Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/27/1998 08:07 AM House CRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS
STANDING COMMITTEE
April 27, 1998
8:07 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Ivan Ivan, Chairman
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Joe Ryan
Representative Jerry Sanders
Representative Albert Kookesh
Representative Reggie Joule
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Scott Ogan
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 281(RES)
"An Act relating to general grant land entitlements for the City
and Borough of Yakutat; and providing for an effective date."
- MOVED HCSCSSB 281(CRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: SB 281
SHORT TITLE: YAKUTAT GENERAL GRANT LAND ENTITLEMENT
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) MACKIE
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/06/98 2426 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
2/06/98 2426 (S) CRA, RES
2/23/98 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
2/23/98 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
2/24/98 2629 (S) CRA RPT CS 1DP 3NR SAME TITLE
2/24/98 2629 (S) DP: MACKIE NR: HOFFMAN, PHILLIPS,
WILKEN
2/24/98 2630 (S) FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS (DNR)
2/24/98 2630 (S) FIN REFERRAL ADDED: RES THEN FIN
3/20/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
3/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
3/23/98 (S) MINUTE(RES)
4/17/98 3335 (S) RES RPT CS 2DP 4NR SAME TITLE
4/17/98 3336 (S) DP: TORGERSON, LEMAN; NR: HALFORD,
4/17/98 3336 (S) LINCOLN, SHARP, GREEN
4/17/98 3336 (S) FISCAL NOTE TO CS (DNR)
4/21/98 (S) FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532
4/21/98 (S) RLS AT 12:15 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
4/21/98 3411 (S) FIN RPT 4DP 3NR (RES)CS
4/21/98 3411 (S) DP: PEARCE, SHARP, ADAMS, TORGERSON
4/21/98 3411 (S) NR: PHILLIPS, PARNELL, DONLEY
4/21/98 3411 (S) PREVIOUS FN (DNR)
4/22/98 3435 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 4/22/98
4/22/98 3439 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
4/22/98 3439 (S) RES CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT
4/22/98 3439 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN
CONSENT
4/22/98 3439 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 281(RES)
4/22/98 3439 (S) PASSED Y19 N- E1
4/22/98 3445 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
4/23/98 3209 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/23/98 3209 (H) CRA, FINANCE
4/27/98 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
SENATOR JERRY MACKIE
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 427
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-4925
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of CSSB 281(RES).
DARYL JAMES, Mayor
City and Borough of Yakutat
P.O. Box 411
Yakutat, Alaska 99689
Telephone: (907) 784-3323
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the proposed
HCSCSSB 281(CRA).
DICK MYLIUS
Resource Assessment and Development
Division of Land
Department of Natural Resources
3601 "C" Street, Suite 1130
Anchorage, Alaska 99503-5947
Telephone: (907) 269-8532
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HCSCSSB 218(CRA).
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-23, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIRMAN IVAN IVAN called the House Community and Regional Affairs
Standing Committee meeting to order at 8:07 a.m. Members present
at the call to order were Representatives Ivan, Dyson, Ryan,
Sanders, Kookesh and Joule.
CSSB 281 (RES) - YAKUTAT GENERAL GRANT LAND ENTITLEMENT
Number 003
CHAIRMAN IVAN announced the committee would address CSSB 281(RES)
"An Act relating to general grant land entitlements for the City
and Borough of Yakutat; and providing for an effective date,"
sponsored by Senator Mackie.
SENATOR JERRY MACKIE came before the committee to explain CSSB 281.
He read the following statement into the record:
"Senate Bill 281 was introduced to complete the formation of the
Yakutat Borough and the land entitlements that the state grants to
support local government. Initially, the petition of the people of
Yakutat to incorporate as a borough in 1992 was considerably
reduced in size by the Local Boundary Commission. The land
entitlement for the new borough by the formula of 10 percent of
'vacant, unappropriated, and unreserved (VUU)' state lands was a
mere 138 acres is what the community received.
"The City and Borough of Yakutat subsequently petitioned the Local
Boundary Commission to reclaim much of the area on its northern
boarder. In a reversal of its earlier decision, the Local Boundary
Commission approved the annexation which contains a substantial
amount of state VUU lands. It is estimated that if the annexed
area had been included for the original borough formation, the
municipal entitlement would amounted to about 33,000 acres.
"It has been a long established policy for the state to assist the
formation and operation of local governments with generous grants
of state land. Senate Bill 281 corrects the defects in the borough
formation process that resulted in such a small land entitlement
for the City and Borough of Yakutat by increasing its entitlement
to 21,500 acres. The [Senate] Resources Committee version reduced
the additional entitlement to 8,552 [acres]. The bill also extends
the authority of the director of the Division of Lands in the
Department of Natural Resources to condition and restrict any of
the municipality's selections made under this increased grant."
SENATOR MACKIE explained that the bill would give the City and
Borough of Yakutat the land in the same fashion any other borough
that is formed would receive land. He noted that on page 1, line
6 through page 2, line 6, other boroughs are listed that have
received land. He said the mayor of Yakutat and several other
people have been working on this for a number of years. They have
gone way out of their way to accommodate everyone involved.
Senator Mackie explained the area is a myriad of streams and
tributaries. It is a habitat area that is real critical to the
fishing industry and a lot of other state agencies. He pointed out
that there is university land, Chugach Native Corporation land,
department of Natural Resources (DNR) and fish and game concerns.
He referred to mental health lands and said that was the last
stumbling block they had to deal with and those concerns were all
worked out.
SENATOR MACKIE said when the bill was introduced, it asked that the
state award 30,000 acres to Yakutat. The Senate Community and
Regional Affairs Committee reduced that amount to 21,500. That
figure was the number that everyone could agree to and everybody
supported it. It was reduced because the Mental Health Trust
Authority and the university had some concerns. All the issues
were worked out. Senator Mackie informed the committee that before
any of the lands can be given to Yakutat, it first has to be
nominated. The director of the Division of Lands in DNR will look
at the area, consider other concerns from state agencies and then
make a decision as to whether to allow lands to be selected. Once
the lands are selected, the City and Borough of Yakutat will have
to have it surveyed, et cetera, at their own expense. Senator
Mackie encouraged the committee to consider the 21,500 acre number.
Number 133
REPRESENTATIVE JOE RYAN said, "I remember back in my municipal days
that this land was supposed to be used as a basis for them to get
the money together to get the government but everybody got a
municipal entitlement and they're sitting the land. Up in
Fairbanks, when I served on the assembly, they still got 108,000
out of 112,000 and it was given 30 years ago. Is there any
guarantee these guys are going to let this land loose because I'd
love to see land get away from the state if somebody would put it
into private hands. You know, I would really like to facilitate
that. But are we going to give these folks 20,000 they're going to
sit on for 30 years or what's the plan?"
SENATOR MACKIE said some of the land probably will not be able to
be developed because of how it is designated and whether it is in
habitat areas. He stated there is a very viable forest industry in
the Yakutat Borough. They work together with the forest companies
and build consensus on things and that is how they will do it with
this land. Senator Mackie pointed out that currently they have
only 138 acres. The land will be used for municipal needs,
watershed needs and other types of home sites if they choose to
make land available to the public. He explained that the Yakutat
Borough is the newest borough in the state and they have every
interest of progressing and trying to become more self sufficient
and viable. Without the land base, they won't be able to do that.
Number 170
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON said, "It seems like last session there
was a Yakutat land selection boundary commission step. How does
that relate to this?"
SENATOR MACKIE explained it was the annexation that was approved.
The final designation of the boundaries of the Yakutat Borough was
approved by the Local Boundary Commission. What was before the
legislature last year was a resolution to overturn that annexation
by the Local Boundary Commission. He said the House Community and
Regional Affairs Committee, after taking testimony, did not allow
that to happen. The state land within those boundaries is what is
of issue today in terms of what amount of that land will actually
go the ownership of the municipality.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if the committee is currently addressing
the 8,500 acres.
SENATOR MACKIE said that is correct.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked how it got from 28,000 acres down to
8,000 acres.
SENATOR MACKIE explained the change was made in the Senate
Resources Committee. Senator Halford changed it from 21,000 acres
to 8,552. Senator Mackie said he doesn't support that as the final
number.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked what the arguments were against 21,000
acres or 30,000 acres.
SENATOR MACKIE explained when Yakutat became a borough, if they had
the boundaries that they currently have, they would have been
entitled to about 33,000 acres. He referred to the Senate
Community and Regional Affairs Committee and said during the
negotiations with all the different entities, they actually looked
at the lands that would possibly be selected and that actually
would be usable. In terms of that negotiation process, 21,000
acres was the number that they believes everybody could support
because it eliminated certain parcels of land that people had
concern with. Senator Mackie said the Senate Resources Committee
decided that was too much land and reduced the amount to 8,552
acres. He said the basis was that if they save 10 percent VUU land
at this current time, if it just now became a borough today, the
vacant VUU land would be 8,552 which is 10 percent of 8,500 acres.
They had, in their mind, a formula that worked. Again, this is an
arbitrary type of decision that the legislature could make.
Senator Mackie said he wouldn't say that that formula was totally
flawed or anything else. He stated it was another way of looking
at it which reduced the size of the land. Senator Mackie said he
was told that the real concern was in the Cape Yakataga area, if
Prince William Sound ever wanted to become a borough, that they had
to leave some land in order to have them come down. The borough
boundaries of the City and Borough of Yakutat have already been
set. He said he didn't buy that argument because they're not going
to come in and just take away half the Yakutat Borough after they
just went through all of this process. So all the land that's
being nominated here within the 21,500 acres is clearly within the
boundaries of the Yakutat Borough. It's clearly a decision that
the legislature can make and has made in all these different
instances where we've given out the land. He said the only reason
that he's supporting the 21,500 is because that's what everybody
agrees to and there is no opposition to that whatsoever.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said the 21,000 acres eliminates the concerns
for competing claims for the land.
SENATOR MACKIE responded that the 21,000 acres is only about 25
percent of the vacant VUU land. There is in excess of 85,000 acres
of state land. This would only be about one-quarter of that. He
explained 8,500 acres represents 10 percent of the vacant VUU land
of state land and 21,000 acres would represent approximately 25
percent. He noted the formula is the same formula that was used
for Anchorage, Juneau, Sitka, Bristol Bay, Fairbanks, Haines,
Kenai, Ketchikan, Kodiak, Lake and Peninsula, Mat-Su and North
Slope.
Number 323
REPRESENTATIVE ALBERT KOOKESH moved an amendment and asked to speak
on it. The amendment read as follows:
Page 2, line 5, following "Yakutat":
Delete "8,552"
Insert "21,500"
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN objected for the purpose of an explanation.
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH said, "Yakutat, when it decided to form a
borough, is doing what most of the majority members in the House
and Senate want unorganized areas of the state to do and that is to
form a borough so that they would take charge of their own destiny
- that they would be responsible for some of the government
services that need to be offered in that area." Representative
Kookesh said to offer them 138 is an insult. He said 21,500 acres
is still not the entire entitlement that they're entitled to but
that is what everybody agreed to. He stated he agrees with the
sponsor in that the Borough of Yakutat and the other entities
involved have agreed that is a number everyone can agree to. There
is no objection to it and it should be passed on. The borough
needs that kind of acreage to survive."
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH explained that there is a tax consequence in
that if it is any less, it would impact the borough. If the
borough is under funded, at least with land, it would be a
disservice and it would put them at a negative impasse immediately
on the formation of their borough. Representative Kookesh said
there is a letter from their assembly stating that if the amount of
land is below 21,500, maybe the bill should die which is sad for
two reasons. "One, because we're the ones that want them to form
a borough in the first place; and secondly, if they let this bill
die then their next step is to dissolve the borough." He stated
they would dissolve the borough because they don't have enough land
to operate. Representative Kookesh said there is no formula that
says anybody is entitled to a certain amount. He said, "I
understand the Anchorage scenario where they got 44,000 acres but
at the same time you look at the value of that 44,000 acres
compared to the value of the acreage, for example, in the Fairbanks
North Star Borough - 112,000 acres. That 44,000 acres is certainly
worth a lot more."
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH referred to being familiar with the Yakutat
area and said there is a lot of marsh in that area. A lot of that
land will probably be unusable for development. Representative
Kookesh said he believes it is in the best interest of the state
and the borough that the amendment be accepted and allow the
Yakutat Borough to start off on equal footing with the rest of the
boroughs in the state. As a last point, Representative Kookesh
pointed out that there are enough other rural areas of the state
that are watching the Yakutat Borough and the legislature as it
relates to organizing a borough. If they perceive a negative
reaction from the legislature, that is a further reason for other
rural areas not to organized. There needs to be a path for
unorganized rural areas to be able to go forward to organize and to
get a fair land entitlement in order to survive.
Number 384
CHAIRMAN IVAN asked Representative Ryan if he still maintained his
objection.
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN withdrew his objection.
CHAIRMAN IVAN announced the amendment by Representative Kookesh had
been adopted.
Number 389
DARYL JAMES, Mayor, City and Borough of Yakutat, came before the
committee. He explained that as stated by Senator Mackie, the City
and Borough of Yakutat has negotiated with all interested parties
to bring about a consensus to land selections. The original bill
included 30,000 acres and it was brought down to 21,000 acres by
the interaction with the concerned parties. As the economy and
state funding continues to decrease, the cities and boroughs are
looking more to developing their areas economically. He referred
to the area in question and said there are fishermen who have land
leases with the state of Alaska and they would like to have their
areas turned over to them as private land so they can use it
without continuing leases with the state. Mr. James stated his
emphasis, as mayor over the last six years, is to look at the
economic development of the area. Over the past six years, the
economy has continued to drop not only in fisheries but in all
resources. The land basis is needed to spread out the property
taxes to help offset the continuing decreases in both state and
federal funding.
Number 423
DICK MYLIUS, Resource Assessment and Development, Division of Land,
Department of Natural Resources, testified via teleconference from
Anchorage. He stated DNR supports granting the City and Borough of
Yakutat an additional land entitlement. Mr. Mylius said the
department feels that Yakutat deserves an additional entitlement
because it received a very small entitlement under the formula in
AS 29.65. The reason they support it is because there simply was
very little land in the original borough. The borough subsequently
added a large block of state land to the borough in an area that
they clearly have desired to have included in the original borough
proposal. Had this area been included initially, they would have
received an additional entitlement which would have been 33,000
acres. However, subsequent to that, the DNR has done the Yakataga
area plan and settled litigation over the University of Alaska's
timber rights in that area. Therefore, the department believes
they couldn't come up with 30,000 acres of land to convey to the
City and Borough of Yakutat because the situation there had changed
from the time of when they originally proposed to include this area
in the borough. Mr. Mylius explained DNR supported the bill at
21,500 acres. They prefer, in a way, the smaller amount proposed
by the Senate but would be willing work to convey them the 21,500
acres. He said the department believes it is going to be difficult
to come up with 21,500 acres of entitlement because of the existing
uses in the area and the delicate balance struck between timber
harvest, wildlife and recreation. The department has agreed to try
to come up with that amount of acreage should that be the acreage
specified in the bill. He informed the committee members that the
City and Borough of Yakutat is in a real unique situation because
of the interaction of the original borough proposal, the planning
process and then coming back through annexation. If they were to
add this area to the borough today by forming a borough, their
entitlement would have been the 8,552 figure. That is basically
what applying the 10 percent formula would have given them. The 10
percent formula is really not arbitrary, it's what the department
has used for other municipalities.
MR. MYLIUS explained that the 1978 legislation that set out the
numbers for the Fairbanks North Star Borough, the Municipality of
Anchorage and the City and Borough of Juneau was based on a formula
that was roughly 10 percent, but it did factor in population and
other factors. Since that time, any new municipality that has
formed got strictly the 10 percent. For example, the Denali
Borough, the Northwest Arctic Borough and the Aleutian East Borough
had the 10 percent applied - 10 percent of vacant, unappropriated,
unreserved state lands. The exception was the Lake and Peninsula
Borough because the land use planning for that area resulted in
their entitlement being what they thought was unrealistically low
and the legislature gave them a larger entitlement.
MR. MYLIUS said that there was a cap for several years that said
that municipalities could only get 20 acres per person. That
existed for about two years. He said he believes that the only
municipality that would have been applied to would have been the
Northwest Arctic Borough. The legislation was changed so it
wouldn't apply to them. If such a cap were applied to the City and
Borough of Yakutat, their entitlement would be about 16,000 acres
because their population is 802 people - 802 X 20 = 16,040.
MR. MYLIUS stated DNR agreed to the 21,500 acres in their
discussion with Yakutat because DNR felt that they were a unique
situation because of the interaction of their original
incorporation proposal, the planning, et cetera. He said he would
answer any questions the committee may have.
Number 479
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked what the time frame is going to be for
the transfer of the land to the borough if the legislation passes.
MR. MYLIUS responded, "That depends on whether or not the City and
Borough of Yakutat is willing to pay. Basically, the way we set it
up right now is we've got a huge back load of municipal
entitlements as a result of formation of some of those boroughs I
mentioned, particularly Northwest Arctic, Denali, Lake and Pen. So
we've got a backlog of over 600,000 acres owed to other
municipalities and with our current staffing, it's going to take
many years to convey that. And the City and Borough of Yakutat
basically goes to the end of the line and so it could be as long as
15 to 20 years before they get the bulk of their land. However, if
they are willing to essentially pay to have a DNR staff person
available to help expedite some of their lands, we could speed that
up significantly. And some of the other boroughs like Lake and
Peninsula Borough has thought about doing that to get their land
and we've talked about that with the City and Borough of Yakutat.
In fact, if you've noticed there is fiscal note attached to this
bill and in that fiscal note we have the amount of money that it
would cost to transfer the lands to the city and borough. It shows
up under program receipts in the source of the funding. That would
be because if we were to process these expeditiously, we'd want the
city and borough to pay, otherwise in fairness to those other
boroughs that have been waiting for their land, we'd essentially
put them to the end of the line. However, if there is a chunk of
land they need immediately for a community development project or
something, we try to process those as soon as we can. For example,
I mentioned the Denali Borough is waiting for a bunch of their land
but we've also conveyed them about 4,000 acres of land, so there is
mostly subdivision lots they can turn around and sell in the near
future. Even though we've got a large outstanding debt to all
these municipalities, we still try to get them land they need for
immediate needs."
Number 513
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON made a motion to move CSSB 281, as amended,
out of committee with individual recommendations and with the
attached the fiscal note. There being no objection, HCSCSSB
218(CRA) moved out of House Community and Regional Affairs Standing
Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 521
CHAIRMAN IVAN adjourned the House Community and Regional Affairs
Standing Committee at 8:44 a.m.
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