Legislature(1997 - 1998)

01/20/1998 03:30 PM Senate STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
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           SB 214 - PEACE OFFICERS/ CONCEALED WEAPONS                          
                                                                               
MS. PORTIA PARKER, staff to Senator Miller, presented SB 214. She              
said the bill makes  two changes to recently enacted SB 141. She               
explained the reason for the bill was to address a problem                     
unintentionally created by a last-minute amendment to the bill last            
session. The bill as-is inadvertently limits the ability of a peace            
officer to carry a concealed weapon while on duty in their first               
year of service. This bill is a result of cooperation with the                 
Alaska Peace Officers Association and allows officers and certain              
administrative officers to carry a concealed weapon while on or off            
the job without having to obtain a state permit.                               
                                                                               
MR. LEONARD ABEL identified himself as a pro-gun member of the NRA             
and a concealed carry permittee as well as a Ph.D. in clinical                 
psychology and the Community Mental Health Services Program                    
Administrator for the Division of Mental Health and Developmental              
Disabilities. He stated he had worked with Representative James'               
staff on the original bill, especially in relation to mental health            
issues. He said now the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has the              
ability to deny a permit to a person who had a serious mental                  
illness, whether they had been committed of not. To invoke this,               
the person would have been brought to the attention of the                     
department. So far, he said, only one person has been denied a                 
permit by this procedure. He explained that by changing Section 12             
in SB 141, this requirement would be dropped and only people who               
have been committed could be denied. He believes there are people              
out there who have not been committed who should not carry                     
concealed weapons. This is his main concern and he believes it                 
could be rectified by a return to the original language of the                 
bill. He does not believe it is overly restrictive as it requires              
an illness that substantially impairs a persons actions or                     
perceptions.                                                                   
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE wondered how Mr. Abel proposed the issuers of the               
permits would determine a person's mental illness. He asked how                
this could be accomplished without the infringement of a person's              
civil liberties.                                                               
                                                                               
Number 261                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. ABEL said court action records could be obtained or other                  
information may surface.                                                       
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE asked again if someone has never been officially                
diagnosed, who would decide if a permit should be issued.                      
                                                                               
MR. ABEL replied a person denied can appeal and any allegations                
could be checked out.                                                          
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE asked if anyone off the street could offer an                   
opinion that would lead to a denial.                                           
                                                                               
MR. ABEL suggested that it has only happened once in 7,500 permits             
and seems the appropriate thing to do.                                         
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE expressed discomfort with vague definitions but                 
agreed with the idea. He wondered if the vague wording might cause             
legal or constitutional problems.                                              
                                                                               
MR. ABEL replied that with the change there might be more control              
available when the situation arose.                                            
                                                                               
SENATOR GREEN appreciated Mr. Abel's attempt to balance the issues             
at stake. She stated that the scope of the bill was limited to a               
fix of SB 141 and she planned it would stay that way.                          
                                                                               
SENATOR DUNCAN commented that he thought Mr. Abel's testimony was              
important and he was willing to offer an amendment to broaden the              
bill's scope. He moved his amendment which he explained addressed              
the concerns regarding mental illness, indicted felons, and                    
domestic violence facilities.                                                  
                                                                               
There was objection to the amendment and it was held for                       
discussion.                                                                    
                                                                               
Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director of the Alaska Network on                    
Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault (ANDVSA) realized this was                
targeted to the law enforcement problem, but hoped it could be                 
broadened to include ANDVSA's concerns. Her first concern regarded             
misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence. She said these will not be            
covered under SB 141, thus not applicable to the prohibition                   
against applying for a permit. Her second concern was court orders             
- certain protective orders do not fall under the federal                      
definition which would keep violators of these kind of orders from             
possessing handguns. She expressed a third concern about facilities            
providing services to victims of domestic violence. She said the               
difference between the state and federal definitions of domestic               
violence misdemeanors has to do with elements of the crime. Federal            
domestic violence misdemeanors require the use of force or the                 
threatened use of a deadly weapon by people in certain types of                
relationships. The definitions restrict the crimes that would be               
covered and ANDVSA believes offenders of these crimes should not be            
allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit. She said this was the              
case prior to SB 141. She added that all court orders will not be              
covered, only those with a specific finding prohibiting domestic               
violence. Her last concern regarded domestic violence shelters. She            
spoke to an amendment prohibiting carrying concealed weapons in                
domestic violence shelters, saying all programs are not shelters               
and therefore all are not covered and should be. She stated her                
concerns were voiced in order of priority.                                     
                                                                               
SENATOR DUNCAN said he believed his amendment would address most of            
the concerns of ANDVSA.                                                        
                                                                               
MR. DEAN GUANELI, representing the Department of Law (DOL) spoke to            
the concerns of prosecutors relating to those people charged with              
felony crimes attempting to obtain a concealed carry permit. He                
agreed with Senator Taylor that theoretically good judges would                
impose restrictions on carrying firearms in many cases. However, he            
believes that judges might not necessarily do this unless the                  
alleged crime involved a weapon. He suggested that theory does not             
mirror practice. DOL thinks this restriction is important and is               
sufficiently narrow.                                                           
                                                                               
SENATOR MILLER remarked that it seems we are going in a direction              
that assumes guilt until innocence is proven and he has a problem              
with this.                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. GUANELI understood this concern but says the courts currently              
lock people up until trial when the evidence warrants it and thinks            
it is not much more to deny them concealed weapons.                            
                                                                               
SENATOR MILLER wanted to know if these people could openly carry a             
weapon.                                                                        
                                                                               
MR. GUANELI affirmed they could, unless restricted by a judge.                 
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE wondered if this applied to any type of felony.                 
                                                                               
MR. GUANELI said as it is, yes, but it could be limited to certain             
types of offenses.                                                             
                                                                               
SENATOR WARD asked how many judges fail to impose restrictions. He             
added that he would like those judges' names.                                  
                                                                               
MR. GUANELI was unsure, he said he would get the information but               
estimated it to be in the hundreds.                                            
                                                                               
TAPE 98-1 SIDE B                                                               
Number 001                                                                     
                                                                               
SENATOR GREEN asked if their was a prohibition for indicted felons             
in federal law.                                                                
                                                                               
MR. GUANELI thought so, prohibiting the purchase of a firearm.                 
                                                                               
SENATOR GREEN believed the prohibition covered purchase or                     
possession, so this was unnecessary at the state level.                        
                                                                               
MR. GUANELI said if that was the case, it was unnecessary. He added            
as clarification he did not believe the prohibition applied to                 
indicted felons, only convicted felons.                                        
                                                                               
MR. GUANELI restated his previous point that a judge may not impose            
a weapons restriction on a person indicted, unless the crime                   
involved a weapon.                                                             
                                                                               
SENATOR GREEN interjected that we all know these people don't get              
permits in the first place. She said she had no problem saying                 
criminals should not carry weapons.                                            
                                                                               
JAYNE ANDREEN, Director of the Council on Domestic Violence and                
Sexual Assault, agreed with Lauree Houginin's testimony and added              
that the State of Alaska adopted the Domestic Violence Prevention              
and Victim Protection Act of 1996. She said this is a model code on            
domestic violence from a national level. It is used across the                 
nation to evaluate states' progress. She stated an expert in the               
field has said Alaska has one of the most comprehensive bodies of              
statute in the country. She repeated Ms. Houginin's point about the            
difference in state and federal misdemeanor standards and urged the            
committee to look at the proposed amendment which, in her opinion,             
is vitally important to continue protecting victims in Alaska.                 
                                                                               
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety              
(DPS), administers the concealed handgun permit program. He has                
worked with staff on the law enforcement problem in the past. He               
says the current problem may affect 100 people at any given time               
and is affecting eight people in Juneau at this time. He would like            
to see this bill passed in a timely manner to address this concern             
and prevent future problems for law enforcement. He shared concerns            
about domestic violence shelters as previously expressed but stated            
SB 214 does correct his main concern.                                          
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE repeated his question about how a determination                 
might be made that a person is mentally ill.                                   
                                                                               
MR. SMITH said in this one case where a permit was denied,                     
information was provided by a person who knew the applicant. He                
said staff cannot determine mental illness at the permit counter               
but would like to reserve the right to use discretion.                         
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE asked if discretion would be used like police                   
officers on the street employ.                                                 
                                                                               
MR. SMITH replied that his concern was if the department had not               
received this information, this person would have gotten a permit.             
He said the department does contact local police departments prior             
to issuing a permit but application of the federal standard would              
have not allowed them to deny this person a permit.                            
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE agreed with this but expressed concern with the                 
possibility of infringement of rights due to another person's                  
personal agenda.                                                               
                                                                               
MR. SMITH reminded the committee that a person dissatisfied with               
the denial of a permit can make a complaint and the department                 
would investigate the source. He said they are not being arbitrary             
denying people permits.                                                        
                                                                               
SENATOR WARD asked if this person denied a permit could carry                  
openly.                                                                        
                                                                               
MR. SMITH said as far as he knows, yes.                                        
                                                                               
SENATOR WARD repeated his question, saying even though the                     
department received information about this person, he was not                  
adjudicated and could carry openly then and now.                               
                                                                               
MR. SMITH agreed that he had not been adjudicated and could carry              
openly then and now.                                                           
                                                                               
MS. PORTIA PARKER returned to say it was her understanding that                
federal law prohibited anyone under felony indictment from                     
purchasing or possessing a firearm. She stated that with the                   
current definition of mental illness there would be no prohibition             
against a person carrying a weapon. She added that under the law               
two class A misdemeanors in a six-year period would disallow a                 
person from being eligible for a concealed carry permit. She said              
it was a conscious decision by the bill sponsor to omit a                      
prohibition on carrying concealed weapons on private property and              
they would be opposed to an amendment expanding a prohibition to               
private property.                                                              
                                                                               
SENATOR MILLER introduced the committee substitute and Ms. Parker              
explained the changes as a suggestion from the bill drafter,                   
changing local to municipal and clarifying the type of law                     
enforcement administrative officers to whom the bill would apply.              
                                                                               
SENATOR DUNCAN reminded the committee of his amendment but held his            
motion at this time.                                                           
                                                                               
SENATOR WARD moved the adoption of CSSB 214(STA). He stated perhaps            
he and Senator Duncan could work jointly on other issues proposed              
in another piece of legislation.                                               
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE asked if the amendment was drafted correctly to the             
bill. He agreed that section seven of the amendment regarding                  
mental health should be addressed, due to Mr. Abel's testimony.                
                                                                               
SENATOR GREEN repeated that she would like to have people deal with            
other concerns in separate legislation. She said this bill is to               
make a correction to the previous bill as it relates to peace                  
officers.                                                                      
                                                                               
SENATOR WARD offered his belief that adjudication is necessary                 
before a person's right to bear arms is taken away. He would like              
better definition of this issue.                                               
                                                                               
SENATOR DUNCAN expressed to the committee the seriousness of his               
amendment and believed the testimony of the experts in law                     
enforcement and domestic violence should be addressed immediately.             
He feared if they were not, they may never reach discussion again.             
He said he would like clarification on the federal law regarding               
purchase or purchase and possession of firearms and believes the               
committee should err on the side of safety. He expressed confidence            
in the people working with victims of domestic violence and                    
validated their concerns regarding domestic violence facilities. He            
recounted that there had been lengthy discussion regarding the                 
difference between carrying openly and carrying concealed and in               
his view it was a major difference. He asked the committee to                  
divide the amendment into four parts: part one being subsection 7              
regarding mental illness; part two regarding a person charged with             
a felony; part three dealing with the crimes of domestic violence              
and stalking and the fourth part dealing with the facilities                   
providing services to victims of domestic violence. He found these             
four topics important enough to merit separate rulings by the                  
committee. He moved the division of the amendment.                             
                                                                               
SENATOR WARD objected, roll was taken and the motion failed four to            
one.                                                                           
                                                                               
SENATOR DUNCAN appreciated the vote on division of the amendment               
and renewed his motion to move the entire amendment.                           
                                                                               
SENATOR MACKIE said he would vote no on the amendment, agreeing                
with Senator Duncan on some points but saying it was crucial to                
address the law enforcement problem immediately.                               
                                                                               
Roll was taken and the amendment failed four to one.                           
                                                                               
SENATOR WARD moved the bill be passed out of committee with                    
individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note.                   
Without objection, the bill was moved.                                         

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