Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/02/1993 03:00 PM House HES
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE April 2, 1993 3:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair Rep. Al Vezey Rep. Pete Kott Rep. Harley Olberg Rep. Bettye Davis Rep. Irene Nicholia Rep. Tom Brice MEMBERS ABSENT None COMMITTEE CALENDAR SB 53: "An Act relating to payment for abortions under Medicaid and general relief medical assistance; annulling changes made by certain regulations adopted by the Department of Health and Social Services relating to funding of abortion services under the general relief medical program." PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS ON RECONSIDERATION HB 148: "An Act exempting the University of Alaska from the administrative adjudication provisions of the Administrative Procedures Act; and providing for an effective date." PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS HB 210: "An Act relating to employment of chief school administrators." HEARD - NO ACTION HB 195: "An Act authorizing youth courts by which to provide for peer adjudication of minors who have allegedly committed violations of state or municipal laws, renaming the community legal assistance grant fund and amending the purposes for which grants may be made from that fund in order to provide financial assistance for organizations and initial operation of youth courts, and relating to young adult advisory panels in the superior court." PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS (* First public hearing.) WITNESS REGISTER REP. GENE THERRIAULT Alaska State Legislature State Capitol, Room 421 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Phone: (907) 465-4794 Position statement: Prime sponsor of HB 148 MIKE KELLY, Member Board of Regents University of Alaska P.O. Box 71249 Fairbanks, Alaska 99707-1249 Position statement: Testified in support of HB 148 CAROLYNE WALLACE, Administrative Assistant University of Alaska, Fairbanks 4057 Mallard Way Fairbanks, Alaska 99709 Phone: (907) 479-4081 Position statement: Testified in support of HB 148 BONNIE WILLIAMS, President Statewide Administration Assembly; Director of Advanced College Tuition University of Alaska, Fairbanks 1335 Sunny Slope Rd. Fairbanks, Alaska 99709 Phone: (907) 455-6652 Position statement: Testified in support of HB 148 WENDY REDMAN Vice President for University Relations University of Alaska 910 Yukon Drive Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-2388 Phone: (907) 474-6302 Position statement: Answered questions on HB 148 TOM ANDERSON, Legislative Aide Rep. Terry Martin State Capitol, Room 411 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Phone: (907) 465-3783 Position statement: Represented prime sponsor of HB 210 CARL ROSE, Executive Director Association of Alaska School Boards 316 W. 11th St. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 586-1083 Position statement: Testified in opposition to HB 210 LEO MORGAN, President Kuspuk School District Aniak, Alaska 99557 Position statement: Testified in opposition to HB 210 PAULA TERREL, Legislative Aide Rep. Joe Sitton Alaska State Legislature Courthouse, Room 609 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 465-2327 Position statement: Testified in support of HB 195 PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: SB 53 SHORT TITLE: ANNULLING ABORTION FUNDING REGULATIONS BILL VERSION: CSSB 53(FIN) AM(EFD FLD) SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES TITLE: "An Act relating to payment for abortions under Medicaid and general relief medical assistance; annulling changes made by certain regulations adopted by the Department of Health and Social Services relating to funding of abortion services under the general relief medical program." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/22/93 122 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/22/93 122 (S) HES, JUD, FINANCE 01/27/93 (S) HES AT 01:30 PM BUTROVICH 205 01/27/93 (S) MINUTE(HES) 01/29/93 187 (S) HES RPT 4DP 1NR 1DNP 01/29/93 187 (S) FISCAL NOTES PUBLISHED (DHSS-5) 02/10/93 (S) JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211 02/10/93 (S) MINUTE(JUD) 02/24/93 (S) JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211 02/24/93 (S) MINUTE(JUD) 02/25/93 481 (S) JUD RPT 1DP 2DP W/AM 2DNP 02/25/93 481 (S) PREVIOUS FNS (DHSS-5) 02/25/93 487 (S) FIN WAIVED PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE,RULE 23 02/26/93 499 (S) FIN RPT CS 4DP 2DNP NEW TITLE 02/26/93 499 (S) PREVIOUS FNS APPLY TO CS (DHSS-5) 02/26/93 (S) FIN AT 09:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 518 02/26/93 (S) MINUTE(FIN) 02/26/93 (S) RLS AT 01:15 PM FAHRENKAMP 203 02/26/93 (S) MINUTE(RLS) 03/02/93 575 (S) MOTION TO CALENDAR 3/3/93 FLD Y8 N11 E1 03/03/93 589 (S) RULES RPT 2/CALENDAR 1/OTHER REC 3/3/93 03/03/93 590 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME 03/03/93 591 (S) FIN CS ADOPTED Y13 N5 E1 A1 03/03/93 592 (S) AM NO 1 ADOPTED Y11 N8 E1 03/03/93 592 (S) ADVANCE TO 3RD RDG FAILED Y13 N6 E1 03/03/93 592 (S) THIRD READING 3/5 CALENDAR 03/05/93 634 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 53(FIN) AM 03/05/93 635 (S) PASSED Y12 N6 E2 03/05/93 635 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE FAILED Y12 N6 E2 03/05/93 635 (S) Duncan NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION 03/08/93 658 (S) RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD READING 03/08/93 659 (S) PLACED AT BOTTOM OF CALENDAR UNAN CONS 03/08/93 672 (S) PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y13 N6 E1 03/08/93 672 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE FAILED Y13 N6 E1 03/08/93 677 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H) 03/10/93 582 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 03/10/93 582 (H) L&C, HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 03/23/93 (H) L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 124 03/25/93 (H) L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 124 03/25/93 (H) MINUTE(L&C) 03/26/93 791 (H) L&C RPT 3DP 2DNP 2NR 03/26/93 791 (H) DP: WILLIAMS, PORTER, SITTON 03/26/93 791 (H) DNP: GREEN, MULDER 03/26/93 791 (H) NR: HUDSON, MACKIE 03/26/93 791 (H) -5 PREVIOUS SENATE FNS(DHS) 1/29/93 03/26/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 03/26/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 04/01/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 04/01/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) BILL: HB 148 SHORT TITLE: EXEMPT U OF AK FROM APA PROCEDURES BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) THERRIAULT,Davies TITLE: "An Act exempting the University of Alaska from the administrative adjudication provisions of the Administrative Procedure Act; and providing for an effective date." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 02/11/93 322 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 02/11/93 322 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, HES, JUDICIARY 03/20/93 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102 03/20/93 (H) MINUTE(STA) 03/27/93 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102 03/27/93 (H) MINUTE(STA) 03/29/93 821 (H) STA RPT 5DP 1DNP 1AM 03/29/93 822 (H) -ZERO FISCAL NOTE (UA) 3/29/93 04/02/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 210 SHORT TITLE: HIRING OF CHIEF SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MARTIN,Kott TITLE: "An Act relating to employment of chief school administrators." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 03/10/93 590 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 03/10/93 590 (H) HES, FINANCE 03/12/93 629 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KOTT 03/22/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 03/22/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 03/22/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 04/01/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 04/01/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 04/02/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 195 SHORT TITLE: AUTHORIZING YOUTH COURTS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) SITTON,Ulmer,Willis,Foster, Brown,B.Davis,Olberg,Porter TITLE: "An Act authorizing youth courts by which to provide for peer adjudication of minors who have allegedly committed violations of state or municipal laws, renaming the community legal assistance grant fund and amending the purposes for which grants may be made from that fund in order to provide financial assistance for organization and initial operation of youth courts, and relating to young adult advisory panels in the superior court." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 03/03/93 519 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 03/03/93 519 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 03/12/93 628 (H) COSPONSOR(S): WILLIS, FOSTER, BROWN 03/12/93 628 (H) COSPONSOR(S): B.DAVIS, OLBERG 03/19/93 716 (H) COSPONSOR(S): PORTER 03/24/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 03/31/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 04/01/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 04/01/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 04/02/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-57, SIDE A Number 000 CHAIR BUNDE called the meeting to order at 3:10 p.m., noted members present and announced the calendar. He brought SB 53 to the table. SB 53: ANNULLING ABORTION FUNDING REGULATIONS Number 018 CHAIR BUNDE noted that a notice of reconsideration had been given on the bill on the previous day, April 1, 1993, and invited any further discussion on the bill. Hearing none, he declared that SB 53 had PASSED FROM THE COMMITTEE WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. CHAIR BUNDE brought HB 148 to the table and invited the sponsor to speak to the bill. HB 148: EXEMPT UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA FROM APA PROCEDURES Number 028 REP. GENE THERRIAULT testified as PRIME SPONSOR of HB 148. He said the need for the bill had arisen from court cases. He said the adjudication procedures were not designed for student or employee grievances, but for grievances against state boards and commissions. Student and employee grievance procedures traditionally involve several levels of peer review, with several appeal options, he said. He read his sponsor statement, which is on file, which said that requiring APA (Administrative Procedure Act) procedures for university grievances would be very costly. (Rep. Olberg arrived at 3:14 p.m.) Number 082 MIKE KELLY, A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF REGENTS FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA, testified in Juneau in support of HB 148. He cited the cost of formal outside hearings on everything from parking citation appeals to student discipline to faculty or employee grievances. He said legislation passed in 1977 was never intended to cover those kinds of issues, and contained intent language leaving to the university the management of the university. He said the APA process can take months. He said adding the extra layer of due process would cost the state $250,000 per year. He said due process was already available for such grievances. Number 119 CAROLYNE WALLACE, AN ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT TO THE DEAN OF AGRICULTURE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA FAIRBANKS, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks in support of HB 148. She said she had been on the university grievance committee for eight years. She agreed with the previous two testifiers, saying the APA was not intended to apply to UAF and that the university already had an adequate grievance process. She said the university did not need an expensive, time- consuming grievance procedure. Number 138 BONNIE WILLIAMS, PRESIDENT OF THE STATEWIDE ADMINISTRATION ASSEMBLY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA, AND DIRECTOR OF ADVANCED COLLEGE TUITION, testified via teleconference in support of HB 148. She said that since the lawsuit that put the university into its current situation, the university had been deprived of a reasonable and speedy grievance procedure. In times of tight budgets, she said, use of the APA grievance procedure would mean cutting employee positions and reducing programs. Number 172 CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no further testimony, closed public testimony on HB 148 and invited discussion by the committee. REP. B. DAVIS distributed copies of an amendment to HB 148 and moved the amendment, which she said would delay the effective date of the bill until such time as both the regents adopted a formal grievance procedure for employees to which the university employees' general assembly had agreed. REP. VEZEY asked whether the motion had been made. Number 206 REP. B. DAVIS said that she had. REP. VEZEY objected to the motion, saying that when the same amendment had been considered in the House State Affairs Committee, it became clear that the amendment gave two separate groups the right effectively to veto the legislation. He recommended voting against the amendment. CHAIR BUNDE invited Rep. B. Davis to speak to her amendment. Number 220 REP. B. DAVIS denied that the amendment would allow two sides an effective veto. She noted that the regents wanted a speedy resolution of grievances. She said that the amendment would ensure that the needs of all people involved would be met. She said that some people felt they would have no recourse for their grievances absent the procedures established in the APA. REP. THERRIAULT said the amendment was unnecessary as UAF had a functional grievance procedure in place before the court instructed it to use the APA procedures, and the university would resume its normal grievance procedures with passage of HB 148. Number 259 CHAIR BUNDE asked if there was a general grievance procedure for UAF, and was answered that there was. REP. OLBERG restated Rep. Vezey's concern about granting outside organizations the power effectively to veto legislation by not agreeing to a grievance procedure. Number 270 CHAIR BUNDE expressed concern that the university general assembly could use its approval of a grievance procedure, which would save the university $250,000, to hold the university captive. REP. B. DAVIS said she understood that there were people who were unhappy with the current grievance procedure. She asked if the federation of teachers had reached a satisfactory agreement with the university. She said she would withdraw her amendment if she could be sure all of the university's bargaining units would support HB 148. Number 300 WENDY REDMAN, VICE PRESIDENT FOR UNIVERSITY RELATIONS FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA, testified in Juneau on HB 210. She said she could give Rep. B. Davis that assurance. She said all university employees in collective bargaining units were covered by the state PARA ?? Act, which defines grievance procedures in collective bargaining agreements. REP. B. DAVIS asked if anyone would be left out of that act. MS. REDMAN answered that most university employees were not covered by collective bargaining, by their own choice, but were covered by an internal grievance procedure in operation at the university for 75 years. Number 313 REP. B. DAVIS asked the pitfalls of her amendment. MS. REDMAN said that the pitfalls had already been stated by others at the meeting. She said that while she and the university employees appreciated the intent of the amendment, it was unnecessary. She said that most employees were eager to return to a university grievance policy which had received a year's work by the grievance council, and which was about to be implemented when the court decision concerning the APA was delivered. She said the policy had recently been distributed in anticipation of the passage of HB 148, in hopes it could be placed into effect at the June board meeting. Number 332 REP. B. DAVIS asked why, if what Ms. Redman said was true, would anyone think that the university board or general assembly would try to block the bill. MS. REDMAN said that the objections to the amendment were not with its intent, but with the technical problems dealing with whether the legislature could grant other organizations power over the effective date of the bill. REP. G. DAVIS said he had initially supported the amendment, but opposed it after additional research and discussion with Ms. Redman. He said it leaves it up to one or two people to delay the bill's effective date, for legitimate or illegitimate reasons. Number 350 REP. VEZEY said personnel grievances were only a small part of the scope of the APA. He thought the APA addressed boards and commissions and quasi-judicial responsibilities, but, according to a court decision, the APA procedures applied to university procedures great and small. He said one person had successfully avoided paying a parking ticket by asking for an APA hearing. REP. B. DAVIS said Rep. Vezey's point was well-taken and she believed it was true that not all employee grievances were intended to be heard under APA procedures. She said that those people who had expected their grievances to be heard under APA procedures would need extra time to find out how their grievances would be addressed in a different process. After noting that the university general assembly would meet in June 1993, and that HB 148 would take effect immediately, she withdrew her amendment and expressed her intention to introduce another amendment to change the effective date. Number 378 CHAIR BUNDE noted that the bill still had to be signed by the governor before taking effect. REP. B. DAVIS observed that the bill could be passed by the legislature and be signed by the governor and take effect. CHAIR BUNDE noted that while that would not be typical, it would be possible. He asked whether Rep. B. Davis had withdrawn her amendment. Number 384 REP. B. DAVIS indicated that she had. She then moved an amendment changing the effective date of HB 148 to June 30, 1993. She noted that even without an effective date, the bill would take effect 90 days after it was signed by the governor. REP. TOOHEY asked if a 90-day delay would be harmful. REP. THERRIAULT said he did not think there was a need for a delay. He noted that the bill allowed any grievance process which had started under APA to be completed under APA, and a delay in the effective date would leave a large window of opportunity for many grievances to be started and completed under the costly APA process. CHAIR BUNDE noted the motion and asked if there were any objections. REP. VEZEY objected. CHAIR BUNDE called for a roll call vote. He noted that Rep. Brice was on-line from Fairbanks. REP. BRICE greeted the committee members and encouraged them to proceed. CHAIR BUNDE repeated his call for a vote on the motion. Those voting yes were Reps. B. Davis and Nicholia. Those voting no were Reps. G. Davis, Vezey, Kott, Olberg, Toohey and Bunde. The motion failed 2-6. Chair Bunde asked the will of the committee. REP. VEZEY moved passage of HB 148 with individual recommendations. CHAIR BUNDE asked for objections and, hearing none, declared HB 148 passed with individual recommendations. CHAIR BUNDE then brought HB 210 to the table. HB 210: HIRING OF CHIEF SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS Number 432 TOM ANDERSON, LEGISLATIVE AIDE TO REP. TERRY MARTIN, PRIME SPONSOR, presented and distributed to the committee an amendment to HB 210. REP. BRICE, speaking by teleconference, asked the chair to read the amendment or to have a copy of the amendment faxed to him. CHAIR BUNDE said the amendment would amend page 1, line 9, of the bill to delete the numeral "500" and insert the numeral "1,000." REP. BRICE indicated that he was satisfied with that information. CHAIR BUNDE invited Mr. Anderson to speak to the amendment. MR. ANDERSON said that since he and Rep. Martin last presented HB 210, they had tried to find other ways to change the bill, and might not have changed it to the liking of all representatives. He said that Rep. Martin felt there were problems with the way chief school administrators were paid and the way they dealt with their administrative payrolls and retirement benefits. He said Rep. Martin felt it might be better to amend the bill to raise the number of students that would be the minimum needed to require a chief school administrator. He said there were advantages to having smaller school districts share administrators. Number 284 REP. NICHOLIA voiced disagreement with Mr. Anderson's assertions, saying the bill would not save money. She said that rural school districts had large expenses, including the costs for charter flights for administrators and board members. She mentioned the benefits of having administrators on-site. REP. TOOHEY asked whether administrators could still travel among the different schools in a district under HB 210. MR. ANDERSON answered yes. He also acknowledged that superintendents do travel around rural districts and would have to continue to do so under the bill. He pointed out the close proximity of some school districts and said it would not hurt them to have a single superintendent. Number 512 CHAIR BUNDE noted that Rep. Brice had received an illegal (legal) opinion from the legislative Legal Services which indicated that committee members participating in a meeting by teleconference could vote on amendments but not on the final action on a bill. REP. OLBERG asked if an amendment had been moved and objected to. CHAIR BUNDE answered no, the amendment had been offered. He asked the pleasure of the committee. REP. TOOHEY moved the amendment. REP. OLBERG objected. CHAIR BUNDE noted the objection and called for a roll call vote. Those voting yes were Reps. Kott, Toohey and Bunde. Those voting no were Reps. Vezey, Olberg, B. Davis, Nicholia and G. Davis. The motion failed 3-5. CHAIR BUNDE noted that the committee was then considering the bill without amendments. He invited Carl Rose to testify and noted that there were people waiting to testify from Kuspuk, Anchorage and Petersburg. Number 543 CARL ROSE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ASSOCIATION OF ALASKA SCHOOL BOARDS, testified in Juneau in opposition to HB 210, saying that the association supported local control of school districts. He said that school boards have legal responsibility for all of a district's activities and have large legal exposure. He said school boards are elected to establish policy under the direction of their local communities, and school administrators are hired to administer the execution of such policies. He said superintendents in smaller districts also serve as teachers or principals, as opposed to superintendents in larger school districts, where superintendents are more like chief executive officers. He said that having one administrator could not carry out the spirit of the policies established by five different school boards. He said school districts needed an administrator on-site to deal with negotiation, grievances, policies, budgeting and other issues. He said first-class cities which tax for schools, or communities which qualified for PL-874 funds in lieu of taxes, therefore had a right to have their own school districts. He offered to work with the sponsor or committee to address the issue of educational service delivery and administration, saying that all issues had not been addressed. He said he was not sure of the bill's objective, and said that there would be other ways to save money. Number 593 REP. TOOHEY noted that there was a push on for the state to get its spending in line with its income. She said that bills such as HB 210 were an effort to cut the budget. She asked Mr. Rose to come back with other suggestions as to how to cut government expenses because the state was not going to find another Prudhoe Bay. TAPE 93-57, SIDE B Number 000 MR. ROSE said he would be glad to do so, as he had many recommendations, though some people might not like them. REP. TOOHEY reminded him that the bottom line was that the state was running out of money. Number 006 CHAIR BUNDE said he would support the bill if it saved money. He said he was interested in getting more money in the classroom and allowing less money to leak into other costs along the way to the classroom. He said there were 11 schools which spent more than 10 percent of their budgets on administrative payroll, compared to 3 percent in the Anchorage School District. He noted one school district which served fewer than 500 students but which had 27 people on an administrative payroll earning $1 million in a district with less than 500 students. He said the committee did not hate small school districts, but noted that the state just did not have as much money available as it once did. He apologized if he appeared adversarial, but said his intention was to ensure more money reached classrooms. He said the state took many steps to cut costs, such as holding meetings by teleconference, and suggested remote school districts should try such methods. He acknowledged that school boards needed to be accountable to local communities, but said superintendents are simply employees and could be shared by more than one district. Number 068 MR. ROSE said he might have questions about the figures Chair Bunde had cited, and expressed a preference for using his own figures. He said that some of the information he had provided in response to questions from Rep. Martin involved executive-level and director-level positions, not administrative positions. REP. G. DAVIS said he did not support the bill, but did support its aim of making the educational system aware of the need for changes. He said that if schools could always get whatever money they wanted from the state, there would be no possibility of change. He said if people knew the days of unlimited money were gone, they might be more likely to examine the operations of the educational system. He said he doubted whether Alaska 2000 addressed that issue, as it was likely to result in more educational spending. He said he still had faith in the system and the ability of the educational community to abide by the demands of the public. CHAIR BUNDE invited those at remote sites to testify by teleconference. Number 125 LEO MORGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE KUSPUK SCHOOL DISTRICT, testified via teleconference from Aniak in opposition to HB 210. He doubted that a single superintendent could serve the districts of Iditarod or Kuspuk as they were too large and diverse. He said individual school sites feel neglected within these large school districts. He said linking more than one together would raise too many problems. He said the districts would resist the bill, and predicted many lawsuits if HB 210 passed. CHAIR BUNDE said he had been to Aniak, Bethel, Stony River, Sleetmute and Red Devil and he thought he had some feeling for conditions and diversity. He said he felt that the difference between Aniak and Bethel was no greater than that between Eagle River and Girdwood, or between Spenard and Muldoon, which are all served by one school district and one superintendent. He said he understood the diversity of different areas, but asked him to understand the need for economy. REP. NICHOLIA noted that Girdwood and Eagle River were on the road system, while Bethel was not, and therefore had higher expenses. Number 167 REP. VEZEY pointed out that there were some school districts that covered hundreds of miles. REP. NICHOLIA pointed out that the Yukon Flats and Yukon Koyukuk school districts were in regions. CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no further requests to testify, closed public testimony on HB 210 and asked the will of the committee. Number 186 REP. TOOHEY asked Mr. Rose to return in a week or two to discuss revisions to the bill with the sponsor and possibly with a subcommittee of the HESS Committee. CHAIR BUNDE asked Mr. Rose if he had time and interest in such a meeting. MR. ROSE replied, "I would do so willingly." Number 200 CHAIR BUNDE appointed a subcommittee of the HESS Committee, consisting of Rep. Toohey as chair, with Rep. Nicholia and Rep. G. Davis as members. He asked Rep. Toohey to convene a meeting at a suitable time such that it could report back to the HESS Committee within a week, and invited anyone else who wanted to attend to do so. He also asked that Rep. Martin be notified of those plans. REP. B. DAVIS said the state needed to have more efficient school operations, but said she did not think HB 210 would save money. She suggested volunteer workers might help make changes. She also said that one superintendent could not serve four or five school districts at a time, and that superintendents did not last more than three years even when they were responsible for one school district. CHAIR BUNDE brought HB 195 to the table and noted that the teleconferenced portion of the meeting was at an end. HB 195: AUTHORIZING YOUTH COURTS CHAIR BUNDE noted that it was decided at an earlier hearing on the bill that there was a need for some adjustment to the bill. He opened public testimony on the bill and, noting no one wishing to testify, closed public testimony on the bill and opened committee discussion. REP. VEZEY passed out a blank committee substitute (CS) of the bill, which he said included all amendments adopted at the previous meeting, including the creation of a new juvenile justice grant fund. He said that, as the bill carried no fiscal note and contained no appropriation to the fund, the department would not be able to adopt regulations to carry out the purpose of the act. He said Legal Services advised him that the bill had to contain such an explicit denial, but he questioned the need for inclusion of such a denial. Number 285 REP. OLBERG recalled that there had been some disagreement on the bill at the earlier meeting. He said he had had no problems with the original bill and asked if the committee had yet adopted the committee substitute. CHAIR BUNDE answered no. REP. B. DAVIS asked if there was testimony on the CS. CHAIR BUNDE answered no. Number 298 REP. B. DAVIS moved adoption of the CS as a working draft of HB 195. REP. OLBERG objected. CHAIR BUNDE asked for a roll call vote. There followed a moment of confused discussion in which a point of order was called but not acknowledged. REP. B. DAVIS asked the sponsor of the bill or his representative to speak to the CS version. Number 302 PAULA TERREL, AIDE TO REP. SITTON, testified on HB 95. She said that Rep. Sitton did not object to the CS, though he felt that the substitution of the term "person" for "nonprofit" was slightly unwieldy. She said he thought it was less likely that individual people would start youth courts than nonprofit corporations. Ms. Terrel stated, "But that they are included, and the department still may adopt regulations for this, and in view of that, he doesn't have a problem with the separation of the funds. He accepts it." CHAIR BUNDE asked if Rep. Sitton had reacted to the fact that the CS version did not include any money to implement the bill. MS. TERREL said that Rep. Sitton would have liked to have the money, but if it was not there, it was not there. She commented that if someone in the Finance Committee wanted to amend it ... Number 322 REP. OLBERG said that he did not see the necessity of creating a new grant fund or eliminating the old grant fund. He said the original proposal would have converted the community legal assistance grant fund into the legal assistance and juvenile justice grant fund. He said that the bill now created the juvenile justice grant fund, but gave it no money. He questioned the necessity of that action. REP. B. DAVIS asked if it would be possible to include new language that would allow money to be transferred from one of the separated funds to another, now that the co-mingling of funds issue had been addressed. MS. TERREL said she had checked with the Department of Community and Regional Affairs and had learned that there was no money available in the legal assistance fund. Number 338 REP. B. DAVIS asked Rep. Vezey to explain again why he preferred the use of the term "person" instead of "nonprofit." REP. VEZEY repeated that the legal definition of "person" encompassed almost all of those organizations that could provide a youth courts, including nonprofit corporations, but not limiting it to nonprofit corporations. Number 356 REP. B. DAVIS asked if it was possible to make a simple amendment instead. REP. VEZEY noted that an organization did not have to be nonprofit, or a corporation, to provide public service. He said the legal protections formerly provided by the corporate structure had been weakened over the last 20 years, and there were reasons not to use such a structure. Number 369 CHAIR BUNDE said using the word person provided the greatest possible flexibility in the establishment of a youth court. REP. B. DAVIS asked if the bill contained a definition of the term "person." CHAIR BUNDE said the definition was contained in statute. Number 375 REP. VEZEY said the term "person" was defined in AS 01.10.60 paragraph 8. He said virtually no person or group was excluded by that definition. CHAIR BUNDE said that the definition might include the Alaska Native Brotherhood. REP. VEZEY said that a political subdivision of the state was not a nonprofit corporation. REP. TOOHEY asked Rep. Vezey if there were any other changes to the bill contained in the CS other than the two changes he mentioned, those being the creation of a new grant fund and the substitution of the term "person" for "nonprofit." REP. VEZEY said that to his knowledge those were the only changes. REP. TOOHEY commented that there had been changes to Section 4 to include municipalities instead of just cities. REP. VEZEY said that this change had been made by his office. REP. TOOHEY asked if another amendment had not deleted from the bill lines 4-7 on page 4. She said that if he could show her that those were the only changes, and that the sponsor was happy with the changes, she would believe the bill was a good piece of legislation. REP. VEZEY said that the deletion she mentioned had not been accepted by the committee, nor had it been included in the CS. Number 409 REP. OLBERG withdrew his objection to adopting the CS version of HB 195. CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no objection, then declared that the committee had adopted the CS version of HB 195 as a working draft. He noted that the next committee of referral was the House Finance Committee. Number 412 REP. TOOHEY moved passage of CSHB 195 with individual recommendations. CHAIR BUNDE asked for objections and hearing none, declared that CSHB 195 had passed with individual recommendations. CHAIR BUNDE adjourned the meeting at 4:24 p.m.