Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/07/1997 05:01 PM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES
April 7, 1997
5:01 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman
Representative Ivan Ivan, Vice Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan
Representative Mark Hodgins
Representative Gene Kubina
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS ON THE GOVERNOR'S APPOINTMENTS TO:
Board of Fisheries
Larry J. Engel
Robert Dersham
- CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
No previous action to record
WITNESS REGISTER
LARRY ENGEL, Appointee
Alaska Board of Fisheries
P.O. Box 197
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 745-4132
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified regarding his appointment to the
Board of Fisheries.
ED DERSHAM, Appointee
Alaska Board of Fisheries
P.O. Box 537
Anchor Point, Homer 99556
Telephone: (907) 235-5555
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified regarding his appointment to the
Board of Fisheries.
DALE BONDURANT
HC 1 Box 1197
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-0818
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of both appointees for
confirmation.
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 208
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2689
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of Ed Dersham's
appointment to the Board of Fisheries.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-16, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on
Fisheries meeting to order at 5:01 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Austerman, Ivan, Ogan and
Hodgins. Representative Kubina arrived at 5:10 p.m.
CONFIRMATION HEARING: LARRY ENGEL, BOARD OF FISHERIES
Number 029
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN announced the committee would hear confirmation
hearings on two appointees to the Board of Fisheries, Mr. Larry
Engel and Mr. Ed Dersham.
Number 098
LARRY ENGEL, Appointee, Alaska Board of Fisheries, testified via
teleconference from Matsu, stated that he was born and raised in
Washington. He was a crew member in his families commercial
fishing business. He has lived in Alaska since 1958. He stated
that in 1958, he was stationed in the Navy, in Kodiak and had his
first involvement with the Territorial Department of Fisheries, as
the base wildlife liaison. In 1960 he started to work for the
Department of Fish and Game until 1992 when he retired. After that
he worked part time via a professional business agreement with the
borough on fisheries matters in the Matsu valley. He stated he was
appointed to the Board of Fisheries in 1994 by Governor Hickel, and
served his three year term as chairman of the Board of Fisheries.
Number 259
MR. ENGEL stated his reason for wanting to serve on the Board of
Fisheries is because the fisheries has been a part of his life for
over 30 years. It has been good to him, and he has the time now to
give back, in a voluntary capacity, what he has received from the
fisheries. He believes that he has the skills, ability, interest,
desire and knowledge, to serve intelligently on the Board of
Fisheries and make the difficult, but reasoned unbiased decisions.
He felt that his record reflects that he has done this over the
past three years. He stated that he has probably made decisions on
over 1,000 fisheries proposals during the three years and has spent
more than 200 days in session. He stated that he has traveled
throughout the state, to the Yukon River and the Kuskokwim River to
become familiar with the commercial and subsistence fisheries, to
Bristol Bay during the peak of their fishery and made contacts with
at least a half of dozen fish processing owners and plants. He
stated that he has been to the Copper River to become familiar with
the personal use fisheries, has made numerous trips to the Kenai
Peninsula to observe that fishery and to the Alaska Peninsula, to
places like King Cove, Sand Point, False Pass to discuss fisheries
issues with the residents. He stated that these are examples of
his desire to do a good job.
Number 459
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS asked how he would balance the
commercial fishing verses the sport fishing on the Kenai Peninsula,
Cook Inlet.
Number 487
MR. ENGEL replied that he doesn't know that he could balance them
but he does know how he deals with those issues, in a reasoned and
fair manner, to make allocation decisions, which are the hard
decisions to make. He stated that conservation decisions are very
easy to make if you have sufficient information to make those
judgements. He stated that he thinks Representative Hodgins is
talking about allocation which is an issue in the fisheries
business that evolves through time, there are changes, different
gear types and other users such as subsistence. He stated that to
deal fairly and realize that times change, is what he attempts to
do. By listening to the concerns of the various user groups in the
Cook Inlet areas, as well as else where in the state and to take
those concerns very seriously and then try to deal fairly in that
regulatory process with those concerns.
Number 514
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked how long he has been on the Board of
Fisheries.
Number 585
MR. ENGEL replied that he has served one term, he was appointed in
February 1994, by Governor Hickel.
Number 602
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN noted for the record that Representative Kubina
was present.
Number 602
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN stated that the trawlers in the Bering
Sea routinely have the bar coded tags taken off the King Salmon on
the by-catch, but nothing is being done with those to put them
together in any kind of comprehensive study with the by-catches and
the origin of the by-catch. He asked if his appointment was
confirmed, would he be willing to take a look at the information to
see if it could be made available to get a better handle on
possible impact on some of the King Salmon fisheries in Cook Inlet.
Number 661
MR. ENGEL responded that the answer is yes. He stated that he
would extend it even further than just Cook Inlet. There are some
genuine concerns with the by-catch of King Salmon in the Bering Sea
relative to places like the Yukon River and Kuskokwim River, big
King Salmon producers. He stated that we are taking certain steps
in that regard and that the management of those Bering Sea
Fisheries fall under the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council
and anything outside the three-mile limit of the state, fall for
the most part, in their jurisdiction. He stated that the Board of
Fisheries has recently met with the North Pacific Management
Council and the Board of Fisheries has developed a committee of
Board of Fisheries members to meet with three members from the
council to look at issues, such as the King Salmon by-catch. There
are a number of issues that we have mutual dealings with and
concerns with. It is very healthy that we are working together and
sharing information and analyzing the results. He stated that he
is on the Board of Fisheries side of that committee that works with
the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council.
Number 758
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if Mr. Engel was aware that the
information was being collected but not being utilized.
Number 467
MR. ENGEL replied that he is aware of it and it is a real sore spot
with him. He stated that he has attended a number of North Pacific
Fisheries Council meetings as an observer and at times as a
representative of the Board of Fisheries. He stated that the Board
of Fisheries has sent a resolution of concern to the North Pacific
Fisheries Council regarding the salmon by-catch. He stated that
chum salmon is also a by-catch in the Bering Sea.
Number 790
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if his understanding was correct that the
Board of Fisheries did nothing about the possible commercial
exploitation of sport caught fish by out of state residents with
R/V's.
Number 815
MR. ENGEL replied that it is partially correct. In the Board of
Fisheries meeting in Ketchikan, a month ago, they did develop a
seasonal bag limit for non-residents only. He stated that the
Board had the same opportunity to do that for the Sockeye Salmon in
the Kenai Peninsula and the board deferred action on that until
next year, when it can be looked at in a more comprehensive manner
for the entire state.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN noted for the record that Representative Gail
Phillips joined the committee.
Number 895
REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA stated that he witnessed Mr. Engel
conducting the Board of Fisheries meetings in Cordova and thought
he did a very good job. His constituents were pleased and felt
that they were heard. He stated that the board spent hours and
hours allowing the public to have the input. He stated that there
was some controversy on where that meeting should be and the
chairman made the decision to have a day of hearings in Fairbanks,
a day in Glennallen and then had the full board meeting in Cordova.
He stated that over all in his district, on all sides of the issue,
Mr. Engel has been viewed very positively.
Number 997
REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN stated that in lower Kuskokwim, Bristol
Bay, there is always an argument with False Pass on the
interception of chums. He asked if he has had to make decisions on
the issue.
Number 1041
MR. ENGEL replied that this is probably one of the most complex and
difficult issues facing the Board of Fisheries which is the
interception of salmon in False Pass, the South Peninsula area and
how that interception impacts other areas in Western Alaska. He
stated that since he has been on the board he has taken many steps
to try and reduce that interception. He stated that formally the
people in the False Pass area fished during the entire month of
June and July, the season ending in the fall, currently, they can
only fish two weeks. The board has taken steps to balance out the
needs of those people out there because their livelihood is almost
totally dependent on the fishery wildlife resources as there are
not many other opportunities for income. He stated that
unfortunately there is not a great deal of information to make the
types of decisions that we would like to make out there. He stated
that it is the Board of Fisheries number one research demand or
request, to the Department of Fish and Game, to give us a better
understanding of what stalks the fish, when, where and the time of
the passage of that area. He stated that there is progress in that
regard, the board has information on Genetic Stock Identification
(GSI), where the fish caught in the False Pass Area can be
identified as to where they are going. He stated that he has been
very conservative with the restrictions because those decisions
have had to be made on fairly scant information. He stated that
subsistence needs in Western Alaska are of extreme importance and
it has been a driving force on his part to make some of the
restrictions in that area even though he did not have all the
information he would have liked, to have to make those informed
decisions.
Number 1203
REPRESENTATIVE IVAN stated that he would be interested if he could
identify some of the shortcomings in the data from the Department
of Fish and Game and if he could send that information.
Number 1223
MR. ENGEL stated that he would be happy to do so.
Number 1239
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if Mr. Engel was aware that the wire-
coding in the Deshka River was a dismal failure.
Number 1254
MR. ENGEL replied that it has been a dismal failure. They have
been unable to catch a significant number of fish, as it takes a
lot of young fish to be wire-coded, to get the types of information
they need when they later return as adults. He stated that he is
pleased that the Department is continuing that program with the
hatchery fish and there is a large number of fish tagged in the
Willow Creek area and elsewhere in Cook Inlet. He stated that
hopefully, with the by-catch information a understanding of the
distribution of these fish in the Cook Inlet areas can make an
informed decision. He stated that right now there is a blank as to
the migration patterns, particularly in Cook Inlet, where the fish
are rearing out and susceptible to harvest.
Number 1299
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he just recently found out that it
was a failure and has been waiting for the data to settle the
disputes particularly in the area of the by-catch in the Shelikof
Straights. He asked if it was feasible to do an enhancement
project with King Salmon in the Deshka River.
Number 1331
MR. ENGEL stated that it was possible but we need to figure out
what is causing the problem before we invest a lot of money in
hatcheries. Four or five years ago the run was extremely healthy
and all of a sudden it has gone sick. He stated that we need to
identify what the factors are, rather than pouring a lot of
hatchery money into it.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN suggested that he would gladly pay $10 for the
King Salmon tag and with the support of the Board of Fisheries, if
there would be some enhancement of the Deshka River. He stated
that wire-coded fish can be put in there to figure out the dispute
of where the fish are being intercepted.
Number 1405
MR. ENGEL replied that it would be one of the ways to find the
information needed, by looking at the hatchery fish as a research
vehicle and would concur with something like that. He stated he
did go over to the Deshka River to visit the camps and look at the
trapping devices. He felt the Department of Fish and Game's
frustration of not being able to catch the fish. He stated that he
was aware of this right from the start of the project.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he wished he was.
Number 1464
ED DERSHAM, Appointee, Alaska Board of Fisheries, testified via
teleconference from Homer, that he was from western Oregon,
graduated from the University of Oregon, spent 15 years working for
the U.S. Department of Justice and retired in 1984. He stated that
he was also a part-time sport fish guide in Alaska on the Deshka
River from 1977 to 1984. He stated since that time he and his wife
have owned and operated a sport fishing lodge out of Anchor Point.
The fishing takes place on the lower east side of Cook Inlet, he
stated that we take fishermen out for King Salmon, Silver Salmon
and halibut. He stated that he is a past president of the Anchor
Point Charter Association and the South Peninsula Sportsmen's
Association and have worked quite a bit in joint efforts with
commercial fishermen in the lower Cook Inlet area.
Number 1567
MR. DERSHAM stated that his reason for wanting to be on the Board
of Fisheries, is because he has been involved in fishing all his
life and he has a desire to give something back. He stated that he
is concerned about the conservation issues facing the fisheries of
Alaska and the future that it is facing. He stated that he has a
desire to add to the effort that is already going on with the
current members of the board.
Number 1606
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that Mr. Dersham has an extensive
working knowledge in the halibut charter business and there is a
lot of controversy in the state with allocation between commercial
and sport fisheries. He asked him to talk about it.
Number 1634
MR. DERSHAM replied that he has been involved in that issue and he
forgot to mention that he has appointed to the Halibut Charter
Working Group of the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council.
He stated that he has been involved in that issue for the last
three years. He feels comfortable with the current status of the
negotiations and the current position of the council on this issue.
He stated that they are going to be taking more information on
April 14th in Anchorage and then plan for final action in June. He
stated that he is not sure what that action was going to be but he
is comfortable with the information that has been gathered as well
as the process and that the final decision will work for everyone
involved.
Number 1691
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that living in the area, Mr. Dersham
must have a good idea of the problems that the Kenai River Drainage
has with set netters and guides on the river and asked if he had
any ideas on how to deal with that situation.
Number 1704
MR. DERSHAM replied that conservation issues are fairly easy. He
said "In the Anchorage meeting in early March we dealt with a Coho
Salmon issue that involved all the user groups but since there were
conversation aspects that made our decision aspects a littler
easier and we wound up attempting to cut back each fishery in the
in a percentage reasonably similar to the percentage of the cohos
that it was already taking." He said that this meant that the
guided fishery was the one taking the biggest hit. Strictly
allocation decisions are more difficult. He stated that there was
a salt water King Salmon issue that impacted the fishery on the
sport side and he had several meetings at advisory committee
locations where members of the department, members of the committee
and user groups came to a consensus position to the Board of
Fisheries. He stated he is in favor of the approach of having as
much input as possible to help the board in its work.
Number 1812
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he appreciated that answer and
knows that there are a lot of hard decisions to be made. He stated
that it takes some real statesmen to be on the board and he hopes
that Mr. Dersham will be one of them.
Number 1834
DALE BONDURANT, testified via teleconference from Kenai, that he
supports both Larry Engel and Ed Dersham for confirmation before
the Board of Fisheries. He stated that he has known Larry Engel
for several years and that by seeing him work as chairmen of the
Board and thinks that Mr. Engel has shown a lot of professional
knowledge and is respected in his decisions in fish resource
management regulations. He stated that he has not known Mr.
Dersham for very long but he does approve of his approach in
instructing his charter clients to use common sense in self
limiting their personal use harvest. He stated it is good that he
tells the clients to limit themselves to want they will use.
Number 1921
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS stated that she supports Ed Dersham
for the Board of Fisheries and has worked with him and his wife on
many different issues throughout the time she has been involved in
the legislature. She stated that Mr. Dersham, through and through,
is an Alaskan and is concerned about many things that occur in
Alaska. He and his wife are good business people, they run a good
business, are fair to their clients and will bring these qualities
to the Board of Fisheries. She stated that she has seen Mr.
Dersham work in extremely tense situations, involving extremely
irate people in issues, involving the lower Kenai Peninsula and he
always get things on an even keel and has been able to bring
consensus between a lot of different people. She stated that this
is one of the best appointments to the Board of Fisheries and would
encourage all members to support it and would be glad to personally
talk with any members.
Number 1986
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he supports both members and does
not have a problem with forwarding there names to the Joint
Senate/House Confirmation Hearings.
Number 2007
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA made a motion that the appointment of Larry
Engel be forwarded to the Joint Session for consideration and
confirmation.
Number 2029
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS objected.
Number 2052
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there was discussion.
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that it was clear that the committee
is just forwarding the appointee, not endorsing the appointee.
Number 2060
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he objected for purposes of a
vote asked what the process was.
Number 2068
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that the process is that we move the
names forward for other confirmation hearings.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he objected as a means of having
a vote on it, like passing a bill out of committee.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that all we are doing is moving names out
of the committee to a hearing and will have the opportunity to vote
at the Joint Session.
Number 2071
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he would remove his objection.
Number 2077
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there were any further objections,
hearing none, it was so ordered.
Number 2083
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN made a motion to move that the appointment of
Ed Dersham be forward to the Joint Session for confirmation.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there was an objection, hearing none,
it was so ordered.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 2112
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN adjourned the Special Committee on Fisheries at
5:39 p.m.
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