma, a regent's diploma, an honor's diploma or whatever,
but at some point we are also going to have a certificate of
attendance. He said the question is, how do we do the best for the
most. He referred to a survey and stated that 90 percent of people
in his district are saying they want certification tests for
teachers and a high school achievement test. Those people want
some meaning for the diploma and feel that children will live up to
the standards as well as living down to lower standards. We need
to challenge the students that are asleep during the class.
Number 148
MR. BOYER said those kids asleep in class are not being held
accountable. He added that there is no greater respect for a
handicapped child than to tell them, that in spite of your
handicap, we know you can do this, we expect it of you and if you
don't do it, you will be washed out because you are no different
than the rest of us.
Number 0223
NANCY BUELL, Ed. D., Director, Teaching and Learning Support,
Department of Education (DOE), was next to testify. It was her
understanding that at the last hearing of HB 146, the DOE was asked
to make some comments on an implementation timeline. She referred
to a handout, located in the committee file, titled, "Possible
Implementation Table for Exit Examination." A timeline was
projected out for a draft test in reading, writing and mathematics
following the committee request that this be done next year with
implementation of the test in 2001.
DR. BUELL explained, based upon the experience of other states, the
DOE would suggest a phase in period where you begin testing at a
lower grade. This allows for a system of remediation, which seems
to be required in order for the test to withstand a legal
challenge, to be in place. If you choose to start that remediation
at the ninth grade, the experience in other states would indicate
that the test implementation would begin a year past the date the
committee recommended. The test would begin by 1999 or 2000. It
would be begin as an exit test for that class.
Number 0348
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that the DOE would begin preparing people
to take the test, but not...
Number 0359
DR. BUELL recommended that it be given, so that the system of
remediation could be in place. If you don't give the exam, then
there can be no remediation. If there is no remediation, then
chances are it would not pass a legal challenge.
Number 0371
CHAIRMAN BUNDE verified that it would not impact their high school
diploma.
Number 0385
DR. BUELL said the idea here is that ninth graders would take the
exam and some of them would pass. If what occurs is similar to
what happens in other states, then 40 percent would pass with more
passing it in the tenth grade, a number more passing it in the
eleventh grade and a few left by twelfth grade who need to pass the
exam. Hopefully those students would pass the exam with a system
of remediation between ninth and twelfth grade.
Number 0416
CHAIRMAN BUNDE explained his conception of the exit exam; in the
twelfth grade, because students in twelfth grade should be expected
to do things that students in ninth grade are not expected to do,
there would be an exit exam. He questioned testing ninth graders
with the same exam.
Number 0432
DR. BUELL believed that the committee had been provided
information, including extensive legal information, by DOE. Based
upon the experience of other states, states do not start this
testing in the twelfth grade because one of requirements to help
withstand legal challenges to this exam, is that there is a system
of remediation in place for students who do not pass it. This
system of remediation would not be possible if students took the
exam in the twelfth grade.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE stated that a student who passed the exam in the
ninth grade would not have to take it again. He suggested that we
are requesting a ninth grade ability for our high school graduates.
Number 0469
DR. BUELL said, no, this might be one of a number of pieces which
might be considered essential for graduation. This is not a
diploma test, this is one of the things a student has to do in
order to graduate. She asked if this assumption was correct.
Number 0488
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he was looking at a competency test that high
school seniors would take. It might be that the committee would
decide that the best we can hope for is functional literacy at a
ninth grade level for our seniors.
Number 0505
DR. BUELL suggested that there might be semantic difficulty. She
said the committee would intend for the student to take and pass
high school classes. This is also what she is saying; that the
minimum competency test could be passed by a ninth grader, but in
order to graduate they would have to pass their high school
classes. This is what is done in other states.
Number 0530
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said we come back to the issue that the minimum
competency level we expect of our high school seniors is a ninth
grade literacy level.
Number 0536
DR. BUELL said this did not mean that all of our ninth graders are
on the ninth grade level.
Number 0548
CHAIRMAN BUNDE understood this to be the case. He reminded her
that HB 146 included a social science and science section in the
exit exam.
Number 0556
DR. BUELL understood this. The department did not recommend, for
a number of reasons, that we test science and social science on an
exit test. There are a couple of states which do this, who have
invested millions of dollars in trying to make their test something
which can past muster. The DOE has found, in terms of developing
this kind of test, that there is not national agreement on what
would constitute appropriate standards in this area. For instance,
the national standards in those areas, especially in social
studies, have been sent back three times and the U.S. Congress has
refused to fund the latest rendition of the standards because they
do not feel they are appropriate. It is hard to develop a test
that everyone believes is appropriate for graduation if we don't
have common agreement on the standards. Further, it is very
difficult to develop a test where a student performs the same from
time to time, which is the reliability needed in order for the test
to stand up in court.
Number 0623
DR. BUELL said most of the science and social studies components,
on this scale, test the ability to read material in science and
social studies as opposed to true science and social studies
knowledge or the application of that knowledge. For instance, they
would be reading about science as opposed to being able to perform
in science. There has been, amongst the assessment community
nationwide, a great deal of energy in this area lately because a
lot of states are interested in having all their standards tested.
The technical validity of those tests is not good yet. She
referred to reports that she would be glad to share with the
committee. These tests are far from being economically feasible.
The state could obtain tests in reading, writing and mathematics
economically.
Number 0675
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, on this point, social science is a large block
of knowledge and asked if we were to talk about history, U.S.
history or U.S. and Alaska history would it seem more achievable.
Number 0692
DR. BUELL answered that one state was in the process of developing
a history test. This state could be contacted to find out the
costs associated with it and how difficult it's been. We have
standards in that area, obviously we think students should know and
be able to do things in that area. We're talking about a large
scale state level test as opposed to the district being able to
test the individual at the local level where they're observing the
student every day. There are multiple indicators which test
knowledge including; the teacher knowing what has been taught and
testing that particular knowledge.
Number 0725
DR. BUELL clarified that DOE does not resist the idea of an exit
test in any way. They have put a great deal of time and energy
into trying to establish content standards for students. They've
tried to do that in a way that is appropriate for Alaska. Being a
local control state, Alaska has taken a bashing, nationally, for
not having state adopted standards, for not having state mandated
assessments in all areas. Alaska always seems to be at the bottom
of the list and it is always because we have voluntary standards.
This is part of what we've done as a state and has resulted, over
time, in a real limited capacity for the state to mandate anything.
We need to start mandating things if we are going to require that
certain things be met. We need to mandate things a lot farther
down the line.
DR. BUELL commented that a state which has always had a statewide
curriculum, or a state like California which even mandates its
textbook adoption and what has to be done in inservice classes, it
is much easier for those states to declare what the curriculum is
and this is what we're going to test. A testing company can make
the test based on this curriculum, even then the state spent
several million dollars creating this test. There is no
significant difference between developing a test for 20,000
students and developing a test for 2 million kids. It is a similar
technical process, virtually identical. We can learn from what has
happened in other states.
DR. BUELL referred back to the timeline she presented and said it
is the timeline which Washington and several other states have
taken. As this becomes a bigger and bigger issue nationally, as
people are looking at standards and whether or not students can
achieve standards, the whole interest in state level testing has
been substantially increased, as well as the litigation associated
with this issue. She hoped the committee knew that DOE is not
opposed in concept, but is trying to offer information based upon
what they have gathered from other states.
Number 0850
CHAIRMAN BUNDE explained that some of the frustration he has heard
is about walking the line between local control and the voluntary
standards. As well as the frustration about the competence level
of graduating seniors.
Number 0882
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said HB 147 is an attempt to move from voluntary
standards to some compliance level which maintains as much local
control as possible. He suggested that those areas which could use
the standards the most will probably be the ones least likely to
use voluntary standards.
Number 0902
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if the standards were based on the
required courses in school. He referred to elective courses and
questioned the need to test those subjects. He asked if we are
testing ninth graders, if we are testing those required ninth grade
courses.
Number 0983
DR. BUELL said his comments reminded her of the bell curve which is
where we get the whole concept of a ninth grade level versus
whatever other grade level. The curve is based on an adequate
sample, the majority of people who are this age, in this grade, and
who many will do this well. It is quite arbitrary. One of the
things that has happened in a lot of states is the desire to say
that all students better get up to certain levels, it is not good
enough that 50 percent of them get up to that level. So, rather
than saying a ninth grade level, they say here is the standard that
everybody needs to meet. If everybody doesn't meet it, then they
don't get proficient.
Number 1029
DR. BUELL referred to his concern that ninth grade is the best that
we would expect. If you look at the bell curve, you can see that
some ninth graders are reading at the fourteenth, fifteenth and
sixteenth grade levels. The bell curve would tell us that in a
normal population, perhaps 2 or 3 percent are out there at the end.
Then there are 2 or 3 percent that aren't even on the chart, they
are way down on the other end. A bunch are probably at the
eleventh or twelfth grade level. By the time those students get to
high school they never score at the "ninth grade level" on those
standardized tests. Right in the middle, the big bunch, are the
group that determine the level. She did not feel this system was
good enough for standards. In establishing a cut off score you
have to figure out what we want a high school student, who exits,
to know and be able to do and then set a level of expectation
there. This is what they are hoping to do with the establishment
of standards and what other states have tried to do as well.
Number 1084
DR. BUELL commented that in some other states, nobody passes the
first year. This happened in Kentucky and Connecticut, but because
those states had a phase-in, they were able to tell the teachers
and kids what needed to be done, tell the parents that this is what
your kids are going to need to know and in a short time an
increasing number of students began to pass the test. If you don't
know what the standards are, it's a crap shoot. You might pass,
you might not. If you know what the standards are, you clearly
know what you need to know, then the ninth grade level becomes
irrelevant and the standards are the important thing.
Number 1110
CHAIRMAN BUNDE noted that most newspapers and instructions are
written at the eighth grade level, so perhaps he shouldn't have
felt so challenged by the ninth grade level. He referred to the
carrot and stick approach and said Representative Dyson would talk
about managing outcomes, but that there are students in the
eleventh grade now, who have to do very little in school because
they have worked ahead and received their credits. He is concerned
that someone in the ninth grade, who has passed their exam, would
coast for the next three years or if they would remain motivated.
He reiterated that he is concerned about the message that might be
sent if they take and pass the test early on.
Number 1168
DR. BUELL said there will probably be some students who could pass
this exit exam without going to school. She added that the family
is very important.
Number 1200
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked what is it that constitutes a ninth
grade level of math. He vaguely recalled that when he entered high
school, there was some kind of a test and you were either placed in
algebra or general math. He asked if the exam would be on algebra
or general math.
Number 1239
DR. BUELL answered the test would include a combination of algebra
and general math. She cited an example where students who were
taking calculus and differential equations, taking college courses,
but couldn't pass the math competency exam and had to take a
special class on how to figure out how to do things at that level.
The very highly qualified student has difficulty with dichotomous
choices, they see too many options. Other states have also found
this to be the case.
Number 1271
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER cited his own difficulty with a math exam for
his entrance exam into NorthWestern University, because it had been
so long since he had performed "so called" simpler math problems.
Number 1290
DR. BUELL stated you would not want to assume that just because we
would give the test to ninth graders first that the test would be
at the ninth grade level, DOE would not recommend this. The DOE
would recommend that we begin seeing how many people pass it and
who was going to need remediation prior to the time when they exit
high school. The exam probably ought to be based on what we expect
students to do when they graduate. Some of them will be able to do
that part of it early on and other states have found, within a
population of students, some of them can do it. It doesn't mean
that those students drop out of school. The population that passes
the test is not the population that drops out of school in other
states. The population that doesn't pass is the population that
drops out in other states. You have to set up a program to bolster
those students who have poor skills and give them confidence. This
is true, as well, for able students who fail the test because of
poor test taking skills or the kind of thing that Representative
Porter mentioned.
Number 1343
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN cited a personal example about strengths and
weaknesses in different academic areas.
Number 1381
CHAIRMAN BUNDE mentioned that what was being discussed was core
curriculum and core abilities, what we expect of our average
citizen. Our newspapers are written at an eighth grade level. He
did not expect that we would have a test that would begin to
explore the intensified areas, whether they be science or any other
area. He asked what a high school diploma should mean and stated
that Dr. Buell raised a whole new possibility in the area of
testing. He had an idea that at the end of high school, there
would be this level of expectation on which students would be
tested.
Number 1447
DR. BUELL said she would be happy to get information from other
states and legislatures that have coped with this issue. Other
legislatures have set exit tests, these exit tests are not just
implemented by state departments of education. In the last ten
years, especially during the past five years, when we look at other
states, they're beginning to get reports about their experiences.
She referred to a report from Mississippi where they identified the
things needed to be in place before they imposed a test like this.
The most important thing seems to be, from her personal
perspective, is that we make sure that we come up with a legally
defensible and fair system. Because of this issue, we can't ignore
a system of remediation.
Number 1462
CHAIRMAN BUNDE added that this remediation should be happening now.
Schools probably aren't doing it because they don't realize it
needs to be done, because parents aren't insisting on it or because
students aren't being as responsible as they ought to be.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if she could provide information on testing
for history; state or U.S. history or whatever they have there.
Number 1490
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN cited an example where the set level is 70
percent. He asked if someone could get a 65 percentile in one
area, a 90 percentile in another area, et cetera and then asked if
that student would pass, based on an average figure for those
separate components of the exam.
DR. BUELL said a decision would have to be made. She knew of other
states that averaged the scores out and she would include this in
the information she sent to the committee.
Number 1524
CHAIRMAN BUNDE cited an example where a ninth grader passes the
reading portion and is not able to pass the other components. He
asked if that student would retake the whole test in tenth grade or
just the portions they did not pass. He also asked if they are
taking the same test over and over again. He mentioned that some
tests might be seen as more difficult than others.
DR. BUELL said this was definitely a factor.
Number 1560
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER verified that, with repetitive testing,
separate tests would be needed.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he assumed that to be the case.
DR. BUELL said this is why you could not test every three months,
you couldn't afford it.
Number 1580
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that other states are testing
competency at early ages and asked what kind of tests were being
done, and at what grade levels. He understood that the California
Achievement Test (CAT) was being administered now. He asked if
that could be perceived as a competency test.
Number 1622
DR. BUELL said the CAT was not designed to be a competency test, it
was designed to give information about student performance relative
to the objectives for which the test is done. The concept of
competency needs to be established by someone. The testing company
for the CAT, C.T.B. McGraw Hill has told DOE that they would not
support the use of that test as a competency test. Part of the
reason why it could not be used is that the CAT compares students,
it is normative. It is your performance compared to the students
on whom the test was originally tested, not against a specific
level of expectation. For instance, if everyone did very poorly
you could miss one and be in the 70 percentile or you could miss 12
and be in the 99 percentile because it is all relative to the
original population.
DR. BUELL said for a competency test, you must establish what the
competency is, what the performance is that's acceptable and
measure everyone against the same standard. The type of test which
is based on normative behavior would not function as a competency
test. Unless someone actually went through the test and everyone
agreed that if everyone could answer question 14, then this
question could be placed on a competency test.
Number 1689
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said if our intent was to produce a
knowledgeable and competent citizen, then the earlier that we are
able to measure their level the more likely we could step in with
remediation. He asked what the earliest year should be to
administer a competency test. He suggested it might be fourth
grade, the same year the CAT is administered.
Number 1725
DR. BUELL said he was talking about her opinion now. Based on what
she has seen across the United States, the responsible systems for
this kind of thing start early and they do what is called
benchmarking. They start with what they expect students to be able
to do and then they work back from that and figure out where they
expect students to be by here and by here. In really comprehensive
systems this begins by the end of primary school where they look at
whether students can do the basic mechanics of reading by the end
of third grade. It is not an accident that this particular grade
is one of the President's benchmark years, where he says everyone
should read by fourth grade. It is pretty well established that if
you don't have, by the time you go into fourth grade, the basic
mechanics of reading where you transfer from looking at reading to
reading in content areas then the chances are good that you will
never catch up.
DR. BUELL mentioned other studies which indicate that if certain
things aren't in place when a child enters kindergarten, they may
never catch up. This principle is what Head Start is based on.
There have been a lot of studies done on this issue. Longitudinal
studies of Head Start are 20 years old now and show that fewer Head
Start students are in the correctional system, fewer drop out,
fewer have social problems in high school and so on and so forth.
The earlier you intervene and have expectations and provide
support, it is pretty well established that there is a greater
chance that the student will make it all the way through the
system.
DR. BUELL said this means intervening at the family level, if you
can, because families are so important. There is no other single
factor that would be a better predictor of whether a student would
survive this test then determining the educational support coming
from the family.
Number 1808
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN cited her use of benchmarks by responsible
systems. If the intent is to create a competent citizenry and we
wanted to apply one of these responsible systems here in Alaska,
using benchmarks to allow for remediation, where would those
benchmarks be located.
Number 1860
DR. BUELL said she was not the right person to answer this question
because she did not feel that learners queue up at those levels.
Our system is based on students queuing up at those levels. She
believed that if we have standards for children, they will meet
them at progressively earlier and earlier ages. To say this is the
level of expectation here, there will be a lot of kids who won't
reach it, and a lot of kids who will have reached it earlier.
Parents know that one child will read by this age and another will
read at another age. Children are not all at the same place at
fourth grade, eighth grade or anywhere else, so establishing a
benchmark is complex. It makes more sense, from her point of view,
to establish a benchmark based on the standards; how many kids can
reach this first benchmark, when they reach the first benchmark
where the second benchmark should be so that they can work towards
that goal. This is what standards based education is all about.
DR. BUELL said we test, most, at the fourth, eighth and eleventh
grades. It has become a matter of convention. She was not
convinced that this phenomena was necessarily supported by any
particular research evidence which says those are watershed years,
in fact there is some evidence to the contrary.
Number 1928
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN discussed the variance in i.q. tests, with
margins on either side of the score. He then mentioned people who
have difficulties taking tests, people being sick, angry or having
emotions that make it difficult to take tests. He asked if you
could measure a person's competency on any given test.
Number 1957
DR. BUELL answered that this is how a standardized test is
designed. It is designed to throw out questions where a student
does not perform reliably over time. There is a certain element of
the population that will be highly variable no matter what, the top
and bottom of the bell curve of any norming group. She restated
the question; will there be some students who will perform very
differently from test to test and answered, yes. Will there be
some students who can pass at one time and not pass it the next
year? The answer would be yes, there would be some students who
would perform that way. Will there be some students that will be
competent and can't pass at this time, but could pass it the next
time? The answer would be yes. All of those variables will exist.
Number 1997
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if external forces would affect the
perception of a student's competency, especially those students who
are borderline.
Number 2015
DR. BUELL said this is why science and social studies are pulled
out as separate scores on a standardized test, because it takes
more repetitions or it is harder to get a consistent behavior on
that particular test. For writing, you can develop a pretty
reliable test. In other words, a student is going to perform the
same no matter how many times they take the test which allows the
lumping together for a composite score. There is a reason why a
child's scores for a standardized multiple choice test have scores
that are off by themselves such as spelling, social studies,
science and there are scores that can be lumped together in a
composite because they have higher reliability, because they don't
seem to be influenced by other factors. That is one of the
indicators, there are other reasons as well.
Number 2047
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said people would have the opportunity to take the
test as ninth graders, tenth graders, eleventh graders, twelfth
graders and as HB 146 is written, for three years after that. He
had empathy for those who suffer test anxiety, but at some point
how does test anxiety differ from filling out a job application or
a college application. He reiterated the question of what does
this high school diploma mean.
Number 2089
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said it has been thrown out that there are
some people who can take tests and some who can't. As a result it
has been said that tests aren't really valid because the same two
people would perform differently under certain circumstances. He
asked if this notion has been substantiated.
Number 2103
DR. BUELL answered that there are always going to be some
individuals who can, without substantive knowledge, sit down to a
test that is multiple choice and pass. The Princeton Institute
will charge you $500 to teach you how to be dull for the sake of
your future and raise your SAT scores by 50 points. They are
teaching you to test wisely. That A is the most common answer,
when it is a dichotomous choice do not take more than 15 seconds,
take your first choice without thinking through the problem. If
schooling is teaching you to consider your math carefully, to show
your answer, to visualize while the average amount of time per
question is 16 seconds, then the test score is going to be better
for the student who doesn't do those things. There are students at
every age who take tests well and they may never know the content.
This is the reason why you would not want a simple test, but a
system where this could not happen such as having a writing
assessment. This is why the SAT and other major tests have added
writing samples.
Number 2183
CHAIRMAN BUNDE understood this could happen on multiple choice
tests, but the exit exam he is referring to is mathematics, reading
and writing.
Number 2188
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER presented a scenario where a person with test
anxiety, who knew the knowledge took the exam and did not pass.
Number 2203
DR. BUELL said this is well documented phenomenon in the assessment
literature. She referred to two people who got up to leave the
qualifying examinations at the end of the doctoral program because
they were so nervous. They obviously knew the material, they were
getting A grades, did the papers, but they could not take that test
without folding because they are so nervous. She observed
children, when she was teaching, who could not take tests. The
brain, when it is in threat mode, shuts down to a certain level. If
you have had a very bad experience, it is something that can sit
with your whole life. She questioned how many people would be
affected by this anxiety.
TAPE 97-18, SIDE A
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN BUNDE explained that testing is not unusual for a student
from first grade on, this would just be one more test in a series
of tests that kids have to take. Now, as this exit exam is
conceived, they have four years of high school to attempt this
test, plus an additional three years after school. There will
always be some students on the edge of things that will be
challenged by this sort of a test. Mr. Boyer mentioned some of
these students. We need to be aware that school districts and
teachers will teach the test, to make sure that students know the
test. If this happens then we will have literate students. He had
hopes that we would have Lake Wobegone children, all of them above
average.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE addressed Dr. Buell and said she had given the
committee a great deal to think about. He did not feel comfortable
to move the bill and said it would be scheduled Tuesday, March 18,
1997. He said any discussions should relate to the committee
substitute.
Number 0119
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to conduct, CHAIRMAN BUNDE
adjourned the meeting of the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee at 4:43 p.m.
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