Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/15/1998 05:05 PM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES
April 15, 1998
5:05 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman
Representative Ivan Ivan
Representative Scott Ogan
Representative Mark Hodgins
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Gene Kubina
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 33
Relating to the allocation of Alaska salmon.
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
* HOUSE BILL NO. 483
"An Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring
certain nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a
sport fishing guide; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 483
SHORT TITLE: SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES
SPONSOR(S): RULES
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
4/07/98 2906 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/07/98 2906 (H) FISHERIES, RESOURCES
4/15/98 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
JAMES HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant
to Representative Pete Kott
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 204
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-6848
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 483.
HAZEL NELSON, Representative
Becharof Corporation
1577 C Street, Suite 304
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
Telephone: (907) 263-9820
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483.
JOEL HARD, Representative
Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency
P.O. Box 388
Palmer, Alaska 99645-0388
Telephone: (907) 746-9139
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of part of HB 483.
DICK ROHRER
P.O. Box 2219
Kodiak, Alaska 99615
Telephone: (907) 486-5835
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483.
MICHAEL WALLER, Owner
Easy Freeze
P.O. Box 508
Valdez, Alaska 99686
Telephone: (907) 8354208
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 483.
DONNA WALLER
P.O. Box 508
Valdez, Alaska 99686
Telephone: (907) 8354208
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 483.
VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member
Board of Fisheries
878 Lynwood Way
North Pole, Alaska 99705
Telephone: (907) 456-3885
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483.
RAY DEBARDELABEN, Sport Guide
P.O. Box 4357
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-5097
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483.
REUBEN HANKE, Owner
Guide Camp
P.O. Box 624
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 262-5097
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483.
ALAN LEMASTER
P.O. Box 222
Gakona, Alaksa 99586
Telephone: (907) 822-3664
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483.
BUD HODSON, Owner
Sport Fishing Lodge; Former Chairman
Board of Fisheries; Former Chairman
Guide Charter Task Force
KEVIN DELANY, Director,
Division of Sport Fish
Department of Fish and Game
333 Raspberry Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99518
Telephone: (907) 267-2224
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-15, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on
Fisheries meeting to order at 5:05 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Austerman, Ivan, Ogan and
Hodgins.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that HCR 33 was scheduled to be heard but
the prime sponsor pulled it off of tonight's schedule.
HB 483 - SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that the committee would hear HB 483,"An
Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring certain
nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a sport
fishing guide; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0021
JAMES HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant to Representative Pete Kott,
read the sponsor statement into the record: "House Bill 483 was
introduced to improve the stewardship of the fisheries resource.
Section 1 of the bill seeks to require that nonresident alien sport
fishermen, except those of Canada and Mexico, be guided by
registered sport fish guides. This language will curtail mistakes
and abuses by aliens who are often less familiar with our State's
Fish and Game regulations which are complicated and may change
throughout the season or from season to season.
"Section 2 provides language that requires processors of sport
caught fish to register with ADFG [Alaska Department of Fish and
Game] and maintain records of the sport fish processed. Within
this section sport fish processing is defined to include activities
associated with sport fish processing or those associated with
preparation for shipping. Specifically omitted are activities
which may be provided by guides in their normal course of business.
This bill will assist enforcement efforts and validate a portion of
information derived from the statewide harvest survey, a
statistical sampling. All users of our fisheries resource will
benefit by additional accountability of the processed fish shipped
from our state each summer."
Number 0061
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that it is not his intention to move this
bill tonight. He stated that they just received a memorandum from
George Utermohle of Legislative Council that raises some questions
as to the legality or the constitutionality of placing a
requirement on aliens to have a guide.
Number 0100
HAZEL NELSON, Representative, Becharof Corporation, testified via
teleconference from Anchorage that she can see the merit in the
bill. She stated that she grew up in Bristol Bay and has both
commercial and sport fished. She stated that the issue is becoming
more important as the alien fishermen and hunters are rising in
number. She stated that it is great for tourism but is concerned
as to what is going to happen to the resource. Twenty years from
now she does not want to look back and wish that something was
done. She stated that it is important to move the bill forward.
She stated that it is hard to get something like this addressed
through the Board of Fisheries but she felt the legislature could
do it. She stated that the problem with processors, processing
sport caught fish is that in the commercial communities those fish
that are caught are often left in the freezers. She stated that
there is a community on the peninsula that is very upset because
they have not had that much subsistence fish and yet there is king
salmon that is just sitting in the freezers when they could of been
subsistence fish or at least gone up the rivers and spawned. She
stated that HB 483 is one way to get a handle on the amount of fish
that is be processed and sent away. She stated that she hoped that
the bill passes.
Number 0178
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that one of the concerns they have,
because of the opinion by Legislative Legal Department, is in order
for HB 483 to be constitutionally correct there has to be some
compelling state interest, and in order to prove so there has to
documentation that shows there is a problem with the alien sport
fishermen. He asked if there was anything that she knew of that
would show violations.
Number 0195
MS. NELSON replied that the community of Egegik is implementing a
trespass policy because of the huge influx of alien fishermen. She
stated that they are going to try and document it this summer. She
stated that the corporation is going to have to invest a lot of
money into it to do it right. She stated that down the road she
would have some information to give the committee.
Number 0214
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if she could submit something in writing.
He stated that the area of the bill that speaks to processing of
sport caught fish was added to the bill because of petition or
resolution by the Board of Fisheries. He stated that the committee
is interested in pursuing that to whatever degree he can.
Number 0240
JOEL HARD, Representative, Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency,
testified via teleconference from Palmer that they have a mixed
opinion on the legislation. He stated that they are supportive of
Section 2 and feel that it will be advantageous to maintain the
records, as it would improve their ability to document cases after
the fact. He stated that Section 1 of the bill is an effort to
address over-limit complaints by European fishermen. He has not
seen those types of ethnic restrictions before and it will most
likely result in a discrimination challenge. It suggests that
Europeans must be more violative than the other groups, which has
not been sufficiently documented. He explained that in the case of
big game guiding, the guided service is mandated for certain
species, more for the added safety of the participates then it is
for ensuring regulation. It seems like this provision is more
targeted towards ensuring that there is that level of compliance in
the sport fishery which he does not oppose. However, that job
would more appropriately fall on the agency. He stated that it is
likely that the agency's enforcement personnel would be burdened by
trying to determine in the field who is from where. He stated that
if someone was fishing and the salmon was not visible they could
state that they were fishing for a different species. He stated
that in the case of individuals that go to license vendors, added
falsifications could result from this legislation which would
burden the agency because it would take a great deal of time to
validate or invalidate those falsifications in foreign countries.
He reiterated that they are supportive of Section 2 of the bill,
however they have reservations with Section 1 of the bill.
Number 0295
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that there has been some suggestions to
go to a catch and release only system for non-resident aliens.
Number 0300
MR. HARD stated that he thought a catch and release system would be
fairly difficult to enforce as there are nonresident aliens fishing
in parties with residents. He stated it would be simple for them
to claim that they were under a resident's bag limit.
Number 0308
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he understood correctly that the agency
does not have any documentation at all, as to a problem with alien
fishermen.
Number 0311
MR. HARD replied that they do get a lot of complaints but the
complaints come from the remote areas and are difficult to
validate. He stated that in Palmer, he deals with the complaints
on a regular basis but a lot of them are complaints from residents
that are observing this kind of activity going on in sport fishing
lodges, where guides are already employed. He stated that he did
not know if the bill would alleviate that concern. He stated they
do get plenty complaints of over limit cases, on residents
nonresidents and aliens. Those are not validated complaints
because the people making the complaints can't say who is from
where.
Number 0326
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that if it is just the case of over
fishing then the catch and release would solve some of those
problems as far as where the guided lodges are concerned.
Number 0330
MR. HARD replied that it certainly could.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he could give him something in writing.
MR. HARD stated that he would.
Number 0336
DICK ROHRER, testified via teleconference from Kodiak that he would
encourage HB 483 be moved along. He stated that he is especially
supportive of Section 1. He pointed out the alien nonresident big
game hunters are required to hire a guide for all species, which is
a resource issue with aliens. It came into being when large camps
of Germans and Swiss were taking a lot of moose, unguided. He
quoted from the refuge manager's report that four nonresident
fishermen from Washington took home 12,000 pounds of king salmon
fillets. He explained that he has personally observed seven
Germans from a German fishing club, camped at the outlet of Uganik
lake for 17 days. They took 60 silver salmon in one day; the bag
limited is 5 per day. A pilot told him that they requested a
flight out two days later and the fish did not have any
refrigeration. He stated that refuge manager Jay Bellinger, felt
the bill would be a helpful enforcement tool for him, as they have
two cases against alien fishermen but the difficulty they have in
proving that they are "alien sport fishermen here actually guiding
is because the clients don't speak English". There is also no
control in tracking fish that is shipped overseas.
Number 0400
MR. ROHRER explained that he does not think the reason this is
occurring is because alien fishermen are not familiar with Alaskan
Law. It is just the opposite they are coming here as guides
bringing clients and are not in compliance operating on the refuge.
He stated that the refuge manager in Kodiak is very supportive of
the bill, as there are compelling reasons for the bill. He
encouraged passage of HB 483.
Number 0418
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked what he thought of the suggestion of going
to catch and release on all alien systems.
Number 0423
MR. ROHRER stated that he did not have a problem with that or even
with a severely reduced bag limit. He stated that in all the years
that he has been guiding in Kodiak, he gets check on a regular
basis when the protection agency is in the fields for commercial
fisheries in the spring, but he has never been checked in August or
September. He submitted that in remote areas it is not convenient
for them to check sport fishermen at that time.
Number 0447
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he could send the committee something
in writing.
Number 0458
MICHAEL WALLER, Owner, Easy Freeze, testified via teleconference
from Valdez that Easy Freeze is a small processing place that only
processes for sport fishermen. He stated that HB 483 is
discriminatory, in that it pinpoints particular countries. He
stated that alien should refer to all alien sport fishermen. He
stated that he has problems with Section 2, it should not be the
responsibility of the processor to get the location, license and
number of the fish that is caught. The charter boat captain should
be the one documenting since he was there and the processor has
enough to do in keeping up with the tremendous flow of fish when
they come in. He asserted that a catch and release program would
very seriously hurt or put the small processors out of business.
Number 0499
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked what percentage of his business is from
alien sport fishermen.
Number 0501
MR. WALLER stated that his wife could better answer that question.
Number 0504
DONNA WALLER testified via teleconference from Valdez that they do
keep a lot of records that the bill is asking for but it would be
added work to ask for licenses. She stated that they keep records
on the species of fish that comes in and what they want done to the
fish. She stated that last year they did not do much business with
Canada due to shipping problems. They would process the other
alien sport fishermen's fish and then they would take it up to
Anchorage for the international zoning process.
Number 0522
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if they do a lot processing for Canadians.
Number 0524
MS. WALLER replied that they maybe did ten percent, once they found
out the problem with shipping the fish, they would process the fish
and then have them take it to Anchorage on their own.
Number 0532
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the majority of their business was done
with alien sport fishermen.
Number 0533
MS. WALLER replied that maybe it is 40 percent.
Number 0546
VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member, Board of Fisheries, testified via
teleconference from Fairbanks that he is speaking as a member of
the Board of Fisheries. He stated that he is the board member that
made the motion to bring this forward to the legislature. He
stated that when the Board travels all over the state they hear a
tremendous amount of testimony regarding the various problems in
each area. He stated that the concern of the Department of Public
Safety is not a concern, he is a registered guide and on the form
to get ones hunting licenses there is a place for a nonresident or
a nonresident alien sport fishing to fill in the name of the
registered guide that they have hired. He asserted that this same
thing could be done on the fishing license.
MR. UMPHENOUR stated that nonresident aliens sport fishermen are a
problem. He stated that he attended a hunting and fishing show in
Hanover, Germany in November of 1996. At the show the Alexander
Lake Lodge had a giant booth and were showing a video of spawned
out king salmon that they had snagged on the spawning grounds. He
stated that he could send the pictures of that presentation of the
king salmon with the milt running out of them. He informed the
committee that at the Board of Fisheries meeting in Bristol Bay,
they had testimony from the former chairman of the board and sport
fish lodge owner Bud Hodson, that one French owned lodge was flying
out about 9,200 pounds of king salmon daily to Anchorage to be
processed. Mr. Umphenour stated that he owns a meat and fish
processing plant in Fairbanks and he processes thousands of pounds
of salmon a year for sport fishermen. He stated that one French
airline pilot took home in excess of 3,100 pounds of smoked salmon
to France from a two week trip to Alaska. He asserted that in the
Sandy and Cinder River on the North side of the Alaskan Peninsula
there is a group of Alien fishermen that are not set up as
legitimate sport fish operators but they are bringing in dozens of
people in and are fishing on the spawning grounds of the two small
streams. The escapement objectives of these streams are less then
1500 king salmon per year and they are catching 50 percent of these
goals, putting the small systems in jeopardy.
Number 0588
MR. UMPHENOUR stated that in the Chignik area there are a group of
alien sport fishermen called the "moonies" that are causing
resource problems. He stated that the problem is that the aliens
can't speak English or pretend not to be able to speak English.
There is a definite problem with these aliens and it is an issue
of conservation. The board is closing spawning grounds for
conservation purposes because of the alien sport fishermen.
Number 0604
MR. UMPHENOUR referred to Section 2 and he stated that he has
talked to the "detachment commander of every detachment of state
troopers fish and wildlife protection in the state." This would be
a good enforcement tool for the Department of Public Safety,
currently, if the department suspects that someone is catching over
their bag limit, they would have to get a search warrant from the
judge in order to look at the records regarding the issue.
Number 0618
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked what he thought about the catch and
release idea.
Number 0619
MR. UMPHENOUR replied that he did not like that idea because it
would cause people to target fish on the spawning grounds and no
one knows how productive a released fish is on the spawning grounds
after that trauma.
Number 0625
RAY DEBARDELABEN, Sport Guide, testified via teleconference from
Fairbanks in support of HB 483. He stated that he has seen
countless numbers of nonresident aliens taking more of their share
of kings. He stated that he has watched them at the mouth of Lake
Creek catch fish send them off to be processed and come back the
same day to catch more. He said "Probably 80 of 90 percent of the
violations are coming from the nonresident aliens on the over
taking of fish." He stated that the has also more then a dozen
boat accidents per year out at Lake Creek because they have no
experience in driving a boat. He stated that he did not think the
catch and release system is a good idea as the alien sport
fishermen want to take fish home and they need an incentive to come
over here.
Number 0651
REUBEN HANKE, Owner, Guide Camp, testified via teleconference from
Fairbanks in favor of HB 483. He stated that he has had a lot of
experience with alien sport fishermen. They tend to come to a camp
fish one time and then go rent a boat. He stated that they usually
have a hard enough time conveying to the person that they want to
rent the boat nonetheless trying to figure out how to operate the
boat or to be aware of the safety concerns. He stated that the
Kenai River is fairly hectic place to fish especially when people
are not familiar with the rules of the road. He stated that
habitat degradation is also occurring as a result because they can
not read the signs and are fishing in areas where they are not
supposed to be fishing. He stated that it is an enforcement
nightmare. He stated that the nonresident alien sport fishermen
will not come if a catch and release system is in place. He stated
that everyone is entitled to take their limit. A catch and release
system will have an economic impact on the state. He stated that
he is in favor of the processing section of the bill and adding a
fishing license number requirement on their forms should not cause
any kind of problem for those people. He stated that it would help
enforcement.
TAPE 98-15, SIDE B
Number 0001
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that his safety concerns are valid. He
asked the rest of the people who are going to testify tonight to
also submit their concerns or facts in writing in order to build a
case based upon the legal opinion of being able to determine that
there is a compelling reason to put the restrictions on the alien
sport fishermen.
Number 0035
ALAN LEMASTER, testified via teleconference from Gakona that there
have been violations in Gakona that have gone unchecked for several
years. He stated that if we can't check foreigners whose over
fishing with rules that we have now, more rules might not help,
since there is not the enforcement that is needed. He stated that
he is concerned over the wording in the second section because as
a guide, in the event he has a client on the river and he goes king
salmon fishing, fillets the salmon, and ships it home, according to
the bill he has then become a processor and that will then cost him
$490 per year for his processing permit. He stated that as a guide
he does that as a service for the clients and does not make money
off of it. If the guides do not help get clients get the fish home
they do not have a reason to go fishing. He stated that 40 percent
of the time he has to assist his clients in getting the fish home.
He asked if his understanding of the bill was correct.
Number 0097
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that they would have to go at look at
that again.
MR. LEMASTER replied that he would appreciate if someone were to
take a closer look because it could read that way and someone may
be fined for just doing a courtesy to their guests.
Number 0109
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he would be opposed as a guide to
having the same reporting requirements that a processor would have
but without the fee.
MR. LEMASTER stated that he has been discussing that with other
guides and this year they will keep a log on every fish caught and
kept.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked how he felt about catch and release.
Number 0134
MR. LEMASTER replied that they promote catch and release every
chance they get because the fishery is extremely fragile so as a
result of that thinking, the Department of Fish and Game took away
30 or 40 percent of the fishing days last year and then they had
the biggest year they have ever had. He stated that he does not
think the department has good science to back up the rules and
regulations that they make. He pointed out that some of this
record keeping may help them. He stated as far as catch and
release mandate with the alien sport fishermen, they do not usually
use guides. He stated that if the department can't catch six
Germans that are camped out in the same spot for 2 weeks that are
taking 1,000 pounds of filleted fish out, he did not know if catch
and release is going to do any good. He thought people should have
the opportunity to catch a fish. He stated that most of the abuse
is to the red salmon fishery, because 3 reds can be taken each day
and it is really hard to tell how many fish they have or how long
they have been fishing since they have two or three locations where
they have freezers. He stated that years ago he allowed alien
sport fishermen to freeze their salmon in his freezer and they went
home with several hundred pounds of red salmon. It is hard to
determine what it is that they are doing because they are in Alaksa
for so long. He stated that they could have also been keeping fish
in someone else's freezer as well. He pointed out that they get
$65 a pound for salmon in Germany. Without adequate enforcement of
all these rules will not do any good.
Number 0202
BUD HODSON, Owner, Sport Fishing Lodge; Former Chairman, Board of
Fisheries; Former Chairman, Guide Charter Task Force, testified via
teleconference from Anchorage that it is an enforcement and
fairness issue to create a level playing field. He stated that
regarding the enforcement issue it is very difficult to go up to a
group of aliens who do not speak English or pretend not to, and be
able to get an answer from them. He stated that it is easy for
them to keep double bag limits by fishing in the morning send those
fish to be processed and then go back out in the afternoon and
harvest more. He stated that enforcement wise, it is hard to sort
it all out as far as when they arrived and which fish is theirs.
Their response is to just shake their heads, therefore, he asked
how is it possible to make a case. He stated that operators come
over from Europe and set up camp and are in business yet they have
no business license or a workmen's compensation policy, they don't
pay taxes or have U.S. Coastguard licenses etc. He stated that he
is offended by this as an operator, as he has to adhere to all
these regulations and they do not. He stated that as an operator
if his guides break regulations or if his clients break laws he
could be held liable. The alien sport fishermen in the same
position are not held responsible.
Number 0241
MR. HODSON stated that if Europeans are required to have licensed
guides that speak English an enforcement officer can go and
actually make a case on some of this stuff. He stated that in
regard to catch and release he does not see a reason to penalize
all Europeans, the goal should be to enforce the bag limits to
create a level playing field where enforcement can do their job.
He stated his concern is that the minute he is called a processor
and according to the bill he would be because he does fillet and
freeze the salmon, the Department of Economic Conservation would
then want him to meet all the requirements of a fish processor. He
stated that every time there is a new regulation on the industry
there is a liability to not break the regulations. It becomes
almost impossible not to. He gave an example of a problem with the
U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife because a guide forgot to have
his registration in his possession he might lose four operating
permits. He stated that there are government agencies out there
that are trying to hammer them on the most minute things. He
stated that the processing requirement is questionable. He stated
that they do not accept anybody else's fish, just their clients and
it is as a courtesy of the charter.
Number 0322
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the processors section becomes law
would he comfortable with it if there was an exception for lodges
but they were required to maintain the same records.
MR. HODSON replied that he would not have any problem with that.
It is already in regulation that the Department of Fish and Game
can get reporting records from any lodge. He stated that a fish
processor does not have to register as a fishing guide and they are
not required by law to report.
Number 0336
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he would give some thought on what the
language would be to exempt lodges and operators from the
processing requirements.
MR. HODSON replied that he would.
Number 0344
KEVIN DELANY, Director, Division of Sport Fish, Alaska Department
of Fish and Game, testified via teleconference from Anchorage that
the bottom line is that the enforcement effort afforded to the
sport fisheries in this state is inadequate. There is not enough
manpower, there are 470,000 anglers in the state annually and 15 to
17 thousand of these are foreign nationals. They are easy to spot
and are easy to see. He stated that this legislation is to try and
go to the root. He reiterated the need for a statutory foundation
for sport fish guiding and more enforcement. He stated that he
appreciated the committee's efforts and would work with the
committee. He stated the statutory finding should lay out what
guides are what they do what the penalties are what reporting
requirements need to be in place.
Number 0406
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there were any more comments. Hearing
none, he stated that HB 483 will be held over.
ADJOURNMENT
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN adjourned the House Special Committee on
Fisheries meeting at 6:15 P.M.
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