Legislature(1993 - 1994)

04/02/1993 03:00 PM House HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
           HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES                         
                       STANDING COMMITTEE                                      
                          April 2, 1993                                        
                            3:00 p.m.                                          
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
  Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair                                                
  Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair                                                     
  Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair                                                  
  Rep. Al Vezey                                                                
  Rep. Pete Kott                                                               
  Rep. Harley Olberg                                                           
  Rep. Bettye Davis                                                            
  Rep. Irene Nicholia                                                          
  Rep. Tom Brice                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
  SB 53:    "An Act relating to payment for abortions under                    
            Medicaid and general relief medical assistance;                    
            annulling changes made by certain regulations                      
            adopted by the Department of Health and Social                     
            Services relating to funding of abortion services                  
            under the general relief medical program."                         
            PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS ON                          
  HB 148:   "An Act exempting the University of Alaska from                    
            the administrative adjudication provisions of the                  
            Administrative Procedures Act; and providing for                   
            an effective date."                                                
            PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS                             
  HB 210:   "An Act relating to employment of chief school                     
            HEARD - NO ACTION                                                  
  HB 195:   "An Act authorizing youth courts by which to                       
            provide for peer adjudication of minors who have                   
            allegedly committed violations of state or                         
            municipal laws, renaming the community legal                       
            assistance grant fund and amending the purposes                    
            for which grants may be made from that fund in                     
            order to provide financial assistance for                          
            organizations and initial operation of youth                       
            courts, and relating to young adult advisory                       
            panels in the superior court."                                     
            PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS                             
  (* First public hearing.)                                                    
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
  REP. GENE THERRIAULT                                                         
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  State Capitol, Room 421                                                      
  Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182                                                    
  Phone:  (907) 465-4794                                                       
  Position statement:  Prime sponsor of HB 148                                 
  MIKE KELLY, Member                                                           
  Board of Regents                                                             
  University of Alaska                                                         
  P.O. Box 71249                                                               
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99707-1249                                                 
  Position statement:  Testified in support of HB 148                          
  CAROLYNE WALLACE, Administrative Assistant                                   
  University of Alaska, Fairbanks                                              
  4057 Mallard Way                                                             
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99709                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 479-4081                                                       
  Position statement:  Testified in support of HB 148                          
  BONNIE WILLIAMS, President                                                   
  Statewide Administration Assembly;                                           
  Director of Advanced College Tuition                                         
  University of Alaska, Fairbanks                                              
  1335 Sunny Slope Rd.                                                         
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99709                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 455-6652                                                       
  Position statement:  Testified in support of HB 148                          
  WENDY REDMAN                                                                 
  Vice President for University Relations                                      
  University of Alaska                                                         
  910 Yukon Drive                                                              
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-2388                                                 
  Phone:  (907) 474-6302                                                       
  Position statement:  Answered questions on HB 148                            
  TOM ANDERSON, Legislative Aide                                               
  Rep. Terry Martin                                                            
  State Capitol, Room 411                                                      
  Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182                                                    
  Phone:  (907) 465-3783                                                       
  Position statement:  Represented prime sponsor of HB 210                     
  CARL ROSE, Executive Director                                                
  Association of Alaska School Boards                                          
  316 W. 11th St.                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 586-1083                                                       
  Position statement:  Testified in opposition to HB 210                       
  LEO MORGAN, President                                                        
  Kuspuk School District                                                       
  Aniak, Alaska 99557                                                          
  Position statement:  Testified in opposition to HB 210                       
  PAULA TERREL, Legislative Aide                                               
  Rep. Joe Sitton                                                              
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  Courthouse, Room 609                                                         
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 465-2327                                                       
  Position statement:  Testified in support of HB 195                          
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
  BILL:  SB  53                                                                
  BILL VERSION: CSSB 53(FIN) AM(EFD FLD)                                       
  SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES                              
  TITLE: "An Act relating to payment for abortions under                       
  Medicaid and general relief medical assistance; annulling                    
  changes made by certain regulations adopted by the                           
  Department of Health and Social Services relating to funding                 
  of abortion services under the general relief medical                        
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/22/93       122    (S)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/22/93       122    (S)   HES, JUD, FINANCE                                
  01/27/93              (S)   HES AT 01:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                    
  01/27/93              (S)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  01/29/93       187    (S)   HES RPT  4DP 1NR 1DNP                            
  01/29/93       187    (S)   FISCAL NOTES PUBLISHED (DHSS-5)                  
  02/10/93              (S)   JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                   
  02/10/93              (S)   MINUTE(JUD)                                      
  02/24/93              (S)   JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                   
  02/24/93              (S)   MINUTE(JUD)                                      
  02/25/93       481    (S)   JUD RPT  1DP  2DP W/AM  2DNP                     
  02/25/93       481    (S)   PREVIOUS FNS (DHSS-5)                            
  02/25/93       487    (S)   FIN WAIVED PUBLIC HEARING                        
                              NOTICE,RULE 23                                   
  02/26/93       499    (S)   FIN RPT  CS  4DP 2DNP                            
                              NEW TITLE                                        
  02/26/93       499    (S)   PREVIOUS FNS APPLY TO CS                         
  02/26/93              (S)   FIN AT 09:00 AM SENATE FINANCE                   
  02/26/93              (S)   MINUTE(FIN)                                      
  02/26/93              (S)   RLS AT 01:15 PM FAHRENKAMP 203                   
  02/26/93              (S)   MINUTE(RLS)                                      
  03/02/93       575    (S)   MOTION TO CALENDAR 3/3/93 FLD                    
                              Y8 N11 E1                                        
  03/03/93       589    (S)   RULES RPT 2/CALENDAR 1/OTHER                     
                              REC 3/3/93                                       
  03/03/93       590    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                             
  03/03/93       591    (S)   FIN  CS ADOPTED Y13 N5 E1 A1                     
  03/03/93       592    (S)   AM NO  1     ADOPTED Y11 N8 E1                   
  03/03/93       592    (S)   ADVANCE TO 3RD RDG FAILED Y13                    
                              N6 E1                                            
  03/03/93       592    (S)   THIRD READING 3/5 CALENDAR                       
  03/05/93       634    (S)   READ THE THIRD TIME  CSSB
                              53(FIN) AM                                       
  03/05/93       635    (S)   PASSED Y12 N6 E2                                 
  03/05/93       635    (S)   EFFECTIVE DATE FAILED Y12                        
                              N6 E2                                            
  03/05/93       635    (S)   Duncan  NOTICE OF                                
  03/08/93       658    (S)   RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD                        
  03/08/93       659    (S)   PLACED AT BOTTOM OF CALENDAR                     
                              UNAN CONS                                        
  03/08/93       672    (S)   PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y13                    
                              N6 E1                                            
  03/08/93       672    (S)   EFFECTIVE DATE FAILED Y13 N6 E1                  
  03/08/93       677    (S)   TRANSMITTED TO (H)                               
  03/10/93       582    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  03/10/93       582    (H)   L&C, HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE                     
  03/23/93              (H)   L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 124                      
  03/25/93              (H)   L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 124                      
  03/25/93              (H)   MINUTE(L&C)                                      
  03/26/93       791    (H)   L&C RPT  3DP  2DNP  2NR                          
  03/26/93       791    (H)   DP: WILLIAMS, PORTER, SITTON                     
  03/26/93       791    (H)   DNP: GREEN, MULDER                               
  03/26/93       791    (H)   NR: HUDSON, MACKIE                               
  03/26/93       791    (H)   -5 PREVIOUS SENATE FNS(DHS)                      
  03/26/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  03/26/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  04/01/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  04/01/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  BILL:  HB 148                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: EXEMPT U OF AK FROM APA PROCEDURES                              
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) THERRIAULT,Davies                              
  TITLE: "An Act exempting the University of Alaska from the                   
  administrative adjudication provisions of the Administrative                 
  Procedure Act; and providing for an effective date."                         
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  02/11/93       322    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  02/11/93       322    (H)   STATE AFFAIRS, HES, JUDICIARY                    
  03/20/93              (H)   STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102                      
  03/20/93              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  03/27/93              (H)   STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102                      
  03/27/93              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  03/29/93       821    (H)   STA RPT  5DP 1DNP 1AM                            
  03/29/93       822    (H)   -ZERO FISCAL NOTE  (UA) 3/29/93                  
  04/02/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  BILL:  HB 210                                                                
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MARTIN,Kott                                    
  TITLE: "An Act relating to employment of chief school                        
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  03/10/93       590    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  03/10/93       590    (H)   HES, FINANCE                                     
  03/12/93       629    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): KOTT                               
  03/22/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  03/22/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  03/22/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  04/01/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  04/01/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  04/02/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  BILL:  HB 195                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: AUTHORIZING YOUTH COURTS                                        
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) SITTON,Ulmer,Willis,Foster,                    
  TITLE: "An Act authorizing youth courts by which to provide                  
  for peer adjudication of minors who have allegedly committed                 
  violations of state or municipal laws, renaming the                          
  community legal assistance grant fund and amending                           
  the purposes for which grants may be made from that fund in                  
  order to provide financial assistance for organization and                   
  initial operation of youth courts, and relating to young                     
  adult advisory panels in the superior court."                                
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  03/03/93       519    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  03/03/93       519    (H)   HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE                          
  03/12/93       628    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): WILLIS, FOSTER,                    
  03/12/93       628    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): B.DAVIS, OLBERG                    
  03/19/93       716    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): PORTER                             
  03/24/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  03/31/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  04/01/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  04/01/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  04/02/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
  TAPE 93-57, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE called the meeting to order at 3:10 p.m., noted                  
  members present and announced the calendar.  He brought                      
  SB 53 to the table.                                                          
  SB 53:  ANNULLING ABORTION FUNDING REGULATIONS                               
  Number 018                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE noted that a notice of reconsideration had been                  
  given on the bill on the previous day, April 1, 1993, and                    
  invited any further discussion on the bill.  Hearing none,                   
  he declared that SB 53 had PASSED FROM THE COMMITTEE WITH                    
  INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS.                                                  
  CHAIR BUNDE brought HB 148 to the table and invited the                      
  sponsor to speak to the bill.                                                
  Number 028                                                                   
  REP. GENE THERRIAULT testified as PRIME SPONSOR of HB 148.                   
  He said the need for the bill had arisen from court cases.                   
  He said the adjudication procedures were not designed for                    
  student or employee grievances, but for grievances against                   
  state boards and commissions.  Student and employee                          
  grievance procedures traditionally involve several levels of                 
  peer review, with several appeal options, he said.  He read                  
  his sponsor statement, which is on file, which said that                     
  requiring APA (Administrative Procedure Act) procedures for                  
  university grievances would be very costly.                                  
  (Rep. Olberg arrived at 3:14 p.m.)                                           
  Number 082                                                                   
  UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA, testified in Juneau in support of                      
  HB 148.  He cited the cost of formal outside hearings on                     
  everything from parking citation appeals to student                          
  discipline to faculty or employee grievances.  He said                       
  legislation passed in 1977 was never intended to cover those                 
  kinds of issues, and contained intent language leaving to                    
  the university the management of the university.  He said                    
  the APA process can take months.  He said adding the extra                   
  layer of due process would cost the state $250,000 per year.                 
  He said due process was already available for such                           
  Number 119                                                                   
  via teleconference from Fairbanks in support of HB 148.  She                 
  said she had been on the university grievance committee for                  
  eight years.  She agreed with the previous two testifiers,                   
  saying the APA was not intended to apply to UAF and that the                 
  university already had an adequate grievance process.  She                   
  said the university did not need an expensive, time-                         
  consuming grievance procedure.                                               
  Number 138                                                                   
  ADVANCED COLLEGE TUITION, testified via teleconference in                    
  support of HB 148.  She said that since the lawsuit that put                 
  the university into its current situation, the university                    
  had been deprived of a reasonable and speedy grievance                       
  procedure.  In times of tight budgets, she said, use of the                  
  APA grievance procedure would mean cutting employee                          
  positions and reducing programs.                                             
  Number 172                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no further testimony, closed public                     
  testimony on HB 148 and invited discussion by the committee.                 
  REP. B. DAVIS distributed copies of an amendment to HB 148                   
  and moved the amendment, which she said would delay the                      
  effective date of the bill until such time as both the                       
  regents adopted a formal grievance procedure for employees                   
  to which the university employees' general assembly had                      
  REP. VEZEY asked whether the motion had been made.                           
  Number 206                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS said that she had.                                             
  REP. VEZEY objected to the motion, saying that when the same                 
  amendment had been considered in the House State Affairs                     
  Committee, it became clear that the amendment gave two                       
  separate groups the right effectively to veto the                            
  legislation.  He recommended voting against the amendment.                   
  CHAIR BUNDE invited Rep. B. Davis to speak to her amendment.                 
  Number 220                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS denied that the amendment would allow two                      
  sides an effective veto.  She noted that the regents wanted                  
  a speedy resolution of grievances.  She said that the                        
  amendment would ensure that the needs of all people involved                 
  would be met.  She said that some people felt they would                     
  have no recourse for their grievances absent the procedures                  
  established in the APA.                                                      
  REP. THERRIAULT said the amendment was unnecessary as UAF                    
  had a functional grievance procedure in place before the                     
  court instructed it to use the APA procedures, and the                       
  university would resume its normal grievance procedures with                 
  passage of HB 148.                                                           
  Number 259                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if there was a general grievance procedure                 
  for UAF, and was answered that there was.                                    
  REP. OLBERG restated Rep. Vezey's concern about granting                     
  outside organizations the power effectively to veto                          
  legislation by not agreeing to a grievance procedure.                        
  Number 270                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE expressed concern that the university general                    
  assembly could use its approval of a grievance procedure,                    
  which would save the university $250,000, to hold the                        
  university captive.                                                          
  REP. B. DAVIS said she understood that there were people who                 
  were unhappy with the current grievance procedure.  She                      
  asked if the federation of teachers had reached a                            
  satisfactory agreement with the university.  She said she                    
  would withdraw her amendment if she could be sure all of the                 
  university's bargaining units would support HB 148.                          
  Number 300                                                                   
  THE UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA, testified in Juneau on HB 210.                     
  She said she could give Rep. B. Davis that assurance.  She                   
  said all university employees in collective bargaining units                 
  were covered by the state PARA ?? Act, which defines                         
  grievance procedures in collective bargaining agreements.                    
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if anyone would be left out of that act.                 
  MS. REDMAN answered that most university employees were not                  
  covered by collective bargaining, by their own choice, but                   
  were covered by an internal grievance procedure in operation                 
  at the university for 75 years.                                              
  Number 313                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS asked the pitfalls of her amendment.                           
  MS. REDMAN said that the pitfalls had already been stated by                 
  others at the meeting.  She said that while she and the                      
  university employees appreciated the intent of the                           
  amendment, it was unnecessary.  She said that most employees                 
  were eager to return to a university grievance policy which                  
  had received a year's work by the grievance council, and                     
  which was about to be implemented when the court decision                    
  concerning the APA was delivered.  She said the policy had                   
  recently been distributed in anticipation of the passage of                  
  HB 148, in hopes it could be placed into effect at the June                  
  board meeting.                                                               
  Number 332                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS asked why, if what Ms. Redman said was true,                   
  would anyone think that the university board or general                      
  assembly would try to block the bill.                                        
  MS. REDMAN said that the objections to the amendment were                    
  not with its intent, but with the technical problems dealing                 
  with whether the legislature could grant other organizations                 
  power over the effective date of the bill.                                   
  REP. G. DAVIS said he had initially supported the amendment,                 
  but opposed it after additional research and discussion with                 
  Ms. Redman.  He said it leaves it up to one or two people to                 
  delay the bill's effective date, for legitimate or                           
  illegitimate reasons.                                                        
  Number 350                                                                   
  REP. VEZEY said personnel grievances were only a small part                  
  of the scope of the APA.  He thought the APA addressed                       
  boards and commissions and quasi-judicial responsibilities,                  
  but, according to a court decision, the APA procedures                       
  applied to university procedures great and small.  He said                   
  one person had successfully avoided paying a parking ticket                  
  by asking for an APA hearing.                                                
  REP. B. DAVIS said Rep. Vezey's point was well-taken and she                 
  believed it was true that not all employee grievances were                   
  intended to be heard under APA procedures.  She said that                    
  those people who had expected their grievances to be heard                   
  under APA procedures would need extra time to find out how                   
  their grievances would be addressed in a different process.                  
  After noting that the university general assembly would meet                 
  in June 1993, and that HB 148 would take effect immediately,                 
  she withdrew her amendment and expressed her intention to                    
  introduce another amendment to change the effective date.                    
  Number 378                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE noted that the bill still had to be signed by                    
  the governor before taking effect.                                           
  REP. B. DAVIS observed that the bill could be passed by the                  
  legislature and be signed by the governor and take effect.                   
  CHAIR BUNDE noted that while that would not be typical, it                   
  would be possible.  He asked whether Rep. B. Davis had                       
  withdrawn her amendment.                                                     
  Number 384                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS indicated that she had.  She then moved an                     
  amendment changing the effective date of HB 148 to June 30,                  
  1993.  She noted that even without an effective date, the                    
  bill would take effect 90 days after it was signed by the                    
  REP. TOOHEY asked if a 90-day delay would be harmful.                        
  REP. THERRIAULT said he did not think there was a need for a                 
  delay.  He noted that the bill allowed any grievance process                 
  which had started under APA to be completed under APA, and a                 
  delay in the effective date would leave a large window of                    
  opportunity for many grievances to be started and completed                  
  under the costly APA process.                                                
  CHAIR BUNDE noted the motion and asked if there were any                     
  REP. VEZEY objected.                                                         
  CHAIR BUNDE called for a roll call vote.  He noted that Rep.                 
  Brice was on-line from Fairbanks.                                            
  REP. BRICE greeted the committee members and encouraged them                 
  to proceed.                                                                  
  CHAIR BUNDE repeated his call for a vote on the motion.                      
  Those voting yes were Reps. B. Davis and Nicholia.  Those                    
  voting no were Reps. G. Davis, Vezey, Kott, Olberg, Toohey                   
  and Bunde.  The motion failed 2-6.  Chair Bunde asked the                    
  will of the committee.                                                       
  REP. VEZEY moved passage of HB 148 with individual                           
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for objections and, hearing none, declared                 
  HB 148 passed with individual recommendations.                               
  CHAIR BUNDE then brought HB 210 to the table.                                
  HB 210:  HIRING OF CHIEF SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS                               
  Number 432                                                                   
  SPONSOR, presented and distributed to the committee an                       
  amendment to HB 210.                                                         
  REP. BRICE, speaking by teleconference, asked the chair to                   
  read the amendment or to have a copy of the amendment faxed                  
  to him.                                                                      
  CHAIR BUNDE said the amendment would amend page 1, line 9,                   
  of the bill to delete the numeral "500" and insert the                       
  numeral "1,000."                                                             
  REP. BRICE indicated that he was satisfied with that                         
  CHAIR BUNDE invited Mr. Anderson to speak to the amendment.                  
  MR. ANDERSON said that since he and Rep. Martin last                         
  presented HB 210, they had tried to find other ways to                       
  change the bill, and might not have changed it to the liking                 
  of all representatives.  He said that Rep. Martin felt there                 
  were problems with the way chief school administrators were                  
  paid and the way they dealt with their administrative                        
  payrolls and retirement benefits.  He said Rep. Martin felt                  
  it might be better to amend the bill to raise the number of                  
  students that would be the minimum needed to require a chief                 
  school administrator.  He said there were advantages to                      
  having smaller school districts share administrators.                        
  Number 284                                                                   
  REP. NICHOLIA voiced disagreement with Mr. Anderson's                        
  assertions, saying the bill would not save money.  She said                  
  that rural school districts had large expenses, including                    
  the costs for charter flights for administrators and board                   
  members.  She mentioned the benefits of having                               
  administrators on-site.                                                      
  REP. TOOHEY asked whether administrators could still travel                  
  among the different schools in a district under HB 210.                      
  MR. ANDERSON answered yes.  He also acknowledged that                        
  superintendents do travel around rural districts and would                   
  have to continue to do so under the bill.  He pointed out                    
  the close proximity of some school districts and said it                     
  would not hurt them to have a single superintendent.                         
  Number 512                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE noted that Rep. Brice had received an illegal                    
  (legal) opinion from the legislative Legal Services which                    
  indicated that committee members participating in a meeting                  
  by teleconference could vote on amendments but not on the                    
  final action on a bill.                                                      
  REP. OLBERG asked if an amendment had been moved and                         
  objected to.                                                                 
  CHAIR BUNDE answered no, the amendment had been offered.  He                 
  asked the pleasure of the committee.                                         
  REP. TOOHEY moved the amendment.                                             
  REP. OLBERG objected.                                                        
  CHAIR BUNDE noted the objection and called for a roll call                   
  vote.  Those voting yes were Reps. Kott, Toohey and Bunde.                   
  Those voting no were Reps. Vezey, Olberg, B. Davis, Nicholia                 
  and G. Davis.  The motion failed 3-5.                                        
  CHAIR BUNDE noted that the committee was then considering                    
  the bill without amendments.  He invited Carl Rose to                        
  testify and noted that there were people waiting to testify                  
  from Kuspuk, Anchorage and Petersburg.                                       
  Number 543                                                                   
  SCHOOL BOARDS, testified in Juneau in opposition to HB 210,                  
  saying that the association supported local control of                       
  school districts.  He said that school boards have legal                     
  responsibility for all of a district's activities and have                   
  large legal exposure.  He said school boards are elected to                  
  establish policy under the direction of their local                          
  communities, and school administrators are hired to                          
  administer the execution of such policies.  He said                          
  superintendents in smaller districts also serve as teachers                  
  or principals, as opposed to superintendents in larger                       
  school districts, where superintendents are more like chief                  
  executive officers.  He said that having one administrator                   
  could not carry out the spirit of the policies established                   
  by five different school boards.  He said school districts                   
  needed an administrator on-site to deal with negotiation,                    
  grievances, policies, budgeting and other issues.  He said                   
  first-class cities which tax for schools, or communities                     
  which qualified for PL-874 funds in lieu of taxes, therefore                 
  had a right to have their own school districts.  He offered                  
  to work with the sponsor or committee to address the issue                   
  of educational service delivery and administration, saying                   
  that all issues had not been addressed.  He said he was not                  
  sure of the bill's objective, and said that there would be                   
  other ways to save money.                                                    
  Number 593                                                                   
  REP. TOOHEY noted that there was a push on for the state to                  
  get its spending in line with its income.  She said that                     
  bills such as HB 210 were an effort to cut the budget.  She                  
  asked Mr. Rose to come back with other suggestions as to how                 
  to cut government expenses because the state was not going                   
  to find another Prudhoe Bay.                                                 
  TAPE 93-57, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
  MR. ROSE said he would be glad to do so, as he had many                      
  recommendations, though some people might not like them.                     
  REP. TOOHEY reminded him that the bottom line was that the                   
  state was running out of money.                                              
  Number 006                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE said he would support the bill if it saved                       
  money.  He said he was interested in getting more money in                   
  the classroom and allowing less money to leak into other                     
  costs along the way to the classroom.  He said there were 11                 
  schools which spent more than 10 percent of their budgets on                 
  administrative payroll, compared to 3 percent in the                         
  Anchorage School District.  He noted one school district                     
  which served fewer than 500 students but which had 27 people                 
  on an administrative payroll earning $1 million in a                         
  district with less than 500 students.  He said the committee                 
  did not hate small school districts, but noted that the                      
  state just did not have as much money available as it once                   
  did.  He apologized if he appeared adversarial, but said his                 
  intention was to ensure more money reached classrooms.  He                   
  said the state took many steps to cut costs, such as holding                 
  meetings by teleconference, and suggested remote school                      
  districts should try such methods.  He acknowledged that                     
  school boards needed to be accountable to local communities,                 
  but said superintendents are simply employees and could be                   
  shared by more than one district.                                            
  Number 068                                                                   
  MR. ROSE said he might have questions about the figures                      
  Chair Bunde had cited, and expressed a preference for using                  
  his own figures.  He said that some of the information he                    
  had provided in response to questions from Rep. Martin                       
  involved executive-level and director-level positions, not                   
  administrative positions.                                                    
  REP. G. DAVIS said he did not support the bill, but did                      
  support its aim of making the educational system aware of                    
  the need for changes.  He said that if schools could always                  
  get whatever money they wanted from the state, there would                   
  be no possibility of change.  He said if people knew the                     
  days of unlimited money were gone, they might be more likely                 
  to examine the operations of the educational system.  He                     
  said he doubted whether Alaska 2000 addressed that issue, as                 
  it was likely to result in more educational spending.  He                    
  said he still had faith in the system and the ability of the                 
  educational community to abide by the demands of the public.                 
  CHAIR BUNDE invited those at remote sites to testify by                      
  Number 125                                                                   
  testified via teleconference from Aniak in opposition to                     
  HB 210.  He doubted that a single superintendent could serve                 
  the districts of Iditarod or Kuspuk as they were too large                   
  and diverse.  He said individual school sites feel neglected                 
  within these large school districts.  He said linking more                   
  than one together would raise too many problems.  He said                    
  the districts would resist the bill, and predicted many                      
  lawsuits if HB 210 passed.                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE said he had been to Aniak, Bethel, Stony River,                  
  Sleetmute and Red Devil and he thought he had some feeling                   
  for conditions and diversity.  He said he felt that the                      
  difference between Aniak and Bethel was no greater than that                 
  between Eagle River and Girdwood, or between Spenard and                     
  Muldoon, which are all served by one school district and one                 
  superintendent.  He said he understood the diversity of                      
  different areas, but asked him to understand the need for                    
  REP. NICHOLIA noted that Girdwood and Eagle River were on                    
  the road system, while Bethel was not, and therefore had                     
  higher expenses.                                                             
  Number 167                                                                   
  REP. VEZEY pointed out that there were some school districts                 
  that covered hundreds of miles.                                              
  REP. NICHOLIA pointed out that the Yukon Flats and Yukon                     
  Koyukuk school districts were in regions.                                    
  CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no further requests to testify, closed                  
  public testimony on HB 210 and asked the will of the                         
  Number 186                                                                   
  REP. TOOHEY asked Mr. Rose to return in a week or two to                     
  discuss revisions to the bill with the sponsor and possibly                  
  with a subcommittee of the HESS Committee.                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Mr. Rose if he had time and interest in                    
  such a meeting.                                                              
  MR. ROSE replied,  "I would do so willingly."                                
  Number 200                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE appointed a subcommittee of the HESS Committee,                  
  consisting of Rep. Toohey as chair, with Rep. Nicholia and                   
  Rep. G. Davis as members.  He asked Rep. Toohey to convene a                 
  meeting at a suitable time such that it could report back to                 
  the HESS Committee within a week, and invited anyone else                    
  who wanted to attend to do so.  He also asked that Rep.                      
  Martin be notified of those plans.                                           
  REP. B. DAVIS said the state needed to have more efficient                   
  school operations, but said she did not think HB 210 would                   
  save money.  She suggested volunteer workers might help make                 
  changes.  She also said that one superintendent could not                    
  serve four or five school districts at a time, and that                      
  superintendents did not last more than three years even when                 
  they were responsible for one school district.                               
  CHAIR BUNDE brought HB 195 to the table and noted that the                   
  teleconferenced portion of the meeting was at an end.                        
  HB 195:  AUTHORIZING YOUTH COURTS                                            
  CHAIR BUNDE noted that it was decided at an earlier hearing                  
  on the bill that there was a need for some adjustment to the                 
  bill.  He opened public testimony on the bill and, noting no                 
  one wishing to testify, closed public testimony on the bill                  
  and opened committee discussion.                                             
  REP. VEZEY passed out a blank committee substitute (CS) of                   
  the bill, which he said included all amendments adopted at                   
  the previous meeting, including the creation of a new                        
  juvenile justice grant fund.  He said that, as the bill                      
  carried no fiscal note and contained no appropriation to the                 
  fund, the department would not be able to adopt regulations                  
  to carry out the purpose of the act.  He said Legal Services                 
  advised him that the bill had to contain such an explicit                    
  denial, but he questioned the need for inclusion of such a                   
  Number 285                                                                   
  REP. OLBERG recalled that there had been some disagreement                   
  on the bill at the earlier meeting.  He said he had had no                   
  problems with the original bill and asked if the committee                   
  had yet adopted the committee substitute.                                    
  CHAIR BUNDE answered no.                                                     
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if there was testimony on the CS.                        
  CHAIR BUNDE answered no.                                                     
  Number 298                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS moved adoption of the CS as a working draft of                 
  HB 195.                                                                      
  REP. OLBERG objected.                                                        
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for a roll call vote.                                      
  There followed a moment of confused discussion in which a                    
  point of order was called but not acknowledged.                              
  REP. B. DAVIS asked the sponsor of the bill or his                           
  representative to speak to the CS version.                                   
  Number 302                                                                   
  PAULA TERREL, AIDE TO REP. SITTON, testified on HB 95.  She                  
  said that Rep. Sitton did not object to the CS, though he                    
  felt that the substitution of the term "person" for                          
  "nonprofit" was slightly unwieldy.  She said he thought it                   
  was less likely that individual people would start youth                     
  courts than nonprofit corporations.  Ms. Terrel stated, "But                 
  that they are included, and the department still may adopt                   
  regulations for this, and in view of that, he doesn't have a                 
  problem with the separation of the funds.  He accepts it."                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if Rep. Sitton had reacted to the fact                     
  that the CS version did not include any money to implement                   
  the bill.                                                                    
  MS. TERREL said that Rep. Sitton would have liked to have                    
  the money, but if it was not there, it was not there.  She                   
  commented that if someone in the Finance Committee wanted to                 
  amend it ...                                                                 
  Number 322                                                                   
  REP. OLBERG said that he did not see the necessity of                        
  creating a new grant fund or eliminating the old grant fund.                 
  He said the original proposal would have converted the                       
  community legal assistance grant fund into the legal                         
  assistance and juvenile justice grant fund.  He said that                    
  the bill now created the juvenile justice grant fund, but                    
  gave it no money.  He questioned the necessity of that                       
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if it would be possible to include new                   
  language that would allow money to be transferred from one                   
  of the separated funds to another, now that the co-mingling                  
  of funds issue had been addressed.                                           
  MS. TERREL said she had checked with the Department of                       
  Community and Regional Affairs and had learned that there                    
  was no money available in the legal assistance fund.                         
  Number 338                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS asked Rep. Vezey to explain again why he                       
  preferred the use of the term "person" instead of                            
  REP. VEZEY repeated that the legal definition of "person"                    
  encompassed almost all of those organizations that could                     
  provide a youth courts, including nonprofit corporations,                    
  but not limiting it to nonprofit corporations.                               
  Number 356                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if it was possible to make a simple                      
  amendment instead.                                                           
  REP. VEZEY noted that an organization did not have to be                     
  nonprofit, or a corporation, to provide public service.  He                  
  said the legal protections formerly provided by the                          
  corporate structure had been weakened over the last 20                       
  years, and there were reasons not to use such a structure.                   
  Number 369                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE said using the word person provided the greatest                 
  possible flexibility in the establishment of a youth court.                  
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if the bill contained a definition of                    
  the term "person."                                                           
  CHAIR BUNDE said the definition was contained in statute.                    
  Number 375                                                                   
  REP. VEZEY said the term "person" was defined in AS 01.10.60                 
  paragraph 8.  He said virtually no person or group was                       
  excluded by that definition.                                                 
  CHAIR BUNDE said that the definition might include the                       
  Alaska Native Brotherhood.                                                   
  REP. VEZEY said that a political subdivision of the state                    
  was not a nonprofit corporation.                                             
  REP. TOOHEY asked Rep. Vezey if there were any other changes                 
  to the bill contained in the CS other than the two changes                   
  he mentioned, those being the creation of a new grant fund                   
  and the substitution of the term "person" for "nonprofit."                   
  REP. VEZEY said that to his knowledge those were the only                    
  REP. TOOHEY commented that there had been changes to Section                 
  4 to include municipalities instead of just cities.                          
  REP. VEZEY said that this change had been made by his                        
  REP. TOOHEY asked if another amendment had not deleted from                  
  the bill lines 4-7 on page 4.  She said that if he could                     
  show her that those were the only changes, and that the                      
  sponsor was happy with the changes, she would believe the                    
  bill was a good piece of legislation.                                        
  REP. VEZEY said that the deletion she mentioned had not been                 
  accepted by the committee, nor had it been included in the                   
  Number 409                                                                   
  REP. OLBERG withdrew his objection to adopting the CS                        
  version of HB 195.                                                           
  CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no objection, then declared that the                    
  committee had adopted the CS version of HB 195 as a working                  
  draft.  He noted that the next committee of referral was the                 
  House Finance Committee.                                                     
  Number 412                                                                   
  REP. TOOHEY moved passage of CSHB 195 with individual                        
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for objections and hearing none, declared                  
  that CSHB 195 had passed with individual recommendations.                    
  CHAIR BUNDE adjourned the meeting at 4:24 p.m.                               

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