Legislature(1993 - 1994)
10/21/1993 04:00 PM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES
STANDING COMMITTEE
ANCHORAGE, ALASKA
October 21, 1993
4:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Co-Chair
Representative Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair
Representative Bettye Davis
Representative Irene Nicholia, via teleconference
Representative Tom Brice, via teleconference
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Gary Davis, Vice-Chair
Representative Al Vezey
Representative Pete Kott
Representative Harley Olberg
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
How to better serve the needs of university students in
Alaska. Discussion to include WICHE/WAMI, student loan
problems, and any other topics students wish to discuss.
WITNESS REGISTER
DR. MIKE DIMINO
UAA Biomedical Program (WAMI)
University of Alaska, Anchorage
3211 Providence Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
Phone: 786-4789
RAMONA GUYOTE, President
Kodiak Student Association
525 Maple
Kodiak, Alaska 99615
Phone: 486-1985
STEVEN FLOERCHINGER, M.D.
1200 Airport Heights Drive, Suite 220
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
Phone: 277-1040
GREG PARRISH
140 North Pine
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
Phone: 274-3675
NELDA KOECHER
P.O. Box 1442
Nome, Alaska 99762
Phone: 443-2898
ERIC LEEGARD
P.O. Box 32806
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Phone: 465-8778
RACHAEL BERMUDEZ
Prince William Sound Community College
P.O. Box 3123
Valdez, Alaska 99686
Phone: 835-4555
DELBERT COLLETT
Prince William Sound Community College
P.O. Box 1092
Valdez, Alaska 99686
Phone: 835-1092
BRIAN BRUBAKER
University of Alaska, Fairbanks
P.O. Box 750585
Fairbanks, Alaska 99775
Phone: 474-7654
TERYL ELAM
UAA WAMI Medical Student
University of Alaska, Anchorage
1416 West 23rd Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
Phone: 279-3000
KARIN PATTERSON, Student
5325 Sharon Street, Apt. C
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
DAVE DAU
3211 Providence Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
Phone: 562-2660
JOSEPH F. CONNORS
13120 Saunders Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
Phone: 345-5760
RALPH J. McGRATH
Alaska Community College Federation of Teachers
2533 Providence Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99504
Phone: 562-2660
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-73, SIDE A
Number 001
CO-CHAIRMAN BUNDE stated that, as is known, the state is
facing some financial difficulties and the committee wants
to make sure the money spent is serving the greatest needs
and the legislature is being as efficient as it can be.
CHAIR BUNDE asked each person who wished to testify to sign
in, requesting that when they come up to testify, they
identify themselves and their relationship with the
university. He noted that this hearing was being recorded
so that a written copy of the minutes can be prepared. It
was further noted that the following locations were also
on-line if anyone wished to testify or comment: Bethel,
Fairbanks, Juneau, Kodiak, Kotzebue, Ketchikan, Sitka,
Soldotna, Tok and Valdez.
Number 019
CHAIR BUNDE ascertained that the bridge operator was
on-line. He called the meeting of the House HESS Committee
to order at 4:23 p.m., introducing himself and stating that
Representative Bettye Davis and Co-Chair Representative
Cynthia Toohey were in attendance.
Number 035
DR. MIKE DIMINO, Director of the Biomedical Program (WAMI),
University of Alaska, Anchorage, was the first person to
testify. He stated he wanted to explain what WAMI
(Washington, Alaska, Montana & Idaho) is. He also asked
that the committee consider their relationship with the
University of Washington (UW) as being one associated with a
regional medical school.
DR. DIMINO noted that Alaska is one of five states that does
not have a medical or osteopathic school, and sometimes the
question is raised as to why we need a medical school in our
environment. He pointed out that Alaska has the lowest
number of physicians per capita in the nation; one physician
for every 719 people. It was noted by some people that in
Anchorage this is not true. Dr. Dimino stated that the
numbers he received from the Alaska State Medical
Association shows that in Anchorage itself the ratio is
still 1:708. Put into perspective, the next state which has
the poorest ratio of physicians per capita is Mississippi,
with a ratio of 1:676. He felt these numbers warrant some
attention.
DR. DIMINO added to this the fact that the medical
profession in the state of Alaska is aging. Again, using
the Alaska State Medical Association as a source, fifty-two
percent of our physicians are over fifty years of age and
forty percent are over fifty-five years of age. The income
of physicians from the various sources such as PHS and the
military has clearly changed.
DR. DIMINO acknowledged that in the short term we could
solve a lot of budgetary problems by cutting our medical
program out, but he raised the question as to whether that
was in the best long-term interest of Alaska. To show that
UW has contributed significantly to the number of physician
positions in our state, he told the committee that of those
Alaskans who went through WAMI, fifty-one percent have
returned to practice in Alaska. In states that have their
own medical schools, the number of state resident students
practicing in the state in which they are a resident and in
which they were a medical student, the percentage is
approximately thirty-five percent.
Observing that this is sometimes viewed as an "elitist"
program, DR. DIMINO said that of the 50 students taken into
the program thus far, five of the students have been Native,
thirty percent have been from families where neither parent
has a college degree, and forty-four percent are female.
DR. DIMINO commented that several goals have been set for
WAMI and he felt that all of these goals have been met.
DR. DIMINO suggested there are several resources available
through UW that would not be possible unless we had a
medical school affiliation. He said he could go through
this list of resources, but suspected he was running out of
his allotted time to testify.
CHAIR BUNDE asked if there were any questions at this point
from the committee. There were no questions.
Number 074
DR. DIMINO asked to mention briefly that, obviously, WAMI
educates medical students and he felt they have done an
extraordinary job in that respect, especially here in
Anchorage. He wanted the committee to be aware of the fact
that from the University of Washington School of Medicine
the following things are available, stating:
"We have the Medcon line which amounts to about 3500 to 4000
calls from Alaskan physicians to physicians at UW. This is
a referral service that does not cost the State of Alaska
any additional money.
"We have a Medex program, which is the PA program, and each
year there are at least five or six Alaskans who are
accepted into the program. In fact, there is a satellite
program in Sitka now that has twelve Alaskan participants.
"The Pacific Northwest Regional Health Sciences Library is
at UW and we are part of that, which permits opportunities
for our physicians.
"Itinerant clinics in genetics and birth defects through UW
come through the state.
"Collaborative fertility clinics.
"CME opportunities for our physicians are available.
"We have several programs which encourage under-represented
minorities to enter the medical field; and in fact, three of
our Native students have gone through that program.
"We have RAHEC which is Rural Alaska Health Education Center
that had its genesis and indeed its funding for the first
seven years through UW.
"An underserved rural area opportunities program which
permits our medical students, as well as other students from
UW, to see our state.
"We also, through UW, have been part of the Community Health
Services Development Program and one of the first hospitals
in that study was the hospital in Seward.
"And last, but not least, we are now working very hard in
putting a family medicine residency in the state, realizing
there is only one other state that does not have a residency
program, and that is in Montana. That is very important in
the long term interest of the state as far as increasing the
number of our physicians."
Dr. Dimino left some handouts with staff.
Number 098
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE, speaking via teleconference from
Fairbanks, stated that Dr. Dimino had made mention that
RAHEC had been funded for the past seven years, one way or
another, through UW programs. He asked if that funding is
continuing, and if so, what is happening with it.
DR. DIMINO responded that federal legislation has built into
AHEC programs, of which RAHEC is a part, a termination of
seven years. After seven years, it is expected that if the
program continues, the state must pick up that cost.
For the present 1993/1994 year, the state of Alaska, DR.
DIMINO thought, has put in approximately $150,000. That
then permitted RAHEC to have some not exactly matching
funds, but additional funds made available because there was
a state contribution. In the future, if RAHEC is to
continue, the state must support it.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE acknowledged that was on the capital
side of things that were put in through what he believed was
discretionary money. On the viability of the program, he
asked Dr. Dimino how he felt the program worked.
DR. DIMINO responded that he was very aware of RAHEC and, he
thought, especially in the last three to four years, not
only has focused upon a particular mission in the state that
he found was very successful, but he also believed it was
part of our overall health needs in the state. Dr. Domino
stated he would like to see RAHEC continue to be funded, and
he clarified that he speaks not for the university, but for
his very own personal view on that.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he would appreciate any type of
support that Dr. Domino might be able to pass on to both
this committee and the subcommittee on the budget for the
Department of Health and Social Services (DHSS) so that the
legislators can look at this issue next session.
DR. DOMINO confirmed they are working with RAHEC on that,
and the committee will hear more from their joint ventures.
Number 126
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY, regarding the 1:708 ratio of
physicians per capita, asked if this ratio includes the
Indian Health Service.
DR. DIMINO responded that this ratio does include all the
physicians in the area, stating that they asked the Alaska
State Medical Association specifically to include the
physicians at Alaska Native Medical Center (ANMC). He
assumed these numbers were accurate.
Number 130
REPRESENTATIVE B. DAVIS asked if the ratio figures also
included military doctors.
DR. DIMINO responded that he did not think the military
physicians were included due to the obvious transience of
moving back and forth to different duty stations.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked what the ratio is in the United
States.
DR. DIMINO responded that it is approximately one physician
per 560 people (1:560).
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY commented that we are not really out
of line.
CHAIR BUNDE mentioned a concern that he had was that the
program is very expensive, approximately $800,000 per year
for the ten students at the University of Alaska (UAA).
DR. DIMINO said he brought a copy of the budget, thinking
the committee might ask that question, and he believes the
budget to be roughly $750,000. However, he pointed out
approximately $65,000 of that comes from the tuition the
students are charged - their students pay a higher tuition.
CHAIR BUNDE calculated this would then make the cost per
student about $70,000 per year.
DR. DIMINO said he felt it was inappropriate to take the
budget number and divide it by students. He asked the
committee to broaden the concept of what WAMI is. It is not
just educating ten students.
Number 156
CHAIR BUNDE asked for clarification of whether fifty percent
of the students in the program come back to Alaska or fifty
percent of Alaskan students were in the program.
DR. DIMINO said he could give the committee the names of all
the physicians who were in the program and of those who had
finished and where they are located. He does have numbers
in his statistics which substantiate that fifty-one percent
of the Alaskans in the program either have practiced in the
state or are still practicing here. He went on to say there
is another group of physicians who did undergraduate medical
education at UW and are now in the state practicing and
another group of physicians who did residency programs in
association with UW who are now practicing in the state.
These physicians comprise what he calls an equivalent return
rate. He said he tries not to use this equivalent return
rate number because it causes confusion, but the fifty-one
percent he is proud of and can document.
Number 166
CHAIR BUNDE asked that with the state investing
approximately $160,000 in the education of each of these
doctors, would not one hundred percent return to Alaska be a
more defensible number.
DR. DIMINO agreed that it would be the ideal and the same
argument could also be used any time we educate someone in
business or engineering, although the amount is not as high.
Maybe we should expect them to come back to the state, he
suggested.
Number 170
CHAIR BUNDE stated he is not opposed to medicine as a field
of study, he just recognizes this as a very expensive
program and asked how many business degrees could we produce
per doctor educated. He stated the average degree here
costs about $40,000 and would therefore produce four degrees
per the cost of educating one doctor.
DR. DIMINO observed that if you get ill he doesn't think you
would want a business major taking care of you, which is one
of the things to be considered down the line.
Number 176
CHAIR BUNDE inquired as to how many of the physicians who
are training through WAMI are training to be primary care
physicians.
Number 179
DR. DIMINO said he could not give an exact percentage of the
number of those who have finished which are now in primary
care. He did say, however, that the emphasis at UW has
changed dramatically in probably the last five years, such
that the graduating class, (which, by the way, would have
been the first group of Anchorage WAMI students to go
through) had fifty-five percent who entered primary care.
Dr. Dimino indicated that at fifty-five percent, UW was well
ahead of the national trend or national average, which he
thought was around twenty-five to thirty percent.
Number 188
CHAIR BUNDE stated that in order to keep this very expensive
program here, there has been some discussion in the
legislature concerning the fact that Alaska needs doctors
and because Alaska is investing a great deal of money in the
education of these doctors, perhaps there ought to be a
requirement that they do come back and work in Alaska for a
period of time. He noted that, of course, we do not need
more plastic surgeons, we need primary care physicians. If
these students were required to return to Alaska and if they
were required to specialize in primary care, or not
specialize, he inquired as to how that might affect the
student population of the program.
Number 198
DR. DIMINO responded that his personal feeling, and he was
not representing UW in this situation, is that it would not
adversely affect the applicant pool. What he did suggest is
that no restrictions be put on the return of the students
outside of the fact that he or she return to Alaska. If
there is an opening for a cardiovascular surgeon, a plastic
surgeon, a pediatrician, or a family doctor, then we need to
fill that position. If we just say primary care, that is
only taking care of one aspect. It is true we have
specialists in the state but, he stated; for example, the
cardiologists in this city alone are overworked. Outside of
the city, he was not aware of a board certified cardiologist
in the rest of the state. There are cardiologists, but not
board certified. He thought if the committee were to say
that primary care physicians are the only ones that will be
given a loan forgiveness or pay back, or whatever phrase is
used, this might not be an enlightened view. He had no
difficulty with saying there should be some pay back to the
state. Personally, in the academic world, he felt you do
not like to see these kinds of obligations. If he had his
way, he would rather say that someone could cross the state
borders and go to medical school in California, in Nevada,
in New York, if they choose, and forget about borders. He
acknowledged that the reality is that someone is paying for
it and there are some requirements.
CHAIR BUNDE pointed out that the first year here at UAA is a
$700,000 impact to the budget. He asked why that first year
is done here and questioned if it could be done more cheaply
if they went from day one to the University of Washington.
DR. DIMINO responded that if this were done, several aspects
of the program would be lost. One of the key factors why
this program has been so successful in returning students,
in his estimation (when it was in Fairbanks and they like to
think in Anchorage as well) is that the program has the
Alaskan here. The Alaskan is being trained to be a
physician in Alaska. He stressed that, indeed, if one looks
at the course content, especially in clinical medicine, a
tremendous amount of time is spent telling these students
what it is like to practice medicine in Alaska. The program
even sent them out for one week into the bush, so that they
would have that experience and see what it is like. Dr.
Dimino explained that they keep contact with their students
all the time so that as one issue of recruitment, that is
something he would not want the program to lose. In
addition, he felt the program has had an impact on the
sciences. The sciences are an expensive proposition at any
university. This is one of the few opportunities where the
program had a chance to help our science community and, he
believes, the program has done that.
DR. DIMINO further stressed that there is certainly a
research emphasis now that has been on the campus in this
program, and most of their faculty have extra mural funding,
which he can document if the committee chooses to see the
documentation. He felt this was a big step forward. This
then means, in his view, that our undergraduate students not
only can have some advanced courses at the 300 and 400
level, which frees the faculty to teach 100 and 200 level
courses, but also means that students now have a research
exposure which Dr. Dimino thinks is valuable. He thought
also that if we are simply buying positions at another
medical school, the committee can do that, there are
programs like that in the country, but the difficulty with
that is there is no way of hooking that student and
attracting that student back to the state.
DR. DIMINO advised that the committee keep in mind that in
addition to the way this is set up, there are some
clerkships and some clinical experiences that the students
can have in Alaska.
Number 244
CHAIR BUNDE commented that the hook would be, "Come back to
Alaska or don't get $160,000 in state money."
Number 246
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked if there are any requirements
that state a student must do his residency in Alaska if
trained through the WAMI program.
DR. DIMINO responded that there are no residency programs in
the state of Alaska at the present time.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked if interns are sent back to
Alaska to the Native villages, to Ketchikan, once they
graduate from medical school.
Number 254
DR. DIMINO said there is no requirement, at this time, for
anyone in WAMI to return to the state of Alaska.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY stated she felt that is certainly
something we need, especially in light of the new push for
health care, and this is something we ought to start looking
into. She further stressed she felt it is an absolute must
that we (1) educate primary care physicians because that is
what we are lacking; and, (2) that they come back to the
state for at least five years, then maybe we could forgive
their loan. She suggested this is something which requires
working together to resolve these issues.
Number 260
DR. DIMINO indicated he would be glad to work with the
committee on this because he does not think this is
inappropriate. Again, however, he suggested it be shaped so
that it is done in the best interest of the state in the
long run. He acknowledged that primary care is certainly
important to us, but specialists should not be excluded from
coming back. He said we do need specialists to fill the
loss of specialists that we are going to see in five to ten
years. He went on to say it is fine to specify we will send
someone out into a rural community, but his argument is
still that if there is an opening for a physician in
Anchorage, and he or she can find a position in Anchorage,
obviously we have a need for that person here. He went on
to indicate he would like to see incentives that would
encourage people to go out into the rural areas and he has
no problem with this.
Number 272
CHAIR BUNDE asked, because this is such an expensive
program, what Dr. Dimino's reactions would be to making part
of the tuition alone, which costs $120,000 more than it does
for a business degree, a loan. He questioned how Dr. Dimino
felt about the medical students having a loan, an obligation
of $100,000 when they graduate.
Number 278
DR. DIMINO acknowledged this is the issue the committee has
been discussing. He said he would be willing to work with
the committee in shaping something that he thinks is not
only in the best interest of the state, but, of course, in
the best interest of the students. He said he thinks it
could be done if phrased and put together in a package that
is useful. He would ask, and he felt the committee would
agree, that the rules not be changed for the students who
are already in the program, feeling this would be
inappropriate. He indicated that for future students the
committee might want to shape it somewhat differently.
CHAIR BUNDE agreed that the committee would not do anything
retroactive and recognized that this was all in the
preliminary discussion stage.
Number 288
CHAIR BUNDE asked how many of the students are indeed
students who would be financially unable to attend medical
school if they were not in this program. Specifically, do
they come from a background of means? He also stated he
would be very interested in knowing, in the recruitment of
these students, if new requirements are coming down the
pike, what the reactions are of the students.
Number 300
DR. DIMINO responded that the cost of the education is
certainly on the minds of anyone interested in going to
medical school. There are tremendous debts generated at most
medical schools. He noted that UW students usually have a
debt of somewhere around $50,000 - $60,000 and it is
climbing because the tuition was increased again. Dr.
Dimino stated that one medical school where he worked prior
to coming to UW had students who had debts in excess of
$100,000 - $120,000 and yet they still were coming. Dr.
Dimino said that these students scared the faculty because
the faculty did not know what the students were going to do
to pay off their debts. He indicated, as the committee
might guess, that the students that had those kinds of debts
were students from disadvantaged backgrounds, and that is
certainly not the way he wants to see it go. He suggested
that if the committee is going to come up with a mechanism
of increasing the tuition or some kind of pay back, the
committee try to be realistic and try to do something on a
need basis. He did not want to see those students who come
from backgrounds of need frightened off.
Number 300
CHAIR BUNDE stated that this was the thrust of his question;
if you are the son or daughter of a doctor, do you need the
same tuition help as if you are the son or daughter of a
single parent who is making minimum wage? He pointed out
that when we have equal tuition for everyone, actually it is
a great subsidy for the wealthy and it is not much of a
subsidy for the people who are not very wealthy.
Number 314
CHAIR BUNDE thanked Dr. Dimino for his time and testimony,
and asked Representative Brice if he had any further
comment.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he had no further comment, but
also thanked Dr. Dimino for his time and testimony.
Number 323
CHAIR BUNDE recognized that there was someone in Kodiak who
would like to testify, RAMONA GUYOTE, acting president of
the Kodiak College Student Association. She said she was
basically just there to listen to the testimony and to
express their concerns about the cost of education and the
interest rate the students are being charged.
Number 337
CHAIR BUNDE said he understands their concerns. He
explained that he is also a member of the Post-Secondary
Education Committee and that they had received a
communication from fourteen different campuses stating the
students (1) would like a lower rate of interest on their
student loan, and (2) would like a higher limit on the loan.
He made the observation that the loan amount has not
increased and the cost of living has gone up. He noted that
this is a double-edged sword for those in the legislature
because one of the great concerns is that students are now
being graduated with $30,000 and $40,000 of debt. That, he
stated, frankly scares the legislature, who acknowledge this
is an awful burden for someone fresh out of college. He
further noted that the student has the choice whether or not
to take that burden on, but sometimes when the choice of
going to school is take a loan or do not go to school, he
wonders how much choice the student has.
Number 337
CHAIR BUNDE said the interest rate is now fixed at eight
percent. However, if the true interest rate was actually
calculated, taking into account no interest is paid while in
school and the year of grace after graduation, the actual
rate is somewhere around five percent. If the legislature
truly floated interest rates and made it reflect financial
reality, the students would probably be paying closer to
eleven or twelve percent interest. The student loan fund at
this point is not self-supporting, Chair Bunde said, and if
the legislature does not do something to make it
self-supporting by the year 2000 there probably will be no
student loan fund.
Number 362
MS. GUYOTE thanked the Representative from Kodiak for his
comments and said there also has to be consideration for
educating welfare recipients to get them off the programs.
This is a big concern -- when a single parent is trying to
get off the system, education needs to be kept as an
obtainable goal.
Number 370
CHAIR BUNDE agreed and reflected her concerns. He
recognized that the choice between assuming a $20,000,
$30,000, or $40,000 debt or not going to school is often not
a viable choice for many students. He stated the
legislature is very aware of this.
Number 375
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said she would like to see people
realize that this is a problem and to remember it when there
is a choice between staying in school or not staying in high
school, so that they can continue their education. It is a
lot easier to train a high school graduate right out of
school than it is somebody who is thirty or thirty-five
years of age and has been out in the market place.
Representative Toohey stated she knows this from experience
because she was a high school drop-out.
Number 384
CHAIR BUNDE asked if there was anyone in Fairbanks who
wished to testify.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE responded that they are just there to
observe and there was no one waiting to testify.
Number 390
DR. STEVEN FLOERCHINGER was called as the next person to
testify. He identified himself, saying he practices medicine
in Anchorage and is a specialist in the areas of general and
thoracic surgery. He stated he was before the committee
today to discuss the importance of the WAMI program to the
state of Alaska. Of primary importance with this program is
the fact that WAMI gives the opportunities for medical
education to the people of Alaska. He said he is an Alaskan.
He grew up in Anchorage and is a graduate of Dimond High
School. His family all remains in the state. He is not the
child of a two physician family; in fact, he is the only
physician in his family for many generations. He
acknowledged that the committee has mentioned medical
education is very expensive and he confirmed for the
committee that, indeed, it is very expensive, probably the
most expensive area of education that one could pursue. The
WAMI program, he said, does provide the opportunity for
people to get such an education when otherwise they may not
have been able to. He stated he would have been one of
those individuals because the only opportunity he had to
obtain an education in medicine was through the WAMI
program.
DR. FLOERCHINGER pointed out that there is a program known
as WICHE, of which he felt the committee was well aware, and
it was his experience at the time of his application to
medical school that most of the states participating in the
WICHE program for medicine actually provide more lip service
than actual participation. There were several states that
he applied to, none of which were interested in taking WICHE
students the year that he applied.
At the request of Representative Toohey, DR. FLOERCHINGER
clarified that WICHE stands for Western Interstate
Commission on Higher Education.
DR. FLOERCHINGER commented there are several other things
that have already been mentioned that he would like to
address. Addressing the subject of the need for primary
care, from the perspective of a specialist he stated it has
been tossed around a lot lately, in this age of health care
reform, that we have a great need for primary physicians and
this is true in Alaska as much as anywhere else. However,
he cautioned anyone from believing that there is not a need
for specialists. He offered a few numbers for Anchorage --
there are ten people in Anchorage practicing general surgery
in the private world, covering a population of approximately
230,000 in the city alone. However, services are provided
for many people coming in from the outside world. The
American College of Surgeons gives a quote of approximately
10,000 people to support the practice of one general
surgeon. If you take the ten people practicing private
general surgery in our community, that means that we have
one surgeon for every 23,000 people and, in reality, it is
much higher than that. Of those ten surgeons, two are
preparing to retire within the next two to three years.
DR. FLOERCHINGER, recognizing that Chair Bunde had given an
example of a plastic surgeon, stated that indeed this an
example of an area as highly specialized as one can get. He
explained there are three board-certified plastic surgeons
in Anchorage, one of whom is due to retire within the next
two years. With these people participating in the care of
burn patients and other thermal injuries, he has found that
it takes three to four months to get one of his patients in
to see these physicians for any form of elective procedure.
DR. FLOERCHINGER, commenting on Chair Bunde's mentioning of
business degrees taking four years and costing substantially
less than a medical degree, stated he has approximately
fifteen years of education invested in getting to the point
where he can practice the art he does in this community. He
acknowledged that he practices in a much more highly
specialized area. It is very expensive to obtain an
education in this area; however, there is no way that one
can practice medicine of any type with less than
approximately twelve years of formal education.
DR. FLOERCHINGER also acknowledged that Chair Bunde had made
mention about the possibility of having interns come back to
the state for a portion of their training. He offered
wholehearted support for this as something that could be
done. It has been his experience that the education he
received in the state of Alaska was outstanding And was one
of the primary reasons he was motivated to come back here
and practice. Unfortunately, he observed, the decision as to
where one will land for their post-graduate training, which
is required to get licensed and specialized, is not made
entirely by the individual. This decision is made by the
American Council on Graduate Medical Education. They have a
program that assigns people to specific residencies where
they will rank the ones they want, but the individuals will
not necessarily go where they have a wish to go. Individual
programs are responsible for where people go to receive
their training. Dr. Floerchinger agreed that it would be
nice if every Alaskan trained through WAMI could come back
to do some of their post-graduate training here, but he does
not see how this can be done unless we have some form of
residency training in our state. He hopes that one day this
will happen and he understands that this is under
consideration.
Number 493
CHAIR BUNDE acknowledged that Dr. Floerchinger had mentioned
the older doctors retiring and stated he admires the doctors
greatly as practitioners of the healing art and also stated
they are good businessmen -- they have to be or they don't
stay in business. He felt certain that when an opening
becomes available in a lucrative practice there are doctors
who are smart enough in other parts of the country to see
and fill these openings, even if they are not Alaskan
students. To say that the people retiring will leave a hole
that will not be filled, he felt, was not entirely accurate.
Number 504
DR. FLOERCHINGER clarified that what he meant by bringing up
the numbers he did was to point out that he doesn't want
people to believe that there is only a need for primary care
specialists in our community. He felt we could use many
people in the specialties in Anchorage. He pointed out
there is a shortage of physicians in our state that is
across the board, not limited to any one specialty or one
type of practice. He agreed that there are people who will
come in to fill the vacated spots; it is not easy to get
people to fill those spots. He emphasized there are a
number of physicians who are actively seeking folks to come
in and join the group that is practicing surgery in this
community, but pointed out there are only so many physicians
doing surgery. He said it is not easy to get people to come
to Alaska.
Responding to Chair Bunde, DR. FLOERCHINGER clarified he is
a graduate of the WAMI program, having begun the program in
1983 when it was in Fairbanks. Chair Bunde observed that
some of the qualifications the committee is looking at
obviously would not have prevented Dr. Floerchinger from
returning to Alaska, because he has.
CHAIR BUNDE asked, if part of the program was a loan, and
Dr. Floerchinger faced a substantial debt, as many graduates
from medical school do, would that have kept him from the
program?
Number 532
DR. FLOERCHINGER responded that this would not have kept him
from the program. As a matter of fact, he does have
substantial debt; his debt at the time he graduated was
approximately $63,000. If that loan were to have come from
the state of Alaska, with whatever requirements attached
(and in fact part of his loan did come from Alaska) if part
of this program were a loan then, no, he would not have a
problem with that. It would have been impossible, he
stated, for him to attain this education without this
program (1) because it was the only opportunity offered to
him and (2) if he had had to pay for or obtain funding to
attend a private program or a private school in the states.
It is not likely he would have been able to do that without
the state of Alaska's help. He explained he came from a
very simple, middle-class family.
Number 551
CHAIR BUNDE reflected that it costs $70,000 per year for
those students, just for the educational portion, and he
knows there are other aspects. For the 40 students total,
it is $1.6 million per year. Chair Bunde suggested these
students could be sent Outside and set up in housekeeping
perhaps cheaper than we could have the program here.
Number 561
DR. FLOERCHINGER emphasized that one of the most important
factors involved in encouraging people to come back is their
interaction with the medical community here. He felt the
interaction he had with the medical community in Fairbanks
promoted his coming back here. He had two opportunities to
return to the state, one in Fairbanks and one in Anchorage,
and he chose Anchorage; but if he had not the exposure to
Alaska, he would not have known what was available.
Number 563
CHAIR BUNDE said it may be a moot point, because he suspects
there will be a requirement for students to return. He
stressed he is not anti-education, having spent his whole
adult life in education, but he is trying to balance many
hats. Roads are not being paved and there are people who
would much rather have that road paved than see a student
have a great subsidy to go to medical school. He said all
voices have equal weight as the legislature tries to sort
out the budget. The income is diminishing. At this point
right now the state is about $100 million out of whack as
far as balancing the budget and there is no way to know
where that money is coming from. Chair Bunde emphasized
that this is not a personal attack; the committee is just
asking for information.
Number 585
DR. FLOERCHINGER said he simply wished to give the committee
the perspective of someone who is practicing medicine here.
As one who is up against the problems faced by those who do
practice medicine in the state, he wanted to stress how
important this program is to those physicians who are here
and how important this program will continue to be to the
state of Alaska in the future.
CHAIR BUNDE said he appreciated Dr. Floerchinger's
perspective and felt it was valuable to have his testimony.
He thanked Dr. Floerchinger for taking the time to appear
before the committee.
Number 594
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY stated that if funds are tight and the
only way the legislature can continue funding is to make
sure that students come back and "serve time" in the state,
then that is something that will have to be done.
DR. FLOERCHINGER responded that he suspects there would not
be a lot of opposition to that from the students who are
participating. He acknowledged that he obviously could not
speak for all of them, but his personal opinion was that it
would not have bothered him.
Number 617
CHAIR BUNDE clarified that GREG PARRISH would be testifying
next, here in Anchorage. He said when Mr. Parrish finishes
his testimony, the committee would go to Nome, Tok,
Anchorage, then Juneau for testimony.
Number 620
MR. GREG PARRISH stated his name and the fact that he is a
member of the Physics Department at UAA. He said he was
upset about the tendency of the university to parade in
public and justify a need for more funding based upon
teaching, primarily in the lower division, and then once the
funding comes through, to switch it over into more or less
research type faculty. There was a specific instance he was
referring to in the physics department. He stated he is the
only full-time teaching member of the physics department, in
fact the only member since, of the other two people, one is
physics astronomy and one is physics chemistry. He
explained that they are part of a joint physics/chemistry
department. His understanding is that for years it has been
agreed that the next priority for a physics hire would be a
person to teach physics labs, essentially a lab manager who
would hire adjuncts who would teach the labs themselves. It
is a very specialized teaching position, probably a staff
position rather than a faculty position. He found that
without his knowledge, and as far as he knows, without the
knowledge of the other physics person, last year the
department chair, as part of the submission package, had
switched this over to a faculty position, and in fact a
3:1:1 position, which is one which has a research portion in
the contract. The chair had used the justifications for the
lab position, but attached a research qualification to it.
This completely turned the whole position over. Once that
happens, as a practical matter, research becomes dominant.
Once you have a traditional department, the researchers
always will run things if they can. He suggested that
research be funded as an end in itself, rather than funding
for faculty and then turning the funds to research.
TAPE 93-73, SIDE B
Number 651
MR. PARRISH continued by stating one faculty member was on
sabbatical and the other member of the physics department
left for the Bush. The positions came through and he
attempted to get something done about this with the new
chair then, and ultimately the new chair was told by the
dean that things had been set in concrete and that this was
now, what he calls, a research position, one that had a
research portion. He felt that as a practical matter the
research faculty works very hard (he was not arguing that)
and they have to concentrate so much on research, there is
no way it is practical to expect them to do much lower
division teaching, particularly the basic grunt work, the
lab work and so on. He testified that when the hiring
committee was formed, he was a member. In fact, the
situation became worse because the research people in
physics, and with some backing from the chemistry people,
wanted then to basically make this a research dominant
position; that is, only make the application open to certain
types of researchers whose specialty would more or less mesh
with the researchers we have right now.
MR. PARRISH went on to say they started out with something
justified on a purely teaching basis, with the only research
mentioned at all was the fact that it was a 3:1:1 position
buried in the fine print. Then an attempt was made so that
only people within certain areas of physics could even apply
for the job, based upon the research areas, not teaching,
because that had nothing to do with it; lower division
teaching is essentially the same for everyone. There was a
desire to specify certain researchers only, to even be
possible candidates. He felt he managed to block that
temporarily, but in actual fact, he said, every time he
thinks he has the block in place, the position comes up
again. He was assured by the committee chair just before
coming to this meeting that the issue is dead, but he said
he is aware that there is movement in the background, and
has been for the last several days, to try to bring this
back up. He felt the only way he has been able to limit
this much, and it has caused a great deal of hard feelings,
is that one 3:1:1 member of the committee agreed that
basically, although he personally thought research was the
way to go, research should be justified if you want research
positions and justify teaching positions if you want
teaching positions and not use one for the other.
Number 675
MR. PARRISH testified that they also put the only black
woman in the department on their selection committee,
frankly, for racial and sexual balance on the committee. He
said she is a member who voted with him. Had it not been
for these circumstances, he stated, this would have been by
now a totally research-dominated position. What will happen
in the meeting tomorrow, he said, he simply does not know.
He has been assured before that, at least, they will be
advertising on a teaching level, but he felt that in any
case they will end up with someone whose job will involve a
significant portion of research. He not only felt the
person selected will be under tremendous pressure to produce
research, and this is not a good place for physics research,
but will have very little time in reality to do basically
the grunt work that has been done with the labs and so on.
He said that this past summer he did this basically for
free, setting it up, organizing, and doing the hiring. He
explained that in the past Don Martens did this when he was
department chair, because, again, he was getting some chair
relief. The current chair is a chemist. Chemistry has
someone to do this; they have a technician/lab teacher;
physics does not.
MR. PARRISH felt this should have been a first priority, but
the fact is that it has been turned completely over, against
everything that was agreed to; it had been done without his
knowledge, and he was extremely upset about it, seeing it as
simply part and parcel of the overall problem. It was his
understanding through the grapevine, although he admitted he
had no proof, that other positions that went up the line as
4:1 are now trying to be converted into 3:1:1's with the
university.
At this point, MR. PARRISH said, he was getting extremely
upset about this. This has been a real battle, putting
tremendous pressure on the one 3:1:1 member of the committee
who did agree with him that this was basically not an honest
thing to do. He also said pressure has been applied to him,
although in a lesser degree, because he was so solid and it
was known that he was not going to give. He felt something
needed to be done about this. If the legislature is going
to be prepared to fund research, he said he would have no
objection. He said there are great reasons to fund research
as an end in itself. If the legislature was to have the
university say they do not really care about teaching for
this position, it is purely for research, not primarily to
promote lower division teaching, teaching of labs and so on,
then if it is funded, he would feel fine about it. If the
legislators feel they can go to their constituents and
explain these funded positions are for research, he felt
again this would be acceptable to him. However, he did not
feel it was fine when something which was originally set up
for essentially a teaching position, and a very specialized
teaching position, much more specialized than his own 4:1
position, gets converted over and starts becoming research
oriented. As a practical matter, as long as there is any
flexibility whatsoever, the 3:1:1 are the most dominate of
the faculty in academics -- they are research faculty
dominated. Their mind-set is such that research will always
be the dominant feature. If someone comes in to visit from
another campus, the first question is, "What is your
research area?" Mr. Parrish said they are usually
flabbergasted to find that he does not have one, that he is
a pure teacher, and this is the sort of thing he has to deal
with over and over. The standard theme seems to be, if we
are a university, we must do it this way. He said his own
attitude is that UAA is not that kind of university.
Ultimately UAA is a university because the state calls them
one, but this is primarily a teaching area, he thinks.
Number 707
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked Mr. Parrish if he was at all
nervous about the possibility his job may be terminated
because of his testimony.
MR. PARRISH responded that he was not, and as a practical
matter, he was tenured.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY inquired as to when a person is hired
for a physics, or chemistry, or nursing teaching job,
whether or not there are specifics in that job description
that say the person will spend so many hours researching.
MR. PARRISH responded that there are no such specifics in a
job description for a teaching job.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said, then there should be no problem.
If a person was hired for a teaching job, then they should
teach.
MR. PARRISH clarified that the whole point is the job is
specified for teaching, but once you go 3:1:1, then research
is built in.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked for further clarification on
what 3:1:1 means.
Number 717
MR. PARRISH explained 3:1:1. He said normally the
university divides the teachers work into five parts. In a
3:1:1 faculty, three parts would be teaching, one part would
be research, and one part would be service. A 4:1 faculty,
like he is, has four parts teaching and one part service.
So, the subject job is going out as 3:1:1, which means that
there definitely will be a research requirement built in;
the person absolutely must produce publishable research or
will not get tenured. It is a life or death issue for them;
a person like that really cannot afford to concentrate too
much on lower division teaching and, in fact, if they are
really successful in research, what they try for is research
grants; then they buy themselves out of the classroom,
certainly out of the lower division teaching, and then they
try to teach specialty courses in upper division. He stated
that UAA has no physics degree. There is, therefore, no
reason to have upper division teaching, but, in fact, he is
already finding some of the other members of the department
are trying to start putting in upper division courses for
next fall, in part, he thinks, on the strength of this new
position. So, he sees the whole thing as a new loss, if
anything.
Number 727
CHAIR BUNDE told Representative Brice that he would see that
he gets a copy of the written material referred to, as well
as materials from the committee meeting yesterday.
CHAIR BUNDE commented that Professor Parrish had addressed a
problem that the legislature was very aware of and concerned
about, and that is, with the decreasing revenue stream, how
does the legislature maximize the impact of the dollars
spent on education to be of benefit to the greatest number
of people. The catch words used to be that the state and
the university were going to have to learn how to do more
with less because there is less money available. Chair
Bunde said he frankly thought we are to the point where we
have to do less with less and have to decide what our
priorities are. He felt there was a considerable sentiment
in the legislature to see the greatest number of students
served per dollar, which creates a need for efficiency and
effectiveness.
Number 750
MR. PARRISH wanted to make it very clear that the people he
was talking about are not devils incarnate; many of them are
personal friends. Research dominant positions are basically
a mind-set, that universities do it this way, that we are a
university, that, therefore, we must do it this way. He
emphasized that the committee should not get the idea that
these people are in any way doing anything that they
themselves would consider wrong. It was just that they see
themselves belonging to a great world of scholarship. He
said he sees himself and the others as working essentially
for the state of Alaska and he thinks this is a real
distinct difference.
Number 755
CHAIR BUNDE replied that he thought it has been said on this
campus many times before, "Reasonable people can disagree
and some reasonable people can be very disagreeable."
Number 767
MS. NELDA KOECHER, testifying from Nome, introduced herself
as a student at Northwest Community College. Responding to
the committee having asked how to better serve the needs of
students, she felt the needs of the rural areas could better
be served by having more variety in degree programs. She is
a single mother, working full-time for the criminal justice
bills, and by default she has ended up in the social work
program, because that is all that is offered in Nome other
than education and business. She felt the course offerings
were inadequate. Also, Fairbanks does not take or give out
"Perkin's loans," which would be very beneficial to the
criminal justice field because they do have a program where
those loans can be used and be forgiven through the federal
government for correctional officers or those who work in
the correctional field. She also emphasized that the
student loan forgiveness clause being reinstated would be
very helpful to rural students, even if it was only
partially forgiven.
MS. KOECHER felt another thing that would be great in Nome
would be the offering of more vocational programs. She
stated there are a lot of people in Nome who do not work
because of the fact that there are no vocational programs.
Number 790
CHAIR BUNDE, commenting on the forgiveness portion of the
loan program, said that when this was originally in
existence, frankly, the state of Alaska was in the business
of giving away money. The interest rate was nominal, there
was a big forgiveness chunk, and when you defaulted on your
loan, they did not make any real effort to track you down
and make you pay. As he mentioned to a person testifying
earlier, the student loan program is not financially sound;
it is costing more money to run the program than the program
produces; and if the forgiveness program is reinstituted,
the student loan program would run out of money rather soon.
While he understood this would be an asset to many students,
he felt this would not be an option available to the
legislature. Chair Bunde thanked Nelda Koecher for her
testimony.
Number 806
CHAIR BUNDE asked for testimony from Tok and was told that
the participant who wished to testify had to leave, but
would send in written testimony. The bridge operator
reported that Juneau had someone ready to testify.
Number 811
MR. ERIC LEEGARD, from Juneau, introduced himself, saying he
is a former community college teacher and now teaches at the
university full-time. He teaches boat building, drafting,
wood working, and what the university calls "Hard
Vocational," this year called "Smokestack Industries." He
brought up what he felt was a lack of forethought and
on-going vocational programs in Southeast. He said
vacancies are not filled when someone terminates their
employment, and the program dies due to a lack of
instructors. When they moved into their new marine
technology facilities, they had nine instructors. They now
have five positions. When they started in September, they
had only three instructors to fill those positions. They
have been able to pick up one other instructor and this was
the first time they have hired a new full-time instructor
since they started losing instructors. He said Ketchikan
had two full-time vocational instructors last year. There
are none this year. He understands they do not intend to
refill those positions. Sitka had one and one-half
full-time vocational instructors and, again, they now also
have none.
MR. LEEGARD stated that basically vocational education in
Southeast is in a descending spiral and has been for a
number of years; funds have been cut; there is a lack of
administration. At the UAS, there has not been a full-time
vocational administrator for about nine years. There is a
new one who has just been hired and he will be starting on
November 15. With the lack of funds and administration, the
instructors and students get discouraged and classes are
canceled. This has been going on for a number of years.
Number 853
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked what the teacher/student ratio
is in the vocational classes.
Number 855
MR. LEEGARD responded that the classes basically run with
about twelve students, ten to twelve, with maximums of
sixteen. Theoretically the instructors teach four classes.
Without an administrator, the instructors have ended up
doing more administrative work and less teaching.
Number 863
MR. LEEGARD said, regarding hiring temporary visiting
instructors, that many do not seem to be converted over to
permanent positions, which again leads to disgruntled
employees. He felt that an inordinate amount of time has to
be spent on things other than teaching. Committee
assignments take a lot of time, but are felt by the
individuals to be necessary to protect their own positions.
Also, in order to get any pay raises, they have to go
through promotion and tenure sequences. Many hours are
required for the instructors to prepare their file for
evaluation (two of his three instructors have between 40 and
100 hours in preparation so far), and nobody cares whether
they have a rank of assistant, associate or professor, they
just want a pay raise.
MR. LEEGARD said they would all prefer to see a pay raise
after a certain amount of time. As it is now, there is only
a 30 percent potential earnings increase when a person is
hired. Each person who has been hired has been paid
progressively less than the one before them. When you can
only look forward to a 30 percent pay raise in your entire
teaching career, it does not look too promising.
Number 897
CHAIR BUNDE said he recalled many years ago when rank was
taken away from the community college teachers and they were
then going to be demoted and called instructor or teacher.
This did not seem like much of a demotion to him.
Number 906
CHAIR BUNDE called for a five minute break at 5:35 p.m.
The meeting reconvened at 5:40 p.m.
Number 911
MS. RACHAEL BERMUDEZ, the representative from Prince William
Sound Community College, testified she moved to Alaska last
December. She was not involved in student government until
she started listening to people complain about student loans
not being on time and voicing their concerns about the
interest rate. The students were looking for alternative
methods for financing their education and seemed to feel if
these alternative methods could not be found they would be
unable to go to school. She got involved in student
government. Their student government joined the thirteen-
campus coalition of student governments. The subject of
student loans came up in the networking of this coalition.
The same problems seemed to universally surface -- interest
rates, timeliness, maximum loan amounts, and forgiveness.
The students felt that perhaps they could obtain a loan with
a lower interest rate through a bank. She said she
personally just encountered a man who did not get his
student loan check on time and got kicked out of his dorm
room, has no place to go, and has dropped out of school.
She wondered, if tuition were to be raised, what would
students do who were already locked into maximum loan
amounts based upon a lower tuition rate being in effect when
their loan was approved. She said she is not knowledgeable
about the ramifications of forgiveness of loans. Overall,
she was aware of these concerns and would prefer to see some
resolution, short of a student rebellion.
Number 971
CHAIR BUNDE commented that he would not want to see the
students rebel either; however, he felt the students of
today are extremely busy trying to work, raise families and
go to school, with enough priorities to keep them from
thinking about rebellion. He told Ms. Bermudez that the
issues she addressed are concerns of the legislature;
further, he has been assured by the staff of the
Post-Secondary Education Commission (of which he is a
member) they are now able to turn loans around in a more
timely fashion. As a blanket statement to all students, he
said that if calls are not answered in a timely manner by
this commission, he would like the students to call him.
MS. BERMUDEZ said she has encountered students this year who
have been having problems with not getting their checks on
time.
CHAIR BUNDE stressed there is a student responsibility to
apply for loans in a timely manner. He recalled that he
taught here in 1969, and without a student loan program,
there were students lined up trying to get in the door. He
said a loan program is not necessary for students to go to
school. It is nice, and it is great if it can be done, and
he wants to continue the program as long as possible, but he
felt the program must be self- sustaining. The state, right
now he felt, cannot put general funds money into that
student loan program. He also strongly encouraged students
to go where they can get lower interest money. There are
federal loans that are at a lower interest and students
ought to take advantage of those loans first and then the
state loans as a last resort. He reiterated that if the
loan interest rate actually reflected the cost to the state,
the students would have to paying about twelve percent. In
addition, there is a terrible default rate, resulting in the
recent hiring of another "skip tracer" to track people
nationwide who are not paying back their student loans.
Chair Bunde encouraged students not to take out loans,
making the observation that it would be wonderful if they
could graduate and not be in debt. Perhaps students will
have to do it the old fashioned way, "work a year and then
go to school for a year." Many people have done that, he
said.
CHAIR BUNDE commented there is no question that the state is
facing decreased revenues. He said that as much as his
heart wants to support education, and while subscribing to
the notion that if education is expensive, ignorance is far
more expensive, he recognized there are many people out
there whose needs are not being met as well and to them the
university is just another small special interest group.
Number 036
MS. BERMUDEZ asked how much money is given annually for
student loans.
CHAIR BUNDE responded there was just a bond sale for this
year in the amount, he thought, of approximately $60
million; he was not sure of the amount.
Number 040
MS. BERMUDEZ asked how many student loan applications come
in and how many are denied.
Number 041
CHAIR BUNDE answered that, as far as he knows, virtually
none are denied as long as they meet the requirements that
they are a state resident. He also observed that one of the
reasons the loan costs so much is that there is no credit
check.
Number 075
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE stated that another practical reason
why there is probably not that much dedication to credit
checking is due to the fact that, although the average of
many students is generally high, there is a very substantial
population of students who are entering out of high school
(18, 20, 22 years old) who have very little to no credit
established. Regarding the bonding, he stated this was a
decision made by the legislature a couple of years ago, to
drop the forgiveness and establish the revenue bond
situation whereby the legislature would sell bonds at five
to six percent to pay for the student loan program. Over
the next ten years the state will require a certain level of
capitalization of that program, but the responsibility of
the state would continue to gradually decrease, until
finally it is a self-sustaining program, fully paid for
through bonding, with a certain level of revenue coming in
above and beyond what was going to the retirement of the
bonds issued. The discussion at that point in time was that
revenue might be used for scholarships, expanding the
program, a partial forgiveness, or whatever -- but that was
going to be a little bit down the road. He said the last he
heard, they were not refusing to sell these bonds, so the
state's obligation to that has been dropping.
Number 118
CHAIR BUNDE acknowledged there is little or no general fund
money put into the student loan program, the idea being that
it would become revolving "you pay your loan and the next
person gets their loan." But at this point, he said, it
isn't there yet. We are borrowing money and paying six
percent and we are getting back from the students really
about five percent. There was the mention by Chair Bunde of
a possible lawsuit coming up that could cost the student
loan program $8 million.
CHAIR BUNDE told Rachael Bermudez that he understands the
student problems, that she has stated them well, and asked
that when she goes back to Valdez she tell them it is not
that the legislature is ignoring the students, but that
there are financial realities. Students are doing the right
thing to get the scholarships, the federal loans, the bank
loans at a lower interest rate, whatever they can get, and
take the state student loan as a last resort. Then, once a
state loan is taken, pay it back, or you contribute to its
demise.
Number 147
MR. DELBERT COLLETT, president of the Prince William Sound
Student Community Association, said he'd like to talk about
distance education. The state of Alaska, through its
constitution, provided for the University of Alaska system.
He said that somewhere along the line the focus of this
system has been lost. At the time of statehood, the federal
government instructed the state to form a state educational
system. At this time, however, unless a person lived in a
metropolitan area, they are denied an education. He said
rural people do not have a wide variety of resources and
some of these people live entirely by subsistence. Their
lifestyle should not preclude their education. Mr. Collett
said the state has a responsibility to educate all people in
the state, not just the ones who have the resources to seek
out education.
MR. COLLETT felt that right now the university government
was in a state of transition. The Board of Regents has
called for a system of government to be formed that would
combine the resources of faculty, students and staff into a
single government system whereby recommendations can be made
to the Board of Regents, the president, and the legislature
as to the function of the university as a whole. The rural
students have special needs that are in contradiction of the
metropolitan students. He said they have problems in
science, location, structure, and student lifestyle. In
outlying areas, there are mostly part-time students;
students who take as little as one credit to better their
jobs or their lives. They take what they can, when they
can, and that puts a burden on these people, he said.
MR. COLLETT said he felt there are problems with the student
loans right now. In his personal experience, he applied for
a student loan in March. He had a disbursement date of
September 30, 1993, but didn't get the check until October
20. The check was dated August 28 and held in Anchorage.
He pointed out that this shows there is a problem somewhere.
Many people struggle to go to school and without that check
the struggle is worse. Mr. Collett knew of cases where
people had no money to feed their children when the check
was late. He felt there has to be a better system of
distribution.
MR. COLLETT pointed out that the RATE (Rural Alaska
Teacher's Education) program was created by the legislature
specifically for the Prince William Sound Area, but it is
run through the university system. Mr. Collett said the
state can teach rural teachers to be rural teachers so that
they can go out and guide their own curriculum in their own
Alaska. He said there were 39 people that had to be dropped
from this system in Valdez -- 39 people who wanted to be
teachers in Alaska that had to be dropped from the program
because all of a sudden the courses were unavailable. Mr.
Collett said they were the only community college in the
state. They receive other funding other than the state, but
keep running into brick walls.
MR. COLLETT said they have a broadcast communications school
in Valdez that is capable and willing to set up a distance
education program. He pointed out that there are many forms
this could take: telecourses, correspondence courses,
interactive services. Mr. Collett explained that a student
can be 400 miles away and still have direct access to a
teacher through their computer. He said the possibilities
for this type of distance education are endless. He noted
he has a copy of a presidential task force report made in
Juneau in June 1993 that has relevant facts in it that need
to be pursued. Mr. Collett said there are people out there
that want an education but can't get it and there is
obviously no way they can. He said the state must be able
to provide that opportunity in a timely and cost effective
manner.
MR. COLLETT said he sees a need to have an official
organization to set goals and planning. He said they have a
system of student government called the United Association
of Rural Alaskan Students. This breaks the rural students
away from the associations in Anchorage and Juneau. The
rural students need a voice, he said, because they have
special problems and need representation. Mr. Collett is
from Los Angeles and came here eight years ago. He, at
first, thought Anchorage was a small town and, now that he
is in Valdez, he said he had a special understanding of the
type of access that should be in place and the special needs
of those in rural areas who don't have that access to higher
education. He said the legislature and university need to
focus on distance education and student needs.
TAPE 93-74, SIDE A
Number 000
MR. COLLETT concluded that Alaska does not have a system in
place to provide an education to rural students.
CHAIR BUNDE thanked Mr. Collett for coming all the way from
Valdez to testify and said he shared his frustration in
trying to make the legislature more accessible to students.
He said legislators frequently hear from administrators and
boards, but not from students.
Number 015
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked what the RATE program was and why
had 39 people been dropped.
CHAIR BUNDE said the courses were no longer available.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked if this was a statewide program.
CHAIR BUNDE responded that he wasn't sure, but he did know
that there was once a program in Northwest Alaska in which
$1 million was invested and not one student ever graduated
and became a teacher because there was no interest in the
program and no people with the right abilities.
Number 027
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked Mr. Collett if he was talking
about undergraduate students, not high school students.
MR. COLLETT replied yes.
CHAIR BUNDE said he understood there was a distance
education program for high school already in place.
Number 031
CHAIR BUNDE noted that Mr. Collett was from California and
that their liberal system of education went broke. He said
he hoped Mr. Collett was not suggesting Alaska imitate that
system. Students in Alaska have many different needs that
have to be balanced, he pointed out. A college student in
Chukchi costs the state $30,000 a year for them to go there.
Chair Bunde said he felt that wherever a person lives they
have choices to make. People who live in Anchorage get to
have K-Mart, but they also have to have K-Mart; they get to
have UAA, but they also have to have UAA. He said if
someone chooses to live in a village, the state can't afford
to provide them with a private education. Alaska has 21
public schools that have a student population of 12 or fewer
students, and it costs in excess of $100,000 per school and
the state cannot afford it. The legislature's job is to put
the money where it will serve the greatest need. People in
rural areas can make the choice to go to where a higher
education is offered.
MR. COLLETT said there are three national organizations that
provide funding to states that provide distance education.
He felt that one location that provides long distance
education through modern technology will cost considerably
less than many campuses with as few as 12 students each.
CHAIR BUNDE agreed, but said it was even less if you only
have one campus. He said Alaska needs $20 per barrel of oil
to balance the budget now, and it barely has $16. The money
is not there.
Number 067
MR. BRIAN BRUBAKER from the Association of Students at the
University of Alaska, Fairbanks (UAF) said he was there to
talk about student loans. He said he represented a new
group that has been formed and they were trying to solve
some of the problems with the loan and hoped to build a
stronger loan program. He wanted the students,
administration, and legislators to work together and each
unique viewpoint should be heard. His group believes there
are improvements that can be made in all stages of the
programs, including the timeliness of applying for a loan
and the need for loan information to be communicated to
students.
MR. BRUBAKER said there is a 30% rate of rejection for first
time loan applicants because information is not clear and
concise. He said students are often misled into believing
they have their loan because of unclear information in the
packet sent out by the commission. He felt there was a need
to make it easier for the institutions to administer loans,
to have a better system for determining eligibility, and a
better system for appeals. Mr. Brubaker suggested
institutions could make eligibility and appeals decisions
themselves.
Number 113
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked if this new group would be able
to go to the problem areas and help work through the
problems.
MR. BRUBAKER responded that his group thought they could
work in cooperation with the student leaders, the
institution officials, and the commission.
Number 117
CHAIR BUNDE said a new executive director had just been
hired and he agreed that the paper chase can be reduced
through electronics, Visa cards, and other means. He said
he would like to see no more paper searches. He said the
legislature is trying to get the commission to work harder
and smarter. The commission has a bad public relations
problem. Chair Bunde asked Mr. Brubaker and other students
to give DHSS and the commission time. He said they are
improving the application process and the way information is
communicated with the students. The commission just
completed an MTV video that explains the process through a
rap song that speaks the student's language.
Number 136
MR. BRUBAKER said there is a lot of information that the
group, as students, does not have and it is their fault for
not researching further. He felt the bad reputation of the
commission is a small problem, but small problems build up
and cause the breakdown of the system.
Number 156
CHAIR BUNDE replied that in talking with constituents, many
felt that the commission and DHSS were not addressing
problems with student loans and he felt this was not true.
A large part of the work done by DHSS concerns student
loans. For example, Chair Bunde said he does not feel there
should be a separate set of paperwork for loans. If a
student qualifies for resident tuition, they should
automatically qualify for a loan -- that would be more
efficient. He said the commission was moving forward and
the loan program was under a lot a pressure to remain
viable.
Number 163
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY suggested the group get some publicity
to the students explaining why it is so important to repay
their loans -- if they do not, there will be no money for
the students that follow.
Number 165
MR. BRUBAKER said the interest rate and the maximum loan
amount were two other areas of concern to his group. He
said they also felt the students should have gotten together
and addressed the problems with loans before things got so
out of hand.
Number 178
CHAIR BUNDE instructed Mr. Brubaker to please ask the
students to look carefully at the interest rate, which is
actually only 5%. A floating rate could go to 20% in a
year. He thanked Mr. Brubaker for his testimony and
recognized TERYL ELAM as the next speaker.
Number 188
MS. TERYL ELAM, a first-year student in the UAA WAMI
program, came to talk about that program. There are ten
students each year who do their first year there and then go
the University of Washington to finish. She said the
program has two purposes: (1) to provide doctors for Alaska
to service the population and (2) to provide Alaskans with
an education. Ms. Elam pointed out that there are very few
states that do not have a medical school and Alaska is one
of those. Because of that, she said, it is hard for
Alaskans to get into a medical school. She explained that
each state has its own system that gives preference to
students likely to remain in that state. The only option
for Alaskans, Ms. Elam said, is to apply to private schools,
which are extremely expensive. She felt this was a barrier
to those who would like to go into general practice and work
in an underserved area because they would have to pay back
the $130,000 cost of going to a private school. Ms. Elam
said that most of the students who go into the program here
want to come back to Alaska and serve their community. If
there isn't a WAMI program, they can't afford to do that.
Number 225
MS. ELAM said she had the choice of going to several private
schools and a couple of state schools, but she was told by
several of these schools that she could not be in the WICHE
program because they were no longer accepting Alaskans into
WICHE. She felt the public schools give lip service to
WICHE and rarely accept nonresidents. She said WAMI is well
respected, a premier research center, and it emphasizes
primary care. By being in Anchorage, Ms. Elam said,
students learn about the culture of Alaska and the health
care needs of Alaskans. She said students get to work with
local health care providers and that encourages them to want
to come back and practice. She explained that in a
student's third and fourth years they can rotate and come
back to Alaska and see how medicine is practiced in rural
Alaska. Ms. Elam concluded by saying she supported
continuation of funding for the program.
Number 271
CHAIR BUNDE asked if it is common for the first year of
medical school to be the most expensive. He said it costs
$70,000 a year for students to attend this program in
Anchorage, yet when they get to Washington the cost lowers
to about $30,000 a year.
Number 280
MS. ELAM responded that she wasn't aware of exact figures,
but she had heard it costs between $50,000 and $100,000 a
year to educate medical students because of all the special
facilities and research.
Number 290
CHAIR BUNDE said that still didn't explain why the first
year here was so expensive, and that with only a 50% return
of students to practice in Alaska, it was not a very good
state investment. He said he was surprised to hear we are
paying $75,000 a year to belong to WICHE and yet they are
not accepting our students.
MS. ELAM said this was because Alaskans have access to WAMI
-- another means of funding their education. She suggested
that Alaska choose one method of funding and to back that
strongly. She said medical students are not getting a free
ride. She has $40,000 in undergraduate loans and medical
school requires loans of $17,000 per year.
Number 331
CHAIR BUNDE said by the time Ms. Elam finishes medical
school, the state will have invested $160,000 in her
education. How much of that would she be willing to pay?
Number 338
MS. ELAM replied it is important to keep people concerned
about going into primary care. Her loans come from a
variety of sources with interest rates up to 12%, so her
actual repayment of loans will total about $140,000 instead
of $75,000.
Number 359
MS. KARIN PATTERSON, a student in Anchorage, said she also
wanted to talk about WAMI. She said she was born in Alaska
and has lived here all her life except for the five years
she spent at college in California, where she graduated with
honors. During her college years, Ms. Patterson said she
worked, got a scholarship and a grant and is still $29,000
in debt to the state of Alaska and pays $329 a month on her
student loan. She is currently taking science courses to
qualify to go to medical school and repayment of her current
loan at this time is very difficult.
MS. PATTERSON pointed out that interest accrues on loans
during the grace period while a student attends school and
when students graduate all their money goes toward interest.
She said WAMI would allow her to get a quality education and
return here to practice. As a student, Ms. Patterson is
concerned about support of WAMI, especially in a state where
students cannot get a medical education. She has been
advised that if she applied for a WICHE program, she would
not get accepted. State schools give preference to their
residents.
MS. PATTERSON stated that the only options open to her are
WAMI, the military, or even larger debts. Without WAMI, she
said she could borrow and incur large debts. She felt that
students in this position might as well go to John Hopkins
and have no incentive to return here. The purpose of the
program is to produce a highly qualified graduate and
attract that graduate to come back to the state. She
believes WAMI does that and she would support the
requirement of mandatory return to Alaska. The federal
government has a similar requirement of graduates working in
underserved areas.
Number 446
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said she had information on other
programs if Ms. Patterson would like a copy.
MS. PATTERSON responded that she would.
Number 452
CHAIR BUNDE said there was a recent "60 Minutes" program
about people with six-digit salaries who renege on their
student loans.
MS. PATTERSON replied she shared his concern.
CHAIR BUNDE said he didn't think Alaska could afford to
incur this kind of debt and loss with so little return.
CHAIR BUNDE called for JACK DALTON and was told he had left.
He asked the bridge operator if there was anyone waiting to
testify and was told no; only Kodiak was listening to
testimony. He then called DAVE DAU.
Number 510
MR. DAVE DAU said he is a professor in the psychology
department at UAA and was there to talk about problems in
the university system. He said Alaska is one of only six
states that does not provide a medical education and it is
one of only two states that does not have a functioning
community college. One of the most common complaints he
hears from students is that they cannot get the courses they
want and cannot obtain a degree in four years. In response,
the university comes up with elaborate systems, such as the
priority registration system. This system effectively
allows people in degree programs to register before people
who are not. Mr. Dau said there is debate now within the
university to make that system even more restrictive by
allowing seniors to register before anyone else. Another
elaborate solution, he said, is increasing class sizes. In
his department, they offer Introduction to Psychology to a
class with 200 students.
MR. DAU said the university in Anchorage has an unacceptable
ratio of part-time to full-time faculty members. He added
that UAA has an unacceptable level of "visiting" faculty who
visit year after year. He explained that this means the
university does not have much obligation to these people and
they respond in kind. The solution, Mr. Dau stated, is to
put teachers in the classroom.
MR. DAU said teachers need to do less research and
administration so they can offer more courses to students.
He encouraged the legislature to scrutinize requests for
funds for more instructors. The university is currently
advertising for two additional positions for his department
and each of those positions are expected to spend 25% of
their time doing research. He thought that was
unacceptable.
Number 610
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said she would like to see some
cooperation with the Science and Technology Foundation,
where they grant the funds for research and all funds that
come through the legislature for the university are spent on
teaching. She said she was part of the community college in
Anchorage and was sorry to see its demise. She said Alaska
is not an academic state. Alaskans are not catching and
teaching the people of this state.
Number 637
CHAIR BUNDE said this issue has been discussed in the
legislature and if research is so important to the private
sector, they should pay for it.
TAPE 94-74, SIDE B
Number 637
CHAIR BUNDE said very little research is geographically
specific. The legislature can no longer give intent. The
legislators' hands are tied and they can only cut the
budget.
CHAIR BUNDE thanked the speaker and called for the next
testimony.
Number 671
MR. JOE CONNORS, a faculty member at UAA, said he wants to
use existing funds wisely. He said this is currently not
the case. Mr. Connors felt that existing faculty have major
disparities in their workloads. Some faculty teach 140
students per semester, others as few as 40. In addition to
the teaching disparity, Mr. Connors said there is the
problem of research. He said he felt the university has not
scrutinized the type of research going on. He asked, Who
benefits from a particular research project? Students,
state, UA? What is the value of the research? Does it have
state value? Does it have national value? Mr. Connors said
he thought that faculty was being taken out of teaching for
administration and special projects and not being replaced.
He commended the legislature for approving funding for 26
new commissions within the year. However, he said they are
being filled as research and specialty positions, even
though the student body says they need more lower division
teachers. This costs Alaska more because a doctorate degree
is not needed to teach basic classes.
Number 735
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked who was accountable for this.
MR. CONNORS replied that the president of the university was
responsible now, and really each of the universities should
be held accountable.
Number 748
CHAIR BUNDE said it was his understanding that
three-quarters of the new hires are bipartite or tripartite
and Mr. Dau might want to check his research on this.
MR. CONNORS responded that it was obvious that for every
four 3:1:1's hired, the university could hire another
teacher and serve another 1020 students per semester.
CHAIR BUNDE said he has taught six or seven classes per
semester and would not like to see that type of system made
mandatory by the legislature.
Number 761
MR. CONNORS agreed. However, too many people are no longer
doing their jobs, he said.
Number 765
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said if this is the case, it is not
the person's fault, it is the system's fault.
Number 768
MR. CONNORS said that insisting on bringing in doctorates to
teach basic classes was harmful. That person will soon want
to join his or her colleagues teaching higher classes and
doing research. In essence, he said, Alaskans pay more and
get less.
Number 776
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said he would like more information on
new hires and jobs open.
Number 793
MR. RALPH McGRATH, president of the Alaska Community College
Federation of Teachers (ACCFT), said they have the
bargaining status as the bartering agent for the full-time
cooperative of the 160 who teach vocational and
undergraduate 100 and 200 courses and they also represent
faculty that teach at the extension sites of all three
universities. Mr. McGrath said ACCFT has a broad
responsibility of representation, but the one thing that
holds this group together as a faculty is a priority on
teaching and a priority on community college.
MR. McGRATH felt that the university was at a defining point
in its history. Seven years ago the community college
merged with the university. Mr. McGrath felt that seven
years was long enough to test whether or not that merger has
worked. It was his assessment that it has not. He said the
legislature established the community college act and ACCFT
has turned to the legislature and DHSS for the past 25 years
for guidance, direction, and support. He said his group was
looking for support for community colleges and would be
seeking that support in the up-coming legislative session.
Mr. McGrath thought the university was currently out of
control. Departments are making decisions as to what is
important. Mr. McGrath asked, Where's the leadership?
He felt that leadership has abandoned collegial
administration and there is a question as to why teachers
are here. As a teacher, Mr. McGrath asks himself, Am I a
university professor or a community college instructor? The
two, in his opinion, do not mix. Mr. McGrath said this
leaves teachers in the position of spending a hundred hours
applying for promotion. That time replaces the time they
used to spend doing something for the community. He said
the current system has become the equivalent of the movie
"The Paper Chase." Mr. McGrath stated that the result is an
internalized shifting of what the community college is all
about.
Number 844
CHAIR BUNDE thanked Mr. McGrath for his testimony. He said,
as representatives of the people of Alaska, we cannot make
decisions in a vacuum. He asked that any written testimony
be left with the secretary. He said legislators will be
back in November looking at the university and hearing
testimony.
Seeing no further business before the committee, CHAIR BUNDE
adjourned the meeting at 7:10 p.m.
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