Legislature(1997 - 1998)
01/20/1998 03:30 PM Senate STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SB 214 - PEACE OFFICERS/ CONCEALED WEAPONS MS. PORTIA PARKER, staff to Senator Miller, presented SB 214. She said the bill makes two changes to recently enacted SB 141. She explained the reason for the bill was to address a problem unintentionally created by a last-minute amendment to the bill last session. The bill as-is inadvertently limits the ability of a peace officer to carry a concealed weapon while on duty in their first year of service. This bill is a result of cooperation with the Alaska Peace Officers Association and allows officers and certain administrative officers to carry a concealed weapon while on or off the job without having to obtain a state permit. MR. LEONARD ABEL identified himself as a pro-gun member of the NRA and a concealed carry permittee as well as a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and the Community Mental Health Services Program Administrator for the Division of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities. He stated he had worked with Representative James' staff on the original bill, especially in relation to mental health issues. He said now the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has the ability to deny a permit to a person who had a serious mental illness, whether they had been committed of not. To invoke this, the person would have been brought to the attention of the department. So far, he said, only one person has been denied a permit by this procedure. He explained that by changing Section 12 in SB 141, this requirement would be dropped and only people who have been committed could be denied. He believes there are people out there who have not been committed who should not carry concealed weapons. This is his main concern and he believes it could be rectified by a return to the original language of the bill. He does not believe it is overly restrictive as it requires an illness that substantially impairs a persons actions or perceptions. SENATOR MACKIE wondered how Mr. Abel proposed the issuers of the permits would determine a person's mental illness. He asked how this could be accomplished without the infringement of a person's civil liberties. Number 261 MR. ABEL said court action records could be obtained or other information may surface. SENATOR MACKIE asked again if someone has never been officially diagnosed, who would decide if a permit should be issued. MR. ABEL replied a person denied can appeal and any allegations could be checked out. SENATOR MACKIE asked if anyone off the street could offer an opinion that would lead to a denial. MR. ABEL suggested that it has only happened once in 7,500 permits and seems the appropriate thing to do. SENATOR MACKIE expressed discomfort with vague definitions but agreed with the idea. He wondered if the vague wording might cause legal or constitutional problems. MR. ABEL replied that with the change there might be more control available when the situation arose. SENATOR GREEN appreciated Mr. Abel's attempt to balance the issues at stake. She stated that the scope of the bill was limited to a fix of SB 141 and she planned it would stay that way. SENATOR DUNCAN commented that he thought Mr. Abel's testimony was important and he was willing to offer an amendment to broaden the bill's scope. He moved his amendment which he explained addressed the concerns regarding mental illness, indicted felons, and domestic violence facilities. There was objection to the amendment and it was held for discussion. Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director of the Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault (ANDVSA) realized this was targeted to the law enforcement problem, but hoped it could be broadened to include ANDVSA's concerns. Her first concern regarded misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence. She said these will not be covered under SB 141, thus not applicable to the prohibition against applying for a permit. Her second concern was court orders - certain protective orders do not fall under the federal definition which would keep violators of these kind of orders from possessing handguns. She expressed a third concern about facilities providing services to victims of domestic violence. She said the difference between the state and federal definitions of domestic violence misdemeanors has to do with elements of the crime. Federal domestic violence misdemeanors require the use of force or the threatened use of a deadly weapon by people in certain types of relationships. The definitions restrict the crimes that would be covered and ANDVSA believes offenders of these crimes should not be allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit. She said this was the case prior to SB 141. She added that all court orders will not be covered, only those with a specific finding prohibiting domestic violence. Her last concern regarded domestic violence shelters. She spoke to an amendment prohibiting carrying concealed weapons in domestic violence shelters, saying all programs are not shelters and therefore all are not covered and should be. She stated her concerns were voiced in order of priority. SENATOR DUNCAN said he believed his amendment would address most of the concerns of ANDVSA. MR. DEAN GUANELI, representing the Department of Law (DOL) spoke to the concerns of prosecutors relating to those people charged with felony crimes attempting to obtain a concealed carry permit. He agreed with Senator Taylor that theoretically good judges would impose restrictions on carrying firearms in many cases. However, he believes that judges might not necessarily do this unless the alleged crime involved a weapon. He suggested that theory does not mirror practice. DOL thinks this restriction is important and is sufficiently narrow. SENATOR MILLER remarked that it seems we are going in a direction that assumes guilt until innocence is proven and he has a problem with this. MR. GUANELI understood this concern but says the courts currently lock people up until trial when the evidence warrants it and thinks it is not much more to deny them concealed weapons. SENATOR MILLER wanted to know if these people could openly carry a weapon. MR. GUANELI affirmed they could, unless restricted by a judge. SENATOR MACKIE wondered if this applied to any type of felony. MR. GUANELI said as it is, yes, but it could be limited to certain types of offenses. SENATOR WARD asked how many judges fail to impose restrictions. He added that he would like those judges' names. MR. GUANELI was unsure, he said he would get the information but estimated it to be in the hundreds. TAPE 98-1 SIDE B Number 001 SENATOR GREEN asked if their was a prohibition for indicted felons in federal law. MR. GUANELI thought so, prohibiting the purchase of a firearm. SENATOR GREEN believed the prohibition covered purchase or possession, so this was unnecessary at the state level. MR. GUANELI said if that was the case, it was unnecessary. He added as clarification he did not believe the prohibition applied to indicted felons, only convicted felons. MR. GUANELI restated his previous point that a judge may not impose a weapons restriction on a person indicted, unless the crime involved a weapon. SENATOR GREEN interjected that we all know these people don't get permits in the first place. She said she had no problem saying criminals should not carry weapons. JAYNE ANDREEN, Director of the Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, agreed with Lauree Houginin's testimony and added that the State of Alaska adopted the Domestic Violence Prevention and Victim Protection Act of 1996. She said this is a model code on domestic violence from a national level. It is used across the nation to evaluate states' progress. She stated an expert in the field has said Alaska has one of the most comprehensive bodies of statute in the country. She repeated Ms. Houginin's point about the difference in state and federal misdemeanor standards and urged the committee to look at the proposed amendment which, in her opinion, is vitally important to continue protecting victims in Alaska. DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety (DPS), administers the concealed handgun permit program. He has worked with staff on the law enforcement problem in the past. He says the current problem may affect 100 people at any given time and is affecting eight people in Juneau at this time. He would like to see this bill passed in a timely manner to address this concern and prevent future problems for law enforcement. He shared concerns about domestic violence shelters as previously expressed but stated SB 214 does correct his main concern. SENATOR MACKIE repeated his question about how a determination might be made that a person is mentally ill. MR. SMITH said in this one case where a permit was denied, information was provided by a person who knew the applicant. He said staff cannot determine mental illness at the permit counter but would like to reserve the right to use discretion. SENATOR MACKIE asked if discretion would be used like police officers on the street employ. MR. SMITH replied that his concern was if the department had not received this information, this person would have gotten a permit. He said the department does contact local police departments prior to issuing a permit but application of the federal standard would have not allowed them to deny this person a permit. SENATOR MACKIE agreed with this but expressed concern with the possibility of infringement of rights due to another person's personal agenda. MR. SMITH reminded the committee that a person dissatisfied with the denial of a permit can make a complaint and the department would investigate the source. He said they are not being arbitrary denying people permits. SENATOR WARD asked if this person denied a permit could carry openly. MR. SMITH said as far as he knows, yes. SENATOR WARD repeated his question, saying even though the department received information about this person, he was not adjudicated and could carry openly then and now. MR. SMITH agreed that he had not been adjudicated and could carry openly then and now. MS. PORTIA PARKER returned to say it was her understanding that federal law prohibited anyone under felony indictment from purchasing or possessing a firearm. She stated that with the current definition of mental illness there would be no prohibition against a person carrying a weapon. She added that under the law two class A misdemeanors in a six-year period would disallow a person from being eligible for a concealed carry permit. She said it was a conscious decision by the bill sponsor to omit a prohibition on carrying concealed weapons on private property and they would be opposed to an amendment expanding a prohibition to private property. SENATOR MILLER introduced the committee substitute and Ms. Parker explained the changes as a suggestion from the bill drafter, changing local to municipal and clarifying the type of law enforcement administrative officers to whom the bill would apply. SENATOR DUNCAN reminded the committee of his amendment but held his motion at this time. SENATOR WARD moved the adoption of CSSB 214(STA). He stated perhaps he and Senator Duncan could work jointly on other issues proposed in another piece of legislation. SENATOR MACKIE asked if the amendment was drafted correctly to the bill. He agreed that section seven of the amendment regarding mental health should be addressed, due to Mr. Abel's testimony. SENATOR GREEN repeated that she would like to have people deal with other concerns in separate legislation. She said this bill is to make a correction to the previous bill as it relates to peace officers. SENATOR WARD offered his belief that adjudication is necessary before a person's right to bear arms is taken away. He would like better definition of this issue. SENATOR DUNCAN expressed to the committee the seriousness of his amendment and believed the testimony of the experts in law enforcement and domestic violence should be addressed immediately. He feared if they were not, they may never reach discussion again. He said he would like clarification on the federal law regarding purchase or purchase and possession of firearms and believes the committee should err on the side of safety. He expressed confidence in the people working with victims of domestic violence and validated their concerns regarding domestic violence facilities. He recounted that there had been lengthy discussion regarding the difference between carrying openly and carrying concealed and in his view it was a major difference. He asked the committee to divide the amendment into four parts: part one being subsection 7 regarding mental illness; part two regarding a person charged with a felony; part three dealing with the crimes of domestic violence and stalking and the fourth part dealing with the facilities providing services to victims of domestic violence. He found these four topics important enough to merit separate rulings by the committee. He moved the division of the amendment. SENATOR WARD objected, roll was taken and the motion failed four to one. SENATOR DUNCAN appreciated the vote on division of the amendment and renewed his motion to move the entire amendment. SENATOR MACKIE said he would vote no on the amendment, agreeing with Senator Duncan on some points but saying it was crucial to address the law enforcement problem immediately. Roll was taken and the amendment failed four to one. SENATOR WARD moved the bill be passed out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note. Without objection, the bill was moved.
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