Legislature(1997 - 1998)
09/30/1997 01:12 PM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES
September 30, 1997
1:12 p.m.
Palmer, Alaska
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan
Representative Gene Kubina
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Ivan Ivan, Vice Chairman
Representative Mark Hodgins
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 149
"An Act relating to the management of salmon fisheries; and
providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 149
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) KOHRING, Masek, Mulder, Cowdery
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/19/97 399 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/19/97 399 (H) FSH, RESOURCES, FINANCE
02/27/97 519 (H) COSPONSOR(S): COWDERY
04/28/97 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
04/28/97 (H) MINUTE(FSH)
04/30/97 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
04/30/97 (H) MINUTE(FSH)
05/05/97 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
05/05/97 (H) MINUTE(FSH)
05/07/97 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
05/07/97 (H) MINUTE(FSH)
09/12/97 (H) FSH AT 1:00 PM DILLINGHAM LIO
09/12/97 (H) MINUTE(FSH)
09/30/97 (H) FSH AT 1:00 PM MAT-SU
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE VICTOR KOHRING
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 421
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2186
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 149.
BOB MARTINSON, Chairman
Cordova District Fishermen United
900 Iroquois Drive
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 373-2627
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
KEN SVETC
7715 Highlander Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99518
Telephone: (907) 349-6028
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
TOM NAMTVEDT, Commercial Fisherman
5640 Portage Drive
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-7060
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
WARREN OLSON
5961 Orth Circle
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
Telephone: (907) 346-4440
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 149.
DONALD BREADWATER, Subsistence Fisherman
P.O. Box 875082
Wasilla, Alaska 99687
Telephone: Not provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
RON WILSON, Sport Fisherman
P.O. Box 871706
Wasilla, Alaska 99687
Telephone: (907) 373-6700
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 149.
CLIFF JUDKINS, Subsistence Fisherman
P.O. Box 871310
Wasilla Alaska 99687
Telephone: (907) 323-3591
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
PAGE HERRING, Northern District Setnetter
P.O. Box 878837
Wasilla, Alaska 99687
Telephone: (907) 376-7243
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
LEVI GUSTAFSON, Northern District Commercial Fisherman
P.O.Box 3328
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 745-8145
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
DON SHERWOOD, President of Alaska Boating Association
1640 Brink Street
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
Telephone: (907) 333-6268
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 149.
KORY BLAKE, Commercial Fisherman
P.O. BoX 1706
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 376-8325
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
BILL PACE, Commercial Fisherman
HC 31, Box 5079P
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-2286
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
EMMETT HEIDEMANN, Sport Guide
P.O. Box 770061
Eagle River, Alaska 99577
Telephone: (907) 694-4497
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
EUGENE SVETC, Sport and Commercial Fisherman
1407 West 32nd
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
Telephone: (907) 274-6200
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
BRUCE KNOWLES, Sport Fisherman and Guide
P.O. Box 873206
Wasilla, Alaska 99687
Telephone: (907) 745-4965
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 149.
ELLA RING
P.O. Box 10-3212
Anchorage, Alaska 99510
Telephone: Not Provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
WILLIAM JARVIS, Sport Fisherman
P.O.Box 870910
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-1115
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 149.
RAINY BELL, Northern District Setnetter
P.O. Box 878837
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-7243
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
JIM HERMAN, Setnetter
P.O. Box 451
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 745-3558
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
NOEL WOODS
P.O. Box 827
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 745-3027
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
ROBERT HALL, Representative
Houston Chamber of Commerce
P.O. Box 871906
Wasilla, Alaska 99687
Telephone: (907) 892-6557
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 149.
DAVE RING, Commercial Fisherman
5033 West 80th Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99510
Telephone: (907) 243-0737
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
LLOYD MONTGOMERY, Commercial Fisherman
P.O.Box 1188
Cordova, Alaska 99574
Telephone: (907) 429-3705
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
JUNE BURKHART
P.O. Box 204
Willow, Alaska 99688
Telephone: (907) 495-6337
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
JERRY MCCUNE, President
Cordova District Fishermen United
P.O. Box 372
Cordova, Alaska 99574
Telephone: (907) 424-7488
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 149.
DAN TUCKER, Charter Guide
4330 Wickersham Way
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-2630
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
STACIE STIGAR, Representative
Greater Wasilla Chamber of Commerce
1830 East Parks Highway
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-1299
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 149.
DAVID HARRISON
P.O. Box 1105
Chickaloon, Alaska 99674
Telephone: (907) 745-0707
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 149.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-25, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on
Fisheries meeting to order at 12:12 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Austerman and Kubina.
Representative Ogan arrived at 1:20 p.m. Members absent were
Representatives Ivan and Hodgins.
HB 149 - PREFER CONSUMPTIVE USE SALMON FISHERIES
Number 0034
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN announced that the committee would hear HB 149
"An Act relating to the management of salmon fisheries; and
providing for an effective date." He stated that the committee has
handed out a list of ideas that the committee would like to hear
comments on in addition to HB 149. He stated that there are a lot
of issues that need to be heard in relation to HB 149.
Number 0176
REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING, Sponsor, stated that HB 149 is to
primarily direct the Board of Fisheries to give the first priority,
after the escapement goals are met, to the consumptive user; which
are the sport fishermen and personal and subsistence user. He
stated that the bill is only applicable to Cook Inlet because Cook
Inlet is the only area that has over 500,000 angler days per year.
He stated it does not apply to Southeast Alaska, Kodiak or
Dillingham. He stated that there are problems with the numbers of
coho and red salmon in the Mat-Su valley. He stated that it is
reflective of the F.I.S.H (Fairness in Salmon Harvest) Initiative.
He stated that 28,000 people signed the F.I.S.H. Initiative.
Number 0358
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that there were restrictions placed
on the rivers by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G),
such as a 1 salmon limit, restriction of bait and hooks, in order
to let more fish escape. He stated that as a result people did not
have access to those fish, which exacerbated the whole problem. He
stated that people did not get enough fish this year to put on
their tables. He stated that the economy has grown in recent years
due to the sport fish industry. He stated that lodge owners,
grocery stores, charter owners, bait shops and gas stations have
had good economic benefits from a strong sport fish industry. He
stated that as a result of the stream closures and restrictions,
many businesses have lost money.
Number 0553
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that he does not think the resource
is being managed correctly. He stated that there does seem to be
a correlation between the driftnet fleet and the fish that return
to the stream and rivers. He stated that this bill would place
restrictions on the commercial intercept in Upper Cook Inlet. He
stated that the way the fish are divided up currently, gives the
personal consumptive user 3 percent of the resource and the
commercial fishermen 95 percent. He stated that the fish are not
being distributed on a fair basis but with HB 149 there will be a
few more fish for the personal consumptive user. He stated that
allocation of 5 percent of the statewide resource will not
devastate the commercial industry or put them out of business. He
stated that this legislation should not be feared. He stated that
the resource is being wiped out in the Cook Inlet area and there is
not going to be a sustained yield which will hurt all users.
Number 1123
REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring if he is
convinced HB 149 is constitutional and asked how it relates to the
subsistence priority debate that is occurring.
Number 1213
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that he thought it was
constitutional. He stated that constitution refers to providing
for a sustained yield which is one of the goals of the bill. He
stated that he wants to preserve and protect the resource for
everyone with first priority to the sport fisherman and subsistence
user. He reiterated that ADF&G is not meeting his area's needs by
placing restrictions on the fishermen.
Number 1359
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that the Mat-Su Borough is the fastest
growing sport fishing area and he referred to the combat fishing on
the Kenai River. He stated that there were twice as many
nonresident sport fishing licenses sold as there were resident
licenses sold and asked what Representative Kohring thought about
an out of state restriction on salmon.
Number 1440
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that there is a lot of economic gain
from nonresident sport fishing and he would try to not restrict
nonresident sport fishing. He stated that there are a lot of
driftnet fishermen from the lower 48 states.
Number 1554
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he would like to see residents
gain more from their resources. He stated that there have now been
close to 1 millon nonresident licenses and he asked when is it
appropriate to place restrictions. He stated that in the Prince
William Sound area there were quite a few coho salmon available and
people were still complaining that they did not get enough. He
stated that charter boats take out 6 people at a time and they are
allowed to catch 36 salmon. He stated that nonresidents seem to
believe that it is their right to catch the limit and feel that it
is a guarantee instead of a sport. He stated that tourism is a
good industry and it does bring in money but he questioned if it is
appropriate that people are taking boxes and boxes of fish out of
Alaska. He referred to the problem with the R.V. fishermen in the
Kenai who are paying for their vacation with their abundant salmon
catch. He stated that the question is how does the legislature
ensure that people can make a living in Alaska without trying to
hurt the other interests.
Number 1849
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that he is not sure where the line
would be drawn. He stated that a restriction on sport fishermen
would be a decision for ADF&G. He stated that he feels that there
is enough of the resource to go around, it just needs to be
allocated in a fair way. He stated that 3 percent is not a fair
percentage.
Number 1925
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring to explain what
he means by 3 percent. He asked if it is 3 percent of all the
species taken because if so the largest number salmon available is
pink salmon. He asked Representative Kohring if he means that the
sport fishermen in Cook Inlet will take 3 percent of the king
salmon based on the total number of all the species or if he means
3 percent of the total state wide king salmon stock.
Number 2006
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that he is talking about 3 percent
of all the species.
Number 2015
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that pink salmon make up the largest
percentage of salmon available. He said "And you don't want to
fish for pink salmon. You do not want to take 5 percent of that
and 5 percent of the kings and 5 percent of the reds. You want to
take the cream of the crop. You want to make sure you get 80
percent of the king salmon and then that you consider that being 5
percent of the total resource." He asked Representative Kohring if
that was accurate.
Number 2035
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING responded that was essentially accurate. He
stated that pinks are not the pre-dominate species in the streams
and rivers of the Mat-Su Borough, it is primarily sockeye and coho
salmon.
Number 2105
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring why he is
counting all of the species in the statewide total, especially the
statewide total of pink salmon when pink salmon are not being
targeted in the Mat-Su Borough. He stated that is what is
misleading to people. He stated that Representative Kohring is
counting the statewide number of pink salmon in his total and is
stating that they are only taking 3 percent of the all species in
the statewide harvest when they are not fishing all the species.
Number 2126
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated the percentage is 3 percent of all
the salmon species.
Number 2128
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that it is a percentage of the total
stocks but Representative Kohring does not want to take five
percent of every species because he would feel that only 5 percent
of the king salmon run would not be fair. He wants one species to
be able to be caught that would add up to five percent of the
entire statewide stocks, all species combined.
Number 2155
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that issue is not addressed in the
legislation. He stated that the technical details have not entered
in the legislation. He stated that issue of species access can be
addressed or it can be left up to ADF&G to decide.
Number 2227
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA replied that he wanted Representative Kohring
to understand the problem he has with the legislation is in the way
he is defining his argument; by stating that his area is only
getting 3 percent of the fish is an unfair argument. He asked if
Representative Kohring thought that the significant increase in the
number of people fishing in the Deshka River and other areas have
degraded that habitat and is affecting the salmon in the area.
Number 2320
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that it is a possibility that
certainly exists but he is not aware any major degradation where
the fish spawn.
Number 2344
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring if he has worked
with ADF&G to ensure that the habitat is being protected.
Number 2414
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that he is concerned about that and
he would be in favor of preserving the habitat because it would he
to his area's benefit as well to have adequate spawning grounds.
He stated that the Kenai River has a good restoration program.
Number 2510
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING restated his sponsor statement for those who
were not able to hear him the first time.
Number 2834
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN stated that there is a constitutional
priority for commercial fisheries through the limited entry system.
He stated that there is a constitutional mandate to manage on a
sustained yield basis. He stated that Article 8, Section 8, of the
constitution states that there can be discrimination against the
uses but not users of the resource. He stated that the Board of
Fisheries currently has the authority to limit out of state
residents' bag limits without any changes, statutes or amendments.
Number 2943
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the big issue is that the 5 percent
allocation is coming out of the statewide total salmon resource.
He stated that he heard testimony from the CooK Inlet driftnetters
that said, "If all they wanted was 5 percent of the fish in Cook
Inlet we'd be standing in line to get behind this proposal." He
stated that the argument is that the 5 percent allocation could
wipe out the entire allocation for the Cook Inlet commercial
fishermen. He stated that maybe there is a way to modify the bill.
Number 3204
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that during session the committee will
debate the pros and cons of the bill, the hearing today is just to
take testimony.
Number 3241
BOB MARTINSON, Chairman, Cordova District Fishermen United, (CDFU)
stated that CDFU strongly opposes HB 149. He stated that he has
lived in the Mat-Su valley for over ten years. There are more
than 200 limited entry permit holders and more than 2,000 crew
license holders residing in the Mat-Su valley. He stated that in
Anchorage, there are more than 1,200 permit holders and 5,500 crew
members. He stated that HB 149 is a rewrite of the F.I.S.H.
Initiative which was found unconstitutional on the grounds that
public opinion should not delegate control over a natural resource.
He stated that control over a resource involves careful study of
many variables being considered under scientific conditions. This
management is currently being done by ADF&G. He stated that the
bill is to satisfy the lodge owners and river boat guides so they
can have all the fish to support their high-ticket clients. He
stated that the 5 percent allocation is highly deceptive. He
stated that if HB 149 was law in 1996, 8.4 millon of any species of
salmon would go to the guiding industry. These sport businesses
are unrestricted, and they do not have to report their catches and
they are harming the habitat. He stated that the commercial sport
fishing industry is making a lot of money and they are influencing
politicians. He stated that the Northwest, Internal and Coastal
Alaska economies depend solely on the viability of the commercial
fishing industry. He asked if the government really wants to
ignore this fact just because the major population base has.
Number 3835
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN reiterated that it is the legislature that
delegates the responsibility to the Board of Fisheries. He stated
that it is ultimately the legislature's responsibility.
Number 4012
MR. MARTINSON referred to the certificate issued by the legislature
to CDFU, in 1989 to honor Prince William Sound in their 100 years
of commercial fishing and economic support to the community.
Number 4100
TOM NAMTVEDT, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he fishes in Prince
William Sound on the Copper River. He referred to Section
16.05.740 (b) and stated that it could be devastating to both Cook
Inlet and Copper River commercial salmon fisheries. He stated that
it could result in the allocation of most of the king, coho and
sockeye salmon to sport and personal use fishermen. He stated that
a large pink salmon run in Southeast Alaska and Kodiak would
guarantee a large harvest of the more desirable species by the
sport and personal use fisheries, with the 5 percent allocation in
effect.
Number 4252
MR. NAMTVEDT stated that Representative Kohring stated that the
bill is aimed at Cook Inlet but there is no wording in the bill
referring to Cook Inlet. He stated that he could be put out of
business. He stated that this is an example of vague legislation
that can hurt a lot of residents. He asked if more fish in combat
fishing areas is really what residents want.
TAPE 97-25, SIDE B
Number 0040
KEN SVETC (TAPE STARTED IN THE MIDDLE OF TESTIMONY) stated that the
commercial fishermen are not catching the king salmon, they are not
up the Deshka River, but they are up in Ship Creek. He questioned
how the fish could get up to Ship Creek and not be in the Deshka
River, and stated that the sport fishermen must be getting them.
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to statistics quoted by Mr. Svetc at
the beginning of his testimony and stated that he wanted to get his
figures correct and asked for the numbers.
MR. SVETC stated that he checked with ADF&G to make sure he was
figuring it right. He said "they take 33.5 percent of the total
harvest of silvers also, right now in the inlet and in the Kenai I
think they have done studies that it is over 80 percent."
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to the statistics that Mr. Svetc
quoted at the beginning of his testimony.
MR. SVETC stated that the streams are being overfished. The total
harvest of king salmon was 121,000 total harvest for a four year
average. He suggested that king salmon be available for residents
of Alaska only (spectators applauded). He stated that in Minnesota
they have a fishery restricted for residents only, therefore
limiting a species to residents should be constitutionally correct.
Number 0508
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he would have a hard time facing
the Alaskan lodge owners if nonresidents were not allowed to fish
for king salmon.
Number 0509
MR. SVETC stated that there are a lot more residents then lodge
owners.
Number 0654
WARREN OLSON stated that he is a lead plaintiff in the district
court on subsistence case before Judge Holland. He referred to the
Public Trust Doctrine which is about the ownership of the resource
for personal consumption. He stated that whatever is detrimental
to the quantity and quality of harvest for the residents can be
curtailed. He referred to a book called Putting the Public Trust
Doctrine to Work. It was compiled by 29 coastal U.S. states and is
for the enhancement, use, quality access and quantity of the
fisheries. He stated that the legislature has the responsibility
to enhance these resources. He stated that it is time to enhance
the tributaries to bring the returns up and increase access. He
stated commercial fishing comes after personal consumption. He
suggested the committee read an article by the Assistant Professor
of Natural Resources at the University of Alaska that illustrates
the legislatures responsibility to the Public Trust Doctrine.
Number 1322
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if his support of HB 149 was to allocate
more fish to the upper reaches of the river systems or if he was
advocating increasing access via hatcheries. He explained that HB
149 is an allocation issue bill of taking fish from one user group
and allocating them to another user group.
Number 1454
MR. OLSON stated that he believes there can be a better job of
putting fish in the tributaries. He stated that the Public Trust
Doctrine is the bottom line. He stated that it is the
responsibility of the legislature to enhance the access and that
can be achieved through a number of ways. He stated that HB 149
should apply to the entire state.
Number 1718
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that there is a publication by Greg Cook
and asked that he might brief the committee on the Public Trust
Doctrine.
Number 1920
DONALD BREADWATER, Subsistence Fishermen, stated that he and the
commercial fishermen are restricted and asked why no one is
restricting the guides. He stated that he can no longer go and get
the fish he needs for the season. He stated that he had two coho
salmon this year. He stated that the legislature is allowing
nonresidents to come up to rape Alaska's waters. He questioned if
the legislators are getting money from lobbyists because they are
"screwing over Alaskans."
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if he was proposing a constitutional
amendment to limit the sport fish guides, because it would take an
constitutional amendment to limit the guides.
Number 2239
MR. BREADWATER asked Representative Ogan if he wanted Alaskan
waters to end up like Oregon and Washington, where there are hardly
any fish.
Number 2247
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied absolutely not.
Number 2247
MR. BREADWATER asked what it will take because that is were the
fishery is headed. He stated that if a constitutional amendment is
what it will take to limit the number of sport guides on the river,
then that should be done.
Number 2330
RON WILSON, Sport Fisherman, stated he supports HB 149 because if
there aren't any fish up the river there will not be any in the
ocean. He stated that he lived in the Northwest and has watched
the resource decline. He stated that it is due to lack of
management. He stated that in Alaska there are restrictions but
they occur after the fact. He stated that he does not think HB 149
will impact the commercial fishermen as much as it will help the
sport fishermen. He thinks HB 149 will help both users because if
the fish are not going up the river then they will not return. He
stated that he would not like to see commercial fishermen out of
business, however he would like to see stocks in the river. He
stated that the sport fishing industry helps the Mat-Su Borough.
Number 2725
CLIFF JUDKINS, Subsistence Fisherman, stated that he has been
fishing the Susitna River System for 34 years. He stated that
every year he catches 50 to 60 salmon, mostly coho salmon. He
stated that the subsistence and commercial fishermen ought to have
some priority. He stated that recreational fishermen ought to take
what is left. He stated that he remembers when there were not any
guides or tourists, now that same area is so overcrowded with
tourists he will not fish there anymore. He stated that the
increase of guides has destroyed the fishery because it puts too
many people on the river. He stated that when there are more
buyers than the product, either the buyers have to eliminated or
the price has to be raised. He stated that if the price of a king
salmon for nonresident fishermen was $1000 then coolers of king
salmon would not be taken home (spectators applauded). He stated
that when he fished in Canada he could not take three Dolly Varden
out of Canada because of a treaty that allows only 1-day's limit of
fish be taken out of the country. He said "I am a subsistence
fisherman and I would like to keep fishing and it would be nice to
be able to cast your line out without 60 guys running across it and
you can't even tell them to get off of it because they don't even
speak the language."
Number 3054
MR. JUDKINS stated that he would like sport fishing to be deleted
off the bill as a definition for a consumptive user.
Number 3126
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he wanted to look into limiting the
number of fish that are taken out of state.
Number 3140
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if he was supportive of the rural
amendment on subsistence.
Number 3146
MR. JUDKINS replied that he is not in favor of changing the
constitution, although he does not know which would be more
favorable for himself.
Number 3212
PAGE HERRING, Northern District Setnetter, stated that she
participates in the closest commercial fishery to the Mat-Su
Borough. She stated that of the fish that are in the Northern
District area, sport fishermen take 98 percent of the kings, 50 to
60 percent of the coho salmon and 20 percent of the sockeye salmon.
She stated that if they only wanted 5 percent she would be happy to
give it to them. She stated that she could not fish from July 14
to July 25 and the season was closed August 4. She stated that it
was a justified closure due to the lack of coho salmon. She stated
that HB 149 would result in a total net ban for Cook Inlet. She
stated that she has a right to make a living.
MS. HERRING stated that the setnetters only have 110 permits which
are all held by residents. She stated that there is no limit on
the guides. She stated commercial fishermen are ostracized and
treated like second class citizens. She stated that the major
problem is the growth of the sport fishing industry and asked when
there is going to be a cap on the number of guides. She stated
that the restrictions on sport fishing are not enforced and
exemptions are constantly being given. She stated that habitat is
not taken into consideration. She explained that commercial
fishermen are restricted by time, gear and number of permits. She
stated that HB 149 would devastate her fishery and her ability to
support her family.
Number 3919
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the price of nonresident licenses
were increased as of last year.
Number 3937
MS. HERRING stated that she has lost fishing time due to sport fish
pressures. She stated that she has lost three quarters of her king
fishery and is only allowed to fish with one net, for a six hour
opener, once a year. She stated that the sport fishing industry
benefits from the restrictions on the commercial fishermen and
asked how the increase of the cost of the nonresident sportfish
licenses would help her. She stated that there needs to be a cap
on the guides.
Number 4011
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied that there can not be a cap on the
guides without a constitutional amendment.
Number 4012
MS. HERRING asked why was there able to be a cap on commercial
fishermen and not on guides. She stated that they need to be
limited somehow, all it takes to be a guide is a business license
and a boat.
Number 4058
LEVI GUSTAFSON, Northern District Commercial Fisherman, stated that
he is against HB 149. He stated that he has been hearing about the
economic benefit that sport fishing brings to Alaska and wanted to
point out that every permit holder in the commercial fishing
industry is a small business. If Cook Inlet is shut down to
commercial fishing, 1,500 small businesses will be out of business
which would seriously devastate the economy. He stated that he
does not understand why preference should be given to nonresidents.
He stated that he does not enjoy sport fishing anymore because of
the overcrowding. He stated that restrictions need to be placed on
nonresidents.
Number 4400
DON SHERWOOD, President of Alaska Boating Association, stated that
he is in support of HB 149. He stated that members noticed a lack
of fish due to commercial fishing. He stated that when the Kodiak
seiners were on strike there was an increase in the king salmon
catch. He stated that they are asking for a fair share of the
resource. He referred to possible solutions such as the to the
extension of roads to increase access to the streams. He stated
that this would not be possible because of the environmental
mandates that it would have to go through to be approved.
TAPE 97-26, SIDE A
Number 004
MR. SHERWOOD stated that he wants to bring a fair share of fish to
his family's table.
Number 0104
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Sherwood if he looked at the 1994
coded wire tagging study on the Kodiak area. Chairman Austerman
advised him to look at the study so he will be informed to the
facts. The study indicates what Cook Inlet king salmon are being
caught in the Kodiak area and that more Cook Inlet fish were caught
in Southeast Alaska in 1994 than in Kodiak. He referred to Mr.
Sherwood's comment of the increase of king salmon in Cook Inlet
during the Kodiak seine strike and asked him if he had read ADF&G
letter explaining how those fish migrate past Kodiak.
Number 0300
MR. SHERWOOD stated that he had not read the information.
Number 0320
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that Representative Kohring should make
that information available because the Cook Inlet salmon are long
past Kodiak before the commercial fishery has an opening whether or
not there is a strike.
Number 0347
MR. SHERWOOD asked if there was a chance that ADF&G could be wrong.
Number 0359
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Sherwood when he started catching all
his fish in the Deshka River.
Number 0459
MR. SHERWOOD replied that he started catching fish on May 12.
Number 0465
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that the first Kodiak opening is in June.
He asked how could Kodiak seiners be intercepting Cook Inlet's fish
when the fish are already in the river.
Number 0505
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said, "Its a fact that ADF&G, the wire coded
tagging project on the Deshka has failed and they have admitted
that in testimony last year. I think it was in this committee if I
recall correctly, so we really do not know and that is the
problem."
Number 0535
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that he has a hard time understanding
how Representative Kohring and others can point the finger at
Kodiak as intercepting the fish, when the fish have already gone by
before there is a commercial opening. He stated that without the
biological information and facts about what is going on, to just
point fingers is not going to help the situation at all. He stated
that if one is going to say there is an interception going on, it
needs to be backed up with facts.
Number 0616
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he was confused because Mr.
Sherwood stated that he supported the bill but then said that the
commercial fleet really was not the problem in Cook Inlet. He
stated that he was not clear on what Mr. Sherwood felt was in the
bill that would help is organization. Representative Kubina stated
that he wants to make sure the rivers are healthy and that people
can catch fish, but this bill is a divisive bill. Representative
Kubina asked Mr. Sherwood if his association would support the
restrictions on nonresidents, such as bag limits and if his
association has a stand on ADF&G's budget.
Number 0638
MR. SHERWOOD replied that the association has not discussed
restrictions on nonresidents but they have talked about ADF&G's
budget. He stated that several members feel that they are
overbudgeted and some do not. He stated that the reasons being
that members are unhappy about what is occurring in the streams for
the past 10 years.
Number 0655
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if he would like more access to the
river.
MR. SHERWOOD stated that he would but the chances of that occurring
are slim.
Number 0800
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he had not heard any comments on the
lack of research. He stated that unless there is some decent
research being done, we will never know what is happening to our
fisheries.
Number 0853
KORY BLAKE, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he has been a
commercial fisherman since 1970 and he strongly opposes HB 149. He
stated that the 5 percent allocation is misleading as it does not
allocate equally by species or area of return. He stated that in
1996, the 5 percent allocation would have given 8.5 millon fish to
the sport and personal use fisheries, which would have stopped all
commercial fishing in Cook Inlet and the Copper River waters,
without reaching the 5 percent goal. He stated that Representative
Kohring ignores that fact that commercial fishing is the second
largest revenue producing industry in Alaska and the state's
largest employer. He stated that it is unfair to restrict other
areas in the state when the problem lies in the Upper Susitna River
Drainage. He stated that the bill was drafted for lodge owners and
sport guides who cater to the nonresident sport fishermen. He
stated that all allocation issues should be resolved by the Board
of Fisheries who get their facts from ADF&G.
Number 1112
MR. BLAKE stated that there needs to be more funds going into
research. He stated that there is a Big Lake hatchery that was
shut down. He stated that facility could be put back into use to
take stocks from one river system and be put back into the streams.
He stated that the commercial fishermen financially support the
hatcheries and he questioned where the sport fishermen support was.
Number 1236
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if he would support limits on
nonresidents.
Number 1313
MR. BLAKE replied that he would.
Number 1450
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that in regards to subsistence there is
not support in the legislature to get a rural priority, however the
way to resolve it is to give an Alaskan priority. So that the
allocation would go to Alaskans first.
Number 1521
MR. BLAKE stated that he does think there should be a subsistence
priority in rural areas.
Number 1603
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he did not want it to go on the
record that there was not a way for the legislature to support a
rural subsistence priority.
Number 1642
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he wanted to stay off the
subsistence issue.
Number 1650
BILL PACE, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he is opposed to HB
149. He stated that he fishes out of Cordova but his home is in
the Mat-Su Borough. He stated that HB 149 is bad for the fisheries
and bad for the state of Alaska. He stated that there are
sufficient stocks for all users as long as no one is greedy and
upsets the balance. He asked how research was going to be funded
without the taxes being paid every year by the commercial
fishermen. He stated that the small amount of money from the sport
fish license sales will not support fisheries management on the
scale needed to keep the runs healthy. Commercial fishermen pay a
3 percent tax to support ADF&G. He stated that without the
commercial fishing industry the research and management efforts
will not have the financial backing or the data base that the
commercial fishing industry supplies. He stated that no amount of
tourism, sport fishing or subsistence, can replace commercial
fishing in the state's economic base. He stated that diminishing
commercial fisheries will result in diminishing all fisheries. He
stated that to demand more programs that require more research and
management efforts while simultaneously reducing the funding
available does not make sense. He stated that fisheries are
collapsing on a world wide level while Alaska's fisheries are
relatively healthy due to the commercial fishing industry's support
to ADF&G for research.
Number 2012
EMMETT HEIDEMANN, Sport Guide, stated that he does some commercial
fishing but he does not have a salmon permit. He stated that he is
opposed to HB 149. He stated that most of the 28,000 people that
signed the petition for the F.I.S.H. Initiative, received $1 for
their signature. He stated that the biggest problem with the
resources is lack of knowledge. He stated that the only school
system that teaches anything about fishing is in Kodiak. He stated
that everybody has to be on the same plane through education so
intelligent decisions about the resource can be made. He stated
that he has heard statements from tourists halibut fishing that the
reason they did not catch any halibut was because the commercial
fishermen were out there with their nets halibut fishing. He
stated that he is against tourists using Alaska's resource for
profit and it should be stopped. He stated that when tourists are
caught breaking the law, all they receive is a slap on the wrist.
He stated that all the double axle trailers on the Kenai are
carrying freezers and boxes in order make their living of selling
Alaskan salmon in the Lower 48. He asked why there isn't any
enforcement of the laws. He indicated that Alaska needs to start
looking out for Alaskans and HB 149 is not for Alaskans.
Number 3040
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN agreed that offenders are just getting their
wrist slapped. He stated the legislature did increase the number
of trooper positions but it is still very much understaffed.
Number 3241
EUGENE SVETC, Sport and Commercial Fisherman, stated that he is
strongly opposed to HB 149. He stated that the sport fishing
percentage of king salmon taken in Cook Inlet over the last four
years is 84.6 percent on average. He stated that of that
percentage, 604 of the kings were caught by 580 boats. He stated
that every fish that the commercial fishermen sell are recorded.
He stated that there is no regulation or record of sport fishing.
A sport fisherman can catch over his limit and not be caught
because there is really no regulation of his catch. He stated that
the 84.6 percent of king salmon equates to 102,000 king salmon out
of the 120,000 king salmon that are available. He stated that 5
percent would increase the sport fisherman's catch to 125,000 king
salmon, which is over the total number of kings harvested in Cook
Inlet. He stated that there should be a law passed allocating king
salmon for residents only.
Number 3709
MR. SVETC stated that commercial fishermen pay 3 percent of their
gross income to the state. The lodge owners, guides and charter
boat operators pay nothing to the state. He proposed that there be
a 3 percent tax on their gross income for research. He stated that
it appears that the driftnetters are the scapegoat for all of the
problems on the river. He stated that the only way a king salmon
could get from Kodiak to Cook Inlet from the time the seiners went
on strike to when the sport fishermen noticed the increase of king
salmon is with an airline ticket.
Number 3948
MR. SVETC stated that there are too many people fishing on the
Deshka and Susitna River, which in result is hurting the spawning
grounds. He suggested that power boats be eliminated in all the
rivers. He stated that in Homer there are fish put into an area
and he suggested that be done in Cook Inlet. He stated that more
roads will only bring more tourists creating more of a problem. He
suggested limiting the nonresident sport fishing licenses to stop
the illegal processing and sale of Alaskan salmon.
Number 4400
BRUCE KNOWLES, Sport Fisherman and Guide, stated that he supports
HB 149.
NO RECORDING WAS DONE ON TAPE 97-26, SIDE B. THE BEGINNING OF MR.
KNOWLES TESTIMONY WAS NOT RECORDED DUE TO TAPE CHANGE.
TAPE 97-27, SIDE A
Number 0004
MR. KNOWLES stated that the bill states that the 5 percent is not
mandatory. He stated that there is a problem with salmon
allocation. He stated that the streams are not meeting their
escapement goals. He stated that commercial fishermen have no data
on where the fish are going that they are intercepting. He stated
that commercial fishermen feel that because of their limited entry
permits they have the right to make a living and are guaranteed the
right to take salmon. He stated that a limited entry permit does
not authorize that. He stated that there were no tagged king
salmon from Upper Cook Inlet because there was not a tagging
program in the early 1990's.
Number 0410
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that ADF&G report indicated there are
Cook Inlet tagged fish.
MR. KNOWLES stated that the tagging was not from Upper Cook Inlet.
He indicated that is where the intercepts are occurring. He stated
that the targeted fisheries are killing the native stocks. He
stated that adding fish stocks to the waters creates more
commercial fishing and adds to the demise of the native stocks.
Number 0630
MR. KNOWLES stated that sport fishermen have voluntarily restricted
themselves to the number of king salmon they are allowed to take.
He stated that they went to the Board of Fisheries and asked for a
5 fish limit with a 2 fish limit on the Kenai River. He stated
that the average person fishing in Alaska takes 26.2 fish. He
stated that nobody knows how many fish are taken out by nonresident
fishermen. He stated that we do not know how many fish are taken
out by nonresident commercial fishing crews. He stated that there
is no equity in the current management because commercial fishermen
fishing in closed waters just receive a slap on the wrist. He
stated that there needs to be more wildlife protection and a sound
management program. He stated that salmon should be protected
along their entire migratory route.
Number 1100
MR. KNOWLES stated that there are nine proposals before the Board
of Fisheries to limit the number of fishing guides in Alaska. He
stated that he does not support a limited entry process because he
does not want another elitist group formed. He stated that the
streams are in good shape. He said, "I managed the lower 13 miles
of the Deshka for the borough during the summer." He stated that
he had patrolled the Deshka river three times a week saw very
little habitat degradation. He stated that there are areas at the
mouth of the River that have degradation but there is no
degradation at the salmon spawning areas.
Number 1409
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he wanted to note that Mr.
Knowles started his testimony by stating that he wanted to make
sure that personal, sport and subsistence fishermen were entitled
to the resource and that Mr. Knowles stated that he wanted to
create an entitlement.
Number 1427
MR. KNOWLES replied that is correct. He stated the it is the right
of Alaskans to be able to feed their families. He stated that the
constitution states that the resources be shared. He stated that
on Fish Creek, personal use dipnetters were not allowed to fish for
salmon due to low returns while commercial fishermen were allowed
to fish, which he felt was not right.
Number 1524
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to Mr. Knowles' statement that low
water marks and a freeze would damage the resource and he asked how
HB 149 would protect that from happening.
Number 1533
MR. KNOWLES stated that if there was enough salmon returning to
meet the biological escapement goals routinely then a whole stream
will not be lost during a freeze. He stated that if a small
percentage of fish return the majority of them will be lost during
a freeze.
Number 1625
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to Mr. Knowles' statement that the
fish should be protected along their entire migratory route and
asked if he thought that was a good management program even though
it may result in an extreme overabundance in certain areas.
Number 1653
MR. KNOWLES replied, "Certainly." He stated that there is no
proven theory on overabundance. He stated that it is a hyped up
theory that has no validity. He stated that management styles need
to be changed from managing from the oceans in to managing from the
rivers out.
Number 1817
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked that if the biologists were correct in
stating that it is more dangerous to have more fish in the river
then having not enough, would Mr. Knowles rather jeopardize fish in
100 creeks in order to get fish into one.
Number 1833
MR. KNOWLES stated that if there was proof that an overabundance is
detrimental to the resource he would believe it, but right now it
is just a hypothetical theory.
Number 1900
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he appreciated Mr. Knowles'
support for more data and asked that he talk to his friends on the
House Finance Standing Committee to suggest more funding be
allocated for research.
Number 1907
MR. KNOWLES referred to an article in the Alaska Fisherman's
Journal that was written by him, in which he threatened to enact
the Endangered Species Act for Knik Arm, and stated that he is
serious. He stated that he was asked by the valley legislators to
hold off on that in order to allow something to be accomplished.
He stated that he intends to enact the Endangered Species Act if HB
149 does not pass.
Number 1935
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that Mr. Knowles has the right to use
the court system, however Mr. Knowles will have to suffer the
consequences of that court decision.
Number 1953
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to Mr. Knowles' statement that the
average sport fishermen gets 26.2 fish and asked if that is for all
the sport fishing permits that are issued.
Number 1957
MR. KNOWLES replied 26.2 fish is the average number given in one of
the studies by ADF&G of the average number of fish kept.
Number 2019
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that some people could be keeping 500
fish and others could be keeping 1 fish.
Number 2027
MR. KNOWLES stated that in 1989 he came across some Swedish
tourists salting down king salmon who claimed to have 82 king
salmon. He stated that he could not get anyone from ADF&G to go
and intervene. He stated that there is a problem with sport and
commercial fishermen. He stated that SB 40 coupled with HB 149
will pay for the studies that have to be done.
Number 2209
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if he was supportive of restricting the
number of guides and stricter bag limits.
Number 2240
Mr. KNOWLES stated that he would be supportive of restricting the
number of guides and stated that 65 percent of his clients are
Alaskan. He stated that this past summer he only had nine out of
state customers.
Number 2257
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked how many king salmon a nonresident
fishermen can take.
Number 2303
MR. KNOWLES replied 5 king salmon.
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that the number of king salmon that
can be taken is the same for a resident and as it is for a
nonresident.
Number 2357
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Knowles if he is aware of the extra
million dollars that was allocated for studies in Upper Cook Inlet
this year.
Number 2407
MR. KNOWLES replied that they need $2 million more. He stated that
other species of fish are lost when the salmon runs start to
diminish.
Number 2524
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the funds from the king salmon
stamp go into Southeast Alaska and he stated that he has been
trying to get some of that money up in this area. He stated that
in Bristol Bay the fishing is done from the river out. There are
zones around the river which is different from the management of
Cook Inlet.
Number 2611
MR. KNOWLES stated that there are two distinct management concepts.
In Bristol Bay they do not allow commercial fishing in a lot of
areas until there is the escapement in the streams. He stated that
he has heard reports that say that anywhere from 85 to 90 percent
of coho salmon that head up Cook Inlet are headed for the Northern
District. He stated that they catch anywhere from 250,000 to
700,000 coho salmon a year. He stated that he has submitted a
proposal to the Board of Fisheries that will established a 1 mile
sanctuary around the mouth of all streams, in order to protect the
fish once they are headed into the streams. He stated that he
submitted another proposal that states when an emergency order is
issued for extra commercial fishing time, they must reduce their
fishing gear by one-half until all escapement goals are met. He
stated that sport fishermen would have to reduce their harvest of
red salmon by one-half.
Number 2737
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he hopes to continue to work with
him on this issue. He stated that there would not be all these
hearings on the bill if the committee were not interested in
resolving the issue.
MR. KNOWLES replied that he sincerely hoped so and that it was not
just posturing.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he is not here just to posture
issues and he is not the one making statements to newspapers
posturing issues. He stated that he is here to get the facts in
order to resolve the issues. He stated that he will continue to
work on it but he does not feel that everything in HB 149 is
correct. He stated that he feels that it is possible to work
towards something that is workable. He stated that issues of
management and how to get the correct management and research is
one direction that he will be addressing.
Number 2912
MR. KNOWLES stated that this past summer the commercial fish
division authorized 12 days of uninterrupted fishing in Central
Cook Inlet while personal use fishing was cut off. He stated that
this is mismanagement.
Number 2957
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA explained that it is more complicated than
that. He stated that sport fishermen in Prince William Sound were
angry because they were not getting enough coho salmon and blamed
the cause on the commercial fishing that was occurring nearby. The
commercial fishermen weren't fishing coho salmon, they were fishing
for chum and pink salmon. The sport fishermen automatically
assumed that the commercial fishermen were taking all the coho
salmon. He stated that the processors count the fish and records
indicate that very few coho salmon were being caught as bycatch.
He stated that ADF&G is trying to manage the fishery according to
what they think is best for the resource. He stated that just
because commercial fishing is occurring it does not mean that they
are taking fish away from the rivers.
Number 3113
MR. KNOWLES replied he questions ADF&G's sincerity because they do
not respond immediately to problems when he calls.
Number 3244
ELLA RING stated that she fishes in the Northern District and has
seen a decline in the management of the area since 1989. She
stated that she is making less then $5,000 a year. She stated that
ADF&G is giving the East Side setnetters priority and are not
allowing the fish to get up to her area. She stated that she is in
favor of HB 56 regarding the buy back of limited entry permits.
She stated that she is tired of fighting this issue.
Number 3540
WILLIAM JARVIS, Sport Fisherman, stated that he is in support of HB
149. He stated that the Deshka River has been closed for the past
four years to king salmon fishing, with the exception of this year.
He stated that HB 149 will help manage all of the rivers and get
fish back into the rivers. He stated that something needs to be
done, otherwise there will not be a resource. He suggested limits
on sport fishing and commercial fishing so that the fish will come
back into the rivers.
Number 3716
RAINY BELL, Northern District Setnetter, she stated that she is a
third generation fisherman and she fishes with her mother and
grand-mother. She stated that more than 80 percent of the permits
in the Northern District are held by residents. She asked who is
going to pay for the implementation of the bill. She asked why
should her livelihood be denied for somebody else's sport fish
pleasure. She stated that she fishes to put herself through
college. She stated that she does not consider herself an elitist
and does not think HB 149 will solve the problems. She stated that
overcrowding on the streams, destruction of habitat and too many
nonresident anglers are the problem. She stated that HB 149 will
take away a lot of jobs in the state. She stated that an influx of
salmon in the rivers destroys everything as too many fish in a
river is worse than too few.
Number 4229
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA apologized for having to leave early to catch
a flight home. He thanked everybody for testifying. He said, "It
was actually encouraging for me to know that there are so many
people in Representative Kohring's and Representative Ogan's
district that actually think more like I think than I thought there
were." He stated that he will commit himself to make sure that
there is a healthy fishery for everyone.
Number 4243
JIM HERMAN, Setnetter, stated he did not know where Chairman
Austerman was from but he noticed that his "hackles rose" every
time Kodiak was mentioned. He stated that 15 years ago commercial
fishermen where catching 500,000 red salmon in Kodiak. He stated
that when the salmon started coming to Kodiak in large numbers,
ADF&G open the season for two 48-hour-periods a week and the catch
increased to 5.5 million salmon. He stated that ADF&G has opened
Cook Inlet for nine days to the drifters but the setnetters were
only allowed to fish two tides a week. He stated that this year
the East Side was opened for 12 days and he felt that ADF&G could
do better.
Number 4521
MR. HERMAN stated that catch and release of king salmon is a lot of
waste. He stated that ADF&G tracked the catch and release kings
and recorded a 10 percent loss. He stated that there is 87 percent
loss of the catch and release coho salmon. He stated that ADF&G
could do a better job of managing the fishery.
Number 4741
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he is from Kodiak and he does get
upset when reference is made to the Kodiak Seiners strike and the
return of kings to Cook Inlet without any proof or substantiation.
TAPE 97-27, SIDE B
Number 0001
Number 0010
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that intercepting salmon has gone ever
since salmon have been migrating. He stated that he gets upset
with the false correlation that the king salmon only returned to
the Deshka River because the Kodiak seiners were on strike. He
stated that the king salmon reach that river long before there is
a seine opening in Kodiak. He stated that he does not dispute the
inception of red salmon.
Number 0155
NOEL WOODS stated that he hoped this bill will address where the
fish are in the streams and rivers. He stated that he was
disappointed when the Board of Fisheries decided to no longer
continue the genetic testing program that identified where the fish
spawn. He stated that it is most important to know that there is
escapement of salmon for spawning in the streams. He stated that
he would like to see an emphasis on biological management. He
stated that this year personal use fishing in Upper Cook Inlet was
closed to setnetters. He stated that ADF&G needs to be questioned
on their use of the scientific information that is available on
identifying the escapement goals and identifying the timing and the
location of the runs returning to the various streams.
Number 0723
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he has questioned ADF&G and they
have admitted that they do not have as much data as they need for
Upper Cook Inlet. He stated that perhaps with additional funding
this will change.
Number 0740
MR. WOODS stated that since the commercial and sport fishermen
outnumber personal use fishermen in representation, accurate
research is the only way resolve some of the questions.
Number 0831
ROBERT HALL, Representative, Houston Chamber of Commerce, stated
that he served as chairman of the F.I.S.H. Initiative. He stated
that there is a problem in the Northern District. He stated that
in 1983 there were around 1,500 fish in a particular fishing
stream. He stated that in the last couple of years there have been
about 130 fish. He stated that streams in Cottonwood, Wasilla, Jim
Creek and Fish Creek are suffering severe low returns. He stated
that the personal use fisheries are suffering. He stated that it
is a complex issue and it is not fair to just point a finger at the
commercial fishermen. He stated that the biggest problem is that
the Kenai River has increased it runs, causing the intercept from
the East Side setnetters to increase. He stated that the state
management system is broken. The allocation process is overwhelmed
and is only allowed to make incremental changes. He stated that
the Cook Inlet Salmon Management Plan requires that the harvest of
silvers be limited. He stated that there are many days in August
when the Northern District Setnetters harvest more coho salmon then
they do red salmon. He stated that the Board of Fisheries approved
the commercial harvest on hatchery fish in front of Fish Creek but
they are intercepting the native stocks as well. He stated that
this decision was a biologically unsound decision and it was a
political decision. It is decisions like this that ignite this
bill. He stated that he believes that commercial fishermen feel
they own the fish. He stated that the rest of Alaskans feel that
the fish belong to everyone and this is what causes the conflict.
He stated that the commercial fishermen can't do anything about
what is happening with fish prices and the effect of farmed fish,
but they can do something about the sport fishermen.
Number 1600
MR. HALL stated that the resident and nonresident issue is a smoke
screen. He said, "We all know that the number of fish caught by
outside residents isn't that high." He asked how many commercial
fishermen would support a law that provided a priority for Alaskans
to feed their families. He stated that Governor Knowles stated
that he would put general fund money into the sport fish and game
budget, however this has not happened. He stated that it is true
that there is an increase in the population of the Mat-Su Borough
and there has not been an increase in the allocation of fish. He
stated that there is a problem and the legislature needs to tell
the Board of Fisheries that they have to solve it. He stated that
there are residents who would like to feed their families and their
are guides who would like to make some money.
Number 1748
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that ADF&G has stated that when there is
a huge run on the Kenai River, Upper Cook Inlet is somewhat managed
by default, because of the intense fishing occurring on the lower
part of the Inlet.
Number 1915
DAVE RING, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he has been a
commercial fishermen for 46 years and there is a split between
sport and commercial fishermen. He stated that many of the Natives
where cut off at Point Woronzof. He stated that there was no
biological reason for this to occur. He stated that every fishery
has a claim to the resource. He stated that this year if
commercial fishing was closed on the Northern District only 3
percent more fish would be gained. He stated that there are
problems in how the fish are managed. There are some streams up by
the Matanuska that have been managed almost to extinction. He
suggested that the committee read an article in the Reader's Digest
on fisheries management. He stated that if a lot of fish return to
a river and die they put a lot of nitrogen back into the stream.
Nitrogen rich streams put out double the smolt. He stated that he
does not believe there is saturation in the river to the point of
endangerment. He stated that it is a management scare used to
justify how they manage other districts.
Number 2409
MR. RING stated that he would like to intercept the fish by Point
MacKenzie rather then fish for dark fish in Fish Creek. He stated
that there needs to be fish management that will involve the
Northern District and the sport fishermen. He stressed management
for the little streams. He stated that the Big Susitna used to
produce one-third of the fish in the entire inlet.
Number 3000
LLOYD MONTGOMERY, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he is opposed
to HB 149. He asked Representative Kohring what his definition is
of fishing in front of the Kenai River. He asked, "When they take
a net do to they completely close off the Kenai River so that a
fish can't go by."
Number 3137
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that he did not know.
Number 3139
MR. MONTGOMERY stated that it is impossible to close off the Copper
River with a net that is 900 feet long and 28 to 30 feet deep. He
stated that in the Mat-Su valley and Kenai River, it is being said
that commercial fishermen have nets wide and deep enough to close
off the entire river. He stated that it is not true or possible
for commercial fishermen to close off the River with their nets.
Number 3339
MR. MONTGOMERY stated that HB 149 is about guaranteeing a certain
group 5 percent of the fish so they can be guaranteed millionaires.
He stated that bill is not about fish or taking care of the
habitat, it is about money.
Number 3550
JUNE BURKHART stated that she is a 30 year resident of Alaska and
has lived in Willow for the past 10 years. She stated that she
supports Representative Kohring's efforts with HB 149. She stated
that at least he is trying to get something done about the problem
in the Northern area of Cook Inlet. She stated that she is not
opposed to commercial fishing. She stated that they have a right
to make a living in Alaska just as resident guides do. She stated
that she would like the three groups to come together and find a
solution.
Number 3920
JERRY MCCUNE, President, Cordova District Fishermen United, stated
that he agreed with Ms. Burkhart in that everyone should work
together. He stated that both sport and commercial fishermen have
worked together on a lot of projects. He stated that his objection
to the bill is that the 5 percent allocation is based on the
statewide number of fish which is about 150 to 160 millon fish. He
stated that the 5 percent would equal 8.5 million fish which would
be caught in red and king salmon, not the pink salmon which are
counting for 80 million of the state wide harvest. He stated that
sport fishermen do not target pink salmon. He suggested that all
groups work together to get better research and find out what is
wrong with the streams.
Number 4150
DAN TUCKER, Charter Guide, stated that he is a member of the Mat-Su
Mayor's Committee of Fisheries, Mat-Su Fisheries Advisory
Committee, Mat-Su Professional Guides Association and an advisor to
Representative Masek. He stated that he is in support of HB 149.
He stated that the present management level and funding level is
not acceptable because the results are not acceptable. He stated
that there are population pressures on Cook Inlet salmon that need
to be recognized. He stated that more roads would not solve the
problem unless there are more fish in the rivers. He stated that
if stocks are added to the rivers the commercial fishing intercept
will be increased. He stated that there is no reason to reduce the
number of commercial fishing permits in the rivers because it is
necessary for the excess fish harvest. He stated in regards to
limiting the number of sport fish guides in Cook Inlet they provide
access to the fish and there is no reason to create a new elitist
fishery. He stated that his economic contribution as a sport fish
guide has decreased because of the decrease in the number of
salmon. He stated that he does not believe sport fishermen should
be taxed because they are not selling fish, they are selling the
opportunity for people to catch fish.
Number 4728
STACIE STIGAR, Representative, Greater Wasilla Chamber of Commerce,
stated that she is here to testify in support of HB 149. She
stated that she would like the committee to consider Resolution
9704, which is a resolution in support of SB 40.
TAPE 97-28, SIDE A
Number 0001
MS. STIGAR stated that too much of Alaska's fisheries management is
being driven by allocation battles instead of by sound science and
pertinent information. She stated that there needs to be discreet
salmon stock assessment that will allow the Board of Fisheries to
get research on stocks and fisheries; the areas that they need the
most information in.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked how many people is she representing.
Number 0047
MS. STIGAR stated that she is representing 315 businesses.
Number 0057
DAVID HARRISON asked the committee if they believed that Alaska
should get the fish first. He asked if the committee has read the
state's constitution. He stated that the fish stocks are almost
depleted. He stated that he has a salmon hatchery and has received
threats from ADF&G that they will break his equipment. He stated
that his hatchery is not polluted unlike the state hatcheries. He
stated that the destruction of the resource does not only come from
overfishing but from overdevelopment. He stated that it is an
issue of the health of the resource. He stated that the
legislature is in violation of the constitution, Article 12,
Section 12, because the fish belong to the Natives of Alaska and
not to the state. He stated that the state manages on a maximum
harvest and not on a sustained yield basis, as the constitution
states. He stated that the government is not doing what they are
supposed to be doing. He stated that people who like to hunt or
fish for sport are sick people and should be psychiatrically
evaluated. He stated that the resource should be for the people of
the communities.
Number 0716
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that Article 12, Section 12 pertaining
specifically to the areas of Annette Island and Metlakatla.
Number 0726
MR. HARRISON stated that he was wrong and told Representative Ogan
to look at the genocide act because this is causing conditions of
life that are calculated to bring about the physical destruction of
the group.
Number 0845
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN thanked everyone for coming he stated that other
hearings are going to be held in the future. He stated that he
will kill this bill in its present form and not move it out of the
committee but he is more than willing to work to have a resolution
to the problem.
Number 0951
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING thanked everybody for coming.
Number 1004
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that there is a difference in opinion
between those who harvest fish for commercial purposes and those
who live in the Mat-Su valley. He stated that he will work with
the committee on the problem.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1014
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN adjourned the House Special Committee on
Fisheries at 5:21 p.m.
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